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Don't wait on the train

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Hermes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Don't wait on the train
    Posted: Dec 17 2010 at 2:03pm
Kasich stuck to his guns and now the train has gone poof into the wind. The $400 million slated for Ohio 3-C rail is now going to California,Florida and New York.
 
So it looks like council has made another blunder by jumping the gun and taking possession and doing the land swap thing with the train depot. More tax payer money wasted by totally incompetent city leadership.
 
What blunder is next ? Cincy State deal ? PAC deal ? Come on city leaders,don't let us down !! We know another blunder is coming !! Keep up the good record of blunders !!
 
 
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Pacman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 17 2010 at 3:35pm
What Hermes those thousands of tourist ain't coming to this historic and glorious city and do.....and do....and do...hell I don't know what they were gonna do here.  Does anyone else?  That is one question nobody ever bothered to answer, while they danced the train is coming dance.
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Hermes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 17 2010 at 6:47pm
Naw Pacman they aint'a comin,no one gettin off da train with der bicycles,no touristers to go downtown and buy goods,well except dat der artsy place and there aint even no artty folks there anyway. Maybe some day one'a dem dar artsy folks can paint a sad pitcher of dis here town and show all dem sad folks a wait'n on dat der train dat aint'a comin. Dab blame sad day fer sure. Cry
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2010 at 7:24am
Ahhh yes the train is coming deal.
Several months ago when Mr Kohler published the map of the new downtown core I noticed that
First Ave was blocked off and all the current business properties on the East side of the cemetery were gone. I picked up the phone and called Mr Kohler and he informed me that it was a mistake in the map.
Just last week I was informed that the City had an options to buy all three of these properties so it wasn’t just a simple mistake on Mr Kohler’s map.
We got lucky this time on the train deal and it was put on hold before the City purchased all the other properties on the other side of
First Ave


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Mtown View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mtown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2010 at 8:03am
Another example of MiddletownUSA regulars making statements and accusations that have absolutely no basis in fact. Hermes, why do you think it is acceptable to just make things up. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2010 at 8:31am
Mtown
You are more than welcome to provide PROOF that any of my statements are incorrect at any time and post the information on this blog.

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wasteful View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wasteful Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2010 at 9:18am
Yes and Mtown or mtown why don't you tell us the burning reasons that everyone from Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, Cincy and all points in between were going to rush to hop a train for Middletown. 
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Hermes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2010 at 11:30am
Originally posted by Mtown Mtown wrote:

Another example of MiddletownUSA regulars making statements and accusations that have absolutely no basis in fact. Hermes, why do you think it is acceptable to just make things up. You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.
 
Mtown if you have evidence to the contrary then post it,you come on here and run your chops as if your some big intellectual but you never provide proof to back up your claims.
 
Until you provide that proof and prove me wrong I can say anything and state any facts I deem worthy.
 
 
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Mtown View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mtown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2010 at 5:06pm
Hermes
If you paid any attention at all you would know the land swap deal was done with Duncan Oil to facilitate a redevelopment of the area. If the
3C rail project had occurred it would have been an even better project. However, the project was independent of the rail project. I am a property owner in the area and am directly familiar with the details related to this particular project and they are also a matter of public record.

You accusation about the 3C component of the project is completely inaccurate and false.
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randy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote randy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2010 at 5:28pm
Mtown, that is BS and you know it!!! Was the deal done with the intent of building a new shamrock station? Sure it was. But the underlining deal was so the city could improve upon the train station downtown. Had those city leaders known for sure the train was never comng, this deal would have never happened.
 
You act as if you are the only person with facts or contacts in this city, when infact you are not. I speak to council members almost daily and other city officials on a regular. And the fact is the deal was based on the train coming. Now that it is not coming you are scrambling to protect your buddies for jumping the gun on this. Fraid you are too late for that. Also you are not the only one that owns property in that area.
Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2010 at 5:33pm
Mtown- you'll have to admit, at the same time the story came out in the Journal that the high speed train proposal for Middletown was the topic, a story also came out telling us about the Duncan Oil idea, new gas station deal, Revelos building teardown, old Office Outfitters building teardown, gas station teardown occurred. It is no coincidence that all of these activities ocurred around the same time and centered on the basic "train coming to Middletown" premise. Are you sure that this didn't have anything to do with and was "totally independent of the rail project" as you claim? Sure seems like it is connected. Sure seemed to happen around the same time.
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Hermes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2010 at 7:28pm

I retract my above statement and issue a public apology to Mtown. If I post without providing proof and then expect everyone else who post to provide proof is very wrong of me. My statement was out of line.

But as Randy stated above and in other postings on the board the intentions of the city concerning the land swap with Shamrock was in fact for the purpose of expecting the train to stop here. That was the whole purpose to the deal,the city leaders got excited when they heard the train might stop here and were preparing for it by making a deal with Shamrock in order to get that parcel of land. Now the city owns a little piece of nondescript land that will no doubt sit there doing nothing. And it further reinforces my statement that the people who run this city,and it's not only city council,are totally incompetent.
 
Mtown,if you know something that MUSA members don't know then share it with us. You defeat the whole purpose of this forum by making snide comments about what members post and then you don't really share anything. All your doing is attacking us and that just makes everyone take guard and raises anger. I'm sure Randy has probably thought about banning you from posting but why let it get that far ?
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Mtown View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mtown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2010 at 8:20pm
Hermes, as an "advanced" member why would you make a broad generalization and state it as fact? You did it again in your response. The land swap was driven by redevelopment not connected to the rail issue. The rail project was a potential additional benefit of the swap.

The Duncan Oil development and desire to clear the site of the former gas station was the driving force behind the swap.

The problem I have with many of the contributors to this site is the strong tendency for negativity based on, at best, loose facts and very often untrue statements.
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Bill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2010 at 8:48pm
Mr. Kohler, um I mean "Mtown", you don't expect as to believe that do you?  With the snail's pace of any kind of development in this town, it is an extreme coincidence that the Duncan deal occurred when it did.  By "extreme" I mean not a chance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2010 at 9:20pm
Ok Mtown, we'll play your game here. Leaving the frickkin' train issue out of the equation, tell us exactly what the plan was for redevelopment in this area WITHOUT THE TRAIN IDEA INCLUDED. What was suppose to go in where the gas station was located? Who was suppose to occupy the space created with the old Office Outfitters location? What was the intention of the land swap and what was suppose to happen around the train station?

Explain for our understanding. There...nothing negative. No "loose facts" or "untrue statements".....just questions to answer for our benefit.

You're up. Let's hear the facts from you.
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Mtown View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mtown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 7:55am
The land between Central and First will be redeveloped into a retail center (Duncan Oil). The former gas station will remain green space as part of a downtown gateway enhancement and the former Office Outfitters site will be used for commercial development.

I just didn't make this up. It is in the downtown plan which as a downtown property owner I participated in the development of along with many downtown stakeholders.

Get the facts Hermes, do a little research and quit the armchair theorizing. I'm not sure but I think the downtown plan is available on the City's website.
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Paul Nagy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Nagy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 9:46am
Mtown (Martytown),
       You are the last person to tell Hermes or anyone else to get their facts straight. You haven't had your facts straight for years. 
 
       " It is in the downtown plan which as a downtown property owner I participated in the development of along with many other downtown stakeholders".
 
       What makes you and the "other stakeholders" downtown so special? You have just admitted that you and the others have manipulated, manuvered and stolen tax money for your downtown special interests over the rights of the rest of the city. The millions of dollars that have been and continue to be spent downtown have just been wasted because of your lack of research and business knowledge. Also, while ignoring all of the needs of the rest of the city. You have been crooked at best and you should resign or be thrown out immediately. The damage you have done to this city is beyond calculation. You have repeatedly failed because you didn't get the facts at taxpayers expense.
 
         The nerve of you telling Hermes to get the facts and do a little research. Why you armchair theorizer,
you are a total failure when it comes to honest, competent city development . God grant us a thousand more Hermes Theorizers.
          Paul Nagy
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Hermes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 9:51am
Mtown - I do research and when time permits I attend meetings and I know others on here that do the same and a few that go great lengths to obtain factual information. And I did in fact take a look at the city website on the development of the RR area. (depot & old gas station site)
 
The train depot land and this includes the former Shamrock lot is listed as light industrial. Table 2.4 principle F states the following : Establish downtown Middeltown as a station on the proposed statewide passenger railway.
 
Now,this could not be done with Duncan Oil still maintaining that small lot next to the depot. So the city,in order to obtain that entire plot of land made a deal with Duncan Oil to relocate so the city could expand on that parcel of land for the passenger train. Now if you want to call it redevelopment thats fine,but the real reason was for the 3-C rail stop. If you are a business owner as you state you are either extremely naive or very misinformed.
 
If you look back over the year on this forum under economic development you'll see the conversations that took place concerning this very topic and I myself refered to the 3-C as a boondoggle and what the city was about to do was based on pure speculation because nothing was established as of yet to confirm that the 3-C was even going to come through Middeltown. But the city jumped on the bandwagon and started the talk that the train was indeed coming and hence the land swap deal with Duncan. All of this is common sense deduction,it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what the city was up to.
 
And if I recall correctly the city wanted everything from the depot going south to Divers. They wanted all that land !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mtown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 10:15am
Not sure where you get your information Hermes or if you just make it up. But in fact the rail depot was going to be extended north not south. I know this because I talked to the City about it as someone that owns property to the south in the area of First St.

The gas station site was always intended to be green space as part of the gateway enhancement. Not sure what it is zoned but you and I know that doesn't really matter.

Your common sense deduction is as usual flawed. I know it is hard for you and other MiddletownUSA speculators to admit it, but when you make up facts you will eventually discredited.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 10:39am
[QUOTE=Mtown] The land between Central and First will be redeveloped into a retail center (Duncan Oil). The former gas station will remain green space as part of a downtown gateway enhancement and the former Office Outfitters site will be used for commercial development.

The whole block-Duncan Oil- a "retail center" you say? One lousy store selling gas, a few candy bars, some coffee, and a dam Twinkie. Employees making 6 bucks an hour no doubt. And, a gas station less that a quarter of a mile away at the point of Central at First, within earshot of this "retail center". One lousy store does not make a retail CENTER, buck. Is that the best you people can do in bringing in new business? Gas stations selling candy bars and coffee and pawn shops? Mercy! Mtown, you and other city believers are pros at embellishing the real situation.

"and the former Office Outfitters site will be used for commercial development"- again, nothing for sure planned, just speculation and dreams. Just purchase the dam property and "hope" something will happen at this location. If Office Outfitters didn't last, what makes the econ. dev. department think anything has changed to enhance the chances of success. Not enough traffic flow on Clark and Manchester to justify placing a business there. This location has been dead since the 70's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 10:44am
Mtown, I shouldn't bother, as your flaws in debate are so ooverwhelmingly fatal, but for my own levity, I'll enter into the fray. By your own admission you state "was", "will", and "to be". Those are terms of endearment in speculation, inneuendo, not facts.
 
You really cannot be taken seriously my online friend. The former Shamrock facilitate was clearly acquired on a "hope and prayer", my mother's term, for wishful thinking knowing failure was a higher possibility than success. A "gateway" to the beauty of the city of Middletown? That' has about as much credibility and factual beleif as those who think Doug McNeil's desire to move the hospital out of Middletown and consolidate with a major network since he became CEO 20 years ago was a positive aspect of his legacy, while leaving the area downtown and Middletown in shambles.
 
I realize I make many mistakes in typing rapidly, and normally don't split hairs, but the term is "brownfield" not "green field" for the wrecking ball mess dowtown. That significance is not to be simplified: developers would much prefer new land near major roads and highways, that was farmland and never developed, than failed commercial utilization that was a bust.
 
To date, from my casual review, I see nothing of factual substance you have posted, and virtually all your points are speculative in nature, and highly defensive of the unconscionable waste and mismanagement tied to projects which have a benefit to a select few.
 
Please stick around. I get as much humor and levity from your ramblings as I do watching 30 Rock.        
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 11:19am
OK Mtown--I am supposed to be out of here, however you either came into the mix mid-stream, or have been a very minor player in the years of propert y-shuffling on this project. You have conveniently twisted the facts to make your point. I couldn't pass this up.
 
Duncan initially acquired the former Office Outfitter property and connected real estate to develop their fuel center convenient store on that property. Finkleman group held out on a very small connecting strip adjacent to get a nice windfall since their property was necessary, and the muffler shop never did play along like the city wanted. Duncan decided not to invest at that site. I was asked if I wanted to take over the project or manage the facility if built. I declined, since I would have been competing with myself. Subsequently I was offered that property often, with the price dropping to near nothing. Duncan failed to deliver on their promise at that location. MAYBE they caught wind of the proposed train concept and were advised to hold out for the much better location between Central and 1st Ave.
 
City then did an about-face during the rail hysteria, "purchasing" the Office Outfitter site, the Clark station site(combined for over $300,000--ridiculous over-payment and poor use of city funds) so that Duncan could use the funds(+ govt.grant/subsidy $$??) to "purchase" the prior mentioned Central/1st property for approx. $400,000-$500,000. The former Office Outfitter site was then slated to be a very expensive parking lot for train passengers etc.
 
As to who payed for the property demos at the Office Outfitter site, Clark site and Rec Center site--I am not clear. Maybe you or someone else can honestly answer that ??. And at what cost.
 
So--you need to go back to the BEGINNING of the land-swaps and property shuffling, add up the city manpower and grant expense, the TOTAL amount of cost for ALL properties involved, city/state/fed demo expenses, maintenence costs incurred on properties(many parcels dormant) and future grant/subsidies necessary for construction at these various sites, including plans/expenses/bail-outs for your Whistle Stop "train station", the credit union property, the muffler shop and the new "green space" which is worthless but an on-going maintenence expense.
 
When I guesstimated the on-going and future expense of the overall dealings at between 1 mii and 2 mill, you tried to get at me by "outing" me(lol--far too late!) and calling me a "liar" repeatedly. When you add the total costs of everything mention and involved long-term + the costs that I can't remember or don't know about, just what $ amount do you see?
 
You talk down to us as not being positive and doing nothing, however you seem to do the same and worse. Very hypocritical trolling. Negative, mean and inaccurate imo.  
 
Do you or your business own the Whistle Stop?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 11:44am
sj, thank you for the FACTUAL history associated with this failed effort associated with the "whistle blowing." Middletown wold have been at the kaboose end anyway.
 
(i) I hope your reference about out of here wasn't you are leaving what you provide in this forum, always informative and helpful
 
(ii) You consoider running for office, you won't find a bigger supporter than me, check book, otherwise.
 
(iii) How about a sneek in the sunshine---I have some insight from Posey associated with LM and the "glass house" that those whom throw rocks should desire to avoid. Younger indiscretions can come back to bite.
 
(iv) Looking forward to the venue at MUM in January, need something to restore sanity and escape hatch for a few hours. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mtown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 11:56am
Spider, spider, spider, you are perhaps the most delusional of all the MiddletownUSA regulars. I know a little more than you on this because of my business relationship with the former owners of the Jacks Rec and Revelos property.

The City didn't purchase the Office Outfitters and former gas station site. The City purchased the Jacks Rec and Revelos property. The City then exchanged the property they acquired with Duncan Oil. As part of the exchange Duncan Oil cleared all the property.

All you have to do Spider is spend a little more time doing research and a little less time armchair theorizing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 12:38pm
Mtown - I'm not real sure what your purpose is here,I do know it's not to participate & indulge in intelligent conversation and to help shed light on the problems that seem to spew from city hall like a volcano.
 
If you think it's fun to antagonize members of this board it's not really working and all your doing is making a fool out of yourself. If you scroll back up you said in your post the exact same thing I posted prior ! (different words but same meaning) Your not fooling anyone here except yourself.
 
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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