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HdMechanical View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 1:37pm
Give ya a little insight to my MindSet.............Afterall 80% of my ramblings are becoming reality

http://trentontalk.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12194
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 2:08pm
posted - 06/21/2009 :  13:18:03  Show Profile  Email Poster  Edit Topic  Send Poff a Yahoo! Message Send Poff a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The endless debt, credit and bubbles of the last 15 years are finally reaching critical mass. It is no longer a matter of whether we have an economic collapse. No it is a matter of the scope and the intensity. It is not coming, it is here........... 

When television stations started showing the satellite pictures of a major storm , only then did the naysayers start to prepare. The MSM controls the ppl too busy to research or dig out the truth. Since television is telling us fantasies about green shoots, economic recovery etc. etc. the naysayers, as evidenced by the rising consumer confidence numbers, are buying into the..................... bull. 

The first thing to understand that this debt soaked economy, this leaning tower of endless debt is finished. One of the things you have to remember is the capacity to issue debt, by government at all levels; the capacity to borrow debt, by consumers, corporations et al, is done, ended , destroyed. We are on a cash and carry basis now. Some have been for the last couple years now. For an economy that is based upon endless credit and debt, regardless of the capacity to service that debt, or pay it back in plainer terms, this is death to those who rely on consumers . They can issue all the bailouts they want and change all the credit card terms to help out the overtaxed and weary consumer, but what about the ones who defaulted, ended up having bad credit scores which in turn limits their ability to buy major purchases , rent a apartment , or even purchase insurance, alot of purchases the consumer does daily is based on your credit score, even opening a bank account, some banks will not even open an account for those with lingering judgements or defaulted accounts ......... Also with the current job market , more and more employers are referencing credit reports as a tool for hiring ..............If there is no help for them , where will they turn...............??? Think on that one , regardless of the reasons it has happened . It has happened to enough of them to cause this meltdown, who knows what the numbers are but they are enough to affect you............

Headlines tell us that credit card problems are on the rise, one in nine Americans are now on food stamps, record numbers are on unemployment insurance. Recent headlines tell us that government, at all levels, are being bled dry by declining tax revenues. Revenues that many states, counties and cities are trying to replace with a massive wave of tax increases, sin taxes, Middletown even recently received a grant to hire a commerical code enforcer for six months, When was the last you seen the Bulter county sheriff dept. actively patrolling for traffic stops.........??? How many have recieved code enforcement letters recently? The revenue base has to increase and they are using every tool available to suck it out of the taxpayer..............Not only are one in nine Americans on food stamps ...........One in ten are in jail or prison, which is the same as being on food stamps the taxpayer pays for them also.........

Some may ask how does code enforcement increase revenues..... They always give you time to repair and no fine as long as the repair is done........?? Well you spent money , either doing it yourself or hiring someone which in turn netted the government some tax money and helps keep the property value up which in turn allows for more property tax to be paid.............A dollar a year to most ppl does mean much, but a dollar per property bill through the county could mean $$$$ millions $$$$ .........If everyone is forced to buy a gallon of gas to mow their lawns then the local government gets their share of a tax per gallon........Once again a dime doesn't mean much to us, but to a entity that relys on that dime a billion times it means alot ........

Most people really don't know the power they hold............. 

July 1st, the beginning of fiscal year 2010, the local governments will start to implode at state, city and county level. California, it is said, leads the nation. The California treasurer says they will run out of money in 50 days, around July 30th or so. One month into the new fiscal year of 2010 California is going to crash and burn, when they end welfare and unemployment payments then Los Angeles will start to resemble a war zone......In a sense this is good news for us , we will have a true gauge of the coming wave , the MSM will not be able to hide it and when you see it live you won't be able to doubt it and then the choices you make are yours alone...................

I have been watching for a late Sept. or early Fall crisis,......I believe then the general naysayers will start to see the true state of our economy. 

Also we are starting to see the commerical real estate spiral down...............

When the gas starts rising steadily within 6 months we will see the true state of the country..........we are into a steady rise now for the last month............I believe my timeline is holding tight....

Just watch as the local governments start falling , cutting back and jails start closing.........The small cities, then the counties, PD and FD will start merging...........Insurance will cease to cover vacant buildings (commerical and residential)............arson will increase on repo or vacant buildings...

Watch your local governments , they are the indicators . 

They may be getting grants to help, but watch how they are reducing basic services and imposing sin taxes or fees like they never have before.........


I believe the commerical real estate will be the straw that breaks the system...

I believe the housing acts and urban development programs like fannie mae and others were designed to increase local tax bases, property is mostly worthless to those entities who rely on property taxes unless the land is improved upon..........More housing means more taxes regardless of whether in foreclosure or not, the property taxes still must be paid...

I believe we have been in turmoil for several years and the many governmental programs just forestalled the meltdown......In a sense we have been working under a government stimlus package for about 15 years.

Once the commerical buildings start getting out of hand like the residental market and many are bankrupt or in foreclosure............You will see the banking industry start fighting with the local governments over the property taxes ( I think they might even pass laws allowing property in foreclosure to offset property taxes and zoning violation fines) ..........Low income tax revnues coupled with no property tax base will force local governments into survival mode...Even some schools rely on property taxes.......
The out of control banking system and the out of control government will then go head to head...........and your local government will shutdown.....

Dig in and watch ,have plenty of popcorn and ammo...

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HdMechanical View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 2:15pm
Should you be bored enough to read the rest of the above thread............Linking to TrentonTalk is easier then copy and pasting the whole thread....

http://trentontalk.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6856&whichpage=1
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HdMechanical View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 4:48pm
If SNAP is in-fluxing $80 million per year into Butler County via 3800 eligible persons....And there are 45 million persons in the program nationwide...Just exactly where is this money coming from?   7% in the USA are receiving those benefits, approx 2 million in Ohio. Not only are they receiving funds which could be used elsewhere, They are not contributing to the local tax base at the desired rate. If any thing keeping the salaries and jobs up on your city employees could possibly help stimulate and maintain the local economy...Cut the salaries or jobs of your public sector and watch another class start cutting corner and not spending money, ....See the vicious circle..

The worse that you can do is keep contributing to the circle by cutting jobs.......... Cutting costs and cutting jobs are two different things. 
 
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tomahawk35 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomahawk35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 11 2013 at 12:00am
Governments in black
Citzen living in cardboard boxes
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HdMechanical View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 14 2013 at 2:18pm
Typical response from KeyBoard Commandos..............Nothing. You gripe , whine, cry, whatever you want to call it and not one of ya can articulate a good reason with proof or documentation of why one person is better than another. There is no magic mayor, city manager or council member that will change the past mistakes. It takes a group effort to clean up a mess which has gotta out of hand, sure you gripe and want heads to roll........But yet you offer no viable solutions, because most do not understand the workings of how your tax base and local governments are used and funded. You have to understand "why" to truly fix a problem or the only thing you will accomplish is to react and fight the symptoms, wasting money.

Middletown has took some major hits to the tax revenue in the last few years. I bet most on here who are quick to judge , cannot even name the major players which are gone....Middletown also has too many "tax exempt" properties. They need to lean toward infrastructure which the people are using.... 
 

Criticizing is easy; solutions are hard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 14 2013 at 3:29pm
[QUOTE=HdMechanical] Typical response from KeyBoard Commandos..............Nothing. You gripe , whine, cry, whatever you want to call it and not one of ya can articulate a good reason with proof or documentation of why one person is better than another. There is no magic mayor, city manager or council member that will change the past mistakes. It takes a group effort to clean up a mess which has gotta out of hand, sure you gripe and want heads to roll........But yet you offer no viable solutions, because most do not understand the workings of how your tax base and local governments are used and funded. You have to understand "why" to truly fix a problem or the only thing you will accomplish is to react and fight the symptoms, wasting money.

Middletown has took some major hits to the tax revenue in the last few years. I bet most on here who are quick to judge , cannot even name the major players which are gone....Middletown also has too many "tax exempt" properties. They need to lean toward infrastructure which the people are using.... 
 


Ok HD, I'll offer some comments here to your post......let's take it step by step....

"Nothing. You gripe , whine, cry, whatever you want to call it and not one of ya can articulate a good reason with proof or documentation of why one person is better than another"

FOR STARTERS, NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND YOUR COMMENT ON ONE PERSON BEING BETTER THAN ANOTHER.

"There is no magic mayor, city manager or council member that will change the past mistakes"

ACTUALLY, THE CURRENT "MAGIC" MAYOR, CITY MANAGER AND COUNCIL ARE NOT TRYING TO CHANGE THE PAST MISTAKES. RATHER, THEY ARE MERELY ADDING TO THE LIST OF PAST MISTAKES WITH THEIR OWN CONTRIBUTIONS IN GUIDING THIS CITY ON THE WRONG PATH TO CORRECT IT. IMO, THEY HAVE ACTUALLY ADDED TO THE POOR DECISIONS OF THE PAST 4 DECADES HERE. JUST PUTTING THEIR OWN BRAND ON A TOWN WITH A BAD REPUTATION, NO JOB GROWTH, LOW-INCOME THEME, QUESTIONABLE INTERNAL OPERATIONS WITHIN THE CITY GOVERNMENT, INCLUSIVE FOR A SMALL CONTINGENT WHILE BEING EXCLUSIVE FOR THE MAJORITY LIVING HERE, AND, IN, GENERAL, A SHELL OF THE TOWN IT ONCE WAS WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL IN THE 60'S.

"It takes a group effort to clean up a mess which has gotta out of hand"

YES, AGREE, IT DOES TAKE A GROUP EFFORT AND WE "GRIPERS" WOULD LOVE TO PARTICIPATE AND OFFER OUR SOLUTIONS TO THE FOLKS IN DECISION-MAKING POSITIONS, BUT WE ARE NOT LISTENED TO. WE ARE IGNORED WHEN WE TRY TO TALK TO THEM DURING CITIZENS COMMENTS IN COUNCIL MEETINGS. FURTHERMORE, AND AN IMPORTANT ISSUE......OTHER THAN JOSH LAUBACH, WHO ON COUNCIL HAS HAD A COMMUNITY MEETING WHERE THE PEOPLE GET TO INTERACT AND ASK QUESTIONS AND OFFER IDEAS WITH THEIR COUNCILPEOPLE? DID MORT, PICARD OR THE TWO MULLIGANS OFFER ANY OPPORTUNITIES FOR US TO MEET WITH THEM AND TALK? NOPE. NOT ONE MEETING SINCE OLD LARRY MULLIGAN SAT BEHIND THAT COUNCIL DESK. HE IS NOT INTERESTED IN HEARING FROM US. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY WE HOLD PEOPLE LIKE THAT WITH DISDAIN? EVEN A SNAKE BITES BACK IF YOU STEP ON IT ONCE TOO OFTEN. HE IGNORES US. WE REACT.

"But yet you offer no viable solutions, because most do not understand the workings of how your tax base and local governments are used and funded. You have to understand "why" to truly fix a problem or the only thing you will accomplish is to react and fight the symptoms, wasting money."

BUT WE DO KNOW HOW THIS GOVERNMENT WORKS AND HOW IT IS FUNDED. AS EVIDENCE, I OFFER PAST POSTS FROM VERY INFORMED PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIVED IN THIS CITY FOR DECADES.....OR ALL OF THEIR LIVES AND HAVE SEEN THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY. WE HAVE OFFERED SOLUTIONS.....ONES BASED ON FACTS, RESEARCH AND LOGIC.....TO NO AVAIL. THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAR US Hd. OH, AND WE ARE TOTALLY AWARE OF THE MONEY WASTED IN THIS CITY, NOT TO MENTION THE SHIFTING OF FUNDS FROM ONE SOURCE TO ANOTHER TO "SUDDENLY" FIND MONETARY RESOURCES TO ACCOMPLISH THEIR LITTLE PET PROJECTS WHILE CLAIMING TO BE CASH STRAPPED AS GILLELAND HAS DONE IN THE PAST.

"Middletown has took some major hits to the tax revenue in the last few years"

YOU DON'T HAVE TO TELL ANY OF US. SOME OF US WERE HERE IN THE 50'S AND 60'S WHEN THE PAPER MILLS AND ARMCO WAS GOING STRONG. WHEN ARMCO HAD 9000 EMPLOYEES AND HAD A HAND IN MOST EVERYTHING GOING ON IN THE CITY. SOME OF US REMEMBER A VERY VIBRANT DOWNTOWN SO FULL OF PEOPLE ON A SATURDAY YOU HAD TO WALK IN THE STREET BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH ROOM ON THE SIDEWALKS. I WAS ON HAND WHEN MUM WAS BEING BUILT HAVING A SUMMER JOB PLACING DESKS IN LOGAN JOHNSON HALL AND GARDNER-HARVEY LIBRARY. THE TOWN WAS ALIVE BACK THEN......SO MUCH MORE HEALTHY THAN NOW. LAST FEW YEARS???? TRY THE LAST 4 DECADES.

"I bet most on here who are quick to judge , cannot even name the major players which are gone."

OH, HOW ABOUT BILL DONHAM. HOW ABOUT RON OLSEN. HOW ABOUT BILL BECKER AND FRED "I HELPED PUT IN THE CITY CENTRE MALL" SENNETT AND HIS OTHER 70'S COUNCIL MEMBERS. HOW ABOUT THE CREW OF CITY COMMISSIONERS THAT SCREWED UP LAKE MIDDLETOWN AND BICENTENNIAL COMMONS AND COST THE CITY $350,000 IN FINES FROM THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS FOR ILLEGALLY REMOVING THE DAM AND RELEASING SILT OUT IN THE RIVER? ON THE GOOD SIDE, HOW ABOUT BILL KLOSTERMAN, THE CITY ENGINEER, WHO HAD ALL THE BOULEVARD SYSTEMS PUT IN TO MAKE GETTING AROUND TOWN MUCH EASIER? GOOD CITY MANAGER BACK THEN. GOOD DECISIONS BENEFITTING ALL CITIZENS, NOT A SELECT FEW BACK THEN TOO.

AND HERE'S ONE FOR THE FUTURE FOR YA....HOW ABOUT THE CURRENT CITY COUNCIL. MEMBERS LIKE LARRY MULLIGAN, THE OTHER MULLIGAN, DAN PICARD, ANN MORT, ANITA SCOTT-JONES AND, AT TIMES, JOSH LAUBACH, WHO KEPT APPROVING MILLIONS TO THROW INTO A DOWNTOWN THAT WILL PROBABLY NEVER REACH THE PINNACLE OF HEIGHT THEY EXPECT IT TO. THE GIVAWAYS OF TAXPAYER MONEY. THE PROPERTY PURCHASES WITH TAXPAYER MONEY. THE FAVORITISM, THE NEGLECT OF 90% OF THE CITY AT THE EXPENSE OF THE DOWNTOWN DREAM THEY ALL HAVE. WHY? THIS WILL JOIN THE FAILURE LIST IN YEARS TO COME

IT IS ALL ABOUT BEING MIS-FOCUSED AND NOT HAVING A CLUE WHAT THIS TOWN NEEDS NOR WHAT THE PEOPLE ARE ALL ABOUT. THE PEOPLE IN THE CITY BUILDING AND SITTING BEHIND THE COUNCIL DESK ARE JUST SIMPLY OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY AS TO THE CITY'S SITUATION. WE ARE CASH STRAPPED AND SO DESPERATE FOR REVENUE THAT THE CITY LEADERS INVITED SECTION 8/LOW INCOME TO TOWN TO GAIN HUD MONEY RATHER THAN TO DO IT THROUGH NEW JOBS AND CORPORATE TAXES. FOR ANY FAMILY (OR CITY) BUDGET, THAT MEANS YOU ELIMINATE THE EXTRAS AND FOCUS ON THE BASICS FOR NOW....UNTIL YOU CAN BUILD UP THE REVENUES......THEN YOU START ADDING ICING TO THE CAKE...SLOWLY, BUT YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE THE BASICS FIRST...IE-WATER, SEWER, DECENT ROADS, POLICE, FIRE. SAFETY FOR THE PEOPLE. PAY THE NECESSARY CITY BILLS AND PLACE WHATEVER REMAINS IN A FUND FOR CITY EMERGENCIES. AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN SENDING IT TO DREAMLAND PET PROJECTS EITHER!

MY OFFERING.

I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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HdMechanical View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 15 2013 at 1:06pm
Interesting....One might say, hopefully we can continue this later...........I have become busy at work and one must get it, while it is there....Hopefully a solution will crop up before I return, but we all know different even though we have conflicting views..
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tomahawk35 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomahawk35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 15 2013 at 11:58pm
Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:

Typical response from KeyBoard Commandos..............Nothing. You gripe , whine, cry, whatever you want to call it and not one of ya can articulate a good reason with proof or documentation of why one person is better than another. There is no magic mayor, city manager or council member that will change the past mistakes. It takes a group effort to clean up a mess which has gotta out of hand, sure you gripe and want heads to roll........But yet you offer no viable solutions, because most do not understand the workings of how your tax base and local governments are used and funded. You have to understand "why" to truly fix a problem or the only thing you will accomplish is to react and fight the symptoms, wasting money.

Middletown has took some major hits to the tax revenue in the last few years. I bet most on here who are quick to judge , cannot even name the major players which are gone....Middletown also has too many "tax exempt" properties. They need to lean toward infrastructure which the people are using.... 
 

Criticizing is easy; solutions are hard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomahawk35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 16 2013 at 12:35am

Please don't try to insult people with comments like keyboard commados like you are all knowledgeable about every aspect  of the workings of the government.  I have worked for the government for over 20 yrs. The real truth is the government takes care of its own and doesn't care about the rest of us no matter what they say, a spade is a spade. If there is nothing to gain then you are out of luck and as far as being a solution good luck. I see this every day at work and that's the way it was  when I started and it will be like that way after I leave this world.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 16 2013 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by tomahawk35 tomahawk35 wrote:

Please don't try to insult people with comments like keyboard commados like you are all knowledgeable about every aspect  of the workings of the government.  I have worked for the government for over 20 yrs. The real truth is the government takes care of its own and doesn't care about the rest of us no matter what they say, a spade is a spade. If there is nothing to gain then you are out of luck and as far as being a solution good luck. I see this every day at work and that's the way it was  when I started and it will be like that way after I leave this world.


Interesting......But to be honest , I really never said much about knowing the workings of the government, I am bringing to light the funding of the government entities and how it affects people, public or private....We all know, they are about self-preservation regardless of outcome..

People really do not understand the reasoning behind some government decisions.............

We have the ability to go 100% solar power,  100% recycled waste water at each residence, each vehicle has the ability to run on NG or propane........Any of those options blur the line of traditional funding for governments,  Less consumer spending  equals less taxbase funding....

Imagine never having another water bill or electric bill, imagine the uproar of your local government when your slash those costs.........No more revenue from those services.

Some communities that have given hospitals tax exempt property status to build in their locale are now considering adding a tax per bed . Same for hope houses and other non-profits...

Middletown must create jobs, regardless of whether min wage or above..........This assures that the support services do not leave, IE: doctors, lawyers, realtors, eateries, dealerships, stores, etc.....

Some companies,  I included have gambled on Middletown's future to prosper we have used the economy turndown to better our infrastructure and position ourselves for the upswing.....Just hope the wait isn't much longerCry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 17 2013 at 10:41am
Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:

The only thing left to stop feeding the beast. I agree, thus the reason I vote against school levies. One would hope they would try different avenues to secure funding......

Mr. Poff;

Concerning your above quote and just out of curiosity...

Who is going to feed the education beast if the citizens whose children use the education system Do Not?

Do you have a source that will provide $40M in School Building funds if the citizens agree to pay the $55M balance on $95M?  Personally I know of No One that will cough up $40M for the city of Middletown to build it's schools.  No person or Organization.

It makes little sense to me to throw away $40M of State Funds thus making the Middletown Citizens responsible for the total $95M if and when they come to their senses and decide they need new schools.

PacmanCool




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 17 2013 at 11:49am
Hd Mechanical:

"Middletown must create jobs, regardless of whether min wage or above"

Disagree with "regardless of whether min wage or above" statement....

Middletown has a disproportionate number of min wage jobs now. Too many fast food/ low wage industrial park/ cashier/ waitress/ mini-mart jobs and not enough medical/ high tech industrial/ "professional" level paying jobs offered here. That's why many, including myself, leave town each day and get on I-75 to go out of town to work. Nothing to chose from here that will provide a decent standard of living.
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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"It makes little sense to me to throw away $40M of State Funds thus making the Middletown Citizens responsible for the total $95M if and when they come to their senses and decide they need new schools.

Pacman"

Sorry Pac. I'm on the other side of the fence when talking about school support. Not logical to throw away more taxpayer money through a bond levy to build more new schools for this district when we haven't seen much improvement from the new elementary, 45 million dollar bond levy. The school people must show that the investment made years ago was worth it before we give them more of our money. To date, hasn't happened IMO.

The logic that we must approve more money because now is our only chance to "put in 40 million to get 55 million from the state" seems to be the reason of choice for people like Ms. Andrew, the levy supporters and yourself. To me, it sounds like that is the only reason to approve the levy, rather than have this middle school be a benefit to the district AS TO IMPROVING OPERATIONS, IMPROVING THE OVERALL PERFORMANCE OR BENEFITING THE COMMUNITY. The levy supporters can't use that reasoning because it hasn't happened as yet and they know it. It appears the overwhelming reason to support the levy, suggested by the pro-levy people, is that we must approve this bond levy just because the state is offering to pay for more than half, and if we don't use it we lose it. Sounds desperate to me. IMO, THAT is a misdirected reason and doesn't attack the real reasons for the stagnated performance. New schools DO NOT NECESSARILY MEAN A BETTER DISTRICT NOR RESULTS AND HAS BEEN PROVEN WITH THE NEW ELEMENTARY SCHOOL REPORT CARD. They have not made enough progress to have made the investment seem worth it. JMO
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 17 2013 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by Pacman Pacman wrote:

Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:

The only thing left to stop feeding the beast. I agree, thus the reason I vote against school levies. One would hope they would try different avenues to secure funding......

Mr. Poff;

Concerning your above quote and just out of curiosity...

Who is going to feed the education beast if the citizens whose children use the education system Do Not?

Do you have a source that will provide $40M in School Building funds if the citizens agree to pay the $55M balance on $95M?  Personally I know of No One that will cough up $40M for the city of Middletown to build it's schools.  No person or Organization.

It makes little sense to me to throw away $40M of State Funds thus making the Middletown Citizens responsible for the total $95M if and when they come to their senses and decide they need new schools.

PacmanCool





Personally , I no longer debate school levies I just vote "No"......

The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us , and continue to hold their hands out while doing nothing to cut costs.

Today's technology is there to dramatically cut public school costs.....Even the schools today are using "YouTube Videos"  to teach math.

I have home schooled 5 children, I have had my children in the public school....I have 3 computers on the way here Thursday from ECOT ....  
 
Our plan established a strong foundation in reading and math during early childhood home school and let them finish up in the public school system if they wanted to.  

There are Pros and Cons to both choices...

Al I can say .........If you have children, whichever choice you make do not allow them to shortcut reading and math skills.. 4 hrs a week strengthening those skills is a small investment in your child's future and if you leave their education to someone else you have no one else to blame but YOU if they fail.

But back on topic............

Who is going to feed the education beast if the citizens whose children use the education system Do Not?

Your ^^^^^^^^ quote above is the the problem in a nutshell, do you realize the bulk of the children who use the education system is not supported by the parents of those children. Only property owners supply the funding for schools. Businesses and personal thru property tax and some screwed up kilowatt tax on electric companies. 

I favor additional taxes , provided everyone pays the same...I would rather property taxes be abolished and taxes placed on consumables across the board.....Electric use, water use , Internet, phone, garbage ETC.....Oh did you know there is a $1 per tire tax on tire sold in Ohio......

The school funding or really any government funding must be applied across the board to be effective long term.....Payroll taxes are fine if everyone is working, the loss of local tax thru 1099 workers and cash/undertable workers is tremendous.   property tax if everyone owned property. 


Sales and use tax is the closest I believe we will ever come to having consistent funding for any public entity. Even if there is no jobs, people still use certain services. Even if they move in with a relative due to hardship the use of those services increase in the household , not much but better than nothing as now. Plus we catch those off the grid workers for cash in that net...

      





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 17 2013 at 11:30pm
The cost to educate young people across the state is significant and those costs continue to rise. More Ohio tax dollars are spent for primary and secondary education than for any other single governmental function. The complexities of school finance practically require that taxpayers have the equivalent of a finance degree in order to understand how the money is spent. While it is increasingly difficult to understand the complexities of how schools within the state of Ohio are funded, it is also increasingly critical that taxpayers understand these issues in order to be informed voters. 

How are Schools Funded in Ohio? 

  • Local Support
    The property tax is the predominant method communities use to raise additional revenues in Ohio. The property tax comes in two forms:
    • Real property tax- This is a tax levied on land and buildings located within the school district. Private individuals, businesses and public utilities that own land and buildings pay this tax.
    • Tangible personal property - This is a tax levied on furniture, fixtures, machinery, equipment and inventory owned by business. Key factors used in calculating property tax bills are the assessed valuation of property and the millage rate. The county auditor of each county in the state had the responsibility of appraising all taxable real property once every six years to determine the values. Every third year after each reappraisal another form of reappraisal, called an update, is conducted. Property tax bills are calculated on the assessed value of property, which equals 35 percent of the Fiscal Officer's appraised value. For instance, a home with an appraised value of $100,000 will be taxed on a value of $35,000.
  • Mills
    Local Property tax rates are always computed in mills. One mill costs the property owner $1.00 for every $1,000 of assessed valuation each year. In our example, the $100,000 will produce $35 in tax revenue for each mill. 

    In Ohio, millage is referred to as "inside" millage and "outside" millage. Inside millage is the millage provided by the Constitution of the State of Ohio and is levied without the vote of the people as established very early in the State's history. The inside millage rate is limited to ten mills in each political subdivision. Public schools, cities, counties and other local governments are allocated a portion of the ten inside mills. The Rocky River School District's portion is 4.57 mills. Outside millage is the millage voted in by the public. 

    There are two major forms of tax credits property owners receive.
    • The first is a 12.5 percent millage rollback. With this credit, a homeowner receives a credit of 12.5% on the total gross property tax amount due. In our example, the property owner would receive a credit of $4.38 ($35 x .125).
    • The net tax bill would be $30.62. The State of Ohio reimburses the amount of this credit back to all the taxing authorities, so they end up collecting the full amount of the levy.
  • HB 920 - The Controlling Factor
    Another key tax credit is known as House Bill 920, which went into effect in 1976. This credit effectively freezes all voted real property millage at the dollar amount collected the first year the millage went into effect. As property values rise through reappraisals, the outside millage rate is commonly referred to as "effective" millage. The inside mills are not affected by the House Bill 920 credit, so a small amount of additional revenue is gained as property values increase.
  • State Support
    STate Foundation - The State of Ohio provides funding to school districts by way of a foundation formula. The foundation formula method of funding Basic Aid takes into account the ability of school districts to raise taxes locally as well as a state determined minimum amount necessary per student to provide an adequate education. The formula is designed to provide a higher level of assistance to school districts with low property wealth relative to districts with higher property wealth.

Why Do Schools Keep Asking for More Money? 

The short answer to this question is that while most of the revenues available to schools are fixed and inflexible, the cost of education continually rises. Many of the rising costs are out of the control of local school boards. 

As a consumer of goods, school districts encounter inflation in most goods and services purchased. In addition to inflation, legal requirements, unfounded mandates and expanded services expected by communities add to increased operating costs of school districts. There are numerous legislated enactments, which have had significant cost implications to public schools in Ohio. For example, Ohio law requires bus transportation for all students in grades K-8 who reside more than two miles from school and public schools must provide the same level of transportation service to nonpublic students as they provide to their own students. Special education services must be provided for all children in the district who qualify under state and federal guidelines, regardless of cost. School Districts must employ at least 1 classroom teacher for every 24 pupils grades K-4. In addition, Ohio law prohibits reduction in staff because of economic hardship. As service organizations, most dollars in school district budgets are used for personnel, typically about 80%. Ohio collective bargaining laws require school boards to negotiate. Salary and benefit levels with employee groups. Balancing fairness to employees, keeping pace with the market in order to attract good people, and accomplishing this with limited resources is a challenge for all school boards. 

How Do Schools Raise Additional Funds? 

The property tax is the main funding mechanism available to school districts to increase revenue. State law makes a distinction between operating funds and capital improvement funds. Proceeds from an operating levy can be used for any legal expenditure by a board of education. Most of the funds derived from an operating of running a school district, such as salaries and benefits for personnel, textbooks, classroom supplies, utilities and repairs. Following are the types of operating levies:

  • Regular operating levy for current expenses - A millage rate is submitted to the voters for approval, not a dollar amount. The millage rate will be adjusted as property values change pursuant to HB 920. This levy can be voted in for one to five years or for a continuing period of time.
  • Emergency Levy - This type of levy is submitted to the voters as a dollar amount. For example, "The emergency levy will raise $1,000,000 per year." An emergency levy can only be voted in for a period of time from one to five years, and expires after the time has elapsed unless renewed by a vote of the public.
  • Incremental Levy - This can be either in terms of millage incremental or dollar incremental. In these instances, millage rates or dollar levies are phased in over a numbers of years up to five. Millage incremental levies can be for a continuing period of time or one to ten years in duration. Dollar incremental levies can have a duration of one to ten years.
  • Capital involvements can be funded in two forms - Permanents improvement levies and bond issues. All funds received by school districts from permanent improvement levies and bond issues must, by law, be used for the purposes intended and cannot be used for operating expenses of the districts.
  • Replacement Levy - A replacement levy can replace all or a portion of an expiring levy. It is used when the effective rate had been lowered and can restore the rate of the tax to its original rate, thus generating increased dollars. A replacement levy can raise more revenue than the levy it replaces because the original levy may have been through one or more reassessment. With each reassessment, if the value of real property in the school district had increased due to inflation, the H.B. 920 tax credit factor will have been applied to the voted levy, reducing the effective mills.
  • Permanent Improvement Levy - Permanent improvement levies for specific projects can last from one to five years. Permanent improvement levies for general on-going permanent improvements can be levied for a continuing period of time.
  • Bond Issue - A bond issue is a tax, the proceeds of which can only be used to pay bonds and noted issued by school districts for the purposes of permanent improvements. Bond issues are normally used for building new or additions to buildings. However, proceeds of a bond issue cannot be used for operational costs of the new facility (ies). This is often a source of misunderstanding. People remembering a bond issue was passed for a new building can't understand why "the district built a new building without having the money to operate it." Many times an operating levy must also be passed to help pay for the operational costs when the new building was necessitated by increased enrollment.

Ohio Lottery 

Many people believe that proceeds from the Ohio Lottery provide schools in the state with substantial revenue each year. In fact, lottery proceeds make up only a small portion of the state's total education dollars. For a typical district in Ohio, the legislature asserts that the lottery pays between 6% and 8% of their expenses. However, the lottery had actually had a negative impact on school funding in the state. In 1975, Ohio put almost 44.5% of every state budget dollar into education. In 1995, that amount had fallen to less than 32%. While lottery dollars were intended to supplement educational funding, they actually supplanted state funds, which were then diverted to other uses. Although lottery proceeds are an additional source of revenue for public schools, they constitute, only a small portion of the local school budget and in no way replace the need to ongoing local support. 

What Does All This Mean to County Taxpayers? 

While state legislators continue to wrestle with issues of equity and fairness in funding public education in Ohio, public schools continue to depend on the support of local taxpayers. There is no quick fix or easy solution coming from the state or federal level. Despite this, children continue to come through doors of our schools each day asking and deserving to be educated. We must press our elected representatives to find a more efficient way to fund education. Until the state creates a new system on funding schools, local taxpayers in Ohio will continue to shoulder the responsibility of providing quality education for our children.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 17 2013 at 11:38pm
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Hd Mechanical:

"Middletown must create jobs, regardless of whether min wage or above"

Disagree with "regardless of whether min wage or above" statement....

Middletown has a disproportionate number of min wage jobs now. Too many fast food/ low wage industrial park/ cashier/ waitress/ mini-mart jobs and not enough medical/ high tech industrial/ "professional" level paying jobs offered here. That's why many, including myself, leave town each day and get on I-75 to go out of town to work. Nothing to chose from here that will provide a decent standard of living.

I agree, I used to drive 56 miles one way.......... 

But to fund local services , any city payroll tax min or high wage is better then nothing....Just min wage jobs are easier to create. Remember that "nickle" , it feeds the beast, LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 2:39am
There is something to consider that is akin to an "unfunded mandate", and that is the $40 million dollars the state is dangling for the completion of our building program.  Along with this $40 million comes strict requirements for the new middle school and the remodeled high school that jacks the total cost up to an astronomical (at least in the view of some) $95 million dollars!  $55 million of this must come from the local taxpayers in the form of a new tax levy.
 
Given that the school district already owns all of the property involved, does anyone think that $95 million dollars is out of line to build a new middle school and to remodel the existing high school???
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 7:35am
"The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us"

THEN WHY ARE THE SCHOOLS STILL ALLOWED TO PLACE LEVIES ON THE BALLOT?

SOMETHING DOESN'T COMPUTE HERE.

I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 7:45am
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

"The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us"

THEN WHY ARE THE SCHOOLS STILL ALLOWED TO PLACE LEVIES ON THE BALLOT?

SOMETHING DOESN'T COMPUTE HERE.


It stands until another solution is found...............Keep giving them money and there is no reason for them to change.

Requires a complete overhaul of the taxing system, something no politician will even attempt ...Would be political suicide. 
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http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/03/25/15-years--no-school-funding-fix.html

Kasich says to expect his school-funding plan next year. While it’s designed to move more dollars into the classroom, he predicts it won’t make everyone happy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 7:56am
Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:



Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

"The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us"

THEN WHY ARE THE SCHOOLS STILL ALLOWED TO PLACE LEVIES ON THE BALLOT?

SOMETHING DOESN'T COMPUTE HERE.



It stands until another solution is found...............Keep giving them money and there is no reason for them to change.

Requires a complete overhaul of the taxing system, something no politician will even attempt ...Would be political suicide. 



SO THE CRITERIA FOR CONTINUING TO IGNORE THE DECREE OF UNCONSTITUTIONALITY AND THE BREAKING OF THE LAW IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER SOLUTION FOR NOW? BIZARRE REASONING AND LOGIC. ONCE IT WAS DETERMINED THAT THE FUNDING WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOLISHED. ISN'T THIS CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR, AND AS SUCH, THOSE RESPONSIBLE SHOULD BE CHARGED? EXACTLY HOW'S THAT WORK IN THIS CASE? ONCE IT WAS DECIDED, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENFORCED. NOT A GOOD ENOUGH REASON FOR THE POLITICAL SUICIDE RISK.
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 7:59am
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:



Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

"The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us"

THEN WHY ARE THE SCHOOLS STILL ALLOWED TO PLACE LEVIES ON THE BALLOT?

SOMETHING DOESN'T COMPUTE HERE.



It stands until another solution is found...............Keep giving them money and there is no reason for them to change.

Requires a complete overhaul of the taxing system, something no politician will even attempt ...Would be political suicide. 



SO THE CRITERIA FOR CONTINUING TO IGNORE THE DECREE OF UNCONSTITUTIONALITY AND THE BREAKING OF THE LAW IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER SOLUTION FOR NOW? BIZARRE REASONING AND LOGIC. ONCE IT WAS DETERMINED THAT THE FUNDING WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOLISHED. ISN'T THIS CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR, AND AS SUCH, THOSE RESPONSIBLE SHOULD BE CHARGED? EXACTLY HOW'S THAT WORK IN THIS CASE? ONCE IT WAS DECIDED, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENFORCED. NOT A GOOD ENOUGH REASON FOR THE POLITICAL SUICIDE RISK.

Your government at work.................
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 10:23am
Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:


Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:



Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

"The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us"

THEN WHY ARE THE SCHOOLS STILL ALLOWED TO PLACE LEVIES ON THE BALLOT?

SOMETHING DOESN'T COMPUTE HERE.



It stands until another solution is found...............Keep giving them money and there is no reason for them to change.

Requires a complete overhaul of the taxing system, something no politician will even attempt ...Would be political suicide. 



SO THE CRITERIA FOR CONTINUING TO IGNORE THE DECREE OF UNCONSTITUTIONALITY AND THE BREAKING OF THE LAW IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER SOLUTION FOR NOW? BIZARRE REASONING AND LOGIC. ONCE IT WAS DETERMINED THAT THE FUNDING WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOLISHED. ISN'T THIS CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR, AND AS SUCH, THOSE RESPONSIBLE SHOULD BE CHARGED? EXACTLY HOW'S THAT WORK IN THIS CASE? ONCE IT WAS DECIDED, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENFORCED. NOT A GOOD ENOUGH REASON FOR THE POLITICAL SUICIDE RISK.


Your government at work.................


PUBLIC HANGINGS ARE IN ORDER AT THE FED, STATE AND LOCAL LEVELS. I'LL BUY THE ROPE AT THE LOCAL TRACTOR SUPPLY IF SOMEONE HAS A FEW TREES ON THEIR PROPERTY WITH SOME STURDY BRANCHES. NEED A DATE, SEND OUT THE INVITATIONS, CALL THE VENDORS AND ORDER THE SOUNDTRACK OF HANG 'EM HIGH TO PLAY DURING THE CEREMONY ALSO.
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 10:49am
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:


Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:



Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

"The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us"

THEN WHY ARE THE SCHOOLS STILL ALLOWED TO PLACE LEVIES ON THE BALLOT?

SOMETHING DOESN'T COMPUTE HERE.



It stands until another solution is found...............Keep giving them money and there is no reason for them to change.

Requires a complete overhaul of the taxing system, something no politician will even attempt ...Would be political suicide. 



SO THE CRITERIA FOR CONTINUING TO IGNORE THE DECREE OF UNCONSTITUTIONALITY AND THE BREAKING OF THE LAW IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER SOLUTION FOR NOW? BIZARRE REASONING AND LOGIC. ONCE IT WAS DETERMINED THAT THE FUNDING WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOLISHED. ISN'T THIS CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR, AND AS SUCH, THOSE RESPONSIBLE SHOULD BE CHARGED? EXACTLY HOW'S THAT WORK IN THIS CASE? ONCE IT WAS DECIDED, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENFORCED. NOT A GOOD ENOUGH REASON FOR THE POLITICAL SUICIDE RISK.


Your government at work.................


PUBLIC HANGINGS ARE IN ORDER AT THE FED, STATE AND LOCAL LEVELS. I'LL BUY THE ROPE AT THE LOCAL TRACTOR SUPPLY IF SOMEONE HAS A FEW TREES ON THEIR PROPERTY WITH SOME STURDY BRANCHES. NEED A DATE, SEND OUT THE INVITATIONS, CALL THE VENDORS AND ORDER THE SOUNDTRACK OF HANG 'EM HIGH TO PLAY DURING THE CEREMONY ALSO.

You would have to go to a National forest to find enough trees..........

Let just hope some scared socialist wannabe doesn't misinterpret your post and you end up spread eagle, cavity searched and home ransacked.  I will not have anyone to chat with...Cry
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