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No Tax Increase

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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2010 at 9:13pm

Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

... Every campaign brings out weasel words, misstatements, innuendos, half-truths, omissions, misdirection, and sometimes even outright lies.

It’s as if either the high-and-mighty feel that we “little people” can’t handle the truth, or they think that we are too stupid to recognize it when we are not being told the truth. ...

Why not be HONEST, and if arguing the actual merits of the honest facts cannot pass a levy, then maybe, just maybe, it SHOULD NOT PASS. ...

Originally posted by Smartman Smartman wrote:

... I just returned from Myrtle Beach with 50 of the finest students that I have ever had the opportunity to associated with. ... Oh did I mention that these students are in the top 10% of thir class! ...

Originally posted by Bill Bill wrote:

well, my niece was on that Myrtle Beach trip and is definitely not in the top 10% of her class!  Confused ...
  Confused
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Marcia Andrew View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcia Andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2010 at 9:40pm
Mr. Presta,
 
Thank you for the kind words.  I am trying to be open and honest by posting here.
 
The point I was trying to make in our previous exchanges from several weeks ago (i have not gone back and re-read them), which I guess I didn't make very well, is that this substitute levy does not raise the tax rate from what it currently is combined under the two existing levies.
 
Could the rate fluctuate slightly in the future? Yes, but the rate doesn't matter with a fixed sum levy. If your property value goes down because all property values in the district have gone down, you will still pay the same proportional share of the levy, but it will be a higher percentage of your property value. But the dollars you pay will stay roughly the same.
 
Take the example of a school district with 10,000 properties each with a tax value of $1000. Total tax valuation of the district is $10,000,000. This district passes a fixed sum levy of $1 million.  Each property owner pays a tax of $100, which is 10% of its assessed value.  Recession comes along, all properties in the district are re-assessed at a value of $900 each.  Each still pays $100 on the fixed sum levy. That $100 now represents 11% of its assessed value, but the dollar value of the tax paid by the taxpayer has not changed, and the dollar value collected by the district has not changed.
 
Marcia Andrew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcia Andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2010 at 9:51pm
Spider, I think you are giving me more credit than I deserve (good or bad) on this levy campaign. Not all the volunteers come to the meetings.  A parent of a Middie grad/spouse of a teacher is in charge of our two door to door literature walks, working closely with a central office administrator.  Another parent from Mayfield is coordinating the telephone calls (live people, Vet, not computerized) that are being made this week.  A team composed of a part-time tutor, a parent, a teacher and a central office administrator are handling mailings to all voters who pull an absentee ballot.  Other parents have been managing yard signs and speaking at evening shows/award nights at the schools.  I have relied greatly on Debbie Alberico.
 
I am chairing the levy campaign effort, but only because no one else wanted to step up to that responsibility.  This is symptomatic of the city in general, not just the schools. It is also one reason, in addition to many I've already posted, why we opted for a continuous levy.  Each time we have to run a levy campaign, the well of volunteers runs drier.  People are burned out, and don't want to face the bitter, sometimes personal attacks from those who oppose tax levies.
 
Marcia Andrew
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acclaro View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2010 at 10:34pm
Ms. Andrews, while I am certain you are a delightful person, and an excellent 'av' litigator, you on many occasion, end a start of a compelling migration towards discaring facts to your side on effort, by attacking always, the "others." I assume that is bred into a strong advocate, but it respectfully takes from your point t be made. In your statement, you reference the "bitter" personal attacks" from those who oppose levies. Always the fault of those whom ascent is coveted, but when disagreement is apparent, its the others personal attacks. No one on this site has made personal attacks, and I recall a few harsh words directed from Smartman at those who saw no wisdom in pulling the 'yes' ballot entry. It really undermines the effort, and that's constructiv criticism.
 
Smartman, as for constitutionality, unconstitutionality, your point is indeed moot. The Ohio Supreme Court are not legislators of law, they interpret and apply the law. In 2005, they affirmed the cases which continued after countless mediation and effort to comport to "equal funding" and other interpreted inequalities be set aside, no more hearing before the Ohio Supreme Court. Indeed, the city of Middletown has more funding per student, than most school districts in the state of Ohio. To wit, the unconstitutionality argument you advance was directed at schools which received less adantage and accompanying funding, than the city you advocate is in desprate need to continuing funding.
 
Turning to sj, thank you for your comments, my point regarding Dr. Rasmussen was quite simple: he stated there to be a direct coorelation between the city's success and movement forward, and the success of the school system. It is a direct coorelation, not inverse. Therefore, funding the school district does nothing to rectify the city's problems, as Dr. rasmussen alluded (cause and effect- direct proportional coorelation). Ergo- throwing money at the levy does nothing positive, because the city's problems continue. Its like pouring water in a bucket filled with holes. For every gallon put in, the city holes seep through the water, ie, $$$, and its perpetual waste. Until the city moves forward, on a projectory towards bankruptcy, then the school levy will not make a dent in performance. The levy benefits the status quo, keeping overhead in place, and protecting the programs the top 10% desire such as AP, et al, then they move to Cornel, Bucknell, and never set foot in Middletown again.
 
For those on the fence, tragically, the city's mismanagement has led to perpetual cried of levies which will never cease. Money is not going to fix the problems, as the city has self inflicted so many wounds, its beyond repair and atonement. As Mr. Presta aptly stated, the trend line will be maxing the 4% increase, as property values decline, and the city continues on its path of self destruction. No golf course, no east end, no buying a mall, no tearing down all the 'brownfields' in the 600 sq miles which encompass Middletown, will alter that.
 
Middletown is one of the top funded districts in the state, it is the basis for the argument of unconstitutionality set forth in 2001, as it received such abundant funding, and yet, underperforms. Simply because Ms. Andrews and others don't want to be burdened by the levies and the lack of support, the apathy, which is a plague inflicting the city for many decades, a levy without limits, should be funded.
 
26% is simply an overhead number. Undoubtedly, we all know the school system in Middletown and the state, is laden with layers of overhead. Its time to slay the dragon, and then confront the one at city hall. The only union today which hasn't been impacted by down-sizing, operational improvements, is the school system and the state/ federal government. While others espouse the levy is critical for saving Middletown, the other dimensional element linked as one, is the city, a failing embodiment set on a path for bankruptcy, awaiting the Phoenix to rise called SunCoke. AK knew this, the Atrium knew this, so did Square D, First Financial. For those that can't escape Middletown, are trapped like quicksand, are you honestly buying this argument, and willing to pay more, while the 'smart" ones left? I don't think so. You know better.             
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 1:09am
Originally posted by Marcia Andrew Marcia Andrew wrote:

Mr. Presta,
 
Thank you for the kind words.  I am trying to be open and honest by posting here.
 
The point I was trying to make in our previous exchanges from several weeks ago (i have not gone back and re-read them), which I guess I didn't make very well, is that this substitute levy does not raise the tax rate from what it currently is combined under the two existing levies.
 
Could the rate fluctuate slightly in the future? Yes, but the rate doesn't matter with a fixed sum levy. ...
Marcia Andrew

Ms. Andrew:

I, too, am trying to be open and honest when posting here!
 
And the point I was trying to make in our previous exchanges from several weeks ago (but I suggest that you do go back and re-read them), which I guess I didn't make very well, is that this substitute levy CAN, indeed, raise the tax rate from what it currently is combined under the two existing levies.

And please don’t bother to explain simple ratios (or other simple grade school or high school mathematical theory or practice) to me any more, thank you very much!

You don’t seem to understand the very levy that you, yourself, are espousing! The FACT is that the District will be guaranteed the AMOUNT, not the RATE! (I won’t insult you by patiently explaining the difference between “amount” and “rate” as if you were a fifth grader. You are a grown woman with at least one advanced degree. If you “don‘t get it,” look it up, or better yet, sue whomever conferred your degree and donate any award to the MCSD.)

If properties are removed from the tax rolls for any reason, the District is entitled to collect the same TOTAL AMOUNT from the owners of the remaining properties, limited ONLY by the 4% annual cap on any INCREASE in the RATE required to do so! Please do not try to confuse the issue by saying things such as: “That won’t happen.” or “if that happens, it’ll be the least of our worries.”

Another FACT is that the City already has plans to “land bank” quite a number of formerly privately-owned properties within the next few years. The City will NOT be paying property taxes on these properties. This virtually GUARANTEES that the District will NOT be collecting the FULL AMOUNT of the tax guaranteed by this levy at the current RATE! This means that EITHER: the District will collect LESS than the TOTAL AMMOUNT that this levy guarantees; OR: the remaining property owners will be paying MORE TAX (whether by a higher assessed value or by a higher rate, but MORE TAX nonetheless) than they are now!

I have already provided some plausible examples of how this may occur.  (Such as one of the City's schemes for sub-dividing Towne Mall, which would REMOVE Towne Mall from the tax rolls, return the new, subdivided properties as ADDITIONS to the District's guaranteed FIXED SUM, and raise the remaining property owners' taxes to make up for the loss of the present Towne Mall.)  Another, more recent, example would be the attempted three-way swap boondoggle that was about to occur recently.  The Strand and adjacent properties will be OFF the tax rolls, as usual the remaining taxpayers (also known as the "bagholders") must pay enough additional tax to maintain the District's FIXED SUM, and any new development will be ADDITIVE to the tax rolls (and to the Districts cashbox.)
 
If you STILL don’t understand, perhaps you should ask a tax attorney, but do so quickly, as YOU are about to vote on an issue of which you seem to be completely ignorant.

Please excuse me for being so blunt, but time is growing short, and the PEOPLE deserve to be told the TRUTH!!!

“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 2:28am

Ms. Andrew:

I again apologize for being so blunt in my previous message. It’s been a long, difficult day.

I believe the problem might be in the proper understanding of the ORC’s definition of “current property” in regards to property taxes.

Nearly any significant event (other than a straight sale or the like) could disqualify a property that was included as a “current property” under a school tax levy after the fact. Unfortunately, (or fortunately, depending upon one’s point of view) this does not correspondingly adjust the “guaranteed amount” or “fixed sum” of the levy. The remaining owners of “current properties” can be made to pick up the slack for any and all “current properties” so disqualified.

If any "current property" is subdivided or developed, it will be ADDED to the tax rolls (that is, it will NOT then be a "current property"!) and will be an addition to the $18.3 million!

Please allow me to exaggerate to the point of absurdity for the sole purpose of illustrating this point:

Let’s assume that nearly every property owner in Middletown who could do so, filed bankruptcy. Further, let’s assume that every other person in Middletown decided to either leave, or otherwise refuse to pay property taxes, and somehow every property in the city ended up in the hands of some governmental agency (which means that there would be NO property taxes being paid!!!. That is, everyone except you and I, Ms. Andrew.

You and I were the only ones who managed to hang in here. Now, I realize this is utterly ridiculous (I wouldv'e probably already headed for an unnamed South Pacific island), but play along. What the law says is that YOU and I, alone, would be responsible for paying our property taxes for this proposed levy (subject ONLY to a 4% cap on the increase in any one year) up to the entire $18.3 MILLION!!!

You might not agree, you might not like it, but that IS what the law says.

I would cite the section, but on top of everything else, my computer crashed a few days ago and I had to do a full recovery. I have everything backed up, but I have reason to believe that the virus was “backed up” into my external hard drive, so I am uncertain how to proceed, except to start over from scratch.

(And that was some of the best news I’ve had recently!!! Stern%20Smile )

“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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spiderjohn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 6:57am
Mike--if you imply that Ms.A and her committee are mis-representing the longe-range costs of this levy, then I strongly disagree. There was no convenient posturing or twisting of the facts.
 
I was at a meeting where this issue dominated. Half of the group understood that the levy could increase ccost-wise over time--the others understood the fixed cost to be correct. MS.A was adamant(as was everyone else) that the correct answer be presented, whatever it may be.
 
The final official decider(I believe county--maybe state) made the final official decision. While the wording sounded like something straight from the Les Landen playbook, it was affirming the "no additional funds" position, and it was somewhat confusing and complicated.
 
Since this was the answer already in use, and was the answer that everyone was hoping for, it was decided to stick with it. If the opposite answer had been given, the correction absolutely would have bween made.
 
Yes, Mike--I have known Rev.Tyus for years. He had always been very open and honest in our discussions. Often we agree--occasionally we don't. I like the man, and have no issues with him at this time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 9:23am
Admittedly, I only got through Calculus III and Statistics III in college, so the complex math formulation may be too complex for most to compute, but Mike Presta has explained it in terms I think a 5th grader would comprehend on using math a 3rd grader is exposed, its called ratio's and percentile. The amount of taxes is a fixed expense, not variable. If the city buys properties with all that wonderful giveaway Obama $$$, no tax burden is paid. Take a peek at the Bell residence parents of Todd Bell on the audit site, and see a redution of about 35-40% below what ohers pay, because its bank owned vs city owned, to comprehend the term "tax rediuction" and its import. As taxes collected decline, which Mike is correctly projecting to occur in the future, associated with an infinite tax burden that must be defeated, the % of tax increase and paid by a property owner. Therefore, it is a variable expense, in contradiction to the fixed amount of funding the city willl receive.
 
To the property owner in 5th grade terms; you'll be paying more taxes each year cpped at a variable amount annually of 4%, to maintain the fixed amounf to be collected by an underperforming school district receiving among the highest funding in the state of Ohio. Look at New Jersey, who defeated this week, tax levies in the state. They average $19,000. per pupil, he Governorasked for a one year pay freeze, teachers said NO WAY! Entitlement has consequences----its called voters, you will pay a capped 4% increase annually based upon Middletown's decline, while maintaining a fixed rate of income for the school system. So, why did the commercia entities bail, or what happens to you when they bail? You get stuck making up the difference? You find that a compelling reason to vote for a levy? If so, I have some oil sitting in some storage in water in the Gulf of Mexico. I'll sell it to you at a bargain of $5.00 a gallon, but you have to skim it off the top of the water and put it in your own contanier.
 
This is the cycle Middletown is headed. Next, we have the pleasure of a 2.25% tax rate, making the city among the highest in Ohio, with the worst ambience and amenities. Nice explanation Mike....and it won't raise taxes! Just read and understand the fine print voters. It makes NO very easy doesn't it.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 9:52am
OK--once again, and in 1st grader terms--Mr.Presta's implication that the BOE and levy committee deliberately misled the public about additional cost increases from passage of the replacement levy are totally un-founded and not correct. I am offended, and surprised that Mr.P would make such a statement without have direct evidence to support his claim.
 
Being present for most of the committee discussion, I can say that the complete effort and desire was to present an honest answer to a complicated ?.
 
acclaro--I hope that you have an opportunity to read the determination provided regarding the long-range cost of the replacement levy. Then I would like to watch you explain that decision to your group of 5th graders.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcia Andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 10:11am
Mr. Presta,
 
I understand the levy we are proposing just fine, thank you.  I do not understand why my effort to explain it using an example of round numbers would offend you so greatly.  I think we can all agree that school funding is pretty complicated. I have used this example with other people and they have found it very helpful to illustrate the effects in concrete terms.
 
I agree with you that your hypotheticals are absurd and ridiculous. Even in your  "end of Middletown" scenario, you and I, as the last property owners standing, would not pay the entire $18.3 million, would we, because the 4% per year limitation would kick in, before we got anywhere close to that.  So, the school district would not collect anywhere near $18.3 in that scenario.  Of course, the only children left in the district would be my 3, since everyone else had left town.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 10:48am
The salient argument as I have reread a few arguments Ms. Andrews makes in her Journal column, is it is beter to pass a levy because although your property values are declining rapidly, and its virtually impossible to sell a home in Middletown, the taxpayer must do a "bail-out", and pass a levy, because it will only be worse. The real issues are the city has not performed to reasonable standards and brought business in, and the school system, in spite of previous passage of levies, has failed. It has not brought in new students with new buuldings, new Apple G4's, G5's, and offering quantum physics to those who wish to be aeronautical engineers.
 
No, the argument is- by gosh, taxpayers, just because The Atrium left, the AK execs left, First Financial left, and countless other businesses, just think how bad it will get if we don't pass the levy?
 
In reality, a reasonable mind would know the continous leveies thrust our way wiill continue. Passing this levy will embolden the city, decrying "crime is up, we need that public safety levy passed."! And of course, the school system will continue on cruise control, the status quo, aka CI, breathing a sigh of relief no cuts made, we continue on, Johnny and Molly don't have to be pulled out of MHS and we pay $6700. for tuition at Fenwick ir $12,000 for them at Miami Valley School. This isthe same school board who stated they didn't have time to spend for searching for the lone candidate standing for the superintendent job, while paying for a search firm. The same school board whom paid $hundreds of thousands to F,B,&T, making a few associates partners, while fighting an battle which was not to be won with Franklin.
 
On the contrary, bringing in the state will stabilize Middletow and the school system. They will bring in accountability, fiscal restraint, and get results. They did it in Franklin, and property values did not drop. Does anyone hold passing a school levy will prevent property values from dropping? Economics 101 dictates the law of supply and demand. A poor school district with huge $$$ pumped into continuing to underperform, does not stabilize property valuation. The market does, by demand. Demand is created by: 1) image 2) perception of value, 3) desireability "quality of life 4) Intelligent people making a unique a differentiating character in a community which is better than what is foun elsewhere within a reasonable driving difference.
 
Results will dictate property values in the city. The school system is tied to the city. the city tied to the school. They both underperform. The notion passing a levy stabilized property values is nonsensical. The school improvement will come from rising performance and perhaps, a change in economics. Throwing $$$ at the levy will have no affect upon valuation, as it will certainly not stir demand. Wasn't that the promise given for building the new school buldings---built them, and they will come? They are built, and they did not come. Keep it simple voters. Demand is based on three things, and three things only: location, location, and location. Passing a levy does nothing to alter tha equation, try as they must to convince you otherwise. 
 
As for the formula....it is what it is. You pay up to a variable 4% increase, highly likely, as property valuation, foreclosure, and the city buys more property with Obama $$$ increases. The best propsect of turning the system around is to bring in those who have expertise to do so, and that's the state. The path of status quo just keeps a bad situation----nothing more than a bad situation. .   " '
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 11:09am
When it comes to this levy,regardless of what it is renewal,new whatever, how come nobody is capable of figuring out that people can't afford it ?!!!!
 
No one and I mean no one from the school,the city hall,teachers union ever comes up and says "Can the citizens afford this ?". Correct me if I'm wrong, but a flyer we received stated that on a $100,000 home the levy would cost $575 per year. 
 
I live on a fixed income and so do a lot of my neighbors, who can afford this ?!!! You people are walking around with blinders on ! You make X-amount of dollars and think everyone makes the same or more ! The BOE and school administrators  apperantly think of citizens only in dollar amounts !!
 
When the federal government was bailing out banks and the auto industry I never heard a word from them. I never got a bailout. My house is still unpaid for. No one makes my car payment except me. The executives from Chrysler never called me and said they would forgive my loan. The city of Middeltown says I still have to pay city taxes. They never made me exempt. I don't have half a million dollars sitting in some fund paying me interest.
 
If the failure of this levy results in the predicted "death" that district officials claim, then so be it. I'm sick of the threats by school & city officials, I'm sick of the propaganda, I'm sick of the rich wanting more for free, I'm sick of a government caring more about industry than it's people, I'm sick of politicians starting wars over nothing, I'm sick of young men coming back from wars lamed, and most of all I'm sick of spoiled public employees who make a great living and want more from a public that can not sustain them !!!!
 
As for me and my house we will vote NO for the school levy,the public safety levy , the library levy and any other levy anyone cares to come up with !!!!!!!!!!!!
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 12:37pm
Hermes- IMO, no one, from the school board to the admin., to the teachers indicate that they care whether you can afford what THEY want to happen. They appear to be in it for themselves. They will do anything to protect their system, their job, their pay and their benefits/retirement despite being presented factual evidence that they haven't performed to earntheir requests. They care not who is affected-just that they get their requests met and that their turf is protected. If this were not true, we would occasionally read or hear some type of acknowledgement that they realize that their leviescould be a hardship on certain segments of the community. Don't hear or read that message at all, do we? All we hear is the blame game where no-voters are "hurting the kids"- "denying the kids a decent education"- "hurting the health of the community by not supporting the schools"- "unappreciative of the educational community"- etc. Not allowed to have a descenting opinion. Just blindly go along with the program and give them what they want. Hell, that "giving them what they want" has contributed to where we are now. We started out believing their "trust us" propaganda and accorded them their every wish for years. You see what they got us.....(cue the indicators/proficiency test scores and continuous improvement ranking after all these years) Mercy it is painful to watch as this school district has gone right down the crapper since the 70's. However, as Docktor Stevie Price told me one time when we got into it, "well I don't see it that way" when I showed him the area test scores with Midd. on the bottom and questioned why that was. Denying facts presented, giving as many reasons out of their control as to why they failed, and flat out twisting of comments made by the opposition seem to be their favorite games to play. Admission of shortcomings, failures and deceit is not in their playbook. Never will be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 4:37pm
Spider:
I meant exactly what I said!!!  No more, no less!!
 
I did not "imply" that the BoE was wrong about anything EXCEPT their statements that the "tax RATE could not rise"!!
 
The tax RATE can rise, by up to 4% per year, as "current properties" fall off the tax rolls.
 
The "TOTAL AMOUNT" or "FIXED SUM" of $18.3 million that the District will be entitled to receive cannot rise, but the amount that each current or future owner of "CURRENT PROPERTIES" pays CAN RISE!!!
 
This will be TRUE regardless of how much you, Ms. Andrew, the BoE, or anyone else hope it not to be true.
 
These attacks are rapidly convincing me of the proper vote on this issue.
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 5:07pm

Ms. Andrew:

Your efforts using the ratios of assessed value to amount paid per property offend me because either:

A) you think that I am dumber than a fifth-grader;

Or B) you are trying to deceive me;

Or C) you are obstinate, and refuse to try to see what I have tried to clearly explain!

You refuse to accept the simple concept that THE DISTRICT IS ENTITLED TO COLLECT THE “FIXED SUM” (your term, my term has consistently been “total amount“) OF $18.3 MILLION FROM THE TAX-PAYING OWNERS OF THE “CURRENT PROPERTIES”, EVEN IF THE POOL OF “CURRENT PROPERTIES” SHRINKS!!!

Now, it is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE to do this unless, in some fashion or other, taxes are RAISED on the remaining “CURRENT PROPERTIES”!!!  THAT is one point on which I believe the proponents have been misleading the voters.  SAME "fixed sum", fewer "current properties", DO THE MATH!!!

Now, if you STILL don’t understand, you can look it up, ask an expert, phone a friend, or write Dear Abby.  I don't care because I know that I have done my best to speak the truth!!!

And that is the last that I will say on the matter!!!

 
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 5:16pm
Hmmm.....it appears the tactic is out of Saul Alinsky's playbook on Radicalism: 
 
Pass the levy tactics-
 

7. Tactics

"Tactics are those conscious deliberate acts by which human beings live with each other and deal with the world around them. ... Here our concern is with the tactic of taking; how the Have-Nots can take power away from the Haves." p.126

Always remember the first rule of power tactics
(pps.127-134):

1. "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have."

2. "Never go outside the expertise of your people. When an action or tactic is outside the experience of the people, the result is confusion, fear and retreat.... [and] the collapse of communication.

3. "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

4. "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity."

5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."

6. "A good tactic is one your people enjoy."

7. "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time...."

8. "Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose."

9. "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself."

10. "The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this unceasing pressure that results in the reactions from the opposition that are essential for the success of the campaign."

11. "If you push a negative hard and deep enough, it will break through into its counterside... every positive has its negative."

12. "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."

13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.  In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'...

     "...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...'

     "One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other." (pps.127-134)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 6:18pm
lol
y'all are far too sensitive and take yourselves far too seriously.
 
Vote however you choose--just spare us the egotistical rhetoric.
Thankfully Mike P, is done.
 
This levy will probably pass without your support anyway.
 
Hermes' reasoning was by far the most real and sensible.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 7:11pm
Hermes, can't help but jab a little here.... the well-worn "living on a fixed income" complaint doesn't mean much over the last few years.  Many of us would love our income to be fixed and have no fear of pay reduction, layoffs, etc.!  Besides, most "merit pools" companies give out is about 2-3% -- which isn't too far off the COI increase you would get.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 7:15pm
I meant COL, Cost of Living increase....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 7:20pm
Of course it will pass sj! Its because the rationale is so compelling...its the Middlie Pride, we're getting better right? And those that disagree, well, its the egotistical know it alls, the naysayers. Well, the naysayers have had it up to here with Middletown's promises, and I would be a little more cautious than you articulate in your wild enthusiasm for a positive outcome. New Jersey thought the same as you declare. Bill, the adage, its Middie pride, and we are making progress cannot be a more worn phrase than an individual stating the income is fixed. But, at least you comprehend the difference between fixed and variable expense, that's an improvement over some. Here's New Jersey's results folks, and Middletown is on a path to greatness! I still have alot of oil in the Gulf of Mexico for sale for those buying this positive spin on the levy.
 
  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 7:21pm
lol bill--unfortunaely I can't give any pay increases, and have taken two pay cuts.
fixed income could mean goord or bad
 
no one can afford more taxes, especially for non-essential services
 
fortunately the school levy vote doesn't have to be unanimous 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 7:21pm
Thank you spider, and I really hate to get upset over the issues because I tend to lose focus, but the buck has to stop some where. I realize this issue is important to a lot of people especially the kids when they see and hear what teachers & administrators,who they are taught to respect and never doubt, spew their threats & intimidation tactics to the public these kids must think the general public hates them or something. We live in a spoiled environment. Kids are spoiled, adults are spoiled and it's pathetic.
 
My entire argument about levies is not about test scores or pay raises, it's the fact that when the city or BOE ask for money they will go to any and all lengths to get it and not give a damn about who they walk on to do it. They get tunnel vision, all they see is how much money they can get and for how long.
 
I'll direct this to Ms Andrew, do you care where this money comes from ? Do you give a damn whether or not someone has to do without to pay for this levy ? Do you care that a child may have to go to your school wearing clothes bought at Salvation Army because his/her parents have to dish out so much money ? Do you care that a child may go to bed hungry because his/her parents can't afford a meal because the levy took away grocery money ? Do you think any employer will give a Middeltown resident a pay raise to cover what is being paid in levies ? Do you care that this year alone there are a total of 3 levies being presented to the public ?
 
In closing, this is not the 1960's, AK Steel is no longer a supporter & benefactor of this town. Middletown has fallen, the downtown area is dead. The high paying jobs are not present. The hospital even left town. (I don't care what you call the east side it's not Middeltown) It's over. The funds are not here. In the flyer I received today it mentions this money will go towards teachers, support staff, sports, honors programs, foreign language, music and art, busses, books, supplies and other programs. At least three of these could be eliminated. Cuts are needed, not increases.
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 7:34pm
Originally posted by Bill Bill wrote:

Hermes, can't help but jab a little here.... the well-worn "living on a fixed income" complaint doesn't mean much over the last few years.  Many of us would love our income to be fixed and have no fear of pay reduction, layoffs, etc.!  Besides, most "merit pools" companies give out is about 2-3% -- which isn't too far off the COI increase you would get.
 
Jab away Bill, I'm a tough old coot. LOL
 
Just for clarification when I refered to fixed income that is what I get only from my own investment as retirement. I don't get SS or SSI so for me there is no raise or cost of living increase. When I say fixed it's exactly that,fixed at a certain level and as I age that level keeps going down. The economy hasn't helped either. My wife still works though, a full time job thank goodness. (That leaves me all this free time to get on here and b****.) LOL
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 7:56pm

ahh, that sounds nice -- to have a couple years in retirement while the wife still works.  Sleep in, golf any time...I can only hope

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smartman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 8:49pm
Hey!!! I'm on a fixed income!!! My employer only gives so many dollars to live on! So what are you bitching about Hermes?
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