May levy

A got a good laugh at those of you who suggested using the historic Roosevelt Middle School building as a gathering spot for all of the "students" who need a little "extra motivation"!! 

I was insulted when Price declared that kids "can't learn in old buildings!"  However, I am reconsidering the issue.

This is one of the tougher issues for me to see a clear solution.  While I understand all the arguments about the MCSD poor performance and lack of discipline, I also think it is unrealistic to think that Middletown will ever be able to greatly increase their performance.  Maybe some gains can be made but not a huge movement upward.  So I agree with Ms. Andrews' "excuses" about the students they are dealing with.  But that does not mean that they should shy away from more daring approaches or

Yer pal and fellow revolutionary, spiderjohn(me!), has been recruited by the school levy committee.

Way to go Spider. So now you're on THEIR side now, huh?

Marianne-"and the performance of the district gets worse, then what?" We are already in the bottom tier or on the bottom as to performance. I don't understand this thinking as to the continued support of a poor performer. It is not logical. Question for you Marianne.....when you buy a car and it becomes a high mileage car with numerous maintenance issues and is no longer reliable, how long do you keep socking money into it before you pull the plug and get rid of it? Somewhere along the road, one must make a decision on whether their investment is worthwhile or not. It has reached that point for me. More than 10 years has gone by and can anyone honestly say that measureable progress has been made? Baby steps have been accomplished by this district but nothing appreciable. Surely, you are not suggesting that we go on in an endless manner with the same failed methods of the past, are you? Time to pull the plug on this patient, unless, of course, you want to try a competely different treatment for a cure. Then, it might be worth funding.

"I don't see how cutting school funding will enhance MCSD's performance in any way". Again, when the schools had the full compliment of funding, did you see a noticible, positive indication of "enhanced performance". No.... the performance has remained constant whether the district was fully funded or incured reduced funding. ie- Poor.

Performance has and will continue to suffer, not necessarily because of the money situation but rather because of the same repetitive failed methods of operation that have occured the last 20 years and the fact that the school authorities are stuck in their ways and won't try new changes to improve the system. At least the results have proven this to be the case.

Vet, this gets back to my point about the anti-tax position.  Your position sets up a scenario where it's heads you win, tails I lose.  If the schools improve then you say they don't need funding.  If they struggle then you withhold funding as punishment.  I believe that we are talking about a district and a population of students who will not realistically become a top-tier district.  Find me a top district with our demographics -- they are few and far between.  I think that while we are not a top district, there is learning going on in MCSD, there is some value to what these kids are learning, even if they generally are not Harvard bound.  I think a community should provide a base level of funding for their schools, nothing extravagant, as long as the schools are educating the vast majority of kids.  Insisting that Midd. students don't deserve funding because they aren't top of the line and most aren't college bound seems to me to be quite a high bar to set to meet your demands.  I don't believe, in general, our teachers and staff are any less qualified, dedicated, and competent than those in Lakota, Springboro, etc.  But they're working with students who already have one hand tied behind their back. 

My "type of mindset" has ruined Middletown?

Bill, while I enjoy your debate, I disagree with your points and analogy. Of course, Middletown has good students, I have nephews and nieces among them who graduated near a 4.0 GPA who went on to top state schools and did very well. But your analogy is completely off the mark. You use life support for grandma because she's aged. I don't see the comparison with students, because you somehow are equating performance with economics. By the way, Obama's rationing on age and health will be exactly what will happen to grandma, so one could argue that should be so in the school district.

Spider- excellent self assessment on your part. You sound like you are campaigning for an upcoming office with your neutral stance as to listening to both sides before forming an opinion. Fair enough as to neutrality. Still though, we have brought it to your attention that at times, you seem to "waffle".

You stated, "I really can't find any upside to rejecting this school levy". I can in a selfish way. My property taxes will be reduced and I will no longer be contributing my share to a district that I find as non-performing with no end in sight of any change. With this re-injection of money, are you convinced that anything will change or will it be business as usual? I'm picking the latter. I'll ask you, as a levy supporter (since no levy supporter has responded to the direct question- when is it time to pull the plug on the financial support for a historically poor performing system? Anyone? Why haven't the levy supporters asked the question of the school officials, as to when they think the schools will improve to the point when we can see some real positive news? Or, do the levy supporters just blindly go through the motions of voting for a known stagnant system and believe all the stuff the school people are shoveling? If so, how naive and how sad to see denial of the reality of the situation. Or, is approving the levy just the "civic thing to do" regardless of the known situation in certain circles? Accountablility to earn the taxpayer money means nothing then?

acclaro-Get your facts straight!  If you want to discuss the pros and cons of the school levy you must educate yourself on the FACTS first!  Research shows that students that come from poverty stricken backgrounds do not learn the same as middle class or upper middle class kids.  Everyone, at least I assumed, was aware of that FACT.  And yes, it is a fact.  It is not an excuse Mrs. Andrew or anyone else is making up.  They are behind the 8 ball before they even enter kindergarten.  Look at MCSD "Crawl" (sp?) scores.  The kids are assessed before they enter kindergarten and are each given a score.  MCSD scores are terrible.  By far the worst in the county and I'm guessing some of the worst in the state.  Again, It is a fact that these kids take far more resources to learn ($$$) and have a much harder time learning.  MCSD is 70plus% free and reduced lunch, which means that 70plus% of the kids come from a poverty background.

Pat, I think you are using the poverty perception to give a push for the levy as a continued excuse for performance. Let me put what you have stated in perspective. With an acknowledgement Middletown is among the most poverty ridden cities in the state because of the illustrious city council allowing all those vouchers they didn't know about (the dog ate my homework), then we need to spend more money to educate the student...as its the fault of the student and the poor that have brought the school down. What a convenient excuse now for performance which has been a continuation for five years now. 

Pat, the school system is down to the bones? Come on, lets be honest engines here. They have a communications Director, spent $250 kk on a wasteful attempt for a land grab, paid for an interim superintendant whom has been ill, paid for a retained search firm, and they are down to the bones? This is beginning to sound like an Obama spin cycle on healthcare reform.

NO, I don't agree with the poverty %-age either.  However, perhaps the camparison between MCSD, Similar District average, and statewide average is of some value...or, maybe not.

The school system is down to the bones on cuts? What about Alberico? Do we need a spokesperson for the schools as infrequently as she is needed? Can't someone answer the phone call from the Journal and make a statement? Does it take a special position (and high salary) to do that? How about a Director of Curriculum? Do we need a highly paid salaried position for that? Can't we incorporate some of the duties into other retained positions? How about the football coach being hired to monitor truancy? How about working that into the assistant principals job? Why do we need multiple assistant principals at these schools? As I understand it, Middletown High has at least 3 or 4 assistant principals. Why? What do they do all day...every day to occupy their time? Some fairly high salaries here, right? How many psychologists/counselors are in the system? If many, are they busy on a consistent basis? If not, why are we paying them that high salary?

And on and on.....

Kinda sounds like Vet wants to return to one room school houses. Or maybe he has taken a trip in the Hot Tub Time machine and never returned. Vet times have changed but apparently you haven't. You can't keep living the past. Things will never be that way again. You keep talking about $11000 being spent per pupil. That figure takes into consideration the students with disabilities. Mr Presta's chart shows 17% in our district compared to a state average of 13%. The state gives the district grants to cover the cost to educate those children. Unfortunately the grants do bot come off the cost per pupil. So the actual cost is lower than $11000. Sorry I do not have the exact figure, I suppose that downtown could give it to you. MCSD has a larger number of students with disabilities because our program is recognized as one of the best!

PERCENTAGE OF FAMILIES AND PEOPLE WHOSE INCOME IN THE PAST 12 MONTHS IS BELOW THE POVERTY LEVEL
All families	13.5%	+/-2.9	(X)	(X)
With related children under 18 years	23.5%	+/-5.6	(X)	(X)
With related children under 5 years only	21.0%	+/-11.6	(X)	(X)
Married couple families	7.0%	+/-3.0	(X)	(X)
With related children under 18 years	15.0%	+/-6.8	(X)	(X)
With related children under 5 years only	22.2%	+/-17.7	(X)	(X)
Families with female householder, no husband present	32.7%	+/-8.4	(X)	(X)
With related children under 18 years	41.3%	+/-11.6	(X)	(X)
With related children under 5 years only	38.7%	+/-28.3	(X)	(X)
All people	19.0%	+/-3.0	(X)	(X)
Under 18 years	28.6%	+/-7.1	(X)	(X)
Related children under 18 years	28.2%	+/-7.1	(X)	(X)
Related children under 5 years	32.5%	+/-10.6	(X)	(X)
Related children 5 to 17 years	26.5%	+/-8.2	(X)	(X)

Marianne- Little Miami....functioning at a high level operating with solid management practices (different from Middletown schools) and hurting for money. So, sounds like this district is doing a fine job of educating, producing positive results, with an excellent rating, while being starved at the money well with no levy approvals. They have managed to perform, despite the lack of money. Another example where a good education does not necessarily require alot of money. Unlike Middletown, this is a school system that the people should support as they are producing and have earned the the right of levy passages. Sad to read that the people don't support this. Different scenario than ours, IMO.

Smartman- No. I don't want to "return to one room schoolhouses" and I am reminded everyday that the world has changed. While I can't "live in the past", I can also see that taking certain time-proven methods of the past and applying them to today's world may improve things compared to the cluster we now call "current times". Look, regardless of the make-up of the $11,000 per student, the fact is that Middletown is one of the highest taxed school districts spending some of the highest costs per pupil in the state with some of the lowest performance results in the state. Not something to be proud of is it? I am pleased that MCSD is "one of the best" with the disabilities program. That's fine. Would like to be able to say that for the general population of the school as well, but at the rate of improvement in the last 20 years, won't happen in my lifetime.

"this levy is needed to preserve our schools and keep existing programs"......WHAT?????.....that was my question from the other post......WHY, do you want to keep the existing programs????? THEY DON'T WORK OR THEY WOULD BE PRODUCING POSITIVE RESULTS SMARTMAN!!!!! If what you are trying isn't getting the job done.....for god sakes......CHANGE WHAT YOU ARE DOING until you find the successful way of doing those things. Where did the logic go???????? Furthermore, why would you want to preserve the schools given the current state of affairs? Surely, you are not content with the way they are operating, are you???? The schools need a total revamp in operational guidance, planning and implementation. Very little has worked or we would have all been feeling warm and fuzzy about now.

I'll ask again for the third time....when is enough... enough? When do we pull the plug on what we are currently doing and start with a new game plan? How bad do the results have to get and how long do we have to see those bad results before we finally say....we need to change what we're doing here? Again, for the third time....anybody???

Ok. Ms. Andrew.... let's assume you have made changes as you claim. Changes can be made in many subtle ways so as not to produce much of an impact. What have your changes produced toward significantly improving the performance of the district? Haven't seen it in the indicators numbers as yet. Haven't seen it in the proficiency test score numbers as yet. Are your kids coming out of high school ready for the working world yet or to continue on to college? Why do colleges (MUM and others) have to set up remedial classes to prepare high school graduates for the freshman year of college if that is so? Please tell us something about the school system that will convince us to embrace your enthusiasm for the changes that you claim to have made and tell us the overall impact that those changes had toward making the district more promising.

No. I don't have kids in the school system. No, I don't volunteer at the schools as I work out of town and return to Middletown long after the school day is done. And no, I certainly don't work for the schools. BUT, Ms. Andrew, I can read a chart that outlines results on specific performance criteria for this district. Heck, I'm even smart enough to discipher what the charts say on a good day. Don't try the condescending approach. It won't work.

No, I don't have short term memory. Just don't look at things through rose-colored glasses. Are you wishing to do verbal battle here?

"no magic bullets that will produce brilliant results overnight" What? You and other school board members have had more than 20 years (yes, I'll use the 20 year thing again, much to your chagrin) to work on the problems and, to date, the schools have gone down the perverbial toilet since the 60's. How much longer will it take, Ms. Andrews. Our patience and money are running out. What do you need....another ten years or so?

Bingo....THE statement...."we are dealing with people here-students, teachers, parents- who are all RESISTANT TO CHANGE. Read my previous posts on CHANGING THE SYSTEM IF THE CURRENT ONE IS FAILING. The students are not a problem for change. New rules are set up all the time for them. The parents.... I would bet that change would be welcome by alot of parents as they want to see some actual positive movement in the education process also. The teachers- what is the problem...the ability to change is contingent on employment in today's working world. Can't change, we'll find someone who will. That's the employers attitude nowadays.

Changing programs EVERY YEAR....What? Who suggested that a new program be given just a year to work or not???? I agree, it takes a year for everyone to adapt to new expectations and learn the new rules before ever deciding whether it will work or not. Kinda jumping the gun here, aren't you?

Don't tell the former union AK workers that they can't be replaced. AK did it and it can be done in any union situation. The teacher's union isn't invincible. Ok, you have explained what is needed to deal with the union seniority, hirebacks, RIF list,etc. Let's make it happen, bite the bullet, work through it and come out of it in better shape with regard to dealing with the teacher's union if, indeed, they are in the way of making this a better district. Whatever it takes....changing operational modes, removing the teacher's union influence, reducing unnecessary positions within the district, firing the superintendent....whatever.... do it instead of waiting for years producing the same results. More drastic changes, not subtle ones will get us to where we want to be quicker, won't it? At the current pace, real change will not occur for another 20 years.

acclaro the Mission statement of MCSD was changed several years ago.  Probably because they came to realization that the old one was unattainable, my opinion, maybe someone in the know can state otherwise.

Okay, I'm going to sign off this thread because Viet Vet and Acclaro so clearly have all the answers.

Originally posted by Marcia Andrew (For the avoidance of any doubt, in response to the inevitable person who will take the above literally, this is SARCASM).   Good Night Marcia Andrew

 SARCASM???  How DARE you use SARCASM!!!

 

 Just kidding!!  I am just kidding!!!  

Ms. A:  I really do understand your frustration.  I think that all sides feel it often, as this problem has no simple solution. 

 

Ms. Andrews, I appreciate the debate and your comments. For what it may worth, I'd be pleased to be a mentor to anyone (student) at Middletown High or the middle school. I admit my kids went to private schools K-12. I admit I have about 5-6 direct generations of school teachers, administrators, and college profs and a President whom are family members. I also admit one of my father's best friends was former superintendant Deacon Diehl (spelling with apologies), so I I can emphatically state no one in this town realizes the value and benefit of getting a solid education than I. One of my ya's went through W&M 'B" school, so we know how competitive schools are today to get in, with ACT's near or exceeding 30's. 

Vet, I believe I understand Ms. Andrews to mean she was being sarcastic in her response, but perhaps she is signing off from the debate which would be surprising. I give you an A for effort Ms. Andrews &  encourage you to stay active and debate the issues here and elsewhere. You'll find far more constructive and objective debate in this circle than in the community who will simply nod, and say everything is fine...the light will be shining bright when the train arrives and the computer engineers move in and start riding the Gary Fisher 30 speeds around the new bike trail.