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Property registration proposal

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2012 at 10:58am
Someone needs to pull their head out of the crooks(city leaders) a$$es.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greygoose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2012 at 12:18pm
LMAO, I didn't know you were being literal...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2012 at 8:15pm
I have to agree with GG 100%, As far as the section 8 program and the cost to run it the Federal Government pays, the last time I checked, between $50-$60 per month per voucher in use.  So what it cost to run the program is really immaterial as the feds pick up the bill.  The City is also paid a portion of these funds which last I heard was about 22%.  As far as mowing grass and chargin $150.00, I say good for the city.  Even though I believe they do not get to collect most of these funds.  What the money is used for if it is collected, I do not know, but I'm sure if you enquire The City will tell you where the money goes too. 

GG's above post is spot on. 

PacmanCool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2012 at 6:11am
Pacman....

"As far as the section 8 program and the cost to run it the Federal Government pays, the last time I checked, between $50-$60 per month per voucher in use. So what it cost to run the program is really immaterial as the feds pick up the bill"

THAT IS CORRECT PAC. THE COST IS THE SUBJECT OF THIS DISCUSSION AND IS IMPORTANT. WHAT IS EQUALLY IMPORTANT, IMO, IS THE ABUNDANCE OF SECTION 8 THAT HAS BEEN INVITED TO LIVE IN THIS TOWN AND THE NEGATIVE IMPLICATIONS FROM THAT OVERABUNDANCE. I CAN SEE NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER, IN INVITING SUBSIDIZED HOUSING TO THIS TOWN OTHER THAN AS A REVENUE GENERATOR FOR THE CITY.........BUT AT WHAT PRICE TO OUR IMAGE, OUR PROGRESS IN CORRECTING ALL THE THINGS THAT ARE WRONG WITH THIS CITY AND AT WHAT PRICE AS IT RELATES TO INCREASED CRIME AND THE ATTRACTION OF THE CRIMINAL ELEMENT FROM OTHER TOWNS? STEREOTYPICALLY, THIS SEGMENT OF SOCIETY CREATES MORE PROBLEMS THAN WHAT IT IS WORTH. THE VOUCHER PROGRAM NEEDS TO BE REDUCED TO THE CORRECT NUMBER FOR THIS CITY. RATHER THAN 1662, IT SHOULD BE MORE LIKE 700 OR SO. WONDER WHAT THE NUMBERS ARE IN CRIME IN THE AREAS OF SECTION 8? HOW MANY DRUG RELATED CALLS, HOW MANY DOMESTIC DISPUTES, HOW MANY WEAPONS RELATED INCIDENTS HAVE THE POLICE BEEN CALLED ON SINCE WE STARTED THIS GHETTO DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM? WHY ASK FOR THIS AS A CITY LEADER?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2012 at 10:36am

Vivian,
At Pacman’s suggestion, I went back and read many of the historical posts on this board. In doing so, I learned a great deal more about our city, its issues, and its leaders. I also gained more respect from this board’s participants (I even watched the video of you “torching” city council over their misdeeds concerning the cemetery). However, you lose credibility (at least in my eyes) when you make statements as though they are fact when they are nothing more than an opinion. Quite frankly, I don’t think that some of the statements are even your opinion……. they are meant to “incite” others.
Thank you Greygoose for thinking that I have such great power of persuasion over others but I believe it was statements made by Mr. Adkins that “Incited” the 100 plus landlords to show up at the last council meeting.

1. You state that it is a known fact that Mr. Adkins is going to model the program after the current Section 8 program. Who knows about this “fact” other than you? I respect your researching abilities. Where did you dig up this “fact”? It doesn’t make since to me.
Because it is what Mr. Adkins has stated.
He has stated that the tracking software will be like the program now being used for Section 8 program. The data base will include all the information on the landlord, property and copies of the inspections as they are completed so he can push the magic bottom and have all the information at his finger tips...
The Mr. Adkins that I know would like nothing more than to get rid of the Section 8 in our city. He is on record that the “Section 8 model” is costing the city money. Why would he want to duplicate it?
This was the opinion of Mr. Adkins in his 96 page report…It is NOT the opinion of HUD in their answer to Mr. Adkins report.
 
2. Nobody, including you, thinks that a landlord registration program is really going to cost more than four times the Section 8 program. Common sense tells me that the high cost of the Section 8 program is directly proportional to the subsidy that the federal government pays to support it. It's sad, but that is the way government programs work.
NO…it is my opinion that a $25 registration fee or $185,000 a year will not fund this rental registration program therefore the city  will need to charge an additional fee for any and all inspections.
First you have the cost of the advanced tracking software.
At a minimum he will need to hire one person for data entry and scheduling of inspections and three inspectors plus autos if they require a yearly inspection of each rental unit if he uses city employees.
.
This is a simple math problem…You have 7,500 units to inspect annually or about 29 units per day. An average inspection takes about 15 to 30 minutes depending on the size and the condition of the property. Then you have drive time between each inspection then add in time for any re-inspections.

3.  I’m not sure what you are talking about when you state “what is known” and “the numbers provided by the city”. What is there to know that you don’t know? What numbers are you looking for? The program is a concept at this point in time. I feel comfortable that we will learn more as the program is put together. My comfort stems from the fact that there will be a handful of private citizens (landlords) on the committee. I will give you this…… based on what I have learned from reading historical posts on this site, the city has way too many financial accounts and it is way too easy for them to move the money from one to another. I am not comfortable that city leaders always have our best interests at heart when they spend these funds.
Yep that’s just what we need is another city hand picked committee.
I guess we will meet back here in 90 days and compare notes.

 
4. You make it sound like collecting money from “deadbeat” property owners is a bad thing. My educated guess is the city is not collecting on many of these charges because, you guessed it, they can’t compel many non-resident property owner to comply because they can't be "served". If you are a local land owner, you deserve to pay 2.5 times the cost of mowing if you are too sorry to take care of it yourself. As for “where does the money go”, I have no idea but assume that this information is a public record and available to you if you really want to see it.
No…you seem to believe the city spin that they can do NOTHING to solve many of the property problems. I gave you an example that they do have the tools and have used them and even made a profit from them.
If they want to serve notice on an out of town non compliant property owner they could use a processor server…and it is a matter of record they have successfully used this method in the past.
 
I think that people like you, VV, Pacman, MikeP, acclaro, Spider, etc. are invaluable to a city like Middletown. The city leaders know that you are out there looking over their shoulders and will hold them accountable if they don't “do the right things” for the citizens that they represent. Sensationalizing your viewpoint gets you nowhere in my book and, in my opinion, will cause the city's leadership to take you less seriously.

On a separate note…… does anyone know what landlords have been chosen to participate on the registration committee?
No

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greygoose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2012 at 12:32pm
Vivian,
At Pacman’s suggestion, I went back and read many of the historical posts on this board. In doing so, I learned a great deal more about our city, its issues, and its leaders. I also gained more respect from this board’s participants (I even watched the video of you “torching” city council over their misdeeds concerning the cemetery). However, you lose credibility (at least in my eyes) when you make statements as though they are fact when they are nothing more than an opinion. Quite frankly, I don’t think that some of the statements are even your opinion……. they are meant to “incite” others.
Thank you Greygoose for thinking that I have such great power of persuasion over others but I believe it was statements made by Mr. Adkins that “Incited” the 100 plus landlords to show up at the last council meeting.
I’m not sure what incited the landlords’ response. I watched the video of when Mr. Adkins first broached the subject and didn’t see anything “inciting”.

1. You state that it is a known fact that Mr. Adkins is going to model the program after the current Section 8 program. Who knows about this “fact” other than you? I respect your researching abilities. Where did you dig up this “fact”? It doesn’t make since to me.
Because it is what Mr. Adkins has stated.
He has stated that the tracking software will be like the program now being used for Section 8 program. The data base will include all the information on the landlord, property and copies of the inspections as they are completed so he can push the magic bottom and have all the information at his finger tips...

I think that it would make more sense to use the same software. The city may have to pay additional licensing fees but fees associated with additional uses are usually nominal.

The Mr. Adkins that I know would like nothing more than to get rid of the Section 8 in our city. He is on record that the “Section 8 model” is costing the city money. Why would he want to duplicate it?
This was the opinion of Mr. Adkins in his 96 page report…It is NOT the opinion of HUD in their answer to Mr. Adkins report.
But it is Mr. Adkins that is trying to put this program together. HUD has no involvement and their opinion is not relevant to this matter.

2. Nobody, including you, thinks that a landlord registration program is really going to cost more than four times the Section 8 program. Common sense tells me that the high cost of the Section 8 program is directly proportional to the subsidy that the federal government pays to support it. It's sad, but that is the way government programs work.
NO…it is my opinion that a $25 registration fee or $185,000 a year will not fund this rental registration program therefore the city will need to charge an additional fee for any and all inspections.
First you have the cost of the advanced tracking software.
At a minimum he will need to hire one person for data entry and scheduling of inspections and three inspectors plus autos if they require a yearly inspection of each rental unit if he uses city employees..
This is a simple math problem…You have 7,500 units to inspect annually or about 29 units per day. An average inspection takes about 15 to 30 minutes depending on the size and the condition of the property. Then you have drive time between each inspection then add in time for any re-inspections.

Thank you for stating that the above paragraphs are your OPINION. I invite opinions.
In my opinion….. if you have “advanced” software, you don’t need a data entry person. The simple math to me equates to a maximum of 2 inspectors……each one inspects 15 units per work day. At 20 minutes per inspection (being generous), there is plenty of time for travel and data entry (at the site). In my opinion, the cost of re-inspections should be self-sustaining. If an inspector has to go back due to code violations, the landlord should have to pay that expense. However, I am not advocating that it become a profit center for the city.


3. I’m not sure what you are talking about when you state “what is known” and “the numbers provided by the city”. What is there to know that you don’t know? What numbers are you looking for? The program is a concept at this point in time. I feel comfortable that we will learn more as the program is put together. My comfort stems from the fact that there will be a handful of private citizens (landlords) on the committee. I will give you this…… based on what I have learned from reading historical posts on this site, the city has way too many financial accounts and it is way too easy for them to move the money from one to another. I am not comfortable that city leaders always have our best interests at heart when they spend these funds.
Yep that’s just what we need is another city hand picked committee.
I guess we will meet back here in 90 days and compare notes.

Would you be OK with the handpicked committee if it contained the landlords that spoke out against the legislation at the council meeting?

4. You make it sound like collecting money from “deadbeat” property owners is a bad thing. My educated guess is the city is not collecting on many of these charges because, you guessed it, they can’t compel many non-resident property owner to comply because they can't be "served". If you are a local land owner, you deserve to pay 2.5 times the cost of mowing if you are too sorry to take care of it yourself. As for “where does the money go”, I have no idea but assume that this information is a public record and available to you if you really want to see it.
No…you seem to believe the city spin that they can do NOTHING to solve many of the property problems. I gave you an example that they do have the tools and have used them and even made a profit from them.
If they want to serve notice on an out of town non compliant property owner they could use a processor server…and it is a matter of record they have successfully used this method in the past.

I agree that the city should be doing more, but how do you serve an LLC with a post office box? I’m sure that it can probably be done, but at what time, effort, and expense?

I think that people like you, VV, Pacman, MikeP, acclaro, Spider, etc. are invaluable to a city like Middletown. The city leaders know that you are out there looking over their shoulders and will hold them accountable if they don't “do the right things” for the citizens that they represent. Sensationalizing your viewpoint gets you nowhere in my book and, in my opinion, will cause the city's leadership to take you less seriously.

On a separate note…… does anyone know what landlords have been chosen to participate on the registration committee?
No
I’ve heard that the city is going to invite some of those that spoke out against the legislation to participate as members of the committee. If true, I would think that any thought of “inside baseball” would be eliminated. If it’s not true, the city should consider it.

As you stated, we will have to compare notes in 90 days….. do you want to bet lunch?
"If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2012 at 10:21pm
Vet,
 
I Agree with you 100%.  The actual # of vouchers in the city should be between 400-500.  I also believe this was a money generator for the city as you state.  But my above post delt with the cost to administer the section 8 program and who pays for it.

The section 8 program in Middletown which far exceeds the # of vouchers this city should have, has many detriments that go along with it.  This city schools have a reduce lunch program in which about 72% of the students participate.  this is a measure of the poverty in the school system.  The last time I counted,  about 1850 students came from the 1662 vouchers.  This amounted to about 1/3 of the schools population.  The other 4500 students came from the remaining what(?) 20,000 homes.  I am just as frustrated as you by the fact that we are inudated with section 8 properties.  The last time I checked we had about 1 section 8 voucher for every 30 residents.  I have yet to find any other city in the US that has a ratio of this magnitude.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 4:00am
Pacman
It is both the number of Public Housing Units, Section 8 and our declining population that have upset the natural balance of our city. Then the City made the areas even worse by diverting the money away from the areas that needed it most.
We need our population to increase by 10,000 with high wage earners to stop the decline.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 1:40pm
greygoose: As you stated, we will have to compare notes in 90 days….. do you want to bet lunch?
Hey I will bet you Breakfest,lunch and Dinner that I wont pay this "GREAT" City a single dime to register my properties since they are already register with the county.Be alot cheaper dont yea think if they just look them up on the County website?Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greygoose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 5:17pm
LMAO..... you will register.
"If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greygoose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 5:19pm
oooops..... you will register or they will register you. You will be registered.
"If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2012 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by greygoose greygoose wrote:

oooops..... you will register or they will register you. You will be registered.
They might do that but trying to get the fee will be hard to do.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2012 at 10:14pm
Vivian,

The amount of funds that HUD gives the city will never make a dent in the problems of wards 1 & 2.  I agree with the rest of your post, the only way Middletown will save itself is to draw in Middle income residents.  The city has no focus, no vision, and no sense of direction.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 5:44am

Pacman
I’m not sure that I agree with your dent statement. I believe if these funds had been focused on the areas of need we could have made a BIG DENT in these problem areas. 
You would be shocked at the total amount of HUD Funds that have flowed through the doors of City Hall since 2000.
The rest of the problem occurred because of poor city planning by placing too many large low income properties in a saturated area.  

NO LEADERSHIP, NO PLAN, NO VISION, NO FOCUS = FAILURE

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greygoose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 09 2012 at 10:58am
No brain matter = stupid     No heart = coward
"If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2012 at 8:21am

Acting City Manager’s

Weekly Briefing

June 18, 2012

Rental Property Registration and Vacant Property Registration

Two committees consisting of City staff and community members have been

formed to discuss possible solutions to recurring problems with some rental

and/or vacant properties in the City. By including property owners and City staff cooperative work can be done to deal with these issues. Both committees are scheduled to have their first meetings in the next few weeks

Why would you need two separate committees to discuss this problem?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote greygoose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2012 at 11:39am
Ms. Viv,

I agree that a single committee could handle it. I can only assume that the city is looking at it as two issues; landlord registration being one and abandoned properties being the other. The committeee dealing with abandoned properties may not have any local landlords on it. Just a guess on my part.

GG
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 23 2012 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by Vivian Moon Vivian Moon wrote:

Acting City Manager’s

Weekly Briefing

June 18, 2012

Rental Property Registration and Vacant Property Registration

Two committees consisting of City staff and community members have been

formed to discuss possible solutions to recurring problems with some rental

and/or vacant properties in the City. By including property owners and City staff cooperative work can be done to deal with these issues. Both committees are scheduled to have their first meetings in the next few weeks

Why would you need two separate committees to discuss this problem?

They can  form all the committees as they want but I still wont pay the crooked,spineless ones a dime.Doesnt make a bit of sense cos as I have said before,my properties are registered with the butler county.Cant help it that the crooks cant manage their money.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 05 2012 at 6:12am
Hey Middletown 29.....here's some positive news!!

Landlords, city come to an accord on rental registration

MIDDLETOWN —
Landlords in the community and city officials have agreed a rental property registration ordinance — which would have charged fees — won’t be necessary.

A committee of city staff and landlords have met a few times since May to discuss middle ground that will allow the city to keep track of unresponsive property owners and not require what landlords had called unnecessary bureaucracy that would have harmed those who follow city regulations.

“It became apparent that to meet the needs that we were looking at, a full-blown rental registration-type legislation that had been seen in other places was not needed to meet the goals that were identified by the committee,” said Middletown Law Director Les Landen.

The committee agreed: there would be no comprehensive local rental registration ordinance; lists of rental property owners would be formed through utility bills; the city would promote the county’s registration program; stakeholders and the city will encourage property maintenance; and there will be an ongoing communication bridge between landlords and the city.

A key recommendation is the communication bridge.

“If we communicate on the front end, we may be able to prevent some of the back end problems we see every year,” Landen said.

There you go 29. Ole Leslie Landen and company made a good choice. Positive feedback for the city from your old "Negative Nemesis"....The Vet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Middletown29 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 05 2012 at 6:23am
I knew you could do it Vet.
Keep up the balanced perspective.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Analytical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 14 2017 at 3:53pm
Spider John -

Your timely post of 5/27/2012 sadly rings true 5.5 years later.  During this time, owner-occupied dwelling units
declined, population declined, renter-occupied dwelling units increased, residential property demolitions
mushroomed, "downtown" redevelopment deals expanded because of virtual give-away's of city-owned real
estate/tax abatements/direct financial subsidies plus an increased number/percentage of poverty level
income households.  One important remaining question is:  what will Middletown look like five years from
now in 2022 or ten years from now in 2017?

Originally posted by spiderjohn spiderjohn wrote:


thanx 4 the insight, mr.goose
hope that u don't get cooked
Informative and thought-provoking.
40% rentals in a town of this size is incredible.
Even more incredible is the metamorphosis that brought us to those figures.
I have lived here for my entire life--went through the public school system k-12,
and have been in business locally throughout.
 
I can't accept the concept that our own local govt. has long-term led us into this situation
simply to pad their pockets, their cronies' pockets, and to provide long-term job/bennie security.
 
I also rate the current and last Councils as being the most destructive in my memory.
Add in the direction of Admin, and we have a very citizen/business unfriendly situation
If you are small, local or retail, Economic Development doesn't exist. You are merely here to pay the city piper for countless over-regulatory legalities and little to no support or services.
 
I am the owner of an 86yo business that has thrived locally until the last decade.
I have survived every kind of competition imaginable, however I can no longer win vs. the current levels of small crime and the demographic rate of poverty. Living wage jobs don't exist here. Quality of life shopping/entertainment options are few and far between here. No one with anything going for them is going to move here.
 
I live in a reasonably upscale neighborhood, yet the home next to me has been vacant for over two years.
It is in serious dis-repair and completely over-grown. The city has ignored the situation.
 
I operated two businesses in  once-thriving strip centers.. The first went vacant, and I operated there 30 years as the only business in a center that looks like something out of bombed-out Baghdad. I went through countless ED directors who promised tenants within 6 months. Never heard from any of those ED people again. All packed up and left.
 
I also operated in another once-thriving retail center which is currently following the same course. Didn't like what I sensibly had to do, I took my losses and vacated both locations. Didn't need to go through the decline twice. Local businesses are on their knees like never before, and competition has nothing to do with their problems. Thefts, break-ins, vandalism,and low-income demographics are more than small businesses can over-come when it goes on for as long as it has(and will continue) here.
 
I have had enough of our Council and Administration.
I have no faith in either of them.
I don't trust them, and don't agree/approve with their actions.
My only method of recourse is to starve them into submission via the ballot box.
I will not support them on any issues until I see serious about-face change (I don't see it coming from this group). Tear this system down, and re-build from the ground up. Painful but necessary.
 
Mr.Adkins?
Maybe what he is doing now is necessary to begin the journey back to where we need to be.
I don't see anything else moving us towards prosperity. It surely won't be art galleries and property giveaways and a pipe dream about an area that no longer has any significance in our recovery.
 
A few years ago, we were told that the east end was our salvation.
That situation has blown apart, and never gets a mention any more.
An embarrassing entrance to our community, now book-ended by the never-ending re-do on the western front.
 
Can we stick with something until we get it right?
 
jm bitter o
end of rant
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spiderjohn View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
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Joined: Jul 01 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2749
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 14 2017 at 4:56pm
more hopeful than bitter now
the "sell-off/shut down" process was painful and I let it show back then

That feeling went away
I will work towards our future and am willing to contribute many ways

Admin/Council??
Hopefully getting it right to make one united town working forward in every corner--but still has to show me(and probably many others still left here)

no rant
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