Central Avenue Demolition Project
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: Economic Development
Forum Description: Local government efforts to develop the local Middletown area economy.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2387
Printed Date: May 13 2024 at 9:55am
Topic: Central Avenue Demolition Project
Posted By: randy
Subject: Central Avenue Demolition Project
Date Posted: Dec 01 2009 at 9:04am
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BACKGROUND and FINDINGS The City currently owns 1329 and 1347 Central Avenue and will acquire 1325 Central Avenue. 1325 and 1327 Central will be demolished in the first phase of the project. Once funds are available, 1347 Central will be demolished. For the complete information on this project you can read it here http://www.middletownusa.com/view_news.asp?a=4778 - Central Avenue Demolition Project ------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Replies:
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Dec 07 2009 at 11:12pm
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1347 Central is the Studio Theater. Hopefully the delay in funds will be long and an alternative to demolition is found. ------------- |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 08 2009 at 7:55am
| Support you got a Million or two to pour into the Theater, anyone.........I didn't think so. City can't survive on a maybe or hopefully. Tear it down and lets move on to the 21st century. Enough indecision and moving along at a snails pace. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 08 2009 at 8:26am
| Randy Please call Mr. Robinett and find out what the demo cost for the Strand Theater will be. I have not been able to reach him. I believe it was about $400,000 |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Dec 09 2009 at 12:21pm
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The demolition bid for the Studio and Barb's Pub was around $400,000 combined. Just tearing down the Studio is probably half that.
Wasteful, I don't have half a million. The State of Ohio's Historic Preservation Tax Credit Program (25% of project costs, the Federal Preservation Tax Credit (20%), and the Ohio Cultural Facilities Commission (funded much of the rehabilitation of the Palace Theater in Hamilton) could help though.
You just have to be creative and tap all resouces. Middletown only seems to know how to tap funds to tear down the city, not built it up. ------------- |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 09 2009 at 1:20pm
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Support what would you do with it once you renovated it? Middletown's support of such endeavors is dying as the population that would support such things is either moving out of town or passing away. Support think 21st century rather than what was.
http://www.butlerchaps.org/ - http://www.butlerchaps.org/
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Dec 09 2009 at 1:29pm
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If the Hamilton Civic Theatre can restore and renovate the historic Palace Theatre, why can Middletown Lyric Theatre consider doing the same with the Studio/Strand instead of being in a dumpy looking building downtown. And since Middletown is attempting to create and Arts Central District, this would make more sense.
Cities all across the US are finding saving their old theaters/movie houses and finding new uses for them.
Once they're gone; they're gone.
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Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Dec 09 2009 at 1:49pm
The most beautiful arthouse theater I've ever been in.... If you read its history, you'll learn a bit about how/when it was restored. Fayetteville, NC's downtown is an interesting area... http://www.cameoarthouse.com/index.html - The Cameo in Fayetteville, NC. |
swohio75 wrote:Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 09 2009 at 2:02pm
| Swohio personally I think Hamilton is farther along in a recovery than Middletown is, just my opinion. That is why I asked what would you do with it, that would be self supporting in Middletown? |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Dec 09 2009 at 6:45pm
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Wasteful: While that is probably true, it doesn't mean that Middletown is to the point that everything needs to just be torn down and forgotten. If Middletown chooses this path, they will always be behind Hamilton. ------------- |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 09 2009 at 7:39pm
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Sorry to disagree with you Support I think Middletown has passed the point where they should have been tearing down a hell of a lot years ago. No one is answering my question. What are you going to do with the Theater that will make it self supporting in Middletown and not a drain on Tax payers? What could you put in there that Middletown will actually pay money to go see or do and keep it maintained, employees paid, taxes paid, utilities paid, etc.?
Support, people are leaving Middletown in droves, not just a trickle, but droves. People that pay the taxes that keep the city going are leaving as fast as they can. The number of Houses that have gone up for sale just on Marshal and Manchester Rd. is staggering.
Saving a few old buildings is not going to solve the problem. Your children are going away to college to never return to Middletown as there are no new economy or old economy jobs for them. Just who are you savings these buildings for. If you ask your kids do they want to go to the Studio or to Kings Island or the Movie theater over near Kings Island what do you think they will say. I think you know the answer. You are wanting to preserve these buildings for yourself and the old Middletown residents and we are not the future of this city, the young are. But you are ignoring them for your own self gratification. Most everything Middletown does is not for the future but for the now to support the less fortunate, the elderly, the Middle aged crowd, it is not for the future of this city.....which is our children.
You can preserve all of the buildings you want and all of the memories you want, but those will die away with you and your children will leave never to return and why so you can remember when you were 13 and went to the The theater on a Friday night and had a great time.
While today Middletown children do what, think about getting away from here.
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Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Dec 09 2009 at 8:06pm
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Wasteful: That is a pretty comical point, considering I am fresh out of college and only interested in Middletown because it is a historic community. I don't have any romantic memories of the Studio, except it being closed and abandoned.
The failing with your logic is that we don't have Kings Island. We have a suburban interchange with a hospital...an amenity that generates income, but only really improves quality of life for older residents.
All Middletown has going for it is its historic and urban assets. The east end offers nothing that suburbia at the next interchange offers. Pretty soon, it will make more since to move to Germantown, Hamilton, or Miamisburg if you want a historic community. ------------- |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 09 2009 at 9:10pm
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Yup that is comical I had you pegged as someone much older and another resident who thinks Middletown has a bright future on its current path.
The failing in your logic is that we have those steel boxes that have 4 wheels and go 0-60 in about 6-8 seconds. For you college graduates that would be an automobile makes short work of getting to Kings Island and other places which seem to attract the younger crowd.
Can I book you a moving van anytime soon. You act as if Middletown is an island and there is no way out. Sorry to say there many finding their way out of Middletown.
Once again you fail to answer the most basic question. What would you do with the Theater, that would make it financially feasible in Middletown? Fourth time I have asked this question today and no one can answer the question other than to say we should spend 100's of thousands to save it then figure out what to do with it.
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 09 2009 at 9:22pm
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Support, I apologize, I was wrong the youth of Middletown have found a use for those old buidlings downtown.
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Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Dec 09 2009 at 10:15pm
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My post clearly acknowledges the automobile. I'm telling you, I have no roots established in Middletown and can choose to live somewhere else if the city continues to demolish prime historic properties like this one. I need a reason to live in Middletown. If I am only concerned with Kings Island, I'll move to Mason.
We actually did suggest a use--the Middletown Lyric Theater. Perhaps the Middletown Fine Arts Center could relocate in the building as well. The possbilities are endless if you have an open mind. You are stuck in an abstraction that nothing will work downtown and have completely given up. Maybe you just save the front commercial part of the structure and demolish the theater behind? Maybe you relocate a county office there? Why not think about some options before ruling every possibility out.
You complain about spending hundreds of thousands for restoring the building, but are somehow okay with the same to demolish it. The end result is a vacant lot, more of an eyesour in an urban stretch than the current theater.
The basic point here is that it doesn't need saving from anyone but the city. The building is not a public hazard like the adjacent Barb's Pub building. Will renovation ultimately work? Perhaps not. Or perhaps it can happen and spare taxpayers the expense of demolition.
The issue now is that the city took this building over for $1. Why would they ever do this? They basically just took on the responsibility of a private property owner for all the citizens of Middletown to bear. So if we want to save the building at this point, the city (and thus the taxpayers) may end up bearing some costs. This is the city's failing, not those who care about maintaining a downtown that doesn't look like a bombed out warzone. ------------- |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 4:19am
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Support Middletown: This is just a thought: Why didn't YOU buy the building? (You could.ve outbid the city by offering only $1.50! I would've been happy to DONATE the money!) Then you could've put it to one of those "good uses" that you mentioned. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 9:43am
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Support M--Lyric Thear or Fine Arts would be excellent choices IF they were self-sustainable and could fund the re-build. But we know that while they are quality/worthy organizations, they are cash poor and have no substantial customer base/community appeal. Much like the Sorg Opera Guild.
A decision probably should be made as to keep either the Sorg Opera House complex or the Strand/Studio. The Sorg changeover to the current ownership doesn't seem to have gone well, and if that structure can't be maintained, then it will be looking at the wrecking ball. If we proceed with an arts theme in that area(works for me!-I like that stuff if it is quality and not just local amatuer filler), then it must be done by the private sector and property owners on their dime(then they can do whatever their hearts desire). Enough public $$ has been squandered on this area with little to no effective results.
The current over-payment for the small space adjacent to the theater/pub was absolutely insane, as was the $275,000 evaluation for the former Office Outfitter's site(to justify the "equal $$" trade-off for the much more desireable block for Duncan. Our ED Dept. is way out of line, and not in touch with any aspect of the business community. A new gas station(replacing an old gas station) and a convenient store dropped into an area already full of convenience options is hardly a landmark improvement when you factor in the business/job losses from the EXISTING entities impacted by this move"(has ED had ANY contact with other long-term affected businesses?). Not to mention the overall cost of this venture and municipal subsidy.
It is apparent that property owners in the area can let their holdings sit/deteriorate until the city over-pays them for their buildings, followed by the expense of demo and creating a larger vacuum.
As another poster mentioned, I don't expect our new Council to do anything differently other than drink the current batch of municipal kool aid currently being served.
Wasteful made a very tough but accurate post(imo) concerning just whom is being served by this "progress/plan" and whether it has any meaning whatsoever to our younger generations who see finer options/amenities at virtually every exit/road in virtually any direction one wishes to travel.
And as Mr.P says--Support, put yer $$ where your mouth/heart is.
If you can't fund/implement yer thinking, then find private entities that can.
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 9:43am
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Support, I have an open mind and would have no problem with Private funds renovating the theater and maintaining it so the taxpayer is not left holding the bag once the investor fails financially.
There are few businesses downtown which can support themselves on what Middletown Residents spend downtown, Beauverre, Walden, 56 Degree, Digital Visual, all can not survive on what Middletown residents are willing to spend downtown. Beauverre, Digital Visuals, Walden all rely on outside sales for their survival, 56 Degree went under for now. Just how do you think Middletown is going to support a Starving artist district? It is not.
Why has Sorg Opera Company basically failed downtown?
You do not have enough residents that will support such endeavors living in this town and the ones that would are leaving. You have a poverty rate that could be as high as 25%+. You have by the U.S. Census estimates a declining population as of 2008, 2010 will tell for sure. You have a city which is catering to the low income individual, that will not support the arts, rather than the Middle Income individual which would grow the city.
The city can't even support the basics of retail amenities and yet we are to support the arts.
 The City is of the mind that the rail system is going to be some magic bullet which is going to bring in tourists by the droves to support an art district. Many do not subscribe to this fairy tale. You have to at least have some semblance of being a destination city before that will happen....Middletown is not.
Businesses on the east end are failing. Why are people going to support the arts when they can't even pay their utility bill?
If you had a city with a different makeup of residents then I may go along with your grandiose dreams, but under the current circumstances you don't in Middletown. Not Even a majority of the City employees live in the city anymore.
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Posted By: Mr. Dave
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 10:11am
Wasteful, I agree there is no way that Middletown can or will support an art district. Here is a plan for downtown that I heard and loved , and I would support.. Get a bulldozer with a mile wide plow start at the train tracks on the corner of Central and University and push everything west into the river and let Hamilton deal with it downstream in a few days.
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 10:33am
And exactly what does this accomplish?
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Posted By: Mr. Dave
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 10:48am
| cleans up downtown and gets rid of all the hookers and drug dealers to start. Let me ask you something SWOhio and every one else that has all these ideas for downtown, when was the last time you were down there and not just driving through. |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 10:56am
| I spent over an hour Monday afternoon at the Middletown Arts Center. |
Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 11:00am
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IMO - I don't think any of us want to have the theatre demolished. They do not make buildings with the same character anymore. I have memories of going there with my parents to see movies. However - at some point it becomes a liabilty. A few years ago I was talking to someone that did maintenance for the Finklemans and he said at that time the building was beyond repair. To the best of my knowledge - buildings do not recover on there own. I do not like that the city bought it for a dollar to tear down - this should have been taken care of by the owner. If I remember this year a lot of individuals received citations to make repairs on their house - this building should have the same treatment. Last I heard was it was hard for a homeowner to get assistance for there home. However someone just received a big break by letting the city foot the bill.
Support Middletown - you are fresh out of college - did you study ecomomics? This building has been for sale for years - no one bought it because you would have to put more money in it then it is worth. You would never get a loan on this from any bank. So you would have to put up cash. Not a smart business move to invest in something that will have a negative cash flow. Yes you can get some grants - however you would have to secure some of the financing (or your own cash) prior to receiving any grant money.
Again I would love to see the theatre saved to take my kids there like my mom took me. My mom would love it as well - as she remembers going there with her friends. But if it is beyond repair - there really is not much that can be done.
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 11:12am
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BTW – I would be more than happy to frequent downtown if there was more business Open up a micro brew or restaurant with good food and a great beer selection—I’ll be there over Applebee’s ANY day. I think Bullwinkle’s made a mistake with their location and should have considered downtown. The times I’ve been there, they sure don’t appear to be thriving. Coffee Shop? I’d pass Java Johnny’s on Central Avenue to go to one downtown—especially one that had later hours on the weekend and better service. Looking for a unique gift? I’d stop by Beau Verre before driving to Would prefer to see a performance in a more historic and urban setting versus at Dave Finkleman – and did so on a number of occasions with Rising Phoenix Visiting guests—happy to refer them to the Manchester Inn over the hotels at 75/122 The problem with downtown really—property owners who have held their property too long without make investment. Not everyone is in love with suburbia or |
Posted By: Mr. Dave
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 1:06pm
| SWOhio, An hour spent downtown does not count, When 56 Degrees was open did you go? And the real problem with downtown is not the property owners, the real issue is the neighborhoods around downtown. they are drug and hooker infested. Until the city takes the time to clean up those areas nothing will make it there. I don't care what they put there, if you go there and park and have to deal with a crime element you wont go. Face the facts Downtown is a a piece of crap that needs to go. |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 1:40pm
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You asked when I last spent any time downtown, and I think you were caught off-guard that I ACTUALLY had spent time downtown this week—beyond just passing by. So now it’s convenient for you to say an hour spent downtown doesn’t matter because you don’t want to look like you have egg on your face. And yes, I did go to 56 Degrees when it was open. Had drinks and food there. Drove out of my way to purchase wine there to support a local business. I don’t disagree that the surrounding neighborhoods are bad. I believe the city should deal revitalizing neighborhoods—including demo--instead of bulldozing a semi-dense urban area that has some character. You say run a bulldozer down Central. Then what? You really haven’t solved the neighborhood and drug/prostitute issue. What's your plan once our "piece of crap" downtown is gone? |
Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 3:02pm
Wow! So what does "count" for spending time downtown????? |
Posted By: Mr. Dave
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 3:16pm
No egg on my face here, you spent on hour there, I live there and spend all my time downtown. I dont just come down here when it is convenient to do so. As for solving the problem of drug dealers and hookers with no buildings there is place for them to do their work, a bull dozer would fix that.
Now, the whole comment was a joke I thought it was funny. Lets be real here SWOhio, downtown is in shambles and bringing a train here or some art does not fix that. until the city steps up and takes a hard stance on whats going down there it wouldn't matter what they put there. Putting sugar on sh*t doesn't make it sugar. I was just downtown a few minutes ago and saw a homeless man drinking a beer as he walked down the street, cop drove by did nothing about it. No one wants to admit that downtown is gone and whats left is a true picture of what our town has become, A lowincome, section 8, drug deals typr of town.
Yea lets bring a train here or better yet lets make it an art district because thats the answer to all Middletown's problems.
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Posted By: Mr. Dave
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 3:25pm
My point was and is Marianne, that people come on here and say what downtown needs or what the city needs to do with it. But they dont live here or come down here except to drive through. To me an hour spent downtown once in a while doesn't count, sorry. What will it take for people to see the area for what it is, a waste of money.
The average person is up 16 hours a day thats 112 hours a week, so an hour out of that 112, an hour spent downtown doesn't count.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 5:06pm
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Actually one hour is more than enough time to assess the situation. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 8:23pm
Prime example of the Arts and Middletown. This is an Article in todays MJ:
What the Dickens is going on?"Lyric Theatre sings a different carolBy Eric Robinette, Staff Writer
3:22 PM Thursday, December 10, 2009
MIDDLETOWN — Many people are filled with the spirit of Christmas, but Middletown Lyric Theatre is filled with three Christmas spirits. This year the Lyric Theatre puts its own spin on “A Christmas Carol.” The show, called “The Spirits of Christmas,” runs today through Sunday at the Middletown theater on 1530 Central Ave. “Spirits” turns the familiar Charles Dickens tale into a musical journey, courtesy of lead actor and director William “Kip” Moore. “We wanted to do a variety of Christmas songs, but not just do a lot of singing,” Moore said. Moore plays himself, but as a Scrooge-like figure who has turned into, of course, a humbug. He’s especially grumpy at the commercialization of Christmas, complaining of overpriced merchandise and the ubiquitous Santa’s helpers, Moore said." Now this is the citizen comment to go with the article:Somebody wake me up when its over. 12$ for a ticket to see a play or musical by a bunch of rookies, no thanks.
sammy |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 8:38pm
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The above attitude runs rampant in Middletown. Just in the last two weeks in my business in Middletown I have had customers ask/tell me: I shouldn't be charging the poor for my Service or retail Items. I should basically give it to them.
I have had a customer ask me why I charge more than what I pay for an item.
I have had another customer tell me I should be providing the Service for Free.
And my favorite was the young lady who came in and when I rang her up looked me in the eye and said, "What if I don't pay you."
To which I said, "what if I call the Police."
She countered, "What if I walk out the door", and toward the door she goes.
Well in her haste to beat feet out the door she left some paperwork on the counter. I picked up the paperwork and opened it. I then said to her, "Your name is such and such and you live at xyz St. in Middletown, you go on home and I will have the police meet you there." Then I said, "well looky here it states you are on Section 8. After I call the Police I think I will call Consoc and the City and we will see how long you are on Section 8." Section 8 last person to be trying this crap with is me.
 Well those were the magic words the money came flying out of her purse and onto the counter and out the door she went.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 8:56pm
Well done, Pac!!  ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Dec 10 2009 at 10:49pm
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 11 2009 at 6:36am
Your story about your various customers is killing me Pac! I am dying inside to know that the QUALITY of the people living in Middletown now is so much different than it was back in the "good times". We had folks living here that, majority-wise, were honorable and worked hard. Most were ashamed to take a handout and were embarrassed if they couldn't fend for themselves and carry their own load in life. Decent, respectable families raised decent kids who went on to make something of themselves. Now- because of our welfare ladened town theme, (thanks past/present city leaders!) we are attracting these kinds of people who want freebies, think the world owes them everything, could care less about respectibility, and want those that demonstrate responsibility to hand them things. I just wish you non-native folks could have seen this town back then. It was totally different. The city was actually run in a competent fashion. Now- we have inept, mis-focused people running our town spreading their blight,poverty sticken programs to create the slum city of SW Ohio.   Mercy, I hate what they're doing to this town.
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 11 2009 at 6:41am
| Supprt, it would appear that Middletown is in the demolish it and do away with the Dead wood mode. If you want to Save a Building buy it, renovate it, spend your funds starting a business in it and then Pray. It seems you want someone else to step forward and do all of the work, risk their funds and possibly waste taxpayers money, while you sit on the sideline and complain about the downtown going the way of the dinosaur. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 11 2009 at 8:39am
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welcome to my world, pacman must have been too cold to stand in line elsewhere while barefoot and wearing pajamas. the "entitlement generation" mindset permeates our community, thanks to city admin still waiting for Mr.Adkins and staff to reduce the #s
we(the public and business community) can't support them, and our admin has no real plan for them other than to spend the fed funds recieved on internal job security
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Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Dec 11 2009 at 9:28am
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I went downtown once,I took a tour of all the abandoned & empty buildings. Yep...downtown,thats where I went. Wasn't much to see,I spent an hour or two down there...yep downtown. I seen the sites,downtown. I walked first west then east,yep downtown thats where I was. Yep no place like downtown,all the things you see and all the nice people,all downtown. Thats where I was at,downtown. Yep,good ole downtown. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Dec 11 2009 at 11:07am
Amazing... Please tell me (or send me a private message) what business you're in?  |
Posted By: Mr.PawnBroker
Date Posted: Dec 11 2009 at 3:42pm
| If you want to see some amazing people in action you should hang out at my store sometime. It will blow your mind. |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Dec 14 2009 at 11:36pm
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The last photos of the 1325 and 1329 Central   Further down the block, one wonders if other commerical buildings could be in the city's demolition program.
Revelos is coming down with the Duncan deal
 This block is partially occupied, but not all that attractive
 A respectable building ruined with rainbow colors
 Restored, this could be a great block
 Rear of said block
 Across the street, I am not concerned about the loss of these now-lonely buildings
 Closer to the core of downtown sits this attractive block. Although it is vacant currently, I doubt the city would consider demolition in its good condition.
 ------------- |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 15 2009 at 3:03am
Here let me say bye bye to these old relics.  |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 15 2009 at 3:06am
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And look we have the only attraction in downtown Middletown the lovely Rainbow Coalition of what Pawn Shops, Second hand stores. Yeah i would absolutely grab the train from one of the 3C city's to come to Middletown for that one. And the city bitches about rusty gutters......makes you wonder what is going on with the mind trust downtown. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 15 2009 at 6:21am
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Now wait a moment. That color scheme doesn't trip my trigger either. But guess what? Neither does "Williamsburg blue"!!! Does that mean we should tear down all of the Williamsburg blue buildings in town??
You may find those brightly colored buildings unattractive, but they are occupied, commerce is occuring, people are working there, and taxes are being paid. Can you say the same about the Strand/Studio building, the old library building? or many of the other old, broken-down, blighted structures that you find so attractive???
TASTE is an individual preference. Your taste is not "right" simply because it is yours, or your group's!!! Nor is mine right just because it is mine. I can absolutely, positively guarantee you that there are structures in this town that I find MUCH more offensive to the eye than these, yet I not only tolerate them, some are businesses and I PATRONIZE them!!!
You cannot always tell a book by its cover!!! Most often it's what's INside that is important!!!
That's one of the main things WRONG with our city and the people TRYING to run it. They are worried only about appearances and NOT what works!!!
Then again, most snobs are. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Dec 15 2009 at 7:34am
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Mike it has absolutely nothing to do with snobbery. I could care less what is inside of these storefronts. Fortunately aesthetics count for something in this world. Yeah I know you are all for letting businesses do what ever the hell they want in this city, which is fortunately not allowed or we would look worse than we do already. You want to continue to be the joke of SW Ohio then you let things like this continue and that is exactly what you will get. A line has to be draw where personal tastes and attention getting crap like the above is stopped. Here the city is sueing people over signage on the East End and this is going on downtown. There are ways to draw attention to your business without looking like a Nevada Hooker ranch and that is all these businesses have done. I wouldn't use any of the services in these buildings just for the reason of what they have done to the outside of them, my own personal choice whic I am sure you agree with. Using your logic Mike we shouldn't be tearing down any homes, buildings as people made personal choices to let them go and not take care of them and that is their prerogative according to you. At some point you draw the line for the improvement of the community as a whole, not just one persons color blindness. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 15 2009 at 7:38am
Now Mike----- on the subject of TASTE in your post. Can you go ahead and explain your stance on TASTE, as you did here, only convert the targeted subject from the color on the downtown buildings to rooting for a football team called the Bengals.  And...... could you direct your comments/teaching methods/comparisons to Hermes and randy? It may help them understand the meaning of the word- TASTE.   You know me- just trying to help out here.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 15 2009 at 9:39am
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wasteful--I respectfully disagree with your direction above. Small businesses are over-regulated in this city, and with regulations that are piecemeal and helter skelter(no cohesiveness, logic or positive benefit). Further complicated by uneven or a total lack of code enforcement. While Atrium/AK and the chosen east end preferred exceptions are allowed to do anything they choose, backed by Mr.Kohler's last minute emergency variances granted by our rubber stamp Planning Commission. Hopefully a major shake-up will occur on this board next year. The leadership needs changed, and older members(especially former Councilmembers) should be replaced with actual business members from all levels of stature. As I continue to preach, inconsistency and uncertainty breeds discontent, especially in such trying times for local business entities fighting for basic survival like never before.
Ya don't have to be a genius or in the loop to see that our city admin policy/direction has failed miserably. Look at our lack of incoming paired with our out-going business concerns from virtually every business segment. Our consistent failed ED direction and actions go back years with multiple meaningless personalities doing little other than working towards personal career advancement. Remember the bad joke that was called Bill Murphy? Are we now similar with Mr.Robinette and Co?
Face it--the emperor has no clothes.
Our retail environment and mapping is a current disaster and has been evolving in this direction for years with no attention from Council/Admin and no inter-relation with the Chamber or local business community.
One by one the key centers have fallen with little awareness or effort to re-build/strengthen them. Why?
I have begun to market my business entities. I have been told that while my holdings are attractive and functional, those interested don't want to branch into Middletown due to appearance,demographics and outside perception of our community and local government.
Sniping on the small,surviving direction downtown is nothing more than a facade, pretending to be dealing with the issue. We(Council/Admin) spend far too much time on menutia, while shying away from the core, big picture-changing issues. Forget about the re-sale shops and their choice of color, other than the serious legal issue of re-selling stolen merchandise. As our city develops, that environment will be replaced through natural selection. If not, then we haven't really lost anything. Ms.Scott Jones is absolutely correct that the victims of such theft have legal right to the return of their items sold/bought illegally without proper documentation and holding period. Mr.Landen is wrong here, and simply trying to take the easy way out.
Hopefully our next Council will move us in the proper direction, though Mr.Picard seems to be the only new member who understands the business environment, their needs, and their frustrations in dealing with such haphazard municipal regulations and policies. Mr.Laubaugh offers hope with his pro-business and consistent conservative thinking, and Mr.Smith will hopefully learn about these issues quickly. Obviously Mr.Becker,Mr.Mulligan, Mr.Armbruster and Ms.Scott Jones don't care enough. Admin is totally absorbed with self-preservation.
All of the Miami U/MU-M involvement discussion will produce little because these people are academia bureaucrats specializing in endless abstract discussion instead of implementation of sound business policies. Good talkers, theorizers and meeting/committee organizers.
jmo
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Dec 15 2009 at 9:47am
| Spider I have to disagree with you I have been in business in other states and city's and find Middletown's regulations no more restrictive than other city's I have operated in. Now the regs may not be enforced uniformly, I don't see where the city is any worse than any other I have been in and I have been in city's where the regs would make you head spin. Granted some of Kohlers regs on the East end make little sense, but this is where Council needs to step in before they pass the more restrictive ordinances and make changes. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 16 2009 at 2:54am
This is a good example!!! I find the bengals' uniforms quite "distasteful". However, that has nothing to do with what's INSIDE the uniforms. If one dressed the exact same team in the Detroit Lions' uniforms or the New Orleans Saints' uniforms, would it make a difference??? Would one then have a different team, or the same team if the ONLY thing changed was the uniform???
That is the point I was trying to make, and apparently I failed. I am sure that many people find the Bengals' uniforms quite becoming...others, not so much. But their value should be judged by what's INSIDE the uniforms and thier performance, should it not???
If my name was Martin Luther Presta I might say: I look forward to the day where every building in America is judged not by the color of its paint, but by the character of its content! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 16 2009 at 4:21am
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Wasteful: Apparently, I was unclear in my previous response, and you inferred much more than I intended to imply. For that, I apologize. However, I must clear up some of the more important points that you somehow misunderstood.
You stated: "Using your logic Mike we shouldn't be tearing down any homes, buildings as people made personal choices to let them go and not take care of them and that is their prerogative according to you." I don't believe I have ever expressed such a stupid sentiment. If I have, please find it, re-read it and see if I was being cynical, or possibly trying to make a joke (and obviously failing in the attempt.) Also, sometimes I exaggerate to the extreme to try to make a point. Perhaps that could've been so in the case to which you refer? Regardless, my statements in THIS thread certainly have nothing to do with structurally failing or blighted buildings, but were limited to taste. Now, if the building to which you object are structurally unsound are infested, or are a danger to the public in some other way, or if they are operating in an illegal manner--those would all be legitimate reasons for concern and for taking appropriate civil (or perhaps even criminal) action. But WHO is to decide on TASTE??? Will we have “Taste Police” or a "TASTE Committee” or simply a “Taste Czar”???? What if this “Grand Poobah” of taste decides that he doesn’t like the color WHITE on exteriors of structures??? Would THAT be okay with you??? [Note: This is exaggeration to the extreme in order to make a point!!! I do NOT advocate banning white paint!!!] And what if one then painted one’s white home or business beige, and soon after that Grand Poobah retired and his successor found beige to be distasteful and outlawed beige!!! Would THAT be okay? [Note: I am NOT against beige paint either!] What about bright red or yellow??? You seem to find those two colors distasteful in THIS picture that you posted: BUT, do you find bright red and yellow just as distasteful in these two pictures???:
You also state:
Of course!!! I absolutely agree that you have the right to patronize (or NOT patronize) whichever businesses you choose for whatever reasons you choose!!! That is your right, and it is none of my business except to support and defend that right!!! But let me make sure that I understand. Are you saying that you would NOT “use any of the services” inside of either the bright yellow or bright red building above if someone got a proper zoning variance and began offering a service that you needed, and that you would make that “personal choice” “just for the reason of what they have done to the outside of them”??? Is THAT what you are asking me to believe??? If I have understood you correctly, I am sad. I think of all of the towns and even countries I have visited (especially in the south, and in the Caribbean) where you will miss a lot of wonder and adventure simply because you judge buildings by their color! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 16 2009 at 4:33am
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By the way, our fair city's unofficial "Taste Czar" has already banned vinyl siding and aluminim siding, a fact of which few people are aware. This includes certain types of "veneers". Even if you have such siding already on your home legally, if, for ANY reason, you must replace the majority of it, you can NOT "replace in kind" legally!!!
This is solely because a small group of people in town think that artificial materials on homes are "tacky" and have no place in Middletown, so someone snuck this into the building code or zoning restrictions.
The idea of a "Taste Committee" in Middletown is really not that far-fetched!!! We already have an unofficial one!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 16 2009 at 5:39am
Wasteful: You also stated:
Well...no...not exactly "whatever the hell they want"!!! What I do object to is the CITY trying to decide, make that mandate, what kind of businesses we will have and how they will operate, to the point that they keep business OUT!!!
Do you recall Steve Posey? He used to own all of the McDonalds in town. He was a good man, a good civic participant, a generous contributor to good causes, an all-around good guy with a fair amount of dough. He was NOT "in" with the "in crowd"! He wanted to build a couple (3, I think--it has been a while) buildings on spec on Cincinnati -Dayton Road just south of Oxford State Road. The city wouldn't let him!!! They wanted to know exactly what kind of businesses would come in, exactly how many employees, and exactly what the payroll would be before they would give him a building permit. This guy had a proven track record and was a pillar of the community!!! He told them that he's had enough of Middletown's "business friendliness" and he went to Monroe and built those building on spec, and they are thriving today!!
"The City" has been "planning" Middletown's businesses ever since I returned here in June of 1998, and look where it has gotten us!!! They only want "tasteful", upperclass businesses to come here while we have THOUSANDS of skilled, blue-collar tradespeople out of work!!! Our educational system is pumping out a thousand or so MORE unskilled Middletonians every year who cannot afford to move and who cannot afford more training, and--surprise, surprise--cannot find jobs!!! Yet, every time someone wants to try something, with their OWN MONEY, someone like Schiavone or Kohler puts the kibosh on it! THEY say that THEY don't think this business or that can't succeed, so they won't allow it to try. They keep spending taxpayer money on the businesses THEY want...but WHERE ARE THOSE BUSINESSES???
And don't tell me about the economy, the economy has NOT been in the tank all the while since 1998!!!
If these geniuses are such business Einsteins, why don't THEY start "the kind of businesses that "we should have"??? Ooops...one of them did, didn't he??? And it FAILED, even though HE was allowed to violate the SIGN ORDINANCE in order to try to draw additional patrons!!! (The sign ordinance is just ONE of the stupid laws that I think needs to be re-written!!!) Kohler and the Taste Committee believe that signs that can actually be SEEN are "tacky" and therefore are not to be allowed in Middletown!!!
There was a gentleman named Martin who wated to open a restaurant and "blues club" in Ward 2 a couple of years ago. It was going to replace a corner store outside of which druggies hung. I could not believe what the Taste Committee put this poor gentleman through!!! He even had a group of church ladies that spoke in his favor. The Taste Committee did everything but demand to reserve approval rights over the menu!!! I was in favor of this because it sounded like I could get hot food later at night. (There is NOWHERE in Midlletown where one can get non-fast food in the wee hours, and I like to eat very late at night! I used to be able to go to Barb's Pub after the bar closed on Thu, Fri, and Sat) Anyway, they finally cut the guy's hours and put so many other restrictions on him, it was no longer worth even trying to start the business.
Anyway, the fact is NOT that I believe in letting business "do what the hell they want". I just believe that any legitimate business that wants to have a go at it with their OWN funds should be ENCOURAGED, and NOT DISCOURAGED by city hall because it's not "what THEY (city hall) want" or what the Taste Committee wants.
Middletown won't improve until our home-grown, blue collar work force finds employment NO MATTER how many white collar jobs we land around the hospital. The ones who take those jobs will live in other towns up and down I-75 or to the east. The upper class folks that our Taste Committee wants to hob-nob with will NOT come to Middletown until our home-grown blue collar work force unemployment problem is SOLVED!!! (No matter WHAT COLOR the buildings are!!!) ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 16 2009 at 4:28pm
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I would like to volunteer to be the chairperson on the "Board of Good Taste" or the
"Good Taste Committee"!
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 16 2009 at 7:51pm
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Spider: I doubt that is possible!!! The "Taste Committee" is a subcommittee of MMF, and as I recall, you were an outspoken critic of that group (as I was). ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Dec 17 2009 at 9:08am
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lol mike
had an interesting conversation with an in-coming Council person about this organization.
He stated how "we" are mis-informed about this worthy organization(were we ever informed about it--even after ?ing it's direction?).
This person stated that MIDDLETOWN MOVING FORWARD and MOVING MIDDLETOWN FORWARD were completely different organizations. So--I asked just who were members of both organizations? The person replied that the SAME PEOPLE made up both organizations ?!?!?!
So--since city legal drafted the charter on the city dime, the city manager and mayor are members on the city dime, I assume that this is a city Admin organization.
So--where do I apply for membership next year?
Through the city?
Through the Chamber?
Mrs.Mort? Mr.Slagle? Mr.Cohen? Mr.McNeil?
I think that my resume as a long-term local businessman qualifies me for a seat at the table!
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 17 2009 at 9:18am
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This person stated that MIDDLETOWN MOVING FORWARD and MOVING MIDDLETOWN FORWARD were completely different organizations. So--I asked just who were members of both organizations? The person replied that the SAME PEOPLE made up both organizations ?!?!?!
SpiderJohn What?..same people? This makes my brain go…TILT…TILT…TILT |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 17 2009 at 10:13am
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Gonna take a shot hear on the incoming council member who told Spider that these two groups comprised the same members- Picard. He seems like he's "one of them". Has a little know-it-all "arrogance" about him. Perhaps that's just he lawyer attitude in him also. Question for the person (Picard?) who told Spider both groups had the same people as members....... If true, why the need to have two different groups that have (assuming here) the same agendas of "moving the city forward"????? What would be the purpose in that, other than to attempt to disguise and confuse those (outsiders) who would inquire as to the nature of the organizations. Secretive little pests, aren't they? I can just picture the scene in Animal House when they are doing the initiations when Kevin Bacon bends over and says, "thank you sir, may I have another". Just see Mort dealing out the swats with that wicked smile on her face as Gilleland counts out loud and Marty Kohler in the back, licking his chops to get in his fair share. What a comical scene.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 17 2009 at 10:22am
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That sounds just like the city council when they meet with the city manager and other staff behind closed doors in a "pre-arranged discussion of city business". They claim that they are NOT city council but a SUB-committee of city council that just happens to be made up of a quorum (+) of city council members.
Unethical, law-breaking criminals...ALL of them!!!
At least we have the word of Armbruster, Picard, Smith, and Laubach (on record at the candidates' forum at the Community Center) that they would NOT participate in such meetings!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Dec 17 2009 at 12:45pm
I wanted to replace my siding next spring,so now I can't ?!!!! What the hell am I suppose to do ? Let the friggin city tear it down because it's an eyesore or something ?!! Thats why one puts on siding in the first damn place !!
 Gees...I may just let the bank foreclose and move my rear back to Ky where this kind of crap doesn't go on.  ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Dec 17 2009 at 6:43pm
I spend a lot of time in Liberty Twp. There are a lot of 200k Houses there with Vinyl Siding. I guess Middletown wants to be more upscale than Lib Twp! |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Dec 17 2009 at 8:10pm
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Hermes...Mike is insane. As long as your home isn't in a historic district, you are fine with siding. There are design guidelines for new construction as well, but you should be fine otherwise. ------------- |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Dec 17 2009 at 9:41pm
| Well only if you are not doing new construction. New homes must use mostly all natural material (wood, stone, brick, stucco, etc. Unless you request a variance from the ARB. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 18 2009 at 12:23am
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 18 2009 at 5:11am
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Here is a little “light reading” from Middletown’s Codified City Ordinances that some of you sane folks might want to peruse at your leisure: (I would post a link, so you could find it more easily, but find it yourself!!! It’s enough to drive you INSANE!!! ) § 1222.01 CONFORMITY WITH ZONING ORDINANCE. The regulations set by this Zoning Ordinance within each district shall be minimum regulations and shall apply uniformly to each class or kind of land or structure, as provided herein. (2) No building or other structure shall be erected or altered in any other manner contrary to the provisions of this Zoning Ordinance.§ 1222.02 NONCONFORMITY WITH ZONING ORDINANCE. Within the districts established by this Zoning Ordinance or amendments that may later be adopted, there may exist lots, uses of land, structures or uses of structures which were lawful before this Zoning Ordinance was passed or amended, but which would be prohibited, regulated or restricted under the terms of this Zoning Ordinance or future amendment. It is the intent of this Zoning Ordinance to permit these nonconformities to continue until they are abandoned, but not to encourage their survival. It is further the intent of this Zoning Ordinance that nonconformities shall not be enlarged upon, expanded, extended or be used as the basis for adding other structures or uses prohibited elsewhere in the same district.§ 1225.03 ARCHITECTURAL STANDARDS. (b) Building materials.(1) Walls.A. One and one-half and two-story dwellings. All first floor exterior walls that are visible from the street shall be constructed of natural material (stone, brick, wood, stucco, cultured stone, cement siding or hardy plank). All other exterior walls areas of the dwelling may be constructed of other code approved building materials.B. One story dwelling. All exterior walls shall be constructed of natural materials stated in division (b)(1)A. of this section.
PS: If you don’t think the Commission on Landmarks and Historic Structures can FORCE the wrath of God upon you, just look up all the powers they managed to sneak through for themselves over YOUR property…IF you can find it among the 1400 plus pages. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Dec 20 2009 at 8:59pm
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You are drawing conclusions that are not accurate. I can understand from the text you posted above why you might, however. Drive around the city and you can observe vinyl siding being installed on many, many homes. The city has not restricted this. There are even properties within the South Main Street Historic District that have vinyl siding on them; although I'm sure that had to go through the Commission on Landmarks. ------------- |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 20 2009 at 9:46pm
Did you actually "drive around town"??? As you "drive around town" do you stop at these "many, many homes" and check to see if they had building permits???
If these "many, many homes" are having vinyl siding installed they are either:
A: Doing so legally under a variance,
or
B. Doing so illegally.
I can cite laws on drugs here and state a "conclusion" that drug dealing is illegal, yet "drive around the city and and you can observe" drugs being dealt at "many, many" locations. Does that mean that I was "drawing the wrong conclusion" when I said drug dealing is illegal??? ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 20 2009 at 10:00pm
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Regarding the homes in the so-called "historic districts":
Of course they get variances!!! As I have stated before, the whole "history hysteria" in this town is not about history. It is all about keeping out (or kicking out) those that the "it" people find undesirable. When they actually have to do something to their own property with their own money, they tend to do it as cheaply as possible, hence the vinyl siding on their "historic" structure. Their MMF friends make sure they get a variance (if ithey even bother to apply for a permit). It's generally only when its the public's money that nothing but the best will do, just for historical accuracy, of course. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Dec 20 2009 at 11:09pm
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You are wrong. You can argue a million ways that you are right, but I am not wasting my time pulling out pieces of the zoning code and attempting to explain it, because I am sure you would never believe that the city is not out to get you. If you want to think you are correct, go right ahead. ------------- |
Posted By: viper771
Date Posted: Dec 21 2009 at 1:22am
| If you are on the historic register you can also get federal grants if I am not mistaken. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 21 2009 at 8:22am
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |