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DACA Thoughts

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VietVet View Drop Down
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    Posted: Sep 05 2017 at 1:39pm
Ok, help me understand some things about this topic.

The DACA kids are illegals that have been allowed in this country on an amnesty type program originated by Obama.

There are several state attorneys generals that are threatening to sue the Trump Administration if they start proceedings to drop this program.

An article in the Journal states there will be some protesters at the office of Mike Turner to state their displeasure about the Trump decision to disband, in six months, the DACA program.

The kids have been in this country illegally for years, yet, because they are still illegal, one can assume they made no attempt to "get legal" and remain here as registered legal citizens. Why didn't they consider this a priority?

Ok, here goes......by logic

1. The kids are here illegally, aka, as in breaking the law. Their families have made no attempt to make them legal. One could draw a conclusion they may not be showing respect for the laws of the land. If they break the law coming into the country, what does that say about them respecting the laws of the land once they are here? Not a good start is it?

2. The attorneys generals in some states who want to sue are part of the LAW ENFORCEMENT legal system and therefore, suppose to enforce the law. It would appear that, like the protesters, they want to make a one time special allowance for these law breakers. How can you be in law enforcement and support people who break the law? I don't see this fervor for any other lawbreakers.

3. The protesters who want Trump to make special allowances for these kids apparently choose to let their feelings override their objections for those who break the law. If they want the DACA kids and families to be overlooked as it pertains to law enforcement, would they also be willing to overlook the thieves, drug dealers, armed robbers, and anyone else who chooses to break the law? I would think these same people who want to protect the DACA lawbreakers would be the same ones who would want the full sentence for any other lawbreaker. Hypocrites.

Why would anyone make an exception as to which law was broken? You can't pick and choose who should be forgiven simply based on your emotions and humanity. The law should be emotionally blind as to enforcement. Emotion like "give 'em a chance", "they're here for a better life" and "let's look the other way for the less fortunate" should not be a factor if the law is to be administered in an impartial manner. There are no "emotional levels" in interpreting the law but you can't convince these "do-gooder/save the world" protesters of that.


Anyone?
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fwolz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 06 2017 at 4:23pm
I understand your logic that a law was broken and therefore punishment must be served.  However, there are a few reasons this isn't simple cut and dry, they broke a law, give them the punishment.

First, we're talking about punishing children with an extremely significant and damaging penalty.  Usually, a minor who commits even a violent crime is given a slap on the wrist due to their incomplete brain development and lack of understanding of right and wrong.  At most, except in very rare occasions they are charged as an adult (and even then only for older children) the absolute worst a child is likely to get is Juvenile Detention until their 18th birthday.

Second, we're talking about punishing an individual who in many cases had no understanding, intent, knowledge or control of the offense.  Children were taken or sent across the border by their parents, the children had no clue what they were doing.  Infants were carried across, obviously with no clue of anything that was happening.  Even if they did understand, were they to run away from their parents or avoid breaking a law?

At this point, individuals have been in our country, bettering themselves by going to school, bettering our country and communities by working and paying taxes and creating a life for themselves with the only opportunities they had.  

There were no opportunities to "get legal".  Anyone who would walk into an immigration office and say, "I'm illegal, can I get legal", would be detained and deported.  Once you are in the country illegally, you can't then apply for citizenship or another resident status.  Even if you could do either of those things, you are still holding a child liable for not doing it?  When we offered them a way to make things right through DACA (though I assume you disagree with the action and the man who did it), they did just that, telling the government exactly who they were and where they were because we promised not to turn our backs on them.

Sending them back now would rip them from everything they worked for and send them to start all over in an unfamiliar environment with no resources.  Coupled with the dangers of many of those environments, in most cases, this would be a death sentence.  So, a death sentence for an action that occurred when they were children or infants that was carried out by someone else entirely?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 07 2017 at 6:33am
fwolz


Then the law needs to be rewritten. As of now, the DACA program states that the DACA candidates need to register and the program clearly states that their stay is TEMPORARY and never was written to be a permanent status situation.

As of now, if the Obama approved DACA program is administered correctly, the DACA people who have been here for years are in violation of the law. Whether they are kids or not has nothing to do with enforcing the law that Obama signed off on. Leave feelings out of it.

What we don't know is how many DACA program participants have actually applied for citizenship. What is also puzzling is that the older ones who have been in this country for years have had plenty of time to apply and have failed to do so, yet they claim that they want to be a part of this country. Why haven't they followed up on obtaining legal status?

Finally, your statement that these are children and we shouldn't punish them because they are kids is another emotional response and is out of the realm of enforcing the law......OBAMA's law. People's emotions and "big heart" feelings for these "less fortunate" immigrants is what is driving this resistance to deport people who came across the border breaking the law right out of the gate. Leave emotion out of it and look at what the law states.

You want it to be a non-debatable issue? Change the way the law is written.

Just like the abortion issue with the pro-lifers wanting no more abortions, I have suggested that if we close down all the abortion clinics, the pro-lifers should fund all the unwanted kids that will be the end result. They get what they claim they want.....but they have to pay to fund it. The pro-choice people shouldn't have to. Put the money where the mouth is.

Likewise, if all the bleeding heart, tear in the eyes, liberal do-gooders want to allow all the illegals into the country, let them pay for their health care, their school costs, their lawyer costs when they break the law and their fees to get legal. The anti-ILLEGAL immigrant people shouldn't have to pay for it. Again, put the money where the mouth is.

But.....just like the pro-lifers bitch when they are asked to fund the unwanted kids produced when abortion is eliminated, the pro-immigrants will do the same. The old "I want it my way but I don't want to pay to have it my way" thinking just doesn't get it. I don't want to shoulder the financial burden to take care of illegal kids and illegal immigrants just because the "Mother Theresa/save the world" liberals want it that way.

Compassion shouldn't be placed in front of the law. If it is, the country loses legal structure and exceptions to the law will eventually break down the rules that control proper behavior in society.
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buddhalite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 07 2017 at 2:19pm
FWIW - I'm a pro-lifer - and if you ask me, the people who are having all this care-free sex outside of marriage are responsible for their pro-creations - NOT the pro-lifers who simply believe in the dignity of life.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility?
"Success usually comes to those who are too busy to be looking for it."—Henry David Thoreau
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fwolz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 07 2017 at 6:50pm
It's not emotional to apply laws to children differently, that's the way our justice system works.  When I worked in retail everyone knew that a child who stole something (even a 17 year old) would not be punished in the same way as an adult would.  The criminals even knew that and often would put the items on their children to carry out.  Does that mean that a 10 year old should now get thrown in jail for years when they are just doing what their mom says to put stuff in their backpack?

This is hardly a special, emotional situation in which we're for the first time ever looking to consider not treating child offenders the same as adults.  It happens all the time with most laws in this country.

You seem to think that there was some way for them to get legal in the time they have been here which is simply impossible.  You cannot apply to become legal when you are already in this country illegally, whether you came here on your own free will or were forced.  Not to mention, like I said, these are children, and nobody should expect children to understand citizenship or immigration laws at a young age and hire a lawyer or walk into an immigration office on their own.

DACA was the only option they had and yes, it was meant to be temporary until a permanent solution was legislated by Congress.  We all know there hasn't been much coming from there in the past few years.  DACA included renewal procedures, so I'm not sure how you believe if administered correctly they'd be violating that law by being here still.

As far as paying for their healthcare, schools, etc, they've been paying for that themselves and contributing to the rest of us.  By registering with DACA for a work permit they pay income taxes just like the rest of us.  I don't have stats in front of me (I can if you'd like) but nearly all are working, not draining resources sitting on welfare like some are falsely spreading.  They are contributing to their communities and our country.  It's pretty obvious, if they weren't planning on working legally and paying taxes, why would they bother to register with DACA anyways?  They are not eligible to get food stamps, Medicaid or nearly every other form of welfare in this country.

And still, like I said, you're holding someone accountable for something they had absolutely no control over.  If you're riding a bus and the driver decides to make a u-turn in a posted, private parking lot, are you now guilty of trespassing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buddhalite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 07 2017 at 8:52pm
I believe it is emotional to apply laws differently to children - because the root of the change in stance is exactly that - EMOTIONAL!

The thought of a child being forced to the ground and handcuffed and thrown in a cell is, well, an emotion invoking thought.  We look at it differently because of the AGE of the subject - and any parent can tell you - that's emotion invoking.

I understand your point - but - stats show that (National Resource Council - not made up) illegals in this country cost the taxpayer $346B annually.  $4.3B is ER/Clinic visits alone - that doesn't include anything inpatient that hospitals end up eating - which estimates put at as much or more than the first number.

These folks didn't necessarily expect when they were children that they would be considered illegal - but they are.  That's just the plain fact - no emotion needed or implied.  It may not be their choosing - but so what.  Congress needs to get off their backsides and hash this out - and codify it.  I haven't an issue with a path to citizenship, but it's my personal experience, not one illegal I've ever known ACTUALLY wants citizenship. 

Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 08 2017 at 6:29am
It's ok fwolz, we agree to disagree. Nice discussion but has no agreement at the conclusion. I take it you are a Liberal Dem who supports the Obama type programs that support the "oppressed" and the people who come to this country "wanting a better life"......and so on and so forth.

Side note: During the Obama years, all focus was on the minorities and their wishes and needs (including illegal immigrants) and to hell with the predominately white majority in a democratic society. The majority was totally ignored by Obama and the Dem platform. (That's partly why Clinton lost the election....the majority was fed up with being ignored and stopped the Clinton/Obama agenda at the polls) Totally bassackwards focus by the Dems.

Terrific. Carry on with your message. Carry that torch. Protest for your cause. Seems everyone and anyone has a cause nowadays. Get you a group of people and protest something, anything. It is the popular thing to do and gets you notoriety. The amazing thing today is that people are wearing their hearts on their liberal sleeves and ignoring the fact that the people who they support are law breakers right out of the gate......but let's look the other way on that subject.

I stand firm on my convictions.......

Bottom line here......all who come here are illegal unless they have been documented and have entered by using the immigration system in place. If one does not exist to accommodate their needs, they shouldn't be here now should they. Until they are documented and confirmed as valid, whether an adult or a child, they are considered illegal and therefore breaking the law. Age is not a consideration at this point. As stated before, the Obama DACA law was never meant to have them stay permanently. Why can't people understand that? Many should have already been sent back based on the way the law was established. Why are they still here? If those who look the other way because they are children condone that, aren't they supporting the violation of this law as well? Why would you intentionally want to break this law? Answer: Because supporters of DACA are thinking with their EMOTIONS rather than reading what the law states. They want to make an exception to the rule. If there is an exception to this law, where does it end in making exceptions to any law? Do we change a law due to convenience at the time to get what we want? Or, do we accept the laws as written even though we disagree in certain cases? IMO, this is what seems to be happening in this DACA debate.

If you and those who think like you want the oppressed people to "live their dream", then get your liberal representatives to establish the system by which they attain legal status. Until you and your social program buddies do that, your down and out immigrants remain illegal violators of the law.
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fwolz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 09 2017 at 5:26am
It is a scientific fact that a child's brain has not fully developed and that children are often incapable of understanding and therefore being liable for right and wrong. This isn't emotion, it's science.

Again, this isn't a new exception to laws, children are always treated differently in our justice system.  If you can't acknowledge that, I'm not sure what to say.

VietVet- You asked why we should make an exception to this law for emotion; I guess given you think laws should be applied evenly regardless of age, can you tell me why we already give "exceptions" to laws to children and why there's never been any outrage about that?

Not to mention, an individual coerced or forced to commit a crime isn't liable.  It can't be expected that an infant or child, if they even understood, would have any opportunity to fight against parents carrying them or putting them in a vehicle to commit that crime.  Similarly, if you can't acknowledge that, I'm not sure what to say.

We're talking about DACA registrants here, not all illegal immigrants.  Bob, the idea that nobody you know who is illegal wants citizenship is clearly a limited, non-representative sample.  There would be no reason for 800,000 people to register for DACA and provide all of their information to the government which considers them illegal.  It doesn't take much to find plenty of interviews, protests involving actual DACA registrants, even a couple widely circulated high school valedictorian speeches declaring their desires to continue to contribute to this country.  These aren't the ones costing the healthcare system billions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 09 2017 at 10:24am
Ok, I believe for the third time, the law the way it was written by your liberal buddy Obama and passed under his administration in 2012 states that the DACA people were never guaranteed a permanent status and this approval to stay here was TEMPORARY. TEMPORARY fwotz as in NOT permanent. Additionally, they never tried to "get legal" for years. If they wanted to live here so badly, why didn't they make an effort to legalize themselves? Answer: Because they took their situation for granted and becoming legal wasn't important enough to make an effort.......and you bleeding hearts are buying their sympathy message.

fwotz:

"VietVet- You asked why we should make an exception to this law for emotion; I guess given you think laws should be applied evenly regardless of age, can you tell me why we already give "exceptions" to laws to children and why there's never been any outrage about that?"

C'mon fwotz, we don't give exceptions to laws for children. We all know there is a legal system for juveniles and one for adults. Those under 18 are liable for legal action. Of course law enforcement isn't going to come down hard on a kid who is not able to understand in this situation. but I'm not talking about them, I'm taking about those of high school age who are capable of understanding the consequences of their actions and whether they are legal or illegal. They are litigated in the juvenile system. We all know that. However, if they are illegal, no matter the age, they have broken the law AS IT IS WRITTEN and therefore, subject to deportation.

Why are we even discussing this? It is plain and simple. Again, for the fourth time, GET THE LAW CHANGED to include how to obtain legal status for EVERY AGE fwotz and we won't have this discussion.

You and your "make 'em all legal without going through the system of documentation" pals want to usurp the law and make a special humanitarian case for these DACA people. They need to obey the law just like any other "specialized" group. They are not special just because your heart "bleeds" for them and their situation.

Again, if we make an exception to the law for them, where do the exceptions stop? Like it or not fwolz, it is the law and you have no one to blame but your little buddy Obama, the Messiah for the Minorities and the Oppressed.

And now, to vent and change direction.......

Under Trump, the days of catering to the specialized people in our society, including illegal immigrants, are over. Obama is gone. It is a new way of thinking now that represents what the majority white middle class people want. The 8 years of Obama sponsoring the minorities and "special people" are over. The 20% of the country has had their time in the sun. Now it is the 80% majority's turn to call the shots......as it should be in a democracy. And the Democrats and the social program loving bleeding heart liberals with a chip on their shoulder and a cause for everything, can't handle it. We didn't cause this degree of problems in the 8 years of Obama. Why are the Dems causing problems now because there is a totally new direction for the country? Grow up Dems and live with it like we had to under Obama. Both sides take their turns at screwing up the country. Now, it's Trump's turn and he's doing a great job so far messing it up himself. In truth. there is no competency in either party. We just didn't want more Obama through Clinton.

You want it to be your way again? Win in 2020 in the Senate, House and the presidency. Good luck with that. The majority has spoken and Clinton and the rest of the Dems still can't understand what happened. That's "what happened" Hillary. We got sick and tired of the Dems patronizing the minorities and ignoring the majority. JMO

I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TonyB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2017 at 1:42pm
Hey Vet; how are you? Saw this post and your comments and thought I'd share some perspective. First: white people are no longer a majority in this country; we're a plurality. Mare than any other group but no longer 50% +1 of the population. Second: the DACA program was instituted with the idea of comprehensive immigration reform. As usual, Congress kicks the can down the road until it falls off a cliff. While I am in support of enforcement of immigration laws, I'm not in support of deporting people who were brought into this country as minors. They would return to a country that many of them don't remember and many wouldn't be able to speak the language. The DACA program provides no path to citizenship for those enrolled and most of the state lawsuits have more to do with economics rather than the enforcement of the law. 91% of DACA enrollees have jobs; all pay taxes if owed and are not eligible for any government assistance.

What to do about it is relatively easy: simply give these people a chance to apply for citizenship. Problem solved. Now the focus can be put on those individuals who are here illegally and are committing other crimes while here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2017 at 3:00pm
I am alright TonyB. I am about to have a lifestyle change in 20 working days. I will retire after 50 years of working. My time after the 12th of October will be devoted to taking care of my wife on a full time basis allowing my son to have his life back again. He will be free from caregiving and able to pursue employment and some social life once again after eight years. I'm happy for him.

I don't have a problem with the DACA people nor anyone else coming to this country to seek a better life. More power to them. However, I do take exception to some in society making exceptions for admitting immigrants who have come here illegally, who have lived in this country illegally for years and who have never made any attempt what-so-ever to find out how to become legal and a citizen of this country.

To be specific on one point you made. In your words....

"I'm not in support of deporting people who were brought into this country as minors. They would return to a country that many of them don't remember and many wouldn't be able to speak the language. The DACA program provides no path to citizenship for those enrolled and most of the state lawsuits have more to do with economics rather than the enforcement of the law. 91% of DACA enrollees have jobs; all pay taxes if owed and are not eligible for any government assistance."

Yes, they may be employed. May pay taxes on the money they make. May have established a family and a life here that is productive and may never have been in trouble with the law. BUT.......

The DACA rule, as written by the Obama Administration, was for TEMPORARY STATUS and was never intended to make these people permanent citizens. By this law, and with them staying for years to the point where they have taken up permanent residency, they are breaking the law. The problem is that there are DACA supporting people who know they broke the law but want to override the law, based on their emotions, to crusade to let them stay. I don't understand why the crusaders for the illegals want to nullify the intent of the law. Do we now change laws for each situation? Are the people who want to forgive the DACA people wanting to forget a law exists?

Solution:

Change the law and put into place a way to legalize them and, IMO, they are welcome to stay. If not, they remain, by the law, in the illegal status category and therefore, should be deported. It doesn't matter the age. If a minor, someone was responsible for their illegal status and the sole contributor to the minor's legality problems. Do we even need the DACA program if it provides no path to citizenship? It is more a green card temporary work program that the crusaders want to morph into a permanent status.

Legalize them or deport them but don't allow them to linger for years in an illegal status. And stop the practice of allowing adults to bring minors here who will be classified as "temporaries" under the DACA program and creating this controversy. JMO
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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