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Laubach feels Middletown is....

Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: City Council
Forum Description: Discuss individual members and council as a legislative body.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3182
Printed Date: May 05 2024 at 12:42pm


Topic: Laubach feels Middletown is....
Posted By: wasteful
Subject: Laubach feels Middletown is....
Date Posted: Aug 03 2010 at 6:52pm
No longer Middletown without it's downtown.  This is to bad for the other 80-90% of Middletown.  To bad the East End can not secede from Middletown and become it's own thriving City or Township.



Replies:
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 03 2010 at 7:02pm
meek as lambs
Our new Councilmembers are now simply sheep to be led by the shepards.
And the citizens will continue to be fleeced and slaughtered.
 
When will these "stakeholders" start using their OWN money?
So--the city is on the hook for private investors AGAIN with no real gain in our future.
 


Posted By: Nelson Self
Date Posted: Aug 03 2010 at 7:27pm
I'm beginning to regret my vote in the last contested Ward 3 election.
 
Thanks for attending tonight's City Council meeting, SpiderJohn.  What a let-down it must have been for you to see first-hand the two  young City Council members innocently follow the rest of the flock, etc..
 
Just how many times tonight did we hear Mike Robinette utter the feel-good planners term "stakeholders?"


Posted By: TANGO
Date Posted: Aug 03 2010 at 7:43pm
wasteful based on things that tony voted for in his 4 years i dont whink that jump ship this quick


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 03 2010 at 9:43pm

According to The Journal, the Cincinnati Pendleton Arts Center (PAC) has “eight floors filled with hundreds of studios accommodating some 400 artists.” But, according to Law Director Landen (a member of the local illuminati), the Cinci PAC has only 250 artists yet it is out of space and has a waiting list!!! So, who is wrong--The Journal or Mr. Landen???

An “extensive amount of demographic research” was performed, according to Economic Development Director Robinette. But he doesn’t have “real, specific numbers” because they simply do not exist!!! Yet he said over and over that the other PACs have a “long, established track record”!!! If they have a “track records”, trot them out and show us!!!

Additionally, here we are, less than two weeks from implementing this deal and with much work already having been done, and with all of the boosters singing praises and seeming so certain what a great deal this is for our city, yet two main parts remain a complete mystery!!!

The first is “Additional compensation.” In addition to the compensation set forth in paragraph (a)(1) Developer shall complete the interior finishing of the first and second floor of the Property as specified in the final floor plan, attached hereto as Exhibit “B”.

The second is “Repairs.” Prior to the conveyance of the Property, the City shall repair or cause to be repaired, the items described in Exhibit “C”

But where are Exhibits “B” and “C”???

Less than two weeks before this “emergency” is to be acted upon, everyone is certain it is a wonderful deal, yet we don’t even know what “additional compensation” will be paid nor what “repairs” must be made by the city for the deal to happen!!!! How could there possibly have been any sort of financial analysis made on this deal without knowledge of these two important items???

How can either the buyer, Mr. Verdin, or the seller, the City of Middletown, have any idea about possible RETURN ON INVESTMENT???

This is nothing more than either a shot in the dark on a wing and a prayer (at best) or a corrupt, pork-filled, risky scheme to plunder the public treasure (at worst).



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 03 2010 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by spiderjohn spiderjohn wrote:

And the citizens will continue to be fleeced and slaughtered.
 
When will these "stakeholders" start using their OWN money?
So--the city is on the hook for private investors AGAIN with no real gain in our future.
Spot on, Spider!!!
 
Once again, not even a mention of the "bagholders"!!!
 
Once again, absolutely NO REGARD for any of the rest of the residents who have no agenda except the desire for a safe city with sound infrastructure, and an interest in their children's and their grandchildren's tax money in the form of the debt racked up by those seeking to recoup their unfortunate, and often ill-advised, investments at taxpayers' expense.


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 7:12am
Just read Mr. Laubach's comments in the Journal. Mr. Laubach, I have talked to you on occasion and you started out, during your campaign, to be a straight shooter and a refreshing change as opposed to the poor choices we had before for council. In all fairness, I must say, that with this decision, I am now regretting my support for you. Granted, I would never have supported the incumbant Marconi. His decisions were incorrect for the city throughout his years on council despite his indication that he cared for the city.

Could you tell us here on this site, and off the record, why you would think this "artzy" theme for the downtown area will boost interest and revitalize the area? What could Verdin and the arts possibly offer as to decent paying jobs, support jobs surrounding this facility, and in the generation of enough interest to keep the project going for a reasonable length of time? These "coffee shop" employment jobs couldn't pay more than 6 bucks an hour- same with any support jobs that would materialize from this venture. You know as well as I, that 6 bucks an hour isn't enough to live on. Josh, there is no decent employment opportunities in this idea, it will attract only a limited number of people on a monthly basis to the downtown area, you are endorsing the use of hard-earned taxpayer money rather than private funds to risk and it has a good chance of not lasting long because it offers so little to attract people. What could you possibly see in this idea that makes it attractive to you? I would be interested in hearing from Ms. Scott-Jones and Mr. Smith on this matter as well. If you supported this, why? Is there something we, on this site, are missing? How about you, Mr. Picard? You monitor this site as well. What are your "off the record" feelings on this?


Posted By: Jlaubach
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 8:48am

MUSA,

I made last night’s comments for a reason. Given the situation, I feel it’s the best option to support this project do to the success of other Pendelton projects in other areas similiar to our downtown. We desperately need a presence of business and activity downtown. I believe without positive activity the downtown will further decline and attract more criminal activity. This situation is not desirable for Middletown and it cannot be left as is if there is any desire to stabilize and revive our city. I meant what I said and it’s my displeasure to hear the grief it may have caused some. As I stated last night, I have been conflicted about the project simply for the fact that it involves the spending of public money. However, I am no more pleased to have a piece of property sitting on the city's hands which sits vacant (which was purchased before my time). The Over-the-Rhine project is very impressive. In addition, the owner has also purchased historic property in vicinity of the center (A 19th century church to name one) and turned them into very successful ventures in previously abandoned areas. Indications are the same will be done here.

I am sorry to hear the loss of support from some of you. I live my life to try and do what I feel is the best and most principled thing. You can’t be all things to all people all the time. Sometimes no matter what you do half of the folks are going to love it and half are going to hate it. However, that is beside the point. I have to do what I think is best given the situation and circumstances given to me. If it were up to me, many things in government would be very different. I believe in the economic and governing principles laid out by Thomas Jefferson, Adam Smith and John Locke.  But I can only control so much with one vote on Middletown City Council. I must accept the constraints and conditions of previous council decisions, state and federal law and other matters that create the world we live in 2010. I would hope that folks on this site are intellectually honest enough to see that I am a puppet for no one, not on this site, not in the city building and not in the “heavy hitter” class. I cannot nor have I ever proclaimed to do things to make everybody happy. Again, if my words caused a loss of support, I am disheartened by that. However, I must act on what I feel is best for Middletown.

Sincerely,

Josh Laubach



Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 9:02am

Mr. Laubach:

My initial response to your comments is that as long as we have people such as Kohler and Robinette at City Hall doing all in their power to stifle all legitimate business that they deem as "too low class" for their tastes we will NEVER have any choices other than these government give-away type of sure losers!!!
 
If this was a legitimate opportunity, why wasn't anyone willing to try it risking their OWN money???  Simple answer???  They aren't FOOLS!!!


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 9:04am
Get rid of the obstructionists at City Hall and real investors might have a chance.  Throwing taxpayers' grandchildrens' money down the drain will get us NOWHERE!!!

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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 9:15am
Gee, Middletown will NOT be drawing from the SAME area as PAC-Cinci, according to Mr. Robinette's "extensive demographics study"!!!  PAC-scam in Middletown will be drawing from a THIRTY MILE RADIUS!!!
 
Here's a clue: SR 122 is I-75 exit no. 32;  Downtown Cinci is exit ONE (coincidently the exit that is less than a mile from PAC-Cinci.  Here's the math: 32 - 1 = 31 miles!!!
Ooops!!! The same darned area!!!


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 9:23am
Mr. Laubach,

No offense, but it sounds like you need to do your homework on the history and growth of Over-the-Rhine. PAC is not the reason for the grown of Over-the-Rhine. I don't know where you are getting your information, but it is clearly not from anyone telling you the truth. Don't take my word for it, go find out yourself.

You have no business voting to spend hard earned tax dollars on something as goofy as an arts center in a downtown nobody visits except for rock concerts during the summer. Wasting tax dollars is not going to take care of the crime in the downtown area. Focusing on lowering the poverty levels will lower crime.

I remember many years ago a vacationinig Russian and his wife were in downtown Cincinnati at Music Hall. They left after a concert of some sort (most likely the Cincinnati Symphony) and he was murdered right in front of the concert hall. Over-the-Rhine just back in 2001 had riots if you remember, and it took a few years to pull out of that slump. So this excuse of the "arts" alleviating crime is complete nonsense.

I'm just floored reading your excuse for wasting tax dollars. Unbelievable.

This is why I think council members should only serve 1-2 years max at a time so we can vote them out if they are too weak or too easily influenced by this type of behavior.


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 9:31am
Mr.Laubaugh--I believe that Mr.Verdin purchased his Over the Rhine property, and has an invested stake in that project.
Here--we are fixing the building for him and giving him $250,000 to pretty much spend as he likes.
Then we hand this valuable centerpiece property over for NOTHING! Why not maintain ownership in case the project does not perform?
 
Once again, the local taxpayer is on the hook for millions in another ?able attempt to revive an area of the city that is long past it's prime and primary use. You aren't old enough to have lived through the past 40 years of misguided waste and disaster, so you cannot honestly understand.
 
Every area of our business community is in similar shape, but is also being ignored and hung up to dry by Planning and ED. Just what are your plans for the rest of our struggling business community?
 
Most here ARE intellectually honest to the nth degree. We care very much about our community, and prefer to see city $$$ used properly and in a much more spread-out manner. When the city faces financial distress in 1-2 years, you can look back to the millions spent in the area formerly known as downtown, and measure the jobs/income created and how else the $$ could have been used. Please don't approach the citizens for taxation because of more wasted city funds. Mr.Becker hasn't said much, however his comments are right on the money. Still--Councilmembers who have never done major business budgets, and work in subsidized sectors can't be expected to understand life or death finance.
 
Let this large group of area "stakeholders" put up their own $$ instead of the city being on the hook for 1/3 of the cost of the Main St.project. All of those impressive organizations listed are hardly cash poor, as well as the property-owning stakeholders. Put equal $$ in the hands of your EXISTING business owners throughout the community, since it is well-proven that those businesses can create more jobs in a more timely manner with considerably less risk.
 
How about collecting back due loans to existing businesses(ie the Manchester Inn)?
 
If Council was in such a hurry to attend a social function last night, maybe the meeting(or agenda) should have been re-scheduled. Rushing through a meeting in order to attend a pr function is hardly acceptable, a wrong choice of priorities, and an insult to the tax-paying citizens.


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 10:15am
Mr. Laubach:
Fine, feel free to WASTE this money on the SAME OLD FAILED SCHEME!!!
Arts and antiques; Arts and crafts and antiques; Antiques and crafts and arts; History and arts and antiques; crafts and arts and history; history and arts and antiques and OLDE tyme baseball!!!
No matter how you mix it up, it's ALWAYS the SAME old failed thing, yet somehow, this time our money will be safe???  WAKE UP!!! 
We've tried this over and over and over and over...always on the taxpayers dime and always to NO AVAIL!!!
 
The ONLY thing that changes are the dates and some of the stooges.  Everything else remains the same!  The plan fails, the money is gone, the same old bureaucrats find excuses and scapegoats and put out their hands again and laugh all the way to the bank WITH THE PEOPLE'S MONEY!!!
 
What makes you think it will be any different this time??
 
Look at what they are telling you!!!
 
They did "extensive demographic studies" but can't give ANY specifics!!!  They will draw from a THIRTY MILE RADIUS, but the two joints are nearly 30 miles to the inch (as the crow flies) apart!!!  They draw from EXACTLY the SAME demographics!!!
 
NO ONE, not even the ones who are SUPPOSED to be on OUR side, have given ANY kind of "return on investment" type of estimate!!!  Why? Because there IS NO expected return!!!  It is simply THROWING the money AWAY!!!  NO ONE has said anything but wishes and dreams otherwise, yet the seven of you sit there like you are actually considering this???
 
What are we supposed to think??


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 10:24am
Jefferson, Smith, and Locke are rolling over in their graves!!!
 
Franklin is too amazed to even go fly a kite!!!
 
Washingington is wondering why brave men died so that the poor could be taxed to give money to the rich with NO HOPE of a return and not even a good pretense of a presentation!!!  Just tell 'em ANYTHING!!!  They fall for it EVERY TIME!!!
 
NO ONE has made a case and you are considering it a done deal!!!  Are you DAFT???


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 11:51am
I am stunned that all the sheep on council are lapping up the BS thrust upon them by Robinette, et al.  He and Kohler and Judy must have all taken the same course in their Public Administration majors titled "Urban Revitalization-ARTS." 
 
Where is the common sense?   A better idea would be to gather area business owners and ask what growth opportunities they could generate with $250k in assistance.  Guarantee you it would be a better return.
 
Council acts like it's not a big deal and rubber-stamping this as if it is all being done with Verdin's money.  But it's not his money!!!  And why does council not question the "success" of Over-the-Rhine or ask how that area can even be compared to this one.  Why is there an assumptioin that the outcomes would even be the same?


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 11:53am

If I were on council the first question I would ask of Judy, et al. is  WHY SHOULD WE LISTEN TO YOUR DOWNTOWN IDEAS AT ALL?  There is no credibility.  And they better show a heck of a lot more evidence, data, and proof that this can work instead of listening to a couple speeches and believing it on faith.



Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 12:25pm
PERFECT! Mr. Laubach, your response is the perfect example of no constituent representation, which is in epidemic proportion in politics these days.
"Given the situation, I FEEL it's the best option"..
"I BELIEVE without positive activity the downtown will further decline"..
"I MEANT what I said and its my displeasure to hear the grief"...
"I AM no more pleased to have a piece of property sitting"...
"I LIVE my life to try and do what I FEEL is best"....
"I HAVE to do what I THINK is best given the situation"....
I-I-I-I.........
I might remind you that you were elected by the 3rd Ward voters and are SUPPOSE to be representing your constituency in the 3rd Ward area. How many people in the 3rd Ward did you approach to "get an idea" about what the people you speak for on council think about this controversial topic? Would none be an accurate number? In order to come to a conclusion to establish your vote, you needed to talk to the people and relay the majority thinking and transition that to your council vote. Josh, it's suppose to be about WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT YOU TO SAY ON THEIR BEHALF on council, not vote based on your own personal agenda/opinion. The way you handled this excluded the very people you sit behind that council desk to represent. You flat out forgot the people and that puts you in the same category as the Beckers, the Mulligans, the Picards, the Marconi's, and all the other people who sit/ sat behind that desk that have erased 90% of this community from participating in their town's direction. I'm sure you are smart enough to note the results of that type of flawed thinking and the potential drop in support. Would it be prudent to ask around the next time? JMO, of course.


Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 1:13pm

Why would any council member or city employee compare Middeltown to Cincinnati when Cincy has a population of 333,200 (2009 estimates) to Middeltown's 60,000± ?? And to make the statement if it works for Cincinnati it will work for Middeltown is ridiculous !! And to compare Over The Rhine with Middeltown is even more ridiculous !!

What are the stipulations of this Verdin taking over this building ? If the city hands it to him on a silver platter can he decide in 2 years to sell it or abandon it ? Because I'm guessing that the "business" won't be here in 2 years. Middeltown does not have the demographics to support something like this. It was reported that the art center in Cincinnati was successful only after 20 years !! Middeltown doesn't have 20 years to wait.
 
Who is going to go into an abandoned downtown area to buy art ??!!!! The artist who will set up downtown don't even have a place to go eat lunch.
 
This whole deal smells very very bad. The FDA told the fishermen in the Gulf to smell their catch for oil and other contaminants when they catch fish and other seafood,I think someone should be sniffing this deal before we all get contaminated.


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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 1:41pm
Why not just work with MAC to expand their space in order to accomplish the same goals?  Probably cheaper in the end.  Also, Laubach's view which we've heard many times from others about doing something with a "vacant building" rings of just giving up, handing over a city asset for free to just to wash your hands of yet another property.  why not just tear it down like all the other projects going on right now?
 
Not sure what spell some witch put over council (and other cities' councils) that enable them to think the "arts are the answer" for economic problems.  The arts are the interest of the very few, not the many.  And since when have art and artists ever been known for economic vitality?  They call them starving artists for a reason.


Posted By: Jlaubach
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 1:49pm

vet,

Yes I am your 3rd ward rep. Yes I represent the voters. I have never received a phone call or an email from you, spider or others on concerns with this issue. I know you both and have spoken to you in person. I have never given you or others any reason to believe that you cannot pick up the phone or shoot me an email. I have held two town hall meetings (The overwhelming issues brought to my attention involve Section 8) and will hold another. For three council meetings in a row I declared my most recent meeting and encouraged everyone with any concerns, comments or ideas to come forward. Only 8 people showed.  The discussion from attendees was again Section 8 and the use of NSP funds. Spider can attest to that, he was there. The line of communication is wide open (And it will stay that way from my stand point). If you think I am wrong, fair enough. I can take criticism.  However, please do not  put me with other people because you disagree with what I say. Furthermore, I would encourage you or any others on this site to call or email me instead of only posting your concerns on this site. As I have stated before, I don’t always visit the site.

I spoke up last night because I ( sorry to keep using “I” but this is directed at me personally) believed it was prudent for me to share my thoughts with the voters. I could have remained silent and let this deal pass without saying a word. For some people this issue is unpopular. For others it’s very popular. Therefore as a councilmember with one vote, I am left to look at the information given to me and make the best decision possible. The decision to acquire the building was before my time. I have no say in that. It can remain empty (Not a good option. How can we expect to rid the area of crime without people coming to the area. Disagree with the “artsy” idea, it still brings people. I did not pick the kind of business. ), be demolished (which would require spending of public money) or repaired for someone to make productive use of. In this case, we have someone who is willing to move in and start a business quickly.  



Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 2:16pm
Josh, you should read a post above from me. Your theory that a business there reduces crime is not supported by any facts.

And why do you think because one building is vacant that it is something the city needs to worry about? There are vacant structures all over downtown. Your reasoning behind this doesn't even make sense. And didn't I just read that the city paid zero for the building?

If you are holding town hall meetings and the biggest topic is Section 8, then maybe that should be the city's focus. I'm trying to wrap my brain around why you and the others think you need to use tax dollars for an art center. Why do you think you have the right to waste tax dollars?

You just said regarding the "artsy" idea that "it brings people". Brings them to what? What are you basing this on? Middletown is not Cincinnati. What businesses will benefit from people coming to an artist studio downtown?

How many businesses have opened so far because of BeauVerre being downtown? Haven't they been down there for 10 years now? How much revenue has been generated by the city loaning (giving) BeauVerre upwards of $300,000? They were already located in Middletown, so what new income was generated by their move and the city's financial support of them?

Did you ask any of these questions?


Posted By: Observer
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 3:18pm

I think we’re being awful hard on Mr. Labuach.  We can disagree without being disagreeable. 

 

It seems to me that Josh has done quite a good job since being elected to council.  He’s been one of the driving forces on reducing section 8, held several community events, does a great job communicating  with citizens (including coming on this board) and seems to be a man of honesty and integrity.  People are undoubtedly going to disagree with their elected officials from time to time but if we’re agreeing with Josh on 90% of the things he’s doing we shouldn’t hammer him on the one issue we disagree with him on.  I think that turning to personal attacks probably does not help change Josh’s mind. 

 
This is a no win situation if he votes to allow this development people in town will be mad about the public funding involved….however if he votes no many will be upset that no new jobs or revenue are coming to town.  I don’t envy Josh’s position on this vote.  It is a tough one.


Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 3:34pm
Observer, This isn't a hard decision at all. When you are elected to be the stewards of the tax payer's money, there is no room for this type of fiasco. Who are these people that will be upset if it doesn't happen? How many? A whole dozen? I bet if a poll was taken asking the citizens of Middletown if they want their own personal tax dollars going to this it would be a 99% no and less than 1% yes.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 3:45pm
Fair enough Josh. I understand your response. Some comments.....

" I represent the voters" - Yes you do. Now that you realize that, how about showing us that you are willing to bring our wants, needs and wishes to the council table by engaging us in listening to what we have to say and repeating it at the council meetings.

" I have never received an E-Mail, phone call from you...." - No you haven't and I have been negligent about that. It's also a two way street. I look for my rep to solicit information from me by random phone calls, an occasional survey or any other means to "get the pulse" of what the people he represents are thinking on specific matters of the city.

"only eight people showed"- perhaps that should tell you that that is not the best way to encourage participation. The majority of people are just plain apathetic. Some work odd hours and can't attend and some want to attend but have other obligations (such as myself)

"Disagree with the "artsy" idea, it still brings people".- How do you know that? Beau Verre, an "artsy" store, hasn't exactly had the doors torn off the hinges with people flooding to get in the place, has it? What evidence do you have that the arts will attract a large group of people to the downtown area? It's gonna take alot more than that to bring people back downtown again.

"For some people, this issue is unpopular. For others it's very popular"- I would imagine, given the habits and practices of the people who live in Middletown, the MAJORITY of the residents don't care whether there is an arts district downtown or not. I also would imagine, again, given the demographics of the town's residents, that a very small percentage of the population find this idea appealing. This is a blue collar town Josh. It is not West Chester, Mason, Springboro, Indian Hill or Hyde Park. It is hardly a cultured town.

"be demolished, which would require spending the public money"- What?...What about spending the public's money on this loan to Verdin? Isn't that spending the public's money? What's the difference?

"In this case, we have someone who is willing to move in and start a business quickly"- Of course he is willing. He's having everything handed to him on a silver platter financially, with little to no risk to him. The taxpayer is taking the risk and you council people are suppose to be representing our best interests in this, but aren't. Question for you Josh. What happens after the city has sunk so much money into this venture and it doesn't pan out and Verdin leaves town? Is he out that much? No. Does the city coffers take a hit? Big time! Then what happens......you tell me. How many times does the city have to be financially gouged before the town leaders stop the money losing practices of loaning taxpayer money to fund what should be private money usage projects?


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 3:54pm
Observer- Josh's primary job is to represent the people who elected him. That means conveying their wants and needs to the council and working toward seeing that it gets done.

We can disagree without being disagreeable? What?

Yes, Josh has done a good job, but he has disappointed alot of the people who have supported him to date on this topic. He is wrong in his stance on this one. No public money to fund a private business venture. The taxpayer should never take the hit on a failed business, especially on a consistent basis, like we do in this town with these repetitice bad decision made by some of the city leaders.

New jobs? In an arts district? Would they be worth considering as viable income worthy of creating a decent lifestyle? Doubtful.

They are wrong and we're all telling them they are. Nothing wrong with that. 10/4?


Posted By: Storm Ahead
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 4:00pm
Tsk, tsk,tsk. Councilman, you have entered the lair of emotional wolves. Continue to read what they write, for they are oft-times accurate. Me thinks your responses would be wiser in emails or phone calls as you suggest.
 
I just wish we in this area, would start working up the food chain to Columbus, (where legislation could be passed forcing banks to mow lawns of foreclosed properties), and Washington D.C., (where true tax reform could become a reality and GATT and NAFTA should be revisited)
 
City Councils are big fish in small ponds.
 
While we are "nation building" in Iraq and Afghanistan, maybe we can dust of our Constitution and rebuild a better one here at home?


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Stormy


Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 4:09pm
I think Josh must be forgetting why so many voted for him. We were tired of this exact thing happening over and over and over. We thought we had someone that was not going to fall prey to these insane downtown fantasies.

Can anyone name at least own downtown property owner that has an impressive net worth? (besides Akers' stake in Manchester) My point is, this is what happens when you have a bunch of middle class wanna be somebody types. They never have the money to do anything on their own, so they try to raid tax dollars. It's disgusting.


Posted By: Observer
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 4:15pm

Vet,  what i mean by saying we can disagree with josh without being disagreeable is that even though most on this board may disagree with josh's vote and josh may disagree with their opinion, that we can have those disagreements respectfully and without having a personal falling out.  In essence you know josh's opinion and why he has that opinion and he knows yours.  It doesn't sound like either party is going to change their mind so we accept the vote and move forward.  Not saying you're being disagreeable, i was just making a general statement regarding the topic.

As to your point about Josh being the voice of the people and conveying their desires...obviously that is correct and you're welcome to, and I think, have an obligation to express your opinion to your elected officals.  However, i doubt anyone here has gone out and polled the 40-50k residents of Middletown on this project.  So i doubt any of us can claim with absolute certainty what the will of the people of the entire city is on this subject.
I personally have mixed emotions on this project and can see both sides of the coin here. 


Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 4:33pm
I was planning on staying out of this...but I just cant!! I do not think for one second that an art center will help downtown, but it sure as hell cant make it worse can it? I hear everyone saying no to an art center but any ideas about what should be done. Execpt the crime...Yes there is a ton of it downtown. It will be there no matter the business until cops in this town step up and take some serious action.
 
While I disagree with the art center idea and the using of tax money, I do agree that Mr. Laubach has had more than one meeting and we all had a chance to attend and speak up. I will also give credit where credit is due. He does show up here and answer some questions...no one else does, or at lest not often or more than once.
 
Lets hear some real ideas about downtown and what we should do?? and level all of it does not count!!


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Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357


Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by Rhodes Rhodes wrote:


Can anyone name at least own downtown property owner that has an impressive net worth? (besides Akers' stake in Manchester) My point is, this is what happens when you have a bunch of middle class wanna be somebody types. They never have the money to do anything on their own, so they try to raid tax dollars. It's disgusting.
 
Valens?   Thatcher (well his family)? 


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 6:16pm
OK Josh--what really sets me off here is that the rest of Council and YOU think so little of this city and our property assets, that you are falling all over yourselves to spend a half mill of taxpayer $$ to restore a prime property location, then GIVE IT AWAY to an out-of-town private enterpreneur(who has paid for his ventures elsewhere). You are pretty much saying that we and our assets are less than worthless, and we cannot rise from our malaise by ourselves. Your Council cronies and yourself are beingconvenient quitters imo, . No fight or toughness whatsoever. 
 
Why not restore the building to Pendleton specs, then LEASE it to them on-going for $1 oer annum, with continuation contingencies based on performance? If enough conditions and gain result over a 10-year period, THEN sell the building for $1.
 
I wouldn't expect our ED dept. to value this community as much as many posting here. They have no real tie to the area. They have taken the easy road with every project, selling us out and short to achieve their self-percieved "successes". 
 
So--this is FAR from a done deal.
Show your professed loved for our community and that particular area by standing up for our worth as people and local opportunity. If Pendleton REALLY wants to be here to make a positive, they will still play along. Then possibly we all can win. Our city WILL recover in some way at some time, and this location could well be very valuable. PLEASE don't throw it away like it/we are nothing.


Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 6:18pm
Just remember this. Miss Judy wants this, right? She has convinced all her little followers to support her. Lets not forget  het Boy Toy Sammy is an artist! She might be working towards another place for him to show off his art!! In my opinion everyone on City Council needs to go! Sorry Josh you ar disappointment1 jmo


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 8:05pm

Mr. Laubach:

As far as leaving buildings empty and subject to breeding crime, you are ignoring a big part of the equation and that is the anti-business attitude by certain factions at City Hall.

The reason, and the ONLY reason, that many businesses have been kept out of Middletown is that city hall has kept them out.

Case in point? Middletown Area Senior Citizens wanted to stay downtown and made a SIX FIGURE offer for the Swallen building. They wanted to have their activities on the main floor and seniors’ apartments on the upper floors. This would’ve meant residents and many visitors downtown. PERFECT! Just what the doctor ordered! City hall said “NO”!

Members of the “snob” clique downtown stop every attempt at non-snob commerce downtown. THAT is why the place remains a crime-ridden ghost town. Stop that and things will change. Squandering the public treasure on repeated attempts on re-packaged playgrounds for the chosen few will NOT change anything but will simply seal our fate.

Sir, you state that you “did not pick the kind of business” and that is true. But please look at who DID “pick the kind of business” and you will find that it is the same ones who have been “picking that kind of business” for years and that it is ALWAYS the SAME “kind of business” to the exclusion of all other kinds of business and it is the “kind of business” that has always failed in downtown Middletown, and THAT is the problem!

THAT is why no one will finance this “kind of business” with their own money here and that is why it is unconscionable to finance it upon the backs of the working poor and their children and grandchildren!

PLEASE, Sir, do the right thing, and lobby your fellow council members to do likewise. Not one of them would risk their own money on such a venture. How can they possibly, in good conscience, keep risking ours?

Then take POSITIVE action and rid City Hall of the anti-business cancer and begin to allow REAL investment by private businesses in our city!!!



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 8:23pm
Josh, what is irritating is that the opinions of those who WANT this are not based on data or facts but rather feelings (I love art, "Wouldn't it be nice to have...", etc.)
 
But those who DO NOT WANT this project are not opposed to art necessarily but see this as a dollars and cents issue, a common sense issue, and a project that has no reliable data to support it.


Posted By: TANGO
Date Posted: Aug 04 2010 at 8:43pm
Sounnds like to me middletown has a lot of people that seem to be able collect imformation on this subject, but not able find solutions. Not sold on this pac deal my self, but  looking back on past moves made by council, that seem to put the city in the position its  in ,with economy in shape its in this probley is not to far off .


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 05 2010 at 12:29am
With all due respect, Tango, there are businessmen and developers who have found solutions and have been willing to risk their own money to implement their visions, BUT (there's always a "but", isn't there?)...
 
...CITY HALL REFUSES TO ALLOW SUCH INVESTMENT, simply because it doesn't meet the HIDDEN AGENDA of artsy-fartsy, antique, craftsy, high-brow snobbery mandated by their behind-the-scenes "handlers" (MMF et al)!!!
 
CITY HALL does not care about providing good paying jobs for skill laborers or tradespeople, that may conflict with their desired "sophisticated" image.
 
If Kohler had his way (and he is well on his way) there would be NO SIGN of commerce or industry anywhere in this city unless it was pre-approved by his friends! What businessman wnats a business that no one can find???
 
For heaven's sake, some new businesses east of I-75 had to BEG for a temporary variance just to put up signs because job applicants could not find them when those businesses needed to hire people.  That is INSANE, yet our city leaders sat behind their curvy counter with their usual blank looks on their faces, asked no questions, and OK'ed whatever Kohler suggested!!!  This is madness!!!
 
 


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 06 2010 at 7:58pm
This issue does not have to be approved as it stands, and as an emergency at the next Council meeting.
It is honestly no emergency at all.
Hopefully Council will clear their heads, and take the time to understand that a much more productive arrangement can be made, particularly for their tax-paying constituents.
Maybe a few locals could find a better use for the property, and create more meaningful jobs for other locals.
Maybe stringent conditions could be put on the use ofthis free property, in order to satisfy/justify the cost of refurbishment.
Maybe Council should control the use of $250,000 in taxpayer funds as to how Pendleton(or whomever) desires to modify the structiure. Under the current legislation, couldn't Verdin/Pendleton use this $$ for their Admin salaries/expenses as they choose?
 
Look at the Beau Verre project.
Beautiful building--exceptional local business--hard-working local owners--but a taxpayer expense that has done little to spike any area recovery. The medicine shop/snack bar couldn't exist though constanly being re-invented. 56 Degrees was a wonderful place that didn't survive.
 
I love art.
This discussion is really not about "Art" or another effort to create an art district in the area.
Simply look at the Arts Central Foundation.
It is constantly on life support(I have and will support ACF), with really nothing having had any stay power so far.
You can only try something so many times before you have to accept the idea that what you "want" may not be what is needed or will work. Obviously the public response has been underwhelming.
 
I really have to ? any Councilmember who would approve this project as it is written at this time.


Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Aug 07 2010 at 11:01pm

I have been reading about this generous offer that our city leaders has decided (for us)to hand  over our tax money so a few of their croonies can dress up and sip wine and act like they are somebody. I just hope that they don't hit a pothole on their way to beautiful downtown Middletowm.

While I was cutting grass today I was thinking about all the conversations that I read last night on the board concerning this decision and it hit me like a ton of rocks that if the council people are so sure of this goldmine that they are so compelled to waste our money on this lark would they be willing to give up their salary they receive for being on council for just one year to show the citizens that they are completely behind this decision. They could reduce their total contribution from the taxpayer's fund and this would show everyone that we could really believe in their confidence in this endeavor.
It's real easy to gamble with other people's money but this way we could see what they are really made of.
Hey council members, are there any takers willing to spend your own dime on this great step forward for Middletown.


Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Aug 08 2010 at 8:44am
Excellent idea tomahawk35. Any council member that votes to approve this waste of tax dollars should be required to invest their council pay to the project.

I noticed Josh stopped responding to posts on here. I guess he thinks we are stupid and believe him when he says he doesn't check this message board.


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 08 2010 at 9:05am

Great idea, Tomahawk!!! Every council person who has enough confidence in this obvious scam to vote to throw hundreds of thousands of the taxpayers’ dollars down the sewer, should certainly be willing to kick in a few thousand of their own.

They can have their money back after 5 or 6 new restaurants “pop up” (and STAY "popped up" for at least five years) just like they did after Beau Verre sucked up so many hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars so many years ago. Didn’t we hear all of these same predictions of upcoming glory due to art for downtown development back then???

Of course that was a different council and we shouldn’t “look back” now, should we??? Of course not!!! If we “look back” we might learn something, mightn’t we???

NO, rather than “look back” and learn from our errors, “this council” intends to muddle forward and make the exact same dad-gummed mistake that prior councils have made, and WASTE OUR MONEY. “THIS council” would rather inhibit free trade by subsidizing this one, single "packager", thereby FOREVER guaranteeing him a MONOPOLY on art studios, coffee shops, and framing stores within MILES of downtown Middletown!!! This will likely cause HIGHER prices, FEWER “artists”, LESS overall commerce downtown, and concurrently INCREASE poverty, crime, and hasten the decline and the ENTIRE city!!

Good job, city hall!!!



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 08 2010 at 9:14am
Oops, wait, I got confused!!!  The last time at least three restaurants DID "pop up", but I don't recall more than two at a time nor do I think any of them lasted more than a year or two. did they???
 
What DID we get for the hundreds of thousands that we "invested" in Beau Verre???
 


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 08 2010 at 10:17am
IMO--it is the "part-time" Council thing that hurts us. These officials aren't compensated enough to allow the position/issues their proper attention/study. Still--our govt. is set up with a "strong" city manager, who is guided by our Council's intent--who should be guided by the citizens' intent. Council is to guide the city manager/admin in the direction preferred by the citizens for the good of the entire community.
 
Since our city govt./Council/Admin is not really receptive to public opinion, it might be time for the large task of re-structuring just how the municipal branch is to function.
 
As a whole, the "Arts" concept has been worked very hard down there already.
Throwing more taxpayer $$ at the same concept is ludicrous.
 
These properties should have been marketed to proven successful LOCAL businesses for a WIDE variety of shopping/service optons. Performance contingencies, while non-existent so far(a HUGE MISTAKE) should be mandatory,strictly monitored in order to recieve any funding.
 
With these p[owerful 80 "stakeholders" and big-name/$$ organizations in the mix, city funding should actually be little and specialized towards those that need it most and offer the greatest possible economic improvements.
 
As often with govt., there might be far too few successful business owners involved, and far too many municipal/public sector bureaucrats with little private business experience. Eliminate the big govt./big brother process from economic development. Seldom does it work.
 


Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Aug 08 2010 at 11:50am
If they want to spend tax dollars so bad, why don't they try to revive some Middletown staples, like Capozzi's or get Central Pastry to move to the building. Something that will really bring traffic down there. These art lovers do not have any real net worth to be buying valuable "works of art", like someone else said, they're just wanting to throw little wine tasting parties so they can act important. 20 years from now, 99% of any art that could come from that PAC place will be at garage sales for $1.


Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Aug 08 2010 at 8:01pm
While I have aurgued with many on this board over time on different issues it was mostly for fun. What is being discussed here are serious issues and I could not agree more  with Spider. I have a vested interest in this community, a home owner, manager of a bog box, and haviing a student that is a senior this year at MHS, and a spouse employed by the schools. She takes pride in her sucesses and works hard to motivate others to do the same.
I do believe that is time that we all unite and we all show up at a council meeting and demand time to speak or demand their resignations. This city will not survive another year of this crap.
 
Spider you can count on me,,call me or email me and lets get a group together and approch council with othe real demand os the community. I am a realist and know that you cannot relive the past, but there is no reason we cannot rise out of the septic tank and be an All American City again.
 
I'm willing, how about the rest of you?


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 08 2010 at 8:33pm
Gee, I am shy Embarrassed ...and usually reluctant to get involved in community affairs or to state my opinions publicly Stern%20Smile ... but let me check my calender, and I'll consider it.

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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Aug 08 2010 at 9:15pm
Mike, I don't think shy is in your vocabulary!!! LOL


Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Aug 08 2010 at 10:53pm
Count me in


Posted By: plum8up
Date Posted: Aug 08 2010 at 11:08pm
as a middletown taxpayer im also not thrilled about more tax dollers being spent downtown.but you have to start somewhere and i like the way the city has been tearing down junk propertys.i think for the first time in a long time downtown is on the way up.i really like what larry lewis has done with that corner high rise.and broad street bash has shown people will go downtown for the right reasons.i also know laubach and marconi personally and laubach has only the best interests of middletown at heart and has tried to overcome alot of terrible desicions made by the last council.would you really rather have marconi back? i mean at least laubach is a straight shooter.


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 09 2010 at 3:13am

Plum: I trust that you raise what you believe to be legitimate points. I think that you, along with the rest of us (and, indeed, all citizens) deserve any concerns to be addressed in a straightforward manner by the city. However, I doubt that anyone’s concerns will be addressed by anyone from city hall. Please allow me to address your comments/concerns as straightforwardly as I can:

You say:

“as a middletown taxpayer im also not thrilled about more tax dollers being spent downtown.but you have to start somewhere and i like the way the city has been tearing down junk propertys.”

Some would agree with this, some would disagree. I do know for a fact that there were offers of hundreds of thousands of dollars made for some of the properties downtown that have been razed. These offers were summarily rejected by city officials because the uses (such as apartments for senior citizens and an enhanced Seniors’ Center) did not “meet certain city officials liking”. Both downtown and throughout the city, certain city officials have their minds made up what they want, without regard for the commercial realities of the twenty-first century world. At this point, I am almost ready to agree that to bulldoze the entire area formerly known as “downtown”, including city hall, might be the best thing for the entire city.

You continue:

“i think for the first time in a long time downtown is on the way up.“

I would agree with you, but only if city hall would open the entire area up for free market, commercial development. The problem is, city hall will not keep their biased noses out of it and continue to insist on following a taxpayer-subsidized, failed model that most likely ensures failure and at best guarantees limited success for a single, subsidized business with which no other private businesses will be able to compete.

You continue:

“i really like what larry lewis has done with that corner high rise.”

I am unsure which high rise you mean. I searched the records of the Butler County Auditor and found over 50 properties owned by “Lewis Consolidated”, including 1108, 1120, 1119 and 1123 Central Avenue. It does appear from the street that some remodeling has gone on (besides the taxpayer subsidized facades) to the buildings on the south side of the street, but I have no other knowledge of these properties, or their proposed uses, so I cannot comment further.  Perhaps you could enlighten us???

You continue:

“and broad street bash has shown people will go downtown for the right reasons.”

Yes, I agree!!! You are correct, which means that city hall is once again WRONG!!! Perhaps you will recall that “The Bash” was NOT a brainstorm of city hall but was the idea and work product of the PRIVATE SECTOR, with very little assistance from city hall and NO TAXPAYER SUBSIDY!!! I think that you also seem to emphasize the point that many here have been making. The THOUSANDS of people in the crowds at the Broad Street Bashes are NOT the same people that you would see at any local art exhibit, are they? Do you EVER expect a local art exhibit to attract a crowd in the THOUSANDS that will purchase over THREE THOUSAND bottles of beer, or spend over TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS total (overall) in just a few hours on ANYTHING???

The last art auction that I recall in Middletown was at MUM during their 40th anniversary gala. I’d estimate that the attendance was WAY less than a thousand, that the actual number of bidders was less than one hundred. (NOTE 1: Most of the tuxedoed and gowned attendees were crowded around the FREE “champagne and shrimp” during the actual auction.) (NOTE 2: For those of you who think that I am an “art-hating cheapskate”, please be informed that I was the successful bidder on a teapot by a local artisan at this affair, AND I swilled NONE of the free booze.) Anyway, the point is, compare the crowds at The Bash to the crowds drawn by ANY local “arts” affair and then examine your statement again: “and Broad Street Bash has shown people will go downtown for the right reasons.” Unfortunately, the Pendleton Arts Center (PAC) is NOT The Broad Street Bash, and The Bash doesn’t even need a HALF MILLION DOLLAR TAX PAYER SUBSIDY!!!   The PAC is NOT the "right reason!!!"

Next, you state:

“i also know laubach and marconi personally and laubach has only the best interests of middletown at heart…”

That is what I thought about Mr. Laubach up until now, but I believe that he is making a grave mistake on this one! Also, having the city’s best interest at heart does NOT mean that he is always correct.

You continue:

“…and [Laubach] has tried to overcome alot of terrible desicions made by the last council.

That may be what you think, but Mr. Laubach has repeated stated that “there is no use in looking back at what past councils have done.”  In this case, if Mr. Laubach would “look back“, he would be able to clearly see that he is about to repeat the same mistake that past council persons, including Mr. Marconi, have made! Beau Verre was heavily subsidized by the tapayers, just as PAC is about to be. What has been the return to the taxpayers? All of the arts, and all of the history projects, and all of the Olde Tyme shenanigans and all of the “Main Street stakesholders” cr*p have ALL been heavily subsidized by the taxpayers over and over and over, and always with no return. Any one who tries to state differently should be asked WHY we still have any empty downtown EXCEPT on the few nights every summer for The Bash!!! Can YOU, Plum, tell us why???

In closing, you state:

“would you really rather have marconi back? i mean at least laubach is a straight shooter”

NO! And this has nothing to do with Marconi, except that if Laubach would look back, he would see that this is one of the things that he would’ve said Marconi was doing WRONG! Laubach seems to have been straight shooter--so far. But this time he is clearly wrong!!! Laubach has even invoked the spirit of Adam Smith, an economist who would ABHOR a move such as the proposed taxpayer-subsidized PAC monopoly. Laubach needs to re-read Adam Smith, re-think his position, seek advice OUTside city hall, lobby his colleagues and DEFEAT THIS DOWNTOWN-KILLING proposition!!!

And Plum, if you calmly study the facts, you will agree. Re-read you own statements. The answer lies right within them!!!



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Kelly
Date Posted: Aug 09 2010 at 6:51pm

Methinks BeauVerre is reading MUSA.....from Facebook...


http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1226714548">
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1226714548 - BeauVerre Riordan Please show your support for the Pendleton Art Center locating in Downtown Middletown at 7 North Broad St. Contact your Council person and let them know what a great thing this will be to continue with the rehabilitation of the core of the Downtown. If you are looking for a gallery space we are accepting names to refer to the PAC owner Mr Verdin. Space is limited apply early. They plan to be open by Thanksgiving...


Posted By: TANGO
Date Posted: Aug 09 2010 at 8:41pm
Well mike their is no way to say who is right in this case , the future will telland just maybe you are not privy to all the future plans of the city I hope. I have faith in LAUBACH  I have spoke with Laubach a several times and he is very bright and does his homework. I am just glad to see council is not expanding section 8 again like the past did.


Posted By: Richard Saunders
Date Posted: Aug 10 2010 at 10:28am
Mr. Tango:
Do you not read your own writings, sir?
As Mr. Presta pointed out, you wrote: "broad street bash has shown people will go downtown for the right reasons.”
Compared to the crowds attracted by events sponsored by Middletown Arts Central, the crowds at Broad Street Bash are relatively speaking, quite large.  The events to be held at the Pendleton will be much like those held at MAC, and nothing like the events at the Broad Street Bash.
 
Yet, in your most recent post, you state "their is no way to say who is right in this case."
 
Sir, you had already answered this question.  "broad street bash has shown people will go downtown for the right reasons.”  It is apparent that the arts are not "the right reasons."
 
The People have spoken.  It is illogical and immoral to defy the will of The People.
 
Also, the government should not be concocting future plans in the privy.  Such plans tend to be odiferous.


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 10 2010 at 10:37am
wow--big words  being tossed around.
 
Seems Council is measuring input recieved on this issue.
So--if you have a strong feeling either way, you should voice those thoughts to Councilmembers by what'ever means possible.
Cou;d well make the difference.


Posted By: Nelson Self
Date Posted: Aug 10 2010 at 11:30am
Mr. Laubach -
 
As one of your Ward 3 constituents, please consider the following:
 
1)  require that the City of Middletown publish a Request for Proposals/Qualifications for the utilization of up to $500,000 in available funds for bonafide downtown redevelopment proposals; and,
2)  provide a listing of vacant, City-owned land in the downtown core that's available for quality reuse as well.
 
Such a RFP/Q process MUST INCLUDE current owners of downtown real estate as well as proven LOCAL ENTREPRENEURS seeking to expand current business operations.
 
Wouldn't this approach generate a number of worthwhile proposals to consider?  Isn't that a wothwhile stategy for the City in utilizing limited funding and vacant land in the downtown core?  Wouldn't it also produce an open, transparent process instead of the usual private negotiating methods?
 
Nelson Self


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 11 2010 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by Kelly Kelly wrote:


Contact your Council person and let them know what a great thing this will be to continue with the rehabilitation of the core of the Downtown.
Can anyone explain to us EXACTLY why this will be "a great thing" using actual facts and figures? Can anyone explain why it will be "a great thing" using ANYTHING other than wishes and dreams?

For that matter, can anyone explain why BeauVerre was "a great thing" for Middletown??? Or why they were worth the hundreds of thousands of tapayers' dollars that were "invested"??  Can anyone tell us what we got in return for our money???

Perhaps Council should ask these questions BEFORE they vote next Tuesday???


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: plum8up
Date Posted: Aug 11 2010 at 10:51pm
Mike I don't know you but, I have to admit I feel like I've been chewed on by a pit bull. My take simply put their were members of past councils who I've felt were not above voting on projects that could help themselves politically and finacially. Josh is to honest to do either of those and politically in the long run it will hurt him. So it bothers me the way you guys are beating him up on this one issue when he takes it personally [I mean hes posting rebuttals] when I feel he brings a lot of positives to council.


Posted By: plum8up
Date Posted: Aug 11 2010 at 11:24pm
With the exception of the swallens building i have yet to see anything worth buying that has been torn down.To purchace a building is one thing to renovate and maintain is somthing else.After this real estate collaspe no bank would consider loaning money for an old downtown commercial building period. Who besides perry would even think about buying downtown.Who has that kind of pocket change?So we can tear it down,sell it for pennies to someone who probably cant afford to do anything but let it deteriorate,or take a chance on someone with a track record of success but to get him is gonna take a sweatheart deal.I would take the chance but hey im a moron {see origional post and being torn to schreads by Mr.presta}


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 5:10am

Mr. Plum:

If you feel that I am being too hard on either you or Mr. Laubach, I am sorry that you feel that way. However, I cannot apologize for my remarks.

If you have closely followed these message boards, you might’ve noticed that I have tried to back Mr. Laubach as he stood against superior numbers on council.

However, there were some actions by Mr. Laubach that demand that he be held accountable!!

First, it was he who introduced the spirit of Adam Smith into the conversation, which indicated that he (Mr. Laubach) knows better than to vote for such a preposterous proposition, yet he intends to do so anyway!!! This is unconscionable.

Second, he has repeatedly stated that he will not “look back”, yet to look “look back” is a simple exercise that can be a lesson as to why a proposition such as this PAC is a mistake: it has been tried before right here in Middletown, with the same arguments being used on behalf of BeauVerre and resulting in no benefits to the taxpayers. This is a simple, clear and relevant lesson that can be learned if Mr. Laubach, a history teacher, would just look at Middletown’s recent history. Mr. Laubach, and “THIS council” is on the verge of repeating a mistake of “past councils”!! A simple “look back” will prevent this, yet he refuses to take this look. It is not a matter of assigning blame to past councils. It is a matter of learning from history to avoid repeating mistakes!!!

Third, it is simply poor business judgment, and a violation of the vow taken by all public servants, to allow public funds to be squandered on project with such a poor likelihood of success and with what appears to be no real business plan nor solid economic analysis.

Simply stated, just because we find ourselves in a hole does NOT dictate that we keep digging. Yet that is what you seem to indicate that we do by subsidizing Mr. Verdin with this sweetheart deal. Just because we have wasted tens of millions of dollars on failed similar plans downtown, wasting another million or so makes no sense. Why not try actual business instead of the repeatedly failed OldeTyme, arts, crafts, antiques, Main Street Plans that have failed over and over and over?  Mr. Plum, our city staff will not even allow anyone to attempt a real business downtown using their own funds.  They refuse all but the "Main street Plan"-type subsidized non-productive enterpises with "snob appeal" that have failed over and over.

Sorry, Mr. Plum, but we must purge city hall of all of the anti-business types, including all senior staff in favor of this project and all council members who vote for it. It will be nothing but another nail in the coffin of not only downtown, but also all of our city!

PS:  Mr. Plum: Any idea what the attendance has been to date at the "143rd American Watercolor Society Exhibition"???  It is supposed to be a draw from the ENTIRE MID-WEST section of America!!!  It has been going on since (I believe) the last Friday in July and continues through this weekend at Middletown Arts Central.  Yet, I'd wager that for the entire run to date, they did not outdraw even ONE Broad Street Bash!!!  So where are all of these "patrons of the arts", Mr. Plum???  If they didn't show up for this national, once a year event, how can we honestly expect them to show every month for 20 local artist here in Middletown???  Sorry, but it just doesn't make sense!!!  It would make more sense to provide seed money to "The Bash".


-------------
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 5:19am
By the way, Mr. Plum, THAN YOU!!! Embarrassed
 
I am honored!!!  I have never before been call "A PIT BULL" for the tax payers!!! Big%20smile


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 6:27am
Hey Mike! I thought the pit bull around here was Joe Dieters, the Hamilton County Prosecutor.???? WLW always refers to him as that when Cunningham (who I hate, by the way) has him on.


Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 10:20am
Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

[QUOTE=Kelly]
For that matter, can anyone explain why BeauVerre was "a great thing" for Middletown??? Or why they were worth the hundreds of thousands of tapayers' dollars that were "invested"??  Can anyone tell us what we got in return for our money??

The seems to be a little confusion on the whole Beau Verre Riordan deal and the nature of their business.

Beau Verre Riordan is not someone’s hobby.  Nor is it some sort of downtown experiment by the city.  It’s a business.  A business that chose to be in the downtown area.  While it may have started as a hobby for Jay and Linda Moorman, it’s now their livelihood.  And while it may offer opportunities for others to further their stained glass hobby or interest, BVR has paying customers who purchase a product.   In order to produce this product, BVR must HIRE and PAY skilled professionals an income.  Income that is taxable by the city of Middletown.

Here’s some history on the BVR

BV was located on the east-side of Middletown for many years in the KittyHawk area.  It was started and continues to be owned by Middletonians.

BV purchased Riordan Studios out of Cincinnati.  Riordan was the oldest operating stained glass studio in the United States.  With this purchase, BVR outgrew their existing location and needed to expand operations.

Like any business, BVR considered expansion options, including a new building on the east end of Middletown.

But Jay and Linda had a vision for a renovated building in Middletown’s downtown that could lead to the eventual spark in redevelopment.  And they worked with the city on a deal that would allow them to do so.

The city of Middletown owned a building in the former mall area at Central and Broad that many people will recall as the John Ross Store and later G.C. Murphy’s.  I don’t’ know at what point the city acquired the property or how much they paid for it.  It could have been part of the mall’s original construction.

During the planning process for the downtown mall’s removal, there was debate on whether or not to demolish this building due to the fact the storefront’s replacement cost was more than the building’s value, and the city didn’t have to acquire the property.  The decision was made, I believe, not to demolish because the corner was deemed crucial to downtown Middletown’s redevelopment.  A hurdle to the property’s redevelopment was the amount of asbestos.

BVR’s worked out a deal with the city consisted of the following:

-          BVR purchased the building for $1

-          BVR agreed to spend $30,000 on trim around the top of the building that needs substantial repair work. Anything above that was to be paid for by the city in a $30,000 grant.

-          The city of Middletown provided BVR with an 15-year interest-free loan with no payments for the first five years

-          The amount of the loan was $300,000 with $10,000 job credits off the principal of that loan for every job that adds at least $20,000 to the company's payroll.

-          BVR had hoped, as part of this expansion, to create 30 new jobs 

This was not some sort of free-be handout.  BVR will celebrate 5 years at their downtown location this fall/winter, so repayment of the loan should begin shortly, the amount depending on the number of jobs created.  Even if the loan is forgiven based on JOB CREATION, I can tell you the Jay and Linda’s personal investment in the building far exceeds the original loan amount—and may be up to twice the amount of the loan.

 Here’s an old article from The Enquirer that discusses the deal:

  http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/10/23/loc_middowntown23.html - http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/10/23/loc_middowntown23.html

You can be sure had Jay and Linda decided to expand BVR on the east-end, they surely would have sought tax incentives for that location as well.  I wonder if there would be as much criticism if this is the route they had chosen. 



Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 1:37pm
Just for clarity, swohio, you mentioned that the city owned A building in the mall that people will recall as the John Ross Store and later G.C. Murphy. To clarify, these two stores were totally different buildings- Murphys, where Beau Verre is now and John Ross on the opposite corner of Central and Broad. John Ross was never the G.C Murphy store nor in reverse order.

Wasn't this loan to Beau Verre predicated on creating a certain number of jobs in a given period of time. Could be wrong here, don't remember.

Where did the city loan money to Beau Verre come from? City tax payers perhaps? And if it came from city taxpayers, doesn't the city have an obligation to lessen the risk of investment on behalf of said taxpayer? And who gave the city permission to dispense with the 15 year loan with no payments for 5 years thing you mentioned? Seems awfully loose with the people's money, don't you think?


Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 1:46pm

The John Ross store was located in the Beau Verre location many years before it moved to northeast corner of Central and Broad:

http://www.middletownlibrary.org:8080/cgi-bin/viewer.exe%20CISOROOT=/Crout&CISOPTR=5713&CISOMODE=grid - http://www.middletownlibrary.org:8080/cgi-bin/viewer.exe CISOROOT=/Crout&CISOPTR=5713&CISOMODE=grid
 
When they moved, Murphy's expanded their operations in the old John Ross building:
 
http://www.middletownlibrary.org:8080/cgi-bin/viewer.exe?CISOROOT=/Crout&CISOPTR=773 - http://www.middletownlibrary.org:8080/cgi-bin/viewer.exe?CISOROOT=/Crout&CISOPTR=773
 


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 1:49pm
Before the mall was even thought of, the G.C.Murphy store was where Beau Verre is now and was the main bus stop downtown. The John Ross store was located on the opposite corner. This was during the 50's/60's.

If this situation you are talking about was before the 50's, then it was probably so.


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 1:52pm
swohio75, I don't want to pick on BV or have anything against them.  But the point most of us are making is that the city should not be in the business of giving out large sums of money for new businesses, regardless of how much $$ the owner is putting in themselves.  What makes PAC worse than BV is that it sounds like the owner is putting in a minimal amount of their own money, if any, which is unlike the BV story you just mentioned.


Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 1:56pm

Wasn't this loan to Beau Verre predicated on creating a certain number of jobs in a given period of time. Could be wrong here, don't remember.

BVR needs to repay the loan after 5 years.  The principal of the loan can be reduced by $10,000 for every employee added to their payroll.    BVR had anticipated creating 30 new jobs.  Not sure where they stand.

The loan was provided to help an existing business expand their operations as a result of an acquisition.  BVR could have easily relocated to downtown Lebanon or another community.

Where did the city loan money to Beau Verre come from? City tax payers perhaps? And if it came from city taxpayers, doesn't the city have an obligation to lessen the risk of investment on behalf of said taxpayer? And who gave the city permission to dispense with the 15 year loan with no payments for 5 years thing you mentioned? Just curious.

The money used came from a grant from the federal government in the 1970s-- Urban Development Action Grant

City Council at the time approved this transaction. 



Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 2:02pm

Bill – BVR was not a new business.  It was an existing, successful Middletown business.  The city was working to retain this business. 



Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 2:46pm
They weren't working to retain BVR. BVR wasn't leaving Middletown. It was an experiment at the tax payer's expense to see if business could be generated in the "new downtown". So far, it hasn't worked. It takes more than a glass shop to get a downtown rolling.


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 4:28pm
Beau Verre is a quality business, owned by hard-working local business people. They would be successful wherever they were located. Even though the city(taxpayer money) bent over backwards to make them the centerpiece in a downtown gamble. A risky offer for both, but almost too good to refuse. Beau Verre  has created a true showplace, and success story.
 
Did this pan out as hoped?
Yes and no.
"Arts" in general, has not caught on in the area, despite many efforts and grant $$ from many sources being thrown their way. Should we try it again, much more heavily taxpayer-subsidized? In the current financial/economic/demographic circumtances, it really doesn't make sense.
 
The area is overwhelmingly low income, and not even as diverse as Over The Rhine(which had considerable private entertainment ventures springing up). Family Services, Hope House, govt.assistance centers, food pantries, missions and self-help centers dominate the area.
 
Since our city admin is 100% responsible for the Section 8 over-population and the strong Section 8 concentration in that and immediately surrounding areas, they are seriously contradicting themselves by trying to now quickly shift the area(by force) to the upscale arts district again. This is exactly where our Council is supposed to step in and say "Wait a minute--What are we really doing here? Why are we spending huge tax $$ to repair building to be turned over to non-local businesses, with no productive ontingencies or performance requirements? Are our citizens as a whole getting their money's worth?"
 
Obviously Beau Verre is approaching crunch time, allegedly due to start making loan repayments and tax obligations. Another non-competing art center(much more heavily taxpayer subsidized) would be good for them. Can't fault them for strongly supporting this expensive but risky proposal.
 
Still--hard to imagine a mass shopping exodus or business development spurt in that area. "Starving artists" will hardly be manning the facility every day. They simply don't work that way. They might be attracted to the hookers,drugs and seedy bars though. No one is going to fight the brutal I-75 mess to come to that area to do what they could do within their home space. They MIGHT show up one day a month to hawk their wares b4 bugging out back home. Still--who will travel there to BUY essentially what is offered in more convenient and attractive areas?
 
I know that I am sounding maybe too negative, however there are WAY too many parts of this puzzle that really don't fit well. And our Council is expected to emergency this in next Tuesday. Maybe time to "Just Say No" for now, until everything can be discussed and a much more favorable option can be created for local taxpayers. What is the rush? If Pendleton really wants to be here, they should understand and be willing to seriously increase their stake in the project. If not--I'm sure that someone better will be found.
 
And I am with Vet--I always remember GC Murphy Co. being on one corner, and Ross's on the other.


Posted By: 409
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 5:47pm
Spider.....I remember it as you & vette do.........however
Here is a shot of BeauVerre from another angle.


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 5:58pm

Thank you to SWOhio for proving my point, and to Spider for re-stating my case so eloquently!!!

First, let me agree that I have nothing against the Moormans. I’m sure that they are fine folks.

The point is, a past council made a $300,000 interest-free, forgivable loan of the taxpayers’ money and gave them a building with the anticipation that their “artsy” business would spur economic growth downtown. It has not done so!!!

Now, five years later, another council is on the verge of doing a very similar thing, again with taxpayers’ money, on even worse terms for the taxpayer, for the same reasons, with even less chance for a favorable outcome for the taxpayers, and no one is willing to look back at this deal!

Beau Verre has been a success, but it has been successful for no one but the Moormans. And that is fine as long as they live up to all of the terms of the agreement and are good corporate citizens, but it has NOT spurred economic development in the area. In that regard, the experiment using the taxpayers’ funds has been proven to be ill-conceived!!! Which part of this picture is so difficult to understand??? Why should we expect a different result if we try the same experiment over again (with even worse terms for the taxpayers)???

Would Robinette or Kohler or Gilleland or Landen or any member of city council, using their own money, make a $200,000 loan to Verdin having only the Ross building as collateral??? NO!! So how, in good conscience, can they make a 100 times worse loan using the people’s money???

And all of those mentioned have taken an oath that they are violating in either recommending or allowing this to proceed!!!


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 7:15pm

wow 409--that settles it.

good info as usual, SWOhio
fortunately I am not old enough to remenber that. What about you, SWO?


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 8:21pm
I sure don't remember that, and I remember Noah saying that it looked like rain!!!
 
Maybe John Rossi was the original owner and it was called the John RossI building??? LOL LOL LOL


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 8:33pm
Thanks SW Ohio for the info. Just goes to show, you learn something new everyday no matter how long you've been around. Nice job on the research and the picture 409.


Posted By: 409
Date Posted: Aug 12 2010 at 10:34pm
Vet....Just happened to spot that from the top of the parking garage when I was taking pix of the Sorg demo & others before the garage demo began. I had no clue before this that the John Ross Store had been in this location. I was going to bring it up a few months ago and forgot about the pix. These posts just happened to jog my feeble mind!


Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Aug 14 2010 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

But, according to Law Director Landen (a member of the local illuminati)


That's got to be Middletown USA quote of the year!

LOL
LOL


Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Aug 14 2010 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Jlaubach Jlaubach wrote:

MUSA,

I made last night’s comments for a reason. Given the situation, I feel it’s the best option to support this project do to the success of other Pendelton projects in other areas similiar to our downtown. We desperately need a presence of business and activity downtown. I believe without positive activity the downtown will further decline and attract more criminal activity. This situation is not desirable for Middletown and it cannot be left as is if there is any desire to stabilize and revive our city. I meant what I said and it’s my displeasure to hear the grief it may have caused some. As I stated last night, I have been conflicted about the project simply for the fact that it involves the spending of public money. However, I am no more pleased to have a piece of property sitting on the city's hands which sits vacant (which was purchased before my time). The Over-the-Rhine project is very impressive. In addition, the owner has also purchased historic property in vicinity of the center (A 19th century church to name one) and turned them into very successful ventures in previously abandoned areas. Indications are the same will be done here.

I am sorry to hear the loss of support from some of you. I live my life to try and do what I feel is the best and most principled thing. You can’t be all things to all people all the time. Sometimes no matter what you do half of the folks are going to love it and half are going to hate it. However, that is beside the point. I have to do what I think is best given the situation and circumstances given to me. If it were up to me, many things in government would be very different. I believe in the economic and governing principles laid out by Thomas Jefferson, Adam Smith and John Locke.  But I can only control so much with one vote on Middletown City Council. I must accept the constraints and conditions of previous council decisions, state and federal law and other matters that create the world we live in 2010. I would hope that folks on this site are intellectually honest enough to see that I am a puppet for no one, not on this site, not in the city building and not in the “heavy hitter” class. I cannot nor have I ever proclaimed to do things to make everybody happy. Again, if my words caused a loss of support, I am disheartened by that. However, I must act on what I feel is best for Middletown.

Sincerely,

Josh Laubach



Many of us are still behind you one hundred percent Mr. Laubach! 


Posted By: Dooraghero
Date Posted: Aug 14 2010 at 3:32pm
It seems as if the City Council has been beset by the madness initiated at the federal level.  By throwing other people's money at a problem and subsidizing projects they expect a renaissance in downtown Middletown?   The trouble with subsidies and utilizing money derived from an increasingly small tax base is that it will eventually run out.  Very few, if any, subsidized projects at any level of government become profitable.  The madness of this downtown "arts project" is that it flies in the face of critical priorities during these tough economic times.  Obviously, safety and security are job number one for any government.   Then again, Middletown City government seems to have bought into the fallacy that government must be involved in as many things as possible since the hapless peasants are unable to function without the direction, indeed, control of the authorities.   Facilitated by an influx of federal and state grants and loans, the Middletown City Council seems to be charting a course of debt rather than solvency for our fair city.   Council members would be wise to heed the words of Thomas Jefferson:
 
A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicity.
 
It is indeed a great disappointment that the two newest members of Council, Mr. Smith and Mr. Laubauch have been assimilated into the mad spending club that has ruled Middletown City Hall for years.  Initially, these young Council members looked as if they would indeed vote with their consciences and resist pressure from the city elites.  Sadly, it seems as if they have been broken and domesticated like wild ponies. 
 
It is especially disappointing to see that Mr. Laubauch, who presented himself as a fiscal conservative, a liberty-minded individual, and a patriot concerned with future generations has chosen to put his blinders on and follow in behind his masters, responding to every tug on the reins with the expected responses.  The bright lights that were the candles of positive change on City Council have been snuffed; nothing left save whisps of potential fading like smoke into the bland ephemera of Council Chambers.


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Would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance,just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives but they'll never take our FREEDOM


Posted By: Jlaubach
Date Posted: Aug 15 2010 at 8:31pm

Doorag, I am not standing behind anyone other than my name which is clearly posted here. I spoke my mind to let my fellow citizens know where I stand. I would ask that you refrain from questioning my commitment to something so great as liberty based on one localized issue.  If you or others are committed to the cause of freedom, please run for a seat next year.  You and everyone else on this site is free to do as I did and run for a position so as to have the chance to give to something greater than one’s self. 

 Mr. Presta, I have read WEALTH OF NATIONS and do not feel the need to re-read it. You have put out a great deal of writing on this matter. However, neither you nor anyone else on this board has taken the time to contact me with concerns about this issue.  If you have genuine concerns, please contact via my city email or call the city building and I will get back with you. Folks can write all day long from the comfort of their homes about what they would do. I am not in that position. I must take all the facts and make the decision that I believe is best based on the conditions in front of me.  Anyone reading this post is encouraged to contact me or another council member if you want to speak about this or future matters. As stated before, I do not read this board every day. If you have a concern or idea, please use one of the many channels to contact me.

Thanks,

Josh Laubach



Posted By: angelababy
Date Posted: Aug 15 2010 at 9:55pm
here we are, less than two weeks from implementing this deal and with much work already having been done, and with all of the boosters singing praises and seeming so certain what a great deal this is for our city,  would never have supported the incumbant Marconi.  must say, that with this decision, I am now regretting my support for you.

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Welcome to my paintings website - http://www.wholesaleartmall.com - Wholesale Art Mall .   


Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 3:16am
Is it just me or does each post by Josh Laubach get more and more disgusting? Who the hell does he think he is? He will never get another vote from me.

And quit lying Josh, we know you don't just stroll along this board once in a while. Get real. Nobody needs to contact you directly in order for you to know the will of the people. You're just using a BS excuse because you don't have the balls to say NO to Judy & Sam!


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 4:56am
Dear regular Forum readers:
Having been properly chastised by Mr. Laubach, instead of my usual commentary upon "the workbook", I am posting an exact copy of the email that I sent to the official email address of each and every City Council member, as listed on the City website ( mailto:larrym@cityofmiddletown.org,%20asjones@cityofmiddletown.org,%20tomallen@cityofmiddletown.org - larrym@cityofmiddletown.org, asjones@cityofmiddletown.org, tomallen@cityofmiddletown.org , mailto:asmith@cityofmiddletown.org - asmith@cityofmiddletown.org , mailto:joshual@cityofmiddletown.org - joshual@cityofmiddletown.org , mailto:danp@cityofmiddletown.org - danp@cityofmiddletown.org , mailto:billb@cityofmiddletown.org - billb@cityofmiddletown.org ) :
 
Lady and Gentlemen of Council:

As most of you are aware, when I have the time, I go through the workbook prior to each city council meeting and post my thoughts about various items on the MiddletownUSA.com Forum for anyone who is interested to read before the council meeting.  As most of you are further aware,
I always post under my own name (Mike_Presta) to avoid the criticism that "internet crazies will say anything posting under the anonymity of an alias".  

I was not aware until a couple of hours ago that no comments would be considered by some council members unless an email message or telephone message was left at City Hall,  Hence this email.

My thoughts on one of the most important items to be decided this week, the proposed Pendleton Art Center give-away, are voluninous.  I will try to conolidate them from the nearly two weeks of posts, and send an additional email.  If I fail to get that accomplished, please be assured of my strongest opposition.

One must wonder about all of the boards and commissions and committees and blue ribbon panels and the like that our fair city likes to appoint to study things to death and to “plan” and re-plan. Then we just seem to ignore, or just do the opposite. Or do we just pick and chose and just “use” the findings to bolster whatever our so-called “movers and shakers” want to do in the first place???

Cases in point:

From the minutes of the July 15 “Master Plan Steering Committee“ (included in the workbook for the 8/17/2010 council meeting, page 92 of 182):

“A concern was expressed that companies locate to a community for the economic incentives and then later relocate to another community for additional incentives. It was noted that businesses who make more substantial investments in real property and fixed assets are less likely to relocate.”

Yet, here is a council, once again repeating the mistakes of past councils and ignoring the concerns expressed by the Master Plan Steering Committee (a committee that they, themselves, appointed) and giving a building, plus $250,000 in taxpayer-paid custom renovations, plus a $200,000 interest-free, forgivable loan to a business that cannot possibly make a return-on-investment (ROI) for over 20 years, IF the business decides to stick around that long!!!

On page 93 of the workbook, the MSPC minutes state:

“A key economic development strategy is to support the sustainability and expansion of the existing workforce. 80% of job growth is from existing businesses.”

Yet, again repeating the mistakes of past councils, this council is apparently prepared to squander not only $450,000 and a perfectly good, sound office, commercial or retail building, but also the unknown liabilities included in the mysterious, secretive, hidden Exhibits B and C (see page 130 of 182 in the workbook) on a new business run by an unknown outsider, with very little possibility of any ROI…and they are guaranteeing him a virtual monopoly to boot!!!

Also on page 93 of the workbook, the MPSC minutes state:

“The City has a strategy to recruit new businesses from targeted industries.”

IF this is true, then the ONLY “new businesses” they have ever targeted in years for the former downtown Middletown are the arts, antiques, up-scale bistro-type eateries with limited appeal to the immediate demographics. This “strategy” has been a proven failure over and over and over in promoting any sort of economic growth in this area. Yet the city has purposely and actively “discouraged” all other types of businesses from coming anywhere near what strangely seems to be treated as some sort of “sacred ground”.

On page the Master Plan Steering Committee again tries to tout “The

Middletown Promise” which, if you all will forgive my bluntness, has been proven thus far to be more of a “Middletown Moving Forward” lie. For how many years have we heard this “promise”? For how many students has this “promise” been kept? Certainly this is one aspect where cold, hard facts and figures could back up “The Promise” and shut up this critic, so what do the facts and figures say???

ANYONE???

Near the bottom of page 93 of 182 of the workbook, the minutes of the MPSC state:

“It was noted that the EPA restrictions on the expansion of the combined sewer system is blocking the development of areas in the northeast corner of the City.”

So, while the “Master Plan Steering Committee” fiddles around AGAIN with regurgitated versions of the repeatedly failed Main Street plans, and broken Middletown promises, and useless slogans, they finally mention one bit of sad TRUTH: The combined sewer system is one of our problems, and hampers our economic viability!!! BUT, do they even hint of facing that problem??? NO!!! Once again, City Hall fiddles while Middletown burns!!! “Olde Tyme Middle Towne” can make do with a combined sewer system, so they keep their heads stuck in the sand with nary a mention of seeking a solution for the problem. The new “Bright Future Middletown”??? Well, we can print that on our letterheads, while we throw our money (and our future) down the Olde Tyme sewers!!!

Next, if one looks at the “Finance Subcommittee Meeting Minutes” on page 97 of 182 of the workbook, one will see the short entry:

“Ideas on the Public Safety levy were discussed, how to approach, when to get started and who to include in the levy.”

Who would have guessed it???

Next we come to page 149 of 162 of the workbook and another tax-guzzling boondoggle, the “Main Street Program”!!!

This dodge now wants to turn itself into a “charity”!!! In a way, this is actually appropriate, because they don’t want to support themselves, yet they want everything done “their way!!” They don’t care whose property it is, or what any of the mere taxpayers think, just hand over the money, then stay away, please! As mentioned above, we have been trying, and failing, at this repeatedly for years, and tens of millions of “Olde Tyme dollars” have gone down the Olde Tyme sewers” all to no avail, but that doesn’t matter to these fanatics. They now are looking to the “Community Building Institute” (a code word for Miami University, a taxpayer supported institution) for one-third of their funds, and the Middletown taxpayers for one third of their funds. And for the “other third??? Well, they will be looking to “other financial support”??? Much of this will be taxpayer funds channeled through various agencies to look like it is NOT taxpayer funds.

Also, as usual with these groups, the main “movers and shakers” can be found in and around City Hall positions, but they deny conflicts of interest. So, this regurgitated “Main Street Program” is nothing more than another proven failure and a certain waste of taxpayer money with virtually no chance of ROI on “bagholders’ (taxpayers’) money, but also another sure delay of any possible start of real progress or renewal for the area that was once downtown Middletown.

Some city council (why not THIS city council???) MUST begin to realize that the former downtown area can NEVER begin a rebirth until we stop wasting all of our time and money on the same old failed programs over and over and over again!!! This will require a purge of City Hall of all of the obstructionists currently in residence (and their spouses or significant others).

And that brings us to page 152 of the workbook, and the absolutely Draconian, unnecessary, heavy-handed, unconstitutional “Historic Commission for the City of Middletown.”

Council members, this gang has the power to charge anyone in town with a second degree misdemeanor, fined up to seven hundred fifty dollars ($750.00) or imprisonment for not more than ninety days, or both. A separate offense shall be deemed committed each day during or on which a violation or noncompliance occurs or continues. This means that if you stand up to these screwballs for ONE WEEK, you could be on the hook for OVER $5,000.00 and over ONE YEAR in PRISON!!! And ALL of their rulings are COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE!!!

They can prevent you from modifying or upgrading your property. They can force you to, or prevent you from, selling your property based on their sole judgment, depending upon intended uses, even if such uses are completely legal!!!

They are counting on bullying you with this section of ordinances, counting upon the fact that for you to defend your inviolable private property rights under Article 1 of the Ohio Constitution, will be so expensive that you will have no choice but to accede to THEIR wishes, or more than likely, sell out cheaply to one of their “friends”. It is unconscionable that our city officials even consider this piece of legislation!!! They should disband this group immediately!!!



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 6:45am
Mike- all valid points to be answered by Council and the city leaders. Will any of them respond.....no. Will any of them take you or anyone else on this forum seriously.....no. Do they care what we think (or anyone outside the loop for that matter).....no. Are we wasting our time trying to communicate with them.... yes. They are determined to do it their way to appease the small faction of "influential" people in this town. Been that way for a long time. I was hoping things would be different with our new candidates on board. Started out ok, with Josh and A.J. and Ms. Scott-Jones asking questions and challenging the status quo, but now........perhaps the resistance has gone away. How about it councilmembers- are you still in the hunt or have you been silenced?

Josh, you appear to frequent this forum enough to keep up with the general theme here on this matter. I'm wondering what difference it makes whether we send you an E-Mail or communicate with you on this forum. Why do you find it necessary to insist that we E-Mail you? What is the difference?

We are all somewhat confused as to YOUR decision (not necessarily what your constituency wants) to vote to approve this deal. Do the majority of the people in the 3rd Ward want this to go through or is this what you want without getting a pulse from the people? Do you really believe that using taxpayer money to fund a private venture, knowing the previous history of deals like this, is a good thing for the city? What will be your response if this doesn't pan out like you and the rest of council are expecting? How will you explain your decision to the people if Verdin fails to honor his committment or the artists don't show up in numbers and the building is, once again, empty, with all the monies spent to set it up for him? Aren't you taking a big chance with the taxpayer's money? We know your viewpoint on the matter but am interested to hear how you arrived at your conclusion. If you three vote for this and this goes down in flames, be prepared for the verbal onslaught to follow. You know as well as I, it will not be delicately worded, should this fail.


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 7:26am
Mr.Laubaugh--I have emailed every Councilmember about this issue(response from 2) and have spoken to you often(not about this issue). I really don't have much to add beyond what I have posted here under the appropriate topics. I really don't want to bother you at home off of the clock, however you know how to reach me, and if you really want to discuss this issue, please call me.
 
This is a bad idea and a very poor deal for the taxpayer.
Make Pendleton up their stake in this project considerably. If they won't do that, then they don't want to be here that badly.
 
As I mentioned, please don't view the citizens and valuable restored public property as less than worthless. This giveaway can't be changed later. The conditions are unbelievably unfavorable to the citizens, and need to be changed by tomorrow. We know that this won't happen, so there is no other sensible choice than to kill this legislation as an emergency(as you know, it is no emergency) and re-make this whole agreement. Obvious to almost everyone to be the sensible solution. Outside of "citizen comments", there will be no public input on this issue, just as there was none allowed at the first reading two weeks ago. Why? This issue deserves long and hard debate.
 
Your current stance is contrary to everything that you campaigned about(you are being a politician now). From abuse of emergency legislation, to waste of taxpayer money and un-necessary giveaways. Not to mention a very ?able type of business and business arrangement.
 


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 7:43am
Just a quick note:
I'm feverishly working on an email listing all the reasons (voluminous) why to vote NO!!
I'll post it after I email it.
I won't address Mr. Laubach individually, it'll be to entire council.
One aside to Mr. Laubach (maybe I'll get more respect If I call him "Mr."):
YOU were the one who introduced Messrs. Jefferson and Smith into this discussion!!!  I'd be interested in hearing ANY quotes you might be aware of wherein EITHER of those gentlemen indicate that they would vote for something such as this!!!
 
I won't hold my breath waiting for a response, I know that you're busy.


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 8:53am
Below is the SECOND email that I sent to all council members this morning.
I had planned to attend the meeting tomorrow, though it sounds like it will do no good.
 
Is anyone else up to it???
 
 
Lady and gentlemen of City Council:

Please find below, a listing of reasons why you should vote against, and lobby your fellow council members to vote against, Ordinance No. O2010-53, the Pendleton Art Center Proposal, at tonight’s meeting:

  1. NO actual business plan has been presented.
  2. NO projected Return on Investment (ROI) for the taxpayers has been presented.
  3. City staff claims there has been an “extensive demographics study” performed, but no statistics of any kind were able to be presented when the EDD was questioned about the results.
  4. NO commitment of new employment has been made or included in the contract.
  5. NO commitment of a financial investment by Verdin is included in the contract.
  6. NO actual facts or statistics of any kind have been presented to council (in public).
  7. Before approval, staff owes council and council owes the public information on whether or not a $700,000 building, plus $450,000 in cash and cash equivalents has been offered to any other businesses who have wanted to come to Middletown without any real plan or commitments such as described in the six items immediately above.
  8. The “Master Plan Steering Committee“ (a committee that council itself has appointed!) has advised against such agreements:
  9. “A concern was expressed that companies locate to a community for the economic incentives and then later relocate to another community for additional incentives. It was noted that businesses who make more substantial investments in real property and fixed assets are less likely to relocate.”
  10. The “Master Plan Steering Committee“ supports that a “key economic development strategy is to support the sustainability and expansion of the existing workforce. 80% of job growth is from existing businesses.”
  11. The dreams and expectations of ancillary growth and spurring of economic activity expressed for this venture are nearly the same as those expressed for Beau Verre. Those hopes and dreams have been proven to be false, even though Beau Verre itself has been quite successful. There is absolutely nothing that makes the expectations for this outcome to be any different. NO ONE has cited facts, figures, statistics, or anything excepts hopes and dreams to provide expectations of a more favorable outcome for this venture.
  12. There is NO reason except for personal preference of those in and around City Hall for the City to have a strategy of recruiting new businesses from this targeted industry (the arts) when nearly every venture in that industry attempted here has either failed, or, at best has been self-sustaining without spawning ANY additional economic activity. MAC has not done so, Middletown Symphony has not done so, Beau Verre has not done so, Sorg Opera has not done so. Rising Phoenix has not done so., etc., etc., ad nauseum. Please explain the Obsessive/compulsive urge to continue to use taxpayer funds where all public and private attempts have failed and how this continues to be in the public interest!!!
  13. The ONLY “new businesses” that have been targeted in years for the former downtown Middletown are the arts, antiques, up-scale bistro-type eateries with limited appeal to the immediate demographics. This “strategy” has been a proven failure over and over and over in promoting any sort of economic growth in this area. Yet the city has purposely and actively “discouraged” all other types of businesses from coming anywhere near what strangely seems to be treated as some sort of “sacred ground”. What has changed suddenly to make this different??? Is this something like the “Middletown Promise” in that it does not really exist?
  14. The Mater Plan Steering Committee notes that: “the EPA restrictions on the expansion of the combined sewer system is blocking the development of areas in the northeast corner of the City.” Can these funds not be better applied towards that end? Or towards road improvements?
  15. As of Friday, 8/13/2010 (the day that the workbook was posted on the city website) Exhibits B and C remain “Not available”! I doubt that any of the legal minds on Council or on City Staff would recommend signing a contract with BLANK spaces. Yet here is a contract with KEY EXHIBITS that remain BLANK!!! It boggles the mind, and should boggle council, how an agreement could have been reached TWO WEEKS AGO. Council would be well-advised to ask themselves how this agreement between the city staff and Verdin could POSSIBLY have been reached without knowing: Developer’s final floor plan for the development of the Property by the construction of improvements thereon these shall be a part of this Agreement as shown on Exhibit B, or what the City shall necessarily repair or cause to be repaired, the items described in Exhibit “C”!!! Neither party could possibly know their liabilities. Staff is either HIDING information from Council, or is incompetent and an extreme liability to the city, and should be summarily fired in either case!!! There should be no other choice!!! They are NOT honoring their oath of employment!!!
  16. Mr. Robinette stated that PAC-M will not be competing with PAC-C because PAC-M will be drawing from a “30 mile radius.” The fact is that PAC-M is 31 miles (as the crow flies, if I may use such a low-brow term) from PAC-C. If I recall my geometry correctly, that means that 25% of their draw is EXACTLY the same, including the toney West Chester and Indian Hills areas. (Let’s hope that the rest of Mr. Robinette’s “extensive demographic studies aren’t similarly flawed.)
  17. City staff has been more than “reticent”, shall we say, to allow anything but arts-oriented businesses (include antiques in that) downtown. Council should be questioning this, in the opinion of the people, since arts have never flourished in downtown Middletown!
  18. If THIS council” repeats the mistakes of past councils it will inhibit free trade by subsidizing this one, single "packager", thereby FOREVER guaranteeing him a MONOPOLY on art studios, coffee shops, and framing stores within MILES of downtown Middletown!!! This will likely cause HIGHER prices, FEWER “artists”, LESS overall commerce downtown, and concurrently INCREASE poverty, crime, and hasten the decline of both downtown and the ENTIRE city!!
  19. The Broad Street Bash shows that Middletonians will go to the former downtown area for the right reasons. When was the last time that the “fine arts” drew 3,000 or more people downtown in one weekday night? 2,000? 1,000? “The People will return to downtown for the right reasons! We can FACTUALLY prove that, we have empirical data. Council just needs to understand that what city staff is selling “ain’t the right reason!!!”
  20. How was this PAC-M thing initiated? Was a Request for roposals/Qualifications for the utilization of up to $500,000 in available funds for bona fide downtown redevelopment made? Where was it advertised? Or was this just a “done deal” for ONE person??? If so, WHY??? Is that legal??
  21. Can anyone provide the attendance figures for the 143rd American Watercolor Society, Midwestern Exhibition, a three-week (plus) event recently held here in Middletown? This was a purported draw from the ENTIRE mid-west!! If attendance over THREE WEEKS for that wasn’t in 6 figures, how many serious art-lovers (those who will buy, not just those looking for free wine) do you REALLY think will show up every month here.
  22. Who insists on finding individuals who must be PAID to implement variations of FAILED models of business that have no record in our city of promoting economic growth, increasing local employment, or of adding to the local income tax base, and must do so using financing from taxes confiscated from the working poor and middle class with little hope of any return on such investment??
  23. If one does the math, even if this new art center achieves all that is expected, after several years, it will only be bringing between 35 to 50 visitors to town one Saturday per month. (Based on PAC-C size, numbers.) How can anyone consider this a proper use of taxpayer funds or expect it to spawn more businesses???
  24. How much “art” will our new starving artists have to sell just to pay back the taxpayers for Mr. Verdin’s $200,000 loan and $250,000 in improvements? I’ll tell you: IF they are all honest, declare ALL sales at full value as income, claim NO expenses or deductions of any kind (not even the “standard“ deduction), THEN ONLY a little over $25.7 MILLION dollars worth of art will have to be produced and sold out of the proposed PAC-Middletown for the taxpayers to get their CASH investment back!!!

Anyway, other than the above 24, I can only think of a few dozen more reasons to vote “NO” on this terrible piece of legislation, but it is way past my bedtime and I am very tired of typing.

However, I do have one question for you esteemed council members, or for city staff):

Can anyone explain to us mere citizens EXACTLY why this will be "a great thing" using actual facts and figures? That is, can anyone explain why it will be "a great thing" using ANYTHING other than wishes and dreams?



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 9:15am
Much better presentation Mr.P.
I doubt that I will attend tomorrow evening.
Outside of "Citizens' Comments", there will be no public discussion(when was public discussion on this legislation outside of on MUSA?). I'm sure that our Mayor will have his 3-minute timer for any of our comments, though Mayor Mulligan responded to my email in a very prompt,open and courteous manner. Also Ms.Scott Jones responded. Nothing from my ward Councilmember(for the 2nd time--2 different issues).
 
Though if there is a large group going down to voice their opinions, I will be there. 


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 9:22am
This whole approach by, I assume Judy and Kohler, boggles the mind.  This city has spent years making it tough for any existing business to survive here, from battling AK execs over income tax collection years ago, to essentially running/ignoring the AK HQ out of town, to turning down interest by viable businesses to purchase the Swallen's building, and on and on and on.  No, we wouldn't want actual businesses to stay in town and pay city income taxes, but we do want artsy businesses to open up and never have any chance of contributing to tax base.  It's as if city admin wants us to become Yellow Springs.


Posted By: townemallgroupie
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 9:37am

THE GROUPIE WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS:

Bring some artsy stuff to town.  You rednecks need a little a little culturing.  It can't be NASCAR and 2-for1s at Fricker's all the time, dammit!


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 10:03am
Nice try groupie- actually, you can't stereotype rednecks with NASCAR anymore. The backyard, redneck, junker race cars in the old days of NASCAR (50's-60's) are a thing of the past. There's big money in NASCAR now and, like all racing, has gone upscale. (Personally, I like Mid-Ohio-Audi, Corvette, BMW, Porsche racing, not NASCAR), but it is still quite expensive to race.

2 for 1 Frickers???? Naw, don't get out much these days.

You still want the arts downtown after all of these posts and all the data and reasons why this is a bad idea? All of this is not convincing enough for you? Risking your taxpayer money on a venture like this doesn't throw up any caution flags for you? Giving Verdin a free ride on the taxpayer's back doesn't bother you? Concentration of something as insignificant as the arts when this town is on life support as to the need for the basics doesn't worry you? Mercy!


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 10:28am
hey groupie---how many art purchases have you made at Beau Verre?
When was the last time that you were there?
Did you support ACF ana MAMF?
What art is at Towne Mall?
 
Any report on the MAMF music fest in the former downtown area last Saturday?
Great bands and music variety.
No coverage in the MJ--no crowd estimates or reviews--no  organizational comments


Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 2:18pm
From the photos on the Journal's website the ARt and Music Festival looked like a bust to me.  No more than 10 or so people in any picture.
 
http://projects.middletownjournal.com/cache/galleries/Entertainment/Events/081410mamfestival/ - http://projects.middletownjournal.com/cache/galleries/Entertainment/Events/081410mamfestival/


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 2:29pm
It would seem to me that getting more notoriety for taking care of existing businesses, getting serious on the sewer and street issues (what about municipal bonds?), and leveling more useless buildings to create more "shovel ready sites" would be a better approach for potential rebirth of Middletown.


Posted By: Sal
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 2:54pm
You people have nothing better to do with your time than to complain complain complain and post your "intellectual" thoughts on here.  You give people like me the occasional laugh (which I am young by the way) because I spend the majority of my time learning from people who aren't wasting their time with silly forum posts and are actually courageous enough to help and empower young people like me and Mr. Laubach.  What a poor example you..."intellectuals" and well experienced people are for young guys like myself.  You're all a joke too me.  I'm glad I don't know you but I do learn from you and that is...what I don't want to be when I get "40 years" under my belt.

First and last post.  I have more important things to do than read your mindless negativity.   




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Sal


Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 3:14pm
Sal, thanks for your post. I do have a question for you, and I dont care if you respond or not ( which you wont). If you are in the age range of Mr. Laubach, then you are also in my age range. So, I have to ask...do you like living in a town that has 1600 section 8 vouchers, a town that has the worst roads around. A town that has leaders that only think of what is good for them and their friends??
 
You talk about people on this site like they do not know what is happening in this town any one with half a brain can see the shape we are in. I guess you cant see it, so half a brain is what you must be missing.
 
I hope when the art center does come to the downtown area you enjoy yourself there, make sure to help the crack heads and hookers you find in that area, since you seem to care so much about our fair city.


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Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357


Posted By: townemallgroupie
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 4:42pm
Don't underestimate the Towne Mall.  It has something for everybody.  If you're into coins, it has "Middletown Coin Connection."  If you're into vitamins, it has "Vitamin World."  If you're into farmer's markets, it has "Farmer Frank's."  If you're into sports, it has "Dunham's Sports."  If you're into jewelry, it has "Roger's Jewelers."  If you're into nails, it has "Cincinnati Nails."  If you're into crickets, it has a "Cricket" store.  WTF else do you guys want???  The penny horse from Meijer???  Now get on over there and support the place before it has a date with a wrecking ball! 
 


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 5:05pm
Bring on the wrecking ball!!  I want a six story office tower full of corporate headquarters....like AK, Contech, First Financial.....oh wait...on second thought....


Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Aug 16 2010 at 5:09pm
TownMall, dont forget pot holes large enough to swallow your car.

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Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357


Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Aug 17 2010 at 8:54am
Sal - you knock everyone on here for their "intellectual" comments.  Explain yours to us - you are  acting like a 12 year old.  If you want to play with the grown ups - then post your side of the debate on why you think Pendleton is great for the city.
 
Personnally I do not have a problem with the Art Center - but the deal he is getting is not right by any means.  Since you are young - go talk to some economic professors - and they will tell you this will not generate money to the city.  Nor will a monthly garage sale add business to the downtown area.   



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