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Tuesday, September 19, 2017
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Housing - from last council meeting

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buddhalite View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buddhalite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2017 at 10:44pm
It has been stated that 'questionable' meetings between the City Manager and Councilmembers are being held.  No details are given - just allegations.  Well, I read everything that was posted here - and I read AG Dewine's own opinion piece and this is what he said in part:

QUOTE:
For example, if there are five members of a school board, and only two get together to discuss public business, this is not a meeting and the Open Meetings Act would not require it to be open to the public. However, if three members gather to discuss public business, this is a meeting and the Open Meetings Act would require it to be open to the public. 

Okay - so - before any further accusations are made - I'd like to ask that any further accusations include details so that it can be determined in the court of public opinion if they are accurate, have any merit and actually violate code, law or otherwise.

I have a distinct feeling here that some of you just have a giant ax to grind for whatever reason - and i'm gonna call that out when I see it.

I'm beginning to think that this forum may be part of the reason that this city can't get anywhere.  Too much bickering over the past - not enough outlook for the future.

Bob
Buddhalite - about 80 pounds short of a full buddha, but was 30 over so the diet is working! Down 90 now....long way still to go!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2017 at 8:03am
Bob:

"The sunshine law allows for meetings between one or two different people to discuss things. If you didn't have the outside discussion - no business would ever be conducted in a sanctioned meeting. It would take forever"

Bob, look, if the city officials have a meeting outside of the public view, and they discuss city business and that discussion influences the decisions made within the council meeting format, it has essentially violated the public's trust of their officials. NO city business should be conducted without the public's knowledge. It doesn't matter whether it is one councilperson meeting with the city manager or all five, if a decision is made on any city business, outside the parameters of a public meeting, it doesn't do anything for the trust level. The conversations between councilmembers and the city manager between council meetings was brought to this forum's attention by Mr. Adkins himself I believe and a discussion ensued within these pages on the subject.

If it isn't a violation of the Sunshine Law, it certainly sends a message to the public that information is being hidden from the people or that a decision was made prior to the public knowing about it via council meeting and out in the open as all decisions need to be.

The public has a right to know what their leaders are doing in their city. It isn't exclusively the leaders city, it's the people's city and they are suppose to represent our wishes, not form the opinions/direction themselves without including the people. It eludes to good old boy backroom antics and none of us want that, do we?

What is it that needs to be discussed behind closed doors anyway other than city employee personnel matters as is stated in the council meeting notes.

And on the subject of providing you proof on the claims made on this forum, I have suggested once (now twice) to you that if you pick a subject, you, most likely, will find some data that will support the MUSA claims. You just need to search for it and accept it as factual in nature as it usually comes from the Journal articles. I still don't know why you started on this forum lambasting the city leaders and suddenly, you are defending their actions. Puzzling at best. You have made a complete turnabout IMO.

And, why do you take your attorney's word as the ultimate truth? His opinion is not necessarily the gospel either.
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buddhalite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2017 at 11:04am
To explain my views (and my Attorney's view) on the Sunshine Laws so everyone can understand - I'm going to use a hypothetical situation to explain it.

Let's imagine together that our fair City Manager wants to create a new commission sanctioned by the council to, oh I don't know, help spur east end growth.  Just like any other commission - it is supposed to have members, a charter, a purpose, etc.

The Manager drafts a proposal and sees one of the council members walking past his office.  He asks him/her to come in and talk with him and give some input on the proposal.  The Manager listens intently, has some back and forth with the councilperson, and may or may not make changes to his proposal.

The Manager solicits this advice from every councilperson he sees walk by his office. 

Two days later - the same councilperson walks past his office and stops in to inquire about the progress on the commission.  The Manager shows him/her the newest draft.  The councilperson says that he/she won't support the idea unless a certain provision is added.  The councilperson and the Manager go back and forth on the matter - and they walk away.

Another of the consulted councilpersons swings by, looks at the newest draft - and pledges his/her support.

The item is added to the agenda at the next meeting - where the proposal is read, and discussion ensues.  The councilperson who demanded his/her idea be included is visibly upset that their recommendation has been ignored and brings it up for discussion.

The council discusses - there's public discussion and comment as well - and it is determined that it should go for a vote.

The vote is scheduled for the next appropriate meeting.

The Manager is accosted by the councilperson who felt maligned in the process.  The Manager eventually convinces him/her that their support of the program is essential - and that though their thoughts were not put into play - that the program will be successful and it can be amended if necessary.

The councilperson decides to support the measure simply for the good it might do for the community.

At the next meeting when the vote is carried out - it is voted in on the consent agenda and put into effect.

--------

Now - it has been said on this forum that these little side meetings somehow violate either the sunshine laws or the intent of the sunshine laws.  I believe they violate neither.

First - unless a majority of members are present - there's no violation.  I have read lots of old posts here - and there doesn't appear to be a concern when this is argued over how many councilpersons were present (so, I have to assume it doesn't matter for the sake of the argument).

Second - the intent of the laws was to prevent secret meetings and secret votes - all *actions* must be taken in the daylight view of citizens.

Now - imagine the above scenario playing out in the manner of no meetings with anyone outside of the public council meetings:

Upon first reading of the ordinance - there would be three hours of comments and questions and idea sharing on just this one proposal - rendering the meeting totally ineffective as no other business gets conducted due to time constraints.

The proposal would be read, at each iteration, at the next meeting - what, 5, 6, 7, different times?  Just to pass something - it would take 16-20 weeks without any outside convo regarding the matter.

The system is what it is - I am afraid that there's voices here on this board who bring up these issues out of a pit in their heart simply because they feel maligned by some action that the council took.

HOWEVER - these same people only "want to throw 'em all out" - but for as long as you have been preaching that message it hasn't worked, has it?

Nope - I say everything that I say here to gently nudge each of us into remembering that it's easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar - and the approach of 'screw 'em all' is not viable to the citizens of our fair city.

Until we can demonstrably prove to the greater citizenry that our current council cannot be entrusted with another term - we must endeavor to work within the framework that already exists to make it publicly known where we stand, make a case for our beliefs, push them to enact a framework which we can work within - and if/when those efforts fail - we then have a case to take to the people and push for a wholesale change of our local government.

There's a method to the madness folks - but you don't start a race at the finish line.

Bob
Buddhalite - about 80 pounds short of a full buddha, but was 30 over so the diet is working! Down 90 now....long way still to go!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2017 at 2:07pm
Ok Bob, have read your hypothetical situation involving the city manager and the "stop in/one at a time councilmembers"

Bob:
"Second - the intent of the laws was to prevent secret meetings and secret votes - all *actions* must be taken in the daylight view of citizens."

The situation you have described where there is conversation between city manager and council people about adopting a policy IS out of the daylight view of the citizens. It is not in council chambers where the public is able to hear the dialogue and provide input. Rather, it is a private conversation concerning city business and a proposal and is held in the city manager's office which is not an announced public venue.

An example of a committee being formed out of the public's view, that has had some dire consequences in the past, is the Historical Committee. Designed to control architecture and color schemes in the S. Main St area, it has expanded to include the entire downtown apparently as they have stuck their noses in the O'Reilly's fiasco as to "proper" exterior design" for their precious downtown area. Ridiculous.....and the committee should be dissolved as it is more of a nuisance than a worthwhile endeavor. Self-imposed important people serving the community in a negative way in most cases.

Bob:
"The item is added to the agenda at the next meeting - where the proposal is read, and discussion ensues"

Are the people allowed to comment or is it strictly between council and city manager in your story?

Bob:
"The proposal would be read, at each iteration, at the next meeting - what, 5, 6, 7, different times? Just to pass something - it would take 16-20 weeks without any outside convo regarding the matter"

You're WAY OFF on this one. Read the history of the work agendas on the city site. Most of the proposals that come before council are declared emergency readings and therefore, only read one time for consideration to push it through quickly. Very seldom are council agenda items read a second time and delayed from enacting. If you attend or watch a typical council meeting, the reading of the proposal is given, there is little to no discussion before the blanket rubber stamp "ayes" are spoken by council members. Never a question asked(which makes it appear as if it has been discussed before the meeting and the vote pre-arranged- Hmmm) It is so habitual, it has been duly noted on this forum and is rather apparent when viewing council meetings. This is what we are talking about Bob when we mention that the city manager contacts each councilmember BEFORE the actual meeting to discuss the item and to perhaps "convince" the councilperson to vote in favor of the measure BEFORE it hits the chamber floor for consideration. THIS is the problem as this is, what did you say before......"all actions must be taken in the daylight view of the citizens" Does this activity look to you like it is in a daylight view of the citizens Bob?

Bob:
"HOWEVER - these same people only "want to throw 'em all out" - but for as long as you have been preaching that message it hasn't worked, has it?"

Number of reasons for that happening Bob. Getting them thrown out hasn't worked for us because we can't seem to persuade decent people on this site to run for office. The reasons no one wants to run ranges from no time to do it to don't want the headaches of dealing with the MMF political candidate machine set up here to not having a chance of winning because our side of the ledger doesn't have enough voters to overcome the voting block who support the city fed candidates. Don't want to end up like Josh Laubach and forced out either. Rebels with independent thinking are forced out Bob. Comply or leave is the mantra. We don't know how to get the potential voters off the couch and to the polling place on election day to overcome the city block and vote for a decent, non-programmed candidate and therefore, turn council personnel over to a 5 person combo who will actually represent the people rather than play puppet for the city manager/MMF. If we could get 5 people on council who will not buy the city nonsense and actually control the city manager (or fire him for incompatibility with council's agenda), we could start to see a change in direction for the city that would be a positive for the people. Until these things I mention are in place, we have business as usual with no hope on the horizon of making this city any better. JMO

Note: 7 days until JJ's
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buddhalite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2017 at 2:21pm
Viet,

Look, I stand by my original statement - this happens everywhere.  If every jot and tittle of every single ordinance/policy/spending/statement were approached in the manner you want it to be - nothing would get done.

And still, nothing happening there, IM&MAHO, doesn't violate the sunshine law.  But - I'm going to quit on that subject because I'm apparently the only one on this board with enough outside Middletown experience and knowledge to know that this is an everyday occurrence around the world.

Having said that - I agree wholeheartedly with you regarding the 'emergency' stuff.  There's WAY TOO DANG MANY EMERGENCIES with this council.

The Emergency codified ordinance is there for ACTUAL emergencies to skip the brouhaha of the multiple readings and subsequent vote ritual.  However - I read one where back in the day the golf course needed fertilizer and seed and such - and the expenditure was passed on an EMERGENCY!

Someone didn't do their job - should have been held accountable (maybe it happened - maybe it didn't - don't know) - and the expenditure should have gone the normal course.

Even on 4/4 - two emergencies were declared - Yankee road and a mysteriously located traffic signal - hardly I would think either to be an emergency.

FWIW - I think that form matters.  If people on this forum are going to rise up and run for office - they've got to be cool, collective and remember how you boil a frog - if they aren't, any attempt to run will be futile.

I think there's room for both sides in this world - what matters is being able to succinctly state your point of view in a persuasive enough manner to win your enemies over.  

Bob
Buddhalite - about 80 pounds short of a full buddha, but was 30 over so the diet is working! Down 90 now....long way still to go!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whistlersmom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2017 at 5:13pm
Buddha

If I may, let’s assume your lengthy hypothetical situation up to the point where the council meetings take place. Here is where the problem lies.

In a REAL council meeting in Middletown, usually the first reading of the ordinance is just that, A READING, and only a reading with NO DISCUSSION because ALL of the discussion has already taken place and everyone has already agreed to approve it. ALL of council has been informed of its merit according to our city manager’s view and have been persuaded BEFORE the meeting to approve it. Our city manger thoroughly explains how he does this on The City Manager’s Blog (titled City Council Deliberations and dated February 17, 2017) on website City of Middletown,org., and he ACTUALLY SAYS that discussion in the meeting is unnecessary.

In council meetings there is almost always immediate, unanimous approval … no discussion. This is not conjecture …

Go to the You Tube videos of our Council meetings and see for yourself. Also, almost all of the ordinances are declared an EMERGENCY, another point of contention. Declaring an emergency allows council, at their discretion, to IMMEDIATELY APPROVE AN ORDINANCE on the first reading with no notice to the public whatsoever. Why is the city continually operating on an emergency basis??? Here’s why:

An emergency ordinance, under Ohio rules, WILL BE IMMEDIATELY ENACTED upon approval; circumventing the required thirty day waiting period for enactment of new ordinance. (They may, but seldom do, wait to approve an emergency ordinance at the next meeting with a second reading.) Either way an emergency ordinance can be and usually is, easily approved WITHOUT ANY DISCUSSION and without public input. COUNCIL FINISHES THE RACE BEFORE IT STARTS!!! This MAY not violate the Sunshine Law BUT IT DOES VIOLATE THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW.

We, on this forum, have been running a marathon for years. Then you come along running a sprint for the last few yards, reaching rapid conclusions from the perspective of a newcomer. In the brief period of time since you joined this board you could not have absorbed all the pertinent information here on MUSA, City of Middletown.org and You Tube videos of council meetings..

If you or your attorney had thoroughly read, without prejudice, the several posts on this subject, you would have known about this. You wanted proof.   Its right at your finger tips.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing" Edmond Burke
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buddhalite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2017 at 5:31pm
Well then, I apparently know nothing - and I'm an idiot - and I can't possibly know what I am talking about - so I quit.

I will no longer participate in the Middletown USA forums.  You may now return to your regular gripe fest of negativity.

I will pursue other methods of getting out a positive message about our town and work as closely with council as I can to make this city the best it can be.

It is a shame that someone can't just have a differing opinion and method without being shouted down.

It's been fun - like a good enema.

Bob

Oh yeah - as a parting shot - thanks for nothing.  This topic is almost #2 in all time views on this forum (from what I can see - no report to view, just anecdotal evidence and it's only 2.5 weeks old) - and was headed for #1 - but who cares anymore.
Buddhalite - about 80 pounds short of a full buddha, but was 30 over so the diet is working! Down 90 now....long way still to go!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2017 at 6:33pm
Mr. Buddhalite:

With all due respect, perhaps you (and your attorney) should do a little more research.  The scenario you describe wherein the manager and fewer than a quorum of council members meet in succession to discuss the same subject is, in fact, a violation of Ohio's sunshine laws.  I cannot recall the exact legal citation (I am old and somewhat absent-minded) but I'm sure that if you google "Cincinnati Post v. City of Cincinnati" you will find it.

In fact, if you search that term on this very forum you will find it, along with lengthy discussions, in a few of my posts from years ago.

You will find that the judge in the majority opinion called such meetings as you describe "legislative musical chairs in an attempt to thwart the intent of the Sunshine law", or some similar language.

Regards,
Mike Presta
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 05 2017 at 8:23pm
lol--what did I miss??
budbob is gone already??
did he take a job in admin or is he running for mayor(or both)??
with his lawyers, Cox and corporate sponsors he should make a run
middiemom, middielover and Middletown29 behind him also even though he is against the $$$ spent on the former downtown
this is the most viewed topic because he posted in it about 100 times

oh well--you have to admire his passion and enthusiasm
better to burn out than to fade away--rust never sleeps!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buddhalite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2017 at 6:38pm
Well John,

Make all the fun you want.  I'm not scared of your petty little insults.  You have no idea who I am nor what I am capable of.

This is one of the more viewed topics - because some solutions are being presented - people are finding out that there's folks here who actually care about the city more than their overly petty complaints.

That's what is happening here.  I encourage you to join me at the next council meeting (I was there tonight, were you?) and a Java Johnny's next Tuesday - I'd love to meet you face to face.

Oh - and thanks to all who reached out to me yesterday and today.  I guess it makes more sense for me to sit right here and keep participating and keep working to change our beautiful town into the shining city on the hill that it should be.

You knew I wouldn't stay gone long.... :-)

Bob - rust never sleeps.....lol
Buddhalite - about 80 pounds short of a full buddha, but was 30 over so the diet is working! Down 90 now....long way still to go!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2017 at 5:55am
Thank you for staying Bob N. Your masterful input and dialogue has value added meaning to this forum. My hope is that you will join forces with middiemom, Middletown 29, Doug Adkins and other city defenders and one day convince all of us naysayers that we have been looking at the city and it's leadership in a negative manner after all this time with the wrong focus.
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2017 at 6:15am
Bob:

"I guess it makes more sense for me to sit right here and keep participating and keep working to change our beautiful town into the shining city on the hill that it should be."

Darn right it makes sense for you to sit right here Bob. If you'll wait a few minutes, we'll get the flag out as a backdrop, find some patriotic music and you can do the "keep working to change our beautiful town into the shining city on the hill that it should be" routine with more effectiveness. Better yet, we'll get the same writers for the "My Town" song on You Tube that was performed a few years ago in the city building. Drama is your game Bob. It is entertaining.

Five days Bob to the Java meeting. Are you ready to meet some of us face to face as you mentioned?

By the way Bob, what are you "capable of"?
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2017 at 1:24pm
Come on bob--lighten up
Don't take me or yourself so seriously
Correct--I know nothing about you and probably vice versa
No more council meetings for me-- been there done it for decades like many others .
Same with other meeting forums
I do trust the chief and manager 100% though we occasionally differ on method

Make a positive difference--I absolutely hope so
Keep on truckin and chuckin straight ahead
It can only get better and Council seats are ripe for the taking
Make middietown great again and drain the donham swamp!
Maybe the hydraulic canal also
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buddhalite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2017 at 9:25pm
VietVet,

I am capable of leading any group of people, anywhere, anytime.  I can lead armies, accountants and even politicians.

Leadership has always been my game - and I've also always been successful - even when the proverbial chips are stacked well against me.

I have the JJ's meeting on my calendar - and I will be there even if my house is on fire and there's only one dog peeing on it to put it out.  It is my sincere hope that other members of council and city employees, etc., join us as well.

Drama seems more to be your game - I'm interested in hearing how to fix the issues of this city - and most of what I hear is a bunch of petty finger-in-face comments toward those who are genuinely interested in fixing what's wrong and making Middletown all it can be - not just what it will be.

Bob


Buddhalite - about 80 pounds short of a full buddha, but was 30 over so the diet is working! Down 90 now....long way still to go!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2017 at 9:44pm
Bobby:

"I am capable of leading any group of people, anywhere, anytime. I can lead armies, accountants and even politicians"

Surely you gest.

Armies and politicians?

Incredible. You are amazing Bob. You are also delusional.

Ever been in the military Bob? If not, you have no clue about the military environment, much less being able to lead within that environment.

Ever been in the political arena? Run for office did ya? You do know how cutthroat this environment is don't you Bob?

Quite the imagination Robert.   
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buddhalite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2017 at 10:17pm
VietVet,

Did you take your medicine today?  LOL  You are a crack.  

Bob

PS.  You ever call me 'Bobby' again - we will have problems.  Petty, maybe - but I've never disrespected anyone here.
Buddhalite - about 80 pounds short of a full buddha, but was 30 over so the diet is working! Down 90 now....long way still to go!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2017 at 6:48am
Originally posted by buddhalite buddhalite wrote:

VietVet,

Did you take your medicine today?  LOL  You are a crack.  

Bob

PS.  You ever call me 'Bobby' again - we will have problems.  Petty, maybe - but I've never disrespected anyone here.


You are the medicine Bob. Great entertainment at times. Wow, wearing our temper on our shoulder today as well? And pray tell, what kind of problems are we going to have? Your profile indicates a Bob N. as your name. Bob can be referenced as Robert or Bobby as well. And just how is using a proper name disrespecting you? If I wanted to do that, I would have called you a clueless wonder, a city shill or something worse. Didn't do that did I?
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 08 2017 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by buddhalite buddhalite wrote:


Oh yeah - as a parting shot - thanks for nothing.  This topic is almost #2 in all time views on this forum (from what I can see - no report to view, just anecdotal evidence and it's only 2.5 weeks old) - and was headed for #1 - but who cares anymore.
Buddhalite:

Just FYI, this topic is no where near #2 in number of views and it is doubtful it will ever come close to number one.  There are topics on this forum that have had well over 10,000 views, and have done so with less than two full pages of posts!  (This topic has nearly FOUR pages of posts.)
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote middiemom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 10 2017 at 4:34pm
Bob, you truly are wasting your breath on this site, and more importantly, with Vet. You could give him and the others a million dollars as a gift and they would get out the pitchforks and torches and demand to know where you got it and how long have you been holding out on them. None of them will be at that meeting. None of them.  I'd find another forum, if there is one, to propose your positive agenda. It will be met with constant negativity and rejection on here. Doug has given them their meetings and NO ONE took him up on it. There are only one or two who want to be a part of turning this ship around. The rest on here just continue to scream "no, no, no" at the top of their lungs, cross their arms and stomp their feet. Cry
Middletown... Bright past BRIGHTER FUTURE!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 11 2017 at 5:37pm
Ok mom, I'll ask the question once again just in case you missed it the first time.

If participating on this site is a waste of time, and you have suggested to Bob to stop being involved, WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO POST ON THIS SITE?

Why don't you take your own advise and sign off for the last time?

You are demonstrating the same thought process that all city officials, city supporters and those who want to live the city planned dream do. You want to bitch about how negative we are on this forum, yet you still want to add your snide little two cents worth on the insults. Why?

Just leave for greener pastures if you don't like the grass in this one. No one will get mad if you depart. You won't hurt our feelings if you go.

Do yourself a favor and say goodbye.

OR, are you just like us and want a venue to complain about things as you claim we do? You're no better than we are so come down off the "holier than thou" throne lady and take your rose-colored, Jim Jones kool-aid drinking, accept all they tell you opinions with you. It is amazing just how clueless and gullible some people are when the facts are right in front of them. How in the hell do you think the city got from All-American status five + decades ago to the early stages of a ghetto we have now? Bet you weren't even around to make the comparison, were you? How can you support past and present city leaders that have brought us to where we are now?
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote middiemom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 11 2017 at 10:29pm
And, Vet sir, you prove my point. You cannot get out of the past. It is truly a sight to behold. People now are trying to make decisions based on the good of the city and trying to get us out of our rut that was created by PAST administrations. get on board and help out. I know for a fact that you do not attend council meetings. You did not reach out to the manager to hold your meetings with him that all on this site demanded. Doug could say the sky is blue and you would find something to disagree with him on. Bob offers a ray of positive vibes and guess who is there to destroy that? All he was doing was offering a positive point of view, commend the chief for his out reach , and you cannot let that happen. You even resort to calling him "Bobby" which, by the way, I noticed you didn't do again.  He puts his money where his mouth is. The rest is hot air. Also, to answer your question as to why I don't leave it is simple. I, as a strong woman, will not allow the likes of you to bully those of us who are trying to change the city and it's reputation into silence, sir. There are great things happening downtown with all of the new restaurants, wine shop, and vodka distillery. These are exciting times! Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way. 
Middletown... Bright past BRIGHTER FUTURE!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 12 2017 at 6:45am
mom:
"I know for a fact that you do not attend council meetings"

I've attended my fair share of council meetings mom. Not lately though. A little hard to break away from caregiver status for my paralyzed wife. Would you be willing to caregive for her every other Tuesday night while I attend the meetings to meet your requirement? Doubt that you could handle it anyway.

mom:
"You did not reach out to the manager to hold your meetings with him that all on this site demanded"

Good Lord lady! You know as well as I do the reason that wasn't done. A one on one with the city manager would have resulted in targeting and payback down the road. The city government has had instances of vindictiveness on occasion with the residents of this town. It has been documented. If any of us scheduled a meeting with Adkins it would be like scheduling your own lynching. Who needs the added drama from the city in their lives?

mom:
"Bob offers a ray of positive vibes and guess who is there to destroy that? All he was doing was offering a positive point of view, commend the chief for his out reach , and you cannot let that happen"

Simple. Bob is not immune, just as I am not, to the scrutiny and opposite opinions being posted here. We all don't have to agree with Bob just because he chooses to be positive and more forgiving of city nonsense. When you participate on a forum, you should expect some flak now and then regarding your ideas. Like others here, I certainly have received my fair share of opposing comments. It is the nature of the beast on a forum. So, what, are we suppose to all be kinder/gentler to Bob and those on the city side of things? Kinder/gentler has ruined society, masking real issues to be solved for the sake of hurting someone's feelings. It's a tough cruel world out there mom in case you haven't noticed. Not everything is sugar coated and wonderful. A trophy for participation is a joke.

mon:
"He puts his money where his mouth is."

Oh really? How does he do that? So far, he has just given us his opinions without really providing any backup proof in his critique. Isn't that what you city supporters always demand of us even though there is supporting documentation on this very forum to support much of what is said here.

mom:
" Also, to answer your question as to why I don't leave it is simple. I, as a strong woman, will not allow the likes of you to bully those of us who are trying to change the city and it's reputation into silence, sir"

Then don't suggest that Bob leave. Stay strong mom. Again, why do you think you are being bullied on here? We are all trying to get our points across and just because some have a stronger "writing technique" than others doesn't necessarily define a bullying event. Some are more insistent than others IMO. Again, nature of the beast on an open forum mom. You want me to E-Mail you a Hurt Feelings Form? Got one here at work.

mom:
"There are great things happening downtown with all of the new restaurants, wine shop, and vodka distillery"

Perhaps, but these
great things" only encompass less than 3-5% of the population therefore severely limiting the effect it has had on the city's other 98%. The "great things" going on downtown are for a very small contingent of so-called "culturally motivated" people. It is of no interest to the vast majority and therefore, not of any major value.

mom:
"These are exciting times! Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way"

My hometown too mom. I was here long before most in the city building and most who are trying to develop the downtown. Instead of full speed ahead with a downtown gameplan for the arts and fru fru, it would have been more correct to have asked those who have been here for awhile what they wanted for their city as well. You don't come into a town as a newby, start pushing your way around, changing the direction of the city without offering those who were here well before you an opportunity to have input into the direction of the city. That is rude and unprofessional and it has created some hard feelings with some of the long term citizens. Perhaps we don't want the arts and the fru fru shops downtown. Perhaps we don't want this "culture" crap forced down our throats. Perhaps the new people should have respected the old guard by at least asking for our input and placing a value on it as well after we told you our desires for our city.
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Analytical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 13 2017 at 2:44pm
swohio75 -

In response from your earlier "critique" of my post that included only website facts for the Nicholas Place Apartments project adjoining I-75, I noticed today that monthly rents for 2 Bedroom/1 and 3-4 Bath units have been reduced from $1,145 to $995 monthly (special offer).  Larger 3 bedroom units were stated at $1,445 monthly instead of $1,545 (special offer).

I also learned today from a highly knowledgeable real estate investor that the first of several buildings to encompass this 216 unit development is partially occupied with some additional interior construction still to be completed.  The construction status of the other buildings is not known.

The above makes one wonder about the Middletown area market demand for "luxury" housing even now with reduced monthly rents such as these?

Nelson Self
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote What A City Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 13 2017 at 8:06pm
Ok, we had our meeting at JJ's. buddhalite , two ladies and I showed. The rest .....well......

Mr. Adkins, Mr. Bohannon, the Chief and Lt Jim Cunningham were there as well. Topics discussed included Section 8, upgrading the housing stock, heroin, crime, the schools and the performance, the city image ,city neighborhoods and attracting decent people to live here.  Wanted to discuss the downtown and the fascination with it's development but ran out of time. 

Got a different perspective from this meeting as to my opinion concerning certain officials in the city building. Have come to the conclusion that I have been way too critical concerning the efforts to date on fixing the problems of the city. Guess it took a face to face explanation.  All city leaders indicated to me that they were well aware of the problems and are attempting to repair the damage that has been done here the last four + decades. They indicated they can't do it overnight, to give them time to expect results. Fair enough.

It was a different feeling for me to be able to talk to the city leaders and not be confined to a council meeting format but rather have an open, no time constraint discussion about things. They were very cordial.

I very much appreciate them taking their time to listen and offer feedback on this occasion. 

Let's do it again sometime (with more from this forum participating perhaps?). If the next session goes as this one did, I will guarantee you will enjoy the experience. Nothing hostile about tonight's discussion. I think it went well with no adversarial talk in sight. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swohio75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 13 2017 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by Analytical Analytical wrote:

swohio75 -

In response from your earlier "critique" of my post that included only website facts for the Nicholas Place Apartments project adjoining I-75, I noticed today that monthly rents for 2 Bedroom/1 and 3-4 Bath units have been reduced from $1,145 to $995 monthly (special offer).  Larger 3 bedroom units were stated at $1,445 monthly instead of $1,545 (special offer).

I also learned today from a highly knowledgeable real estate investor that the first of several buildings to encompass this 216 unit development is partially occupied with some additional interior construction still to be completed.  The construction status of the other buildings is not known.

The above makes one wonder about the Middletown area market demand for "luxury" housing even now with reduced monthly rents such as these?

Nelson Self
I can't say what the build out plan and timetable is.  I am not surprised at the "special" rates as it is common for complexes under construction to reduce rates and gradually raise them as more buildings come online and the site nears completion. 
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