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Wednesday, April 17, 2024 |
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MORE LEVIES FOR FIXING ROADS |
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TonyB
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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Posted: Feb 19 2015 at 10:28am |
Don't we have an "add on" in Middletown? Why would the tax rate be lower in West Chester if that were true?Or am I thinking of income tax? Whichever it is, that is what needs to be lowered to bring Middletown more in line with other local communities.
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Observer
MUSA Immigrant Joined: Dec 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 46 |
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TonyB - I could be wrong but isn't the sales tax rate decided by County Commissioners?
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Trotwood
MUSA Resident Joined: Jul 22 2013 Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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That they are! But thanks for taking time to reply, Vivian Moon.. I do appreciate your input. I should have specified earlier with Activated Spaces that the program does not require city ownership of the properties in question. In fact, it's the opposite - the city works with landlords to allow new clients to pay a next-to-nothing rate for space as they are getting off the ground. Sure, the city may have to pay certain subsidies/offer loans to the businesses at onset, but that doesn't mean the city cannot recoup these payments via taxation, loan collection, etc. But I would argue this program could not be successful without a well-targeted nationwide marketing campaign. The best and brightest in industries relevant to Middletown need to occupy these spaces. And that can only happen with effective communication of what exactly Middletown could offer a budding entrepreneur. For the Section 8... yeah, I bet you're right that there is a need for more of it. Middletown is becoming a magnet for these kind of residents. But Section 8 can, if implemented well, be like this example in Dayton's notoriously impoverished southwest district: |
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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There's just one little problem with a 50-year paving plan: The average pavement life is only 15 to 25 years!!!
With a 50-year paving plan it is guaranteed that at any time in the 50 year cycle, at least 50% of the pavement in the city will be well past (25 years or more) its service life. |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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TonyB
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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Vivian:
Thanks but those are Trotwood's ideas, not mine! |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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1. Clean up litter on streets and in medians. Strictly
enforce yard care requirements. Draft a tougher zoning code,
get it passed, and hire enough citizens patrol to enforce it (note that I'm not
saying "Police" - you'd want cheaper people with less power to do the
job). Look to
2. Acquire vacant retail/commercial properties and start
a pop-up shops program like this one instead of demolishing them:
http://www.activatedspaces.org/ NO! City Hall does not
have the money to purchase any more property. City Hall already owns far too
many properties and all of them need to be turned over to local real estate
agents to sell. Contact information needs to be placed in the window of each
and every empty building that the city owns. Because the contract that they have written on the other
downtown building were a joke imo. The end result should be
like this: http://www.downtowndayton.org/ the current development plans. 4. Ask UC, Tony, I believe they did a study however I do not know what
the ED is doing to recruit new businesses so I will have to pass on this one. 7. Actively recruit Rural King to fill the former Target space. This is probably my most narrow request, but it's also the easiest. Economically speaking, Rural King and I believe Target needs to handle this job since it is their building. 8. SCHOOLS!!! Look to Hamilton and Kettering as a model. Somehow TAXES and our SCHOOLS are the two greatest reasons why |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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February 8, 1911
Wednesday Lakeside people are waking up to the fact, that,
possessed of one of the most beautiful drives in the city of Middletown, Tytus
avenue should not be marred by inferior paving material and will make their
desires known, to the council committee, having the question in charge. |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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TonyB
I will answer all 10 of your request in the morning...however I'm not sure you will like all the answers. |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Factguy-Both were excellent responses. Doug Adkins efforts to modify the ordinances will make the city more business friendly. The city has been collecting for years a set amount for sewers and the EPA concerns, so that also is a check. On the ward system, having an at large system with a reduced number, accelerates the bimonthly meetings and also was logical as the population was shrinking. Admittedly, many share your opinion, as those having issues within a ward are under represented as they see it. As one council attempted unsuccessfully to get the ordinance change, the prospects of making that a reality are not bright.
Factguy...where are you getting your information from? Please do inform the public about the amount of money that as of this date that is in the sewer fund that they have been collecting for years. I have heard enough lies out of you. So if you are soooo well inform give us the numbers... This like all the other city funds has been raped, raided and robbed......and now we do not have the money to repair and seperate the sewers. We are talking MILLIONS of dollars have simply disappeared. Now we will need to BORROW MILLIONS to even start this project. So show me your numbers and I'll show you mine....It's time for you to either put up or shut up and sit down. |
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Factguy
MUSA Resident Joined: Dec 07 2009 Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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Both were excellent responses. Doug Adkins efforts to modify the ordinances will make the city more business friendly. The city has been collecting for years a set amount for sewers and the EPA concerns, so that also is a check. On the ward system, having an at large system with a reduced number, accelerates the bimonthly meetings and also was logical as the population was shrinking. Admittedly, many share your opinion, as those having issues within a ward are under represented as they see it. As one council attempted unsuccessfully to get the ordinance change, the prospects of making that a reality are not bright.
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TonyB
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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Factguy:
I see you made it as far as "2" on your list. Don't have anything else to add or don't want to let the cat out of the bag yet? 1. Not knowing the revenues of the city would make placing a definitive amount on road repair simply a wish. That being said, I would certainly repeal the 1986 ordinance that put infrastructure repair into the general fund. That should shorten the time for road repair. 2. Vivian Moon is absolutely correct when she states the biggest problem (and most expensive) is the sewers. That needs to be addressed with a sustainable and consistent revenue stream. 3. Get out and stay out of the real estate business. Stop buying property and then giving it away! 4. The city sales tax needs to be reduced so that Middletown isn't one of the highest tax cities in the area. 5. Stop the interference in business. Way too much interference and pointless ordinances. 6. Disband the Historical Appropriateness Board. 7. Improve the school system. Partner with business and social orgainzations to improve learning. Opt out en mass of this idiotic testing program. 8. Public safety and health should be given priority over government run economic development. 9. Return council to the ward system so that every area of the city is represented. 10. Rebuild trust in city government by being more open and transparent, particularly financial transparency. I'm sure given enough time to think about it I could come up with more. What should happen is some real community outreach to find out what citizens in all areas of town think instead of what 5 members of council want. BTW; no one wants fancy street lights. We need a functional and safe city, not one dressed up for pretty pictures. |
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over the hill
MUSA Citizen Joined: Oct 19 2012 Location: middletown Status: Offline Points: 952 |
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Somebody que Hamit. Isn't that her dept?
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Trotwood
MUSA Resident Joined: Jul 22 2013 Status: Offline Points: 117 |
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1. Clean up litter on streets and in medians. Strictly enforce yard care requirements. Draft a tougher zoning code, get it passed, and hire enough citizens patrol to enforce it (note that I'm not saying "Police" - you'd want cheaper people with less power to do the job). Look to Huber Heights and their "Yellow Signs" program as an example. 2. Acquire vacant retail/commercial properties and start a pop-up shops program like this one instead of demolishing them: http://www.activatedspaces.org/ 3. Build a easy to use but thorough and intuitive website that states exactly what businesses, services, amenities, etc. Middletown has within its borders. Do this by hiring an intern to contact every business in the city of Middletown and ask for a write-up on their services. Hire another intern to sort out all these services and create a basic website layout. Hire a third intern to build the website, and then have your city's IT department review it. Then ask community members to test it to ensure the site is intuitive to use and have a SEO consultant ensure it gets good search results. Then distribute to corporations and residents. It's all about getting people to know exactly what's in their own backyard so they will start using it!! The end result should be like this: http://www.downtowndayton.org/ 4. Ask UC, Miami, OSU etc. architecture, planning, and engineering departments to have a class come investigate Middletown and its public spaces. Then allow them to propose solutions that foster connectivity within Middletown, and if possible and within budget, implement these plans. 5. Hire StrategyWorks! at Miami University or a similar program to do targeted marketing campaigns to recruiting 1) new businesses, 2) new residents. Once done, distribute marketing material free to Middletown residents and industrial building owners on a yearly basis so they can offer it when selling their homes. Also distribute to all Butler, Warren and Montgomery county residents if possible to help put Middletown on their radar for moving there in the future or expanding their business. 6. Get more tax revenue by increasing taxes on land zoned heavy industrial, if possible. Make this tax rate the highest in the state. You have a cash cow with AK, so milk it for what it's worth. They aren't going to China anytime soon. And even if they do, so what? The land would be far better served as an airport or for light industrial / distribution center use. And the detriment AK's presence provides Middletown every day is enough to justify the tax increases 7. Actively recruit Rural King to fill the former Target space. This is probably my most narrow request, but it's also the easiest. Economically speaking, Rural King and Middletown both would hit a home run if they moved into the location. 8. SCHOOLS!!! Look to Hamilton and Kettering as a model. Somehow Hamilton pulled off ranking ahead of Fairfield, and Hamilton is a near clone of Middletown. Kettering is more affluent, but has a large less affluent cross section but yet has figured out ways to get these students to accomplish amazing goals. Particularly notable are their programs for students with learning disabilities. Again, I don't know what the city can do specifically to help out the schools, but this is a big reason why people don't choose Middletown. 9. Ensure the city is a service provider to its residents, and not their enemy. The hate on this forum should not exist. Admittedly, a lot of the commenters on here have a... let's say... different perspective. One that is highly negatively biased, neurotic, and indicative of a general conservative/paranoid state of mind (there's great research on brain differences between conservatives and liberals here: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/brain-difference-democrats-republicans). But a lot of this negativity also is probably tied into Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs - many of these individuals are showing obvious signs they are not and cannot progress past state 2 on the triangle - the safety stage. Compare to somewhere like Mason or Indian Hill where most residents are on the self-actualization level. The city can help people out through proper engagement, programs, and customer service. Basically, help your people out!!! 10. Bike Trails. I think I've explained this enough elsewhere on this forum... the All-American Cities thread. http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5978&PN=3&title=all-america-city#top |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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ONE MORE TIME.....we need to talk about the BIG PINK ELEPHANT standing in the middle of the room called the EPA.
We need to repair the sewers BEFORE we start paving all the streets. |
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Factguy
MUSA Resident Joined: Dec 07 2009 Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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How about a top 10 ranking of what you'd the city to do in 2015-2016, such as number 1, set aside $20 Mm a year for road repair. Number 2, put in colonial period street lamps throughout all resident neighborhoods. Takers?
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TonyB
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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My confusion with your statements, Factguy; come from the notion that even if council put more money into street repair, it would still take 50 years. Yet you want citizens to pay additional to have their street repaired. What would be the point of putting more money into the fund or petitioning the city to fix your street if it will still take the same amount of time? Just one more reason to distrust city government and what they say as opposed to what they do.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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factguy, I appreciate the Jay Earnest dialogue, but--the only people that think that the 60% idea is ok and workable are the Council and Admin members who don't want to go back to their being respoinsible for road repair/maintenance + the S Main, downtowners and city people who have had their streets repaired without the 60% requirement/payment. NO ONE else sees this as a realistic option. Where else do municipalities do it this way?
As homeboy Chris Carter says, "Come on, man!" |
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Factguy
MUSA Resident Joined: Dec 07 2009 Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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Doug Adkins is putting a plan together that will be complete by year end 2015 addressing the asphalt and paving issue. It will take about 50 years with the funding available today to pave all streets.
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TonyB
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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Don't equate confidence in city government to electing the same people. Not one of them have come close to getting a majority of the eligible voters in Middletown to vote for them. 25% of the electorate doesn't equate to confidence; it equates to apathy and disillusionment. The same slate of people run because they have the plurality of voters who show up to vote. They have name recognition and the lack of factual reporting in our local media keep their names out there as advancing the city when nothing could be further from the truth. Plus, if city council members dont' have any impact on what streets get paved, how do explain the paving of streets where city council persons live? If the funds had continued to be allocated like they were in 1986, there would be no problem because the streets would have been maintained. Why would it take decades if more money were allocated? What would be the difference between that and your 60% garbage? If every street did that, how long would it take? The past history of our city government is exactly why so little confidence exists. What plan does this council and government have to address that? Or should we wait 50 years for that as well?
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Absolutely incredible Factguy. The sitting council members/school board members and most before them were elected for a number of reasons. 1. There is always a low voter turnout when compared to the total POTENTIAL voters the city can actually have. Most don't participate and that helps the MMF block win everytime. 2. The voters, who do show up at the polls, are the ones that present the winning majority of votes for the MMF sponsored candidates who always win and maintain the stranglehold on the city's elected offices. The MMF block of voters has always been difficult to beat just as the Repubs in Butler County have a one party stranglehold on controlling the decisions. 3. There is usually no one running against the MMF sponsored candidates. At times, the MMF candidates run unopposed. Those who choose to run that are not in the MMF candidate program have their vote counts diluted when the MMF offers a large field to candidates, reducing the impact (and election possibility) of the non-MMF candidate 4. There is an overwhelming amount of apathy among the residents of this city, most not caring at all who (or what) occupies the seats and makes the decisions regarding the city in which they live. 5. The constant occupancy of the city elected positions by the current crowd should come as no surprise and is definitely NOT an endorsement from the community. It just so happens they win by default because the other, different horses in the race have the deck stacked against them every time with the MMF money and network in place. Factguy: ...."what is the solution for the future? It would be neighborhood petitions of 60% majority, or a tax increase. Or, wait 50 years to have them paved (all of them)." Let's see.....neighborhood petitions of 60% majority.....a tax increase....or wait 50 years to pave the streets.......OR, RETHINK THE DISTRIBUTION OF THE CITY MONEY TO INCLUDE AN EMPHASIS ON FIXING THE STREETS. But, then again, you and the others don't see that as a choice.......but you could make it happen if you really wanted to do it. Hell, you make things happen all the time downtown while claiming to be a "cash-strapped" city. It's all in the priorities and you and the rest of city "leaders" have long ago decided the streets were of less importance than your precious downtown area. Wrong decision people. |
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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Factguy
MUSA Resident Joined: Dec 07 2009 Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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Lack of confidence in city leadership? Confusing. Most present sitting city council members were elected multiple times, some, 3, and board members in education (MCSD), have been re-elected 3-4 cycles and more. Fail to connect belief leadership is failed when members are re-elected. Don't voters typically NOT elect candidates they have no confidence, not vote them in to second and third terms? Moreover, city council members don't have an impact on streets being paved. If they allocated the funds today as it was back i n 1986, it still takes decades. Points of argument can be made on the past; what is the solution for the future? It would be neighborhood petitions of 60% majority, or a tax increase. Or, wait 50 years to have them paved (all of them).
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TonyB
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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Factguy:
For all of your suggestions about how the citizens should pony up more money to do something they already are taxed for having done, you still ignore my comments regarding lack of faith in the city officials. Why is that so difficult to understand? This city has a history of local government officials making grandious promises and undertaking massive boondoggle projects. Past history in this town shows that local government is incompetent at best and criminal in their attempts to deceive the citizens about their purposes. Why have an off-year election to shift money out of road repair and into payroll? Easier to pass when fewer citizens participate. Same with the city charter changes that reduced representation in council to 5 and did away with the ward system. An 11% turnout of voters should not be sufficient to change the charter of any government. Are you a member of this local government; either an elected official or an employee? Why won't you discuss the lack of faith in city government? |
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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THE answer to everything coming from the city leaders and their supporters.......RAISE TAXES. Why, so you can redirect them from the roads, once again, and filter them to your little special needs projects benefitting no one but your little buddies? You people lost your credibility decades ago. As spider posts.....won't get fooled again. Removing everyone on council would give us another chance to place some competency behind the desk and stop the dam rubber stamping of all the idiotic nonsense occurring in this city now. Then, we could fire the city manager and all the cronies that follow him, allowing us to refill the city building with competent people who want to direct this city the right way. It would also reduce the influence of the MMF which, under their direction, has taken this city down the toilet. |
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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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No, incorrect. The people were never told why the money was removed from the street fund until now when you told us it was to go to payroll. If that were true, we wouldn't mention the fact we didn't know what the money was used for many times on this forum. Great reason for allowing the streets to go to hell over the last 35+ years IMO. If the truth were known, most of those payroll positions were probably duplication paper-shufflers and multi-layer top-heavy management positions as per the city philosophy on department structure and they needed to be off the books to begin with. How did it get to the point of not being able to pay your people anyway? That's part of business 101 isn't it?....meeting payroll. I told you why the people won't take part in your little "people pave your own roads" program in an earlier post. They don't want a 20 year tax added to their already high taxes......and, again, it's the city's responsibility to pave the dam roads Factguy. Since you didn't comprehend the first time, I will say it again. It is not the people's job to pay for their own street repaving to bail out the city screw-ups when they removed the street funds in the 80's and never replaced them. We shouldn't have to pay the price for your inept leadership, but we have been doing it for decades. And, again, it wouldn't have taken 50 years, as you predict, to pave the roads if THEY hadn't raided the fund for payroll as you suggest. THEY screwed up. THEY need to fix it, no ask the people to bail them out.....again. You asked for a solution in your post. Here tis. Stop spending money in the downtown area and use the money to make the streets priority one. More people will benefit from using paved streets than will ever benefit from what the downtown has to offer. Simple matter of finding what benefits the most people and spending the money in those places for the biggest bang for the buck, especially when we are talking basics like street paving. |
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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Factguy
MUSA Resident Joined: Dec 07 2009 Status: Offline Points: 217 |
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Removing everyone on council would accomplish what? Even if they restored the previous ordinance allocation, it would still take 50 years to pave the roads. So, the city needs to raise he income tax or residents petition their neighborhood to get a 60% census.
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