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No Tax Increase

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randy View Drop Down
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    Posted: Apr 14 2010 at 11:46am
 

 

On May 4, 2010, the Middletown City School District has a chance to continue our school PRIDE.  This levy replaces two temporary levies that have been on the books for years.

The schools are NOT asking for more money. This levy does not raise taxes on current properties. 

If the levy does not pass, the schools will lose 26% of their income, because the existing levies will expire in December, 2010.

These funds are used for academics, teachers and support staff, sports, music and art, honors programs, foreign languages, transportation, utilities, books and supplies, and all the other programs and services necessary to keep our schools working.

This levy will help the Middletown City Schools continue its efforts to raise test scores, improve academic achievement, and prepare Middletown’s children for higher education and the work force.

Debbie Alberico

Community Relations / Communication

1515 Girard Ave.

Middletown, OH 45044

513-217-2625

Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 14 2010 at 12:26pm
The statement, "won't raise taxes" is not quite correct. It MAY raise your taxes if the revenue source reduces. The school will get their 18 mil by increases in taxes on the remaining sources should the original revenue stream be lost. I noticed that Alberico "conveniently" failed to mention that the levy will be an on-going one with no chance to reverse it by voting, once it's on the books.

Do you really want to give this poor performance an encore by resupplying their failed efforts? If so, why? When do you turn off the money tap on a poor performer?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smartman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 14 2010 at 7:11pm
Nice statement on you part Vet! You got what you wanted Dr Price is gone. So on that note lets vote the levy down so the new guy starts in the hole of 26% less. Lets vote down so it guarentees nothing will come to town! Lets vote it down so property values drop even farther! Thats OK cuz you are independantly weathy and property values dont bother you! You do not have a child in school that is number 1 in her class because of teachers that care! Vote it down to deny those students that succeed chances to learn more, participate in activities that provide college opportunities. Thats right Vet lets show'em and vote no!!!!! As of this moment those that own homes have no choice but to vote yes. This is our last chance to try to turn this town down. We cant sell our homes and move without losing our asses now. So yeah Vet lets Vote NO! I put you in thge same category as the idiots that are running this town! I'm voting yes because my family has a lot to lose. Vet, too bad you dont have a child in school, you would understand the importance. Just remember in the day like you refer too, folks paid for your education, believe it or not the cost was the same, when you figure in inflation. If it fails, let know what you sell you home for and all you section 8!Thumbs%20Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smartman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 14 2010 at 7:29pm
Oh by the way Vet, sorry about your experience with Channel 5, my experience was very good, Curtis Fuller is a great guy. Oh and did I mention Lott Tan with ONN, he was at our home 5 times during 2007. Good experience here too!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rngrmed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2010 at 1:05am
Smartman, please explain to me how voting for this levy guarantees that businesses will come to Middletown.  Also, how voting for this levy will guarantee that my property values will increase.  Also, if the levy fails doesn't that mean my taxes will decrease?  I've already lost 20k on my house, what's a couple more thousand?  Please explain to me how it is always the taxpayer's fault that some business didn't come to town because tax payers are tired of giving their hard earned to the city to waste on their business plans.  For example, giving money to Middletown Custom Cabinets.  That is our tax money, yet we are buying property for them, giving them money to move, yet our houses are being forclosed on with no help. Our streets are in disrepair and I only hear some talk.  122 has been started, but now it is stopped with no signs of work in months from the Dixie Hwy intersection.  Will voting for this levy fix any of this?  Will the schools continue to waste money in some stupid landgrab and they tell me they are broke?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2010 at 7:56am
Big difference Smartman when people paid for my education and today. Back then, the people got something for their money- performance and a well established, credidible school system. The schools were actually worth the money back then. Don't have that today. Oh, by the way, I'm a home owner too so I'm suffering on devaluation with the rest of the owners. As to being independently wealthy??? Is that why I'm still working at age 61, with at least 8 more years to go, giving me a total of 51 total working years before I can even think of retiring? Price is gone....so what....it's a lousy school system now with or without him. It was screwed up before he came on board, during his time here and is still screwed up after his departure. Won't change until the people change what they are currently doing. Until they change, what is the purpose in financing their failed ways? Those that own homes have no choice but to vote yes???? What? Hate to burst the bubble on your theory, but here is one homeowner who will vote no until they give me some performance improvements. Oh, I did have a child go through this school system in the 80's/90's. Wasn't worth a crap then either. He's doing much better in college, no thanks to the educational experience he received in the Middletown schools. I was surprised he wanted to continue his education knowing the handicap he was under in this school system. It's going to take a lot more to turn this city around than to finance a mediocre school system, by the way. The Middletown school system has created, on their own, a poor performing reputation. It has not come because we didn't fund the schools. He--. we built you new elementaries a few years ago. Latest technology was going to turn it around they said. Where's the improved performance we were told we would get from these schools? Go ahead and vote yes. If you are content with the current state of affairs and want to reward below average results, that's your choice. Don't understand the logic, but have at it. Now, you go out and have yourself a nice day, Smartman!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2010 at 8:01am
Smartman- Who in the he-- is Lott Tan at ONN? Didn't have Curtis Fuller from Channel 5. Had Karin Johnson at the house. She contacted us for a follow-up visit and I told her no. Didn't like her lack of coverage from the anti-levy side of things. Glad you had good experience. Apparently, they must really like you pro-levy folks. After all, voting for all levies is the popular thing to do in some circles. Good for you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2010 at 9:55am
smartman is correct.
we do not need to go backwards, especially to this degree.
 
factor in the potential increase in potential polarization, cuts, threats and negative pub(though failed levys are hardly news), and we will go backwards.
 
YES is probably the only positive constructive answer, then hope for the education machine to move in the right direction with the new leadership. How else can you view things if you want any progress.
 
A lot of help from parents would be the biggest boost.
 
I was an original supporter of the Dolly Parton Imagination Library.
I am glad to see it working so well.
MCF got this one right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2010 at 10:29am
Vet, your column (blog) answering the Section 8 issue is appropriate to why the levy must be defeated with a NO vote. Lets face it, for thoe with youngsters in school, its always the answer they wish to have---everyone puts skin in the game aka money $$$, that reduces their cost, and so they push the levies.
 
Sj, while acknowledging your strong argument on the Section 8 dilemma undermines the issue on the levy and his position. In reality, taxes will go up, as property values continue to decline, ED deosn't bring in the revenue as you said and sj agreed, and the existing base of tax payers get stuck paying more. As those outside Middletown will be fully aware of this dismal system, they will be even less likely to buy property in Middletown, so the cycle continues. As less people buy, and property values decline, exiting residents will see a tax increase---that's the reality here.
 
This tax levey isn't about having plenty in the work force, there are absolutely no jobs fo people, other than pumping gas at the 2nd shipt at Marathon or BP. Hence, the issue is not there is a voud in educated graduates, the void is no ED and no desire for others to move to Middletown.
 
sj's confirmation of agreement with you on 8 completely undermines the support he gives: we have a new superintendant (wow- hurray-lt the bloons drift through the air), while keeping the overhead in place with no cuts. Do you know how many $ Bb these school pension funds are already behind across the US? The system is exactly like the US Postal Service with results to match.
 
VOTE NO because it will do nothing to elevate scores, put protect wages, just lik the public safety levy did nothing to improve public safety and reduce crime. It won't get worse in Middletown: individuals will be more impressed the residents remained other than those with life-time resident cards, have taken a tsand, and said we are going to get this fixed.  Your section 8 comment made the absolute best argument fpr defeating the school levy VET. As ED has not done its job, and Middletown has such a tarnished image, all property owners will end up paying more and more. Why do you thinh AK and the Atrium left---for the reasons you cited. The facts weigh heavily on the NO scale, not YES. In fact, there is no justification for YES, other than wanting to keep a failing system in place without making adjustments. When they cut about 40% of the overhead, which by the way, would take care of the Algebra books as Ms.Andrew referenced, its time to vote factually and logically, and not because another wants his/her costs reduced by amortized expense. Springboro has shot down at least 2-3 of these, and their rating is still EXCELLENT.
 
VOTE NO.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2010 at 10:32am
Spider- if you're at the bottom you can't go much further down (backwards). Your statement about voting yes, then HOPING the education machine (which is currently broken in this town) will move in the "right direction" with new leadership.......I believe we taxpayers have heard that phrase before .....you know, the old "just approve this levy"....."help us make the change we need to succeed" routine. "Just give us new elementary schools with the newer technology and that will help us achieve better results". Remember that when they were pitching the bond issue to build the new schools a few years ago.


No, I'm sorry to disagree with you on this as I know that you are passionate about getting your levy passed, but "it is what it is" and "it is" not worth plowing more money into it on top of what we have given them over the last 25 years, just to maintain the status quo/business as usual unsatisfactory results. The school people need to show something....anything in an upward trend toward positive improvement to justify what they are currently asking for. Too many times, we have given them what they want on a promise that never materialized. It is time to bring this thing to a boil and cut off the money tap. Some of us have had enough false hope of progress that has always resulted in disappointment. This levy is rated
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2010 at 11:30am
come on--I am backing this because I honestly think that it is the only constructive direction to take.
A rejection resulting in a 26% loss of funding would be catastrophic, and hardly needs to be explained in detail to those here who follow issues much closer than the majority.
 
Majority rules--if this levy goes down, then it goes down. I can accept the result, and will not be there this time to fund certain programs.
 
Honestly--if the library pittance passes and the school issue fails, then I truly don't understand the local mindset. The cavalier attitude expressed by the library board and their wishes, the expectation of emergency legislation of a tax issue, and the inappropriate comments and suggestions made by Council rep/board liason Mr.Picard really affected my thinking on this issue. This is a non-essential service in a time when priority services are struggling. The library can wait.
 
Section 8--I missed the meeting. I like Mr.Bohannon,Mr.Tracy,Mr.Faulkner and anyone left out, though their money train must no longer stop as often in town.
 
Tuesday's Council session should be very interesting. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2010 at 11:56am
Hey sj, you'll have to understand my training to appreciate the debate, but if one were to pply your logic, Section 8 should grow, because the only to attract more residents in through Section 8, and otherwise, more houses and apertment units would be vacant, therefore bringing property value down. That is precisely your argument on the school levy. How would the failure of a school levy be more or less catacropic than houses sitting idle, with weeks and broken windows surrounding the exterior? You cannot say yes to one in a factual debate and say no to another, as both have the same argument. I disaree the negative results of the school levy would have further negative consequence than already exists. It might stir those sitting in Donham to do their job in ED, and save those already seeing a serious decline in valuation save money.
 
As Pacman makes a good point, the section 8 situtaion and the school ar directly intertwined, as much as one on ocassion, would want them seperated. If you increase section 8, which will occur for the arguments its better to have houses occupied than sitting idly, has a negative impact upon school performance. if you accept the notion the socio economic dimension negatively impacts school performance. That's the argument the school board has used.
 
In sum, you are correct: section 8 exacerbates a bad situation and by voting YES, we all absorb more tax burden as an outcome. You cannot bifurcate the two issues, they are completely intwined. As there is no stopping 8, using your argument others have made,, better to have section 8 renters and houses occupied, because of that benefit outweighing the detriment from homes sitting idle, as VET so accurately stated the solution then to be an ED problem. You can't have your argument both ways, as the logic in section 8 is actually more compelling than voting yes on the school board levy.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2010 at 1:24pm
Spider- let me approach this from another direction, if I may. Given that you are a businessman, and given the fact that you know what it takes to run a successful business, making a profit, and, given the fact that to run a successful business, you know that you need employees who perform in a working environment and you know it must operate while watching costs, inventory, employee performance, customer satisfaction, facility costs/maintenance, taxes, transportation costs, etc. I have a question for you.

Knowing what you know about the Middletown School System (in the business of education) as to facilities, manpower costs, academic performance, customer (citizen/taxpayer) satisfaction, and overall returns for the money spent, would you buy this system (if it were a business) as it is operated today? Or, would it be considered a risky investment for you as a business owner and you would want to see some changes made to reassure you that you were getting something for your money?

For me, there are too many negatives to contemplate putting any of my cash toward purchasing or as a partial owner. In it's present condition, it is not a purchase or money investment option. I don't wish for my tax money to go toward what we have now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2010 at 1:36pm

Hey Vet if the schools were run like a business and the government butted out, it would be far more successful than it is currently.   Between the Feds and the State the system is screwed up, then you have the unions to deal with, recipe for disaster right there, which is exactly what we have currently.  Don't even get me started on some of the parents and lack of discipline in the schools.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2010 at 1:50pm
honestly--it is acombination of everything mentioned above, then wrapped up petfectly with pacman's close.
 
acclaro--my thinking/direction doesn't really fit where you are trying to pigeonhole me into a corner.
I am not tying section 8 to the consequences of levy passage or performance(while I have consistently addressed the performance issues).
 
Section 8--Council
School levy--BOE
 
When it comes down, I prefer to take a chance with possible improvement coming through the schools before I trust Council/Admin to willing move in another direction. I no longer like dealing with the city--talking with the city--watching the city in action--and want no real activity with them. I do want to put some hope and positive direction in the lives of the students(I know--sounds hokey and cliche'd).

We all aren't that far apart as to our thinking. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smartman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 15 2010 at 3:54pm
Well said Spider. The city is failing us. Just look around. The schools can be the bright spot for this community. That's why we need this levy to pass. We have a new leader even if it is by default. We need to give him a chance. He is from a situation very close to ours, maybe his new blood will make a difference. Lets dont let him start with half a deck. As for performance it is very hard for teachers to teach to a test, then have have the state change it every year. Hopefully a new leader will have new ideas to get parents involved with their childrens education.  That is the first step in improving performance.
 
We all agree with each other and disagree on other points. There are many positives in MCSD. Having a daughter at the high school and being involved in her activities, I see more good than bad. Unfortunately the students that dont care, have no support system at home are the ones that are bringing down the scores. I agree with Spider, if I'm going to take a chance, let it be with the schools.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 16 2010 at 9:16am
Don't a convincing argument. The city could say th school system failed the city, and if results were EXCELLENT, more residents would mov in, and the city could do more. I said they are both intertwined, and without addressing BOTH, you are guaranteeing continued failure. Section 6 feeds the problem in the school as I hear often. sj states he believes those kids will improve. Smartman says the school district can be a beacon of hope. Well, that beacon of hope was tried for 7 years or greater, and isn't shining bright---that is an undeniable fact. It is impossible to address the school problems without addressing low income, section 8, and the other enormity problems Middletown has. Passing this levy does nothing to address that problem, and if it were a beacon, we'd have more residents wanting to move in, than move out. As property values will decline, we are all left with paying higher taxes in spite of the "it won't raise your taxes", associated with decline in valuation. Its that simple. "Maybe" new blood will fix the problem Smartman? As section 8, using your analysis, the scores will be in a circuitous CI mode. Sometimes its better to trust the "devil" you know than the devil you don't. With the waste apparent in the schools and everyone agreeing low score from those less fortunate are impacting performance, we are back to where we started: throwing good money will not alter a very bad situation.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TudorBrown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 16 2010 at 1:19pm
I'm having a hard time with this one.....  I'm thinking Yes.... Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rngrmed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 17 2010 at 1:24am

As much as I think the parents should be held accoutable, lets not give students a free walk either.  Even though their parents are on Section 8.  There are plenty of opportunities to be had.  My mother was on welfare growing up and I made a decision I wasn't living like that.  The couselors at the high school never told me or gave me any information about college, how any of it worked, nothing about student loans or grants.  I had to find out for myself.  Some of the kids on Section 8 might try a little harder if they knew there were some opportunities available to them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 21 2010 at 12:32am
Originally posted by spiderjohn spiderjohn wrote:

smartman is correct.
we do not need to go backwards, especially to this degree.
 
factor in the potential increase in potential polarization, cuts, threats and negative pub(though failed levys are hardly news), and we will go backwards.
 
YES is probably the only positive constructive answer, then hope for the education machine to move in the right direction with the new leadership. How else can you view things if you want any progress.
Spiderman,
Help me understand your views here, please.
Given all of the logic of the past bright past, that MORE money is needed to improve, to continue funding at the present level can only mean to continue the present results, at best!!! 
 
The MCSD, as of the last complete school year, ranked 592nd out of 610 districts in Ohio.  It simply is not possible to go much farther backwards.
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 21 2010 at 7:35am
Hopefully not MORE money Mike--but you don't read me saying that it won't happen.
You have seen what happens when these BIG financial hits happen.
Ity is ugly and stressful for everyone.
I heard that we were rated 595 out of 615
 
Hopefully the new Super will make a difference much more posirive than the last super,
 
I am not in love with any of this, however I don't honestly see a better realistic option.
 
I am mostly concerned about the lack of organized support from the teachers,parents and students.
Seems that they should be leading this parade instead of a few board members and private citizens.
If our teachers won't support this, then MAYBE we have the wtrong group of teachers.
 
Still--if we don't pass this, what better options and direction do you see or can construct?
 
I am voting YES on this one issue because I honestly believe that it is the logically correct choice.
It pretty much has to be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2010 at 7:03am
Spider- the levy approval and a yes vote is the "most logical choice"? It "pretty much has to be"? After over 30 years of watching the Middletown schools wander aimlessly, adrift at sea, with no upward positive indications that it will ever change, what would re-gifting them the money, do for us? We all know that the pro-levy people are predicting that there will be rampant disease and pestulence, the roof will collapse and Rome will burn if the levy isn't passed, but how about you pro-levy people telling us what we can expect from this school system if it does pass. What gives us any indication that things will be different this time around if we continue to give them more money to operate the same way they have been operating for 30 years?????Have they even attempted to make any radical changes after all these years? NO. Have they listened to the message about what the people expect from the schools that they are paying for? NO. Have they continued on the high salary/teacher's union dominated negotiations path all these years? YES. Do they continue to carry positions within the school system that are not needed like the "school spokesperson"- Alberico and multiple assistants? YES. Spider- isn't it time for the crap to hit the fan? Isn't it time to force a change, because you know as well as I, the education people haven't/won't change their little safe haven of operation on their own. Isn't it time to just let the state have it, strip it down to the bare essentials, gut the people who won't change and start over in the school's reconstruction? Whether the levy passes and the schools continue the decline because they refuse to change or the schools untimately go to the state to run, it is going to be painful to watch. With a state takeover, at least we will see a different group that will come in to run it. Perhaps that can be the change we want.???? We sure won't see it with the status quo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2010 at 3:36pm
Looks like Dennis Newell is taking some shots at the anti-levy people in town. He says we are viewing the kids in the district as failures. Nope, Denny, we never said they were failures, only the system that is attempting to provide them with a decent education. The system is the problem. If there is failure, it is the operation of the current Midd. school system that is the culprit. Nice try, but the age old guilt trip of "blaming the levy opponents" ain't gonna work. Now, you want to use the kids to envoke a response. A new low, Denny babes! Get on the computer- read the results on the proficiencies since it was developed and administered and tell us with a straight face you are still proud of what you have produced. Review the history of the 30 indicators and tell us all how the neighboring schools have achieved at least 50% when Middletown has been stuck at 5 of 30 for years. Then, tell us why that happened and what the proposed plans are to increase the success rate. We won't believe you because you and others have been promising improvement for years with no positive results. Come on Denny-you can do better than this article as to telling the truth. Admit it- it was all written to protect your little educational empire you have built over the years- right? Mercy!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2010 at 3:39pm
While you are at it Mr. Newell take a look at the failure Middletown has become as far as Discipline also.Thumbs%20Down
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spiderjohn View Drop Down
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Joined: Jul 01 2007
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 22 2010 at 6:40pm
had a very long answer typed, vet
it didn't stick and I was too lazy to copy first
my bad
 
while you make a few good points(nothing new), I disagree with the conclusion of your thinking.
How many times must you say the same thing?
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