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6/21 Council meeting comments

Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: City Council
Forum Description: Discuss individual members and council as a legislative body.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3951
Printed Date: May 20 2024 at 6:54pm


Topic: 6/21 Council meeting comments
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Subject: 6/21 Council meeting comments
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 12:46am
First, it appears that we will be seeing both a “Senior Citizens’ levy” and a Public Health levy” on this November’s ballot.
Personally, I think both of these could be worthy causes, BUT (it seems like there is always a “but”, doesn’t it???) please recall what happened to the PUBLIC SAFETY levy that was passed a few years ago: The proceeds of that levy were “dedicated” and “earmarked” and “committed“ and “promised” and “designated” to be completely set aside for increased PUBLIC SAFETY.
But what actually happened to those funds??? We saw no actual increase in public safety forces. Instead the funds were used to plug the budget holes left due to extravagant spending by reckless councils and city administrations.


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012



Replies:
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 12:54am

So, no one would hazard a guess as to how much money would be spent maintaining our submarine/bike path. My guess is more will be spent on it this year than it would take to subsidize Sunset Pool for FIVE YEARS!!!. Of course, one is for the connected adults on fancy bikes wearing coordinated sweat suits; the other is “for the kids”.



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 2:25am

While the state law (ORC Chapter 727) under which Law Director Landen, et al, claim the authority to petition for the olde tyme street lamps on S. Main Street does address “lighting”, it certainly does NOT address the DEMOLITION of perfectly adequate, EXISTING street lighting meeting the standards of the City of Middletown, to be replaced with DECORATIVE lighting which (most likely) supplies a lower illumination rating.

Further, like the bike path, the “law of unintended consequences is not being considered. The taxpayers will be stuck with the higher maintenance, utility and replacement costs associated with these faux olde tyme gas lights, as well as the higher crime and vandalism costs associated with the lower illumination levels.
 
Further, it is both unfair and extravagant in these times of economic malaise for some areas of our city to go without adequate street lighting, while thousands of extra taxpayers’ dollars are wasted to demolish perfectly good lights for replacement by decorative lights.
 
Yet they say we are in dire straits and taxes must be RAISED!!!  Go figure!!!


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 2:34am

Did I see and hear Mayor Lawrence P. Mulligan, Jr. participating in the S. Main St. olde tyme street light discussion. Isn’t our Honorable Mayor one of the direct beneficiaries of this item and isn't he blatantly in favor of it??? Isn’t that a “conflict of interest” and therefore wasn’t his participation contrary to state law??? Shouldn’t Law Director Landen have put a stop to that???

Or, was I hallucinating???


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 2:50am

Finally, I certainly agree with Councilman (and attorney) Picard’s suggestion about getting council out of the Public Housing Authority business.

At last, they (except Councilman Smith) want to do things the LEGAL way??? With FOUR lawyers (Picard, Allen, Adkins, Landen) involved, one would think that they would have read the ORC before now and would have known that they were, and are, acting illegally!!!

They cannot appoint themselves to a board, and they cannot oversee or administer a contract. “After the authority to make such contracts has been given and the necessary appropriation made, the legislative authority shall take no further action thereon.”



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 7:17am
ornamental street lights for the S Main hyterical district ?s:
as Mr.P asked--are they more expensive to maintain(clean--power--construct)?
 
will the energy charge also go to the property frontage owner(especially since Council/Admin wants to shift the city-wide street light costs to residents)?
 
the city(through Olde Southe Parke) owns considerable frontage in this project. Did "they" "vote" in favor of this project? Did they "vote" "against" this project? Was their frontage exposure considered in the mix?
 
should the city share(construction-maintenence-power charges-lamping) and added taxpayer expense prohibit Council/Admin from approving this project considering their financial position and their overall street light proposal?
 
will this added construction slow down the roadway/curb/gutter construction and/or add to those costs?
 
shouldn't Council ask some of these ?s?
 
senior center levy proposal:
a goofy drawn-out presentation
 
seemed a liitle greedy and over the top imo
 
Sure--we all have very expensive wish lists
basketball court for seniors?
another park?
why not a golf course also(we have one possibly for sale!)?
 
been there many times--anyone ever see African Americans in that building?
ren't we cutting services at the Community Center?
 
Still--it is totally up to the voters
 
How much $$ does everyone think the public has as discretionary income?
 
At least Mr.Carolus lays his cards clearly on the table(then the chicanery begins).
 
Could the city voters approve a health dept.levy and still dump the health dept?
We have seen how dedicated funds can be manuevered.


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 7:23am
Say no to the Senior Citizen levy.  No one forced them to build a Taj Mahal on Central that they couldn't afford.Thumbs%20Down


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 8:07am
Originally posted by spiderjohn spiderjohn wrote:

...Could the city voters approve a health dept.levy and still dump the health dept?
We have seen how dedicated funds can be manuevered.
Well, we are less than FOUR years into the FIVE year levy dedicated, earmarked, committed, promised, and designated solely for increased public safety, and not only have we NOT seen any increase in public safety personnel, they are ready to begin CUTTING public safety manpower on August 15 if police and fire do not agree to wage rollbacks to 2008 levels!!!
 
Why would anyone believe that a "Public Health" or a "Senior Citizens" levy would be handled any differently???  As soon as the right "Friends of City Hall" want the doggie park badly enough or the Historical Gang lobbies for The Manchester for a new Museum of Middletown History, the Health Department and the Senior Citizens will go right under the bus!!! 
 
Or who knows???  Perhaps 60% of the folks on S. Main might decide that everyone in their neighborhood needs an electrified Lawn Jockey to illuminate the house number on their curb--so that Senior Citizens or the Public Health nurse or the police or firefighters can find their houses at night.


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: 409
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 8:09am
Would these faux olde tyme gas lights be of the more expensive metal variety or of the cheapo plastic variety that were installed on my street years ago? Hmmm......


Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 8:40am
Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:


But what actually happened to those funds???

They went to public safety.


Posted By: middletownscouter
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 8:42am
Didn't we just pass a senior citizens levy recently, or are all the elections running together now in my head?


Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 8:43am
Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

[
Well, we are less than FOUR years into the FIVE year levy dedicated, earmarked, committed, promised, and designated solely for increased public safety,[/QUOTE]

I don't recall anyone saying that the public safety levy would "increase" public safety.  Who said that?  


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 9:24am
In typical fashion, the city is pandering to help protect their special interest friends and deploy croynism with the tax plans for support of the Senior Citizens Center. I question if this is ethical appropriate. Mulliagn should not be voting on many of these issues. The Sr. Citizens Group overpaid and overextended themselves to buy the John XXIII property and then build another facility. That helped Fenwick move OUT of Middletown, where Milligan's mother became Principal. The problems and money will not be used to enhance or add to educating seniors, but retire their debt. They have expenses monthly > than what they bring in. It was speculated it might close. So, the pauback for that organization and their purchase to help Fenwick move is a tax levy?  Then you have of course, the qid pro qup for seniors then voting for the property tax, because they get the Homestead tax break. This is highly unethical if not illegal, as to what purpose and need does the Senior Center provide as an outcome of the levy taxes collected if passed? A better position to pay their debt because they help pass tax levies since they are in retrement homes or get a break from taxes? Anyone who supports this is wrong.
 
The Senior Citizens Center doesn't even have grass growing in the field, its all clover and dangerous for those who are allergic to bees. And because they cannot get their membership up, the tax payer is supposed to bail them out under the cloak of a benefit? It benefits no one but debt retirement because their membership numbers are flat
 
Now, to raisning $3.50 per household for the street lights? These actions are unethical and unsupported by fact. How much does the city pay for lighting, and how much will be generated is the question. All of these actions just alienate others from ever wanting to step foot in Middletown, the trivial taxes, the red light cameras, admitted to NOT BE ABOUT SAFETY but revenue generation (act surprised), and the waste bailing out the Thatcher estate while neglecting other issues
 
Middletwonians, you pass these levies, you all should be put in a mental ward.  


Posted By: middletownscouter
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 9:46am
You're partially right. Fenwick didn't directly benefit from the levies because they had zero interest in the property that is now the Senior Center. That was John XXIII school and they purchased the old Fenwick building and then sold the old property on Central. John XXIII and Fenwick are two different organizations.


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 10:01am
Marianne is correct in that there was never a promise to INCREASE the level/manpower within public safety.
 
However there WAS  a guarantee that current levels of services/manpower would be maintained throughout the course of the levy. This guarantee is totally controlled by city admin pending Council approval.
 
And now Council/Admin is advocating/planning to cut these service/manpower levels BEFORE the current levy expires, which would be an unfortunate contradiction to the Admin promise.
 
The levy was projected to bring in $15,000,000 over it's 5-year run, however the revenue has not been as anticipated.
 
Am I correct on this Marianne?
 
Then AJ confuses the issue by stating that the public safety levy was a property tax instead of an income tax(he had a bad night).
 
Anita summed it up correctly when stating that new business influx, current business expansion and job creation would still be the most basic long-term method of solving most of these cash crunch issues. Do we still have a functional ED dept.? If so, what are they doing? They had a pretty healthy dept.budget, which could be down0-sized very easily since the loss of the dept.head and his out-of-control expense account and municipal giveaways(which have produced very little payback so far).


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 10:07am
Originally posted by Marianne Marianne wrote:

Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

Well, we are less than FOUR years into the FIVE year levy dedicated, earmarked, committed, promised, and designated solely for increased public safety,


I don't recall anyone saying that the public safety levy would "increase" public safety.  Who said that?  
Marianne:
It is on the record, and the record is the record!!!  But don't take my word for it!!!  Feel free to search back for either the minutes of City Council meetings, or the DVD of same, for the budget discussions for the 2008 budget (held in the fall of 2007), and see it for yourself.  At that time, both the Fire Chief and the Chief of Police asked for a $500,000 (each) increase in departmental budgets over their 2007 budgets.  Part of the reasoning used to justify the increase was to hire two ADDITIONAL personnel (each) to "increase public safety".  Two times $500,000 equals one million dollars per year.  The "Public Safety levy" has been bringing in $2.8 million per year, yet NO additional people have ever been hired, and less than four years (and about TEN MILLION DOLLARS) into the "Public Safety levy" they are ready to CUT people, due to lack of funds!!!


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 10:19am
MScouter---the crux of the point is direct: this council is placing the Senior Center initiatve to bail out the underfunding they currently have, and many council people have ties to BOTh John XXIII and Fenwick, ergo Mulligan, Picard, and about all of city hall, Wall, past chiefs, etc
 
Fenwick and John XXIII are directly linked, its called the Archdiocese of  Cincinnati. John XXIII got the Fenwick building when the caveat for the Fenwick move was raising $4 Mm.
 
The issue is the city is placing a burden on residents associated with the Senior Citizens Center's financial problems, and spreading it out among tax payers, when they overpaid for the John XXIII property.
 
On both levies, and the 3.50 charge per light, it is unconscionable with all the damage the city has done to its residents, they have the nerve to bring these to vote---the city is NOT IN THE BUSINESS of bailing out the Senior Citizen Center. The Health Department can merge with Butler Cty. I see no justifcation in fact, collecting 3.50 a month for a street lamp. Is that a) going to attract a buyer to your house you may be selling b) make fewer buyers interested in your house sitting in Middletown. Its b.     


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 10:26am
Property taxes vs Income Taxes for raising revenue (enhancement). Why s the city putting thes elevies on a a property tax? Because the amount of tax revenue generated per income tax is going down because the city is NOT bring in business. Yet again, property tax would not be a win, because Middletown property value has fallen about 40%, but few challenge the tax assessment. So, property taxes the new prefererd  method of robbing the residents for all the fine services rendered in Middletown.   


Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 10:35am
Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

Originally posted by Marianne Marianne wrote:

Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

Well, we are less than FOUR years into the FIVE year levy dedicated, earmarked, committed, promised, and designated solely for increased public safety,


I don't recall anyone saying that the public safety levy would "increase" public safety.  Who said that?  
Marianne:
It is on the record, and the record is the record!!!  But don't take my word for it!!!  Feel free to search back for either the minutes of City Council meetings, or the DVD of same, for the budget discussions for the 2008 budget (held in the fall of 2007), and see it for yourself.  At that time, both the Fire Chief and the Chief of Police asked for a $500,000 (each) increase in departmental budgets over their 2007 budgets.  Part of the reasoning used to justify the increase was to hire two ADDITIONAL personnel (each) to "increase public safety".  Two times $500,000 equals one million dollars per year.  The "Public Safety levy" has been bringing in $2.8 million per year, yet NO additional people have ever been hired, and less than four years (and about TEN MILLION DOLLARS) into the "Public Safety levy" they are ready to CUT people, due to lack of funds!!!


So, you agree with me that no one said that the public safety levy would increase public safety?  



Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 10:40am
Originally posted by spiderjohn spiderjohn wrote:

The levy was projected to bring in $15,000,000 over it's 5-year run, however the revenue has not been as anticipated.
 
Am I correct on this Marianne?
 
.


Spider,
I don't remember what the projected revenues were, but I do believe that what's been brought in has not been what was expected, so on that point I agree. 

.



Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 10:44am
So, ONE million bucks ($500K each) per year was going to INCREASE Public Safety, but THREE million bucks per year could only maintain the same level???  Is THAT what you are asking me to believe???

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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: middletownscouter
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 11:01am
John XXIII didn't "get" the Fenwick building, they had to purchase it, I believe using money loaned by the Archdiocese.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 11:36am
MScouter, I do not want to give point about the croynism associated with the Senior Citizens Group and the bailout associated with a tax levy based upkn their expenditures (AK also gave them > $ 1 Mm), but the Archdiocese of Cincinnati oversees and controls all schools in its region. There is local autonomy and fund rasing, but the Archdiocese calls the shots, so Fenwick and John XXIII are indeed, connected  Are they run different, have different standards, yes. My children went K-12 through both, and I know how they are connected and how distinct.
 
MP, sj, good points. We saw what happened in 1987 when the city said it just wanted some help by taking out dedicated funds for a few years (5 at most) to help with some cash flow issues to pay salaries. A few years turned into almost three decades in not having roads repaired.
 
What's the deal? Senior citizens more important than chidlren. Lets pass a $300,000 levy to pay for the void in the Senior Citizens Center while shutting down Sunset, lets put up historic street lamps to protect the "historic community" while destroying a 1928 built pool. Madness.
 
Lets buy and maintain real estate to benefit Perry Thatcher's estate for $ 1 Mm while charging residents to have a light on by streets, after a public safety levy was passed. Why is not money ($$$) associated with passing the public safety levy going to pay currently for the street lights? That's public safety isn't it?
 
It appears the school system is getting its fiscal act together, too bad this council and city leadership can't do the same. But they do have one advantage, organization, they know whom to target to get out the vote. Help is NOT on the way people. Wake up. Rome is burning and your pockets are being picked.   


Posted By: LMAO
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 3:21pm
Its simple as this.They pass these levies its more money that they can borrow out of.They all,including Josh needs to go.Smile


Posted By: Donham
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 3:40pm
So Mr. Presta, are you running for council to clean this stuff up?


Posted By: johnnyp26
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 3:56pm
I think a good question to ask the City Manager is why she turned down 3% of the fire budget in concessions (from the Fire Union!) in 2010.  Another may be how many times (over the years) the Fire Union offered a 0% raise to the City (to "save the budget") and were refused.  We also tried to give back 24 hours of vacation one year to "save the budget" but were refused.


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 22 2011 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by Donham Donham wrote:

So Mr. Presta, are you running for council to clean this stuff up?

Mr./Ms. Donham,

I have been asked this question many times. I have been urged to run by friends, acquaintances, strangers that I have encountered in local stores, bloggers on this and other similar forums, and even by some adversaries (as sort of a dare, implying that I lack courage, I presume).

Each time I have answered, and the answer is simple: Even though I believe I am qualified and that I would make an able councilman, I have several chronic medical issues that would make it more than difficult for me to serve the people in that capacity.

It’s as simple as that.

However, as I have discussed with my wife, there could be certain circumstances where I could not, in good conscience, sit here and let a seat go to certain individuals were they to be running unopposed. I pray that such circumstances never occur.


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 7:04am
I can just see the new line-up for the council now....

Leading off, we have Josh Laubach, who possesses the desire to do the right thing and wants to get to first each time at bat. He just needs the correct supporting cast to improve his on-field skills in taking a stand on issues. He can't improve alone and needs that support.

Hitting second, we have acclaro, who has observation powers and the ability to use common sense and logic in assessing any situation. A valuable asset in the molding of young Mr. Laubach.

Hitting in the third slot, we have Spiderjohn, who, like acclaro, has an uncanny knack for sorting through the bull hockey to get to the matter at hand, while understanding the ramifications and positives for any situation, while he demonstrates his desire to improve on this once proud community. Leadership capabilities in this person.

And in the clean-up council position, we have the heavy hitting Mike Presta, a seasoned and aggressive player with lightning quick rhetoric and data to support different positions.

Once in place, we can count on these individuals to start the house cleaning, starting with the city manager, the law director and the planning director, while shunning any efforts made by the MMF'ers to detract from the purging of the waste. This will be their first program under this new regime.....waste management.

It will be the start of the changing of the city in the direction it is suppose to go.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 7:52am
Thank you for the endorsement Vet, and comments. I unfortunately am tied up traveling in my career that my routine and council's dictate would not allow me to bi monthly, call into a Cisco teleconference system or Skype webcam HD every other Tuesday which would be required. My direct business approach would ruffle alot of feathers as well. But the travel requirements and time every few weeks is a conflict and a burden I could not overcome.
,
But, you and others, if interested, can count on me to help defeat and levy, craft a campaign and message to get out the vote and defeat the levy, and take back the city run into the sand by 30 years of mismanagement and pandering to a few.
 
If you would run, you would have many supporters as would sj and Mike Presta, and I am certain we could form a group to help assist your wife to allow you to take on these challenges, such as Visiting Angels, and other assistance.
 
There was a mayor in a large city in Florida a few months ago who tried to riase taxes enormously, akin to the city's actions every 4-5 years. A very rich man in the city got sick of it, and spent $ Mm of his money to defeat this nonsense and had the Mayor booted out of office. I would be pleased to help sweep out the mess on council and city leadership in any number of ways, but because of travel demands, unless the city passes an ordinance remote Skype webcam broadcasts are acceptable, I could never run for office. But i can contribute in many other ways and would relish the opportunity to do so.
 
Thanks Vet.    


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 7:55am
lol vet--nice lineup
thanx 4 the kind words
that would be a good time
no need to axe anyone as long as they operate in the direction desired
 
was told by a second Councilmember to pack my bags and git outta town if I don't like what they do
replied "OK as soon as you buy my properties with a sweetheart deal similar to Mr.Verdin,Thatcher estate, Finkleman or Duncan"--no reply
 
not my turn, donham, however Mr.P has a tough physical situation
he shouldn't have to run for Council to justify his city-wide concerns and ?s imo
 
still wondering about the S Main olde timey streetlight approval tally
was the city park frontage counted with the majority(putting the % over the requrement)?
if so--who made the decision?
if not--was the abstention(?) counted with the majority, or removed from the equation?
if the citizens are liable to pay for the assessments and light usage, should they have a say in this?
 
maybe so--maybe not
 
hopefully I don't have to run for office in order to asK ?s or express concerns
actually I run FROM Council


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 8:40am
"RUN"???  If you EVER see me running...call out the National Guard immediately!!!  There is something very, very dangerous chasing me!!! LOL LOL LOL

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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 9:56am
I did mean that lineup post in the most sincere way gentlemen. I think the group I mentioned would make a superb council and make great strides in turning our city (not theirs) around. I think each and every one of you possess the skills needed to make logical, common sense decisions at all levels, unlike the ,'s we have now. (with the exception of Ms. Scott-Jones and Mr. Laubach). I mistakenly omitted Ms. Scott- Jones in this group. She would flourish with people like you surrounding her. IMO, they are the only two on council that, if given a fair chance, could demonstrate their skills and feel better about what they are doing sitting behind that desk. Problem now is, they are surrounded by people who are either too ignorant to do the right thing, or have been paid off by the inner circle influence, and we can no longer tolerate that for the sake of the city's future health. The city has become a terminal cancer patient on life support due to their poor decisions and asinine priorities.

Give it some thought for the sake of the city, lady and gentlemen.


Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 8:13pm
Haven't the proceeds of the public safety levy simply gone to the increasing salaries and benefits of the police and firefighters?  Isn't it just that simple?  If they're averaging 3% per year in raises, it doesn't take long for a few million dollars to get eaten up by those raises.  So where is the controversy/confusion? 
 
It's not that I'm in favor of giving them these raises year after year--quite to the contrary, actually.  It's just very simple math that if your tax revenues remain roughly constant but 70% of your costs are increasing 3% per year then you're going to run out of money very quickly.  And as far as increasing the public safety--I would bet that the police and fire unions would make the argument that the safety has been increased, in a manner of speaking, since without the levies there would be even fewer public safety workers than there are now, so in a back-handed sort of way they've "increased" public safety... I don't buy that argument, but I would bet it's the one they would make. 
 
On the matter of Sunset pool--if you're opposed to the city operating a golf course, why is it ok to operate a swimming pool?  Is one inherently better than the other?  Because the pool is used "by the kids" does that make it a more worthy source of city funds?  If there isn't the interest or the willingness of the public to support a pool then so be it, let it be filled in and done with.  I wouldn't be happy over that, but why should the city subsidize the entry fees for kids?  I would hazard a guess that if they had raised the entry fees by $1-$2 per person it would have been more sustainable, but I can't say for sure, not having been close to the pool situation.
 
Also, with regard to the street lights on Main St., again, I would ask, where is the controversy, exactly?  If a majority of the people in a geography vote to increase their taxes for any reason whatsoever, what is the problem?  Consider this--the public safety levy will be used to keep passing out 3% raises and very fat pensions to police and firefighters, many of whom live outside Middletown as I understand it.  This tax levy will do little, if anything, to improve the lot of many citizens of Middletown, since, frankly, having 2 or 3 more cops and firefighters on the payroll won't have any meaningful impact on the well-being of the city.  If a group of people that live on a street vote to, say, re-pave their street, install new lights, re-pave the sidewalks, curbs, etc., this vote can directly impact their net worth in terms of the value of their home vis-a-vis a more attractive-looking neighborhood; the small additional tax may very well be a worthwhile investment of tax dollars, which is likely a very different story than the public safety levy.  So again, can someone tell me why it's a bad idea for neighborhoods to do this?  By the way, I don't live on Main Street but I think it would be a good use of my tax dollars if they were spent enhancing the very neighborhood I live in rather than lining the pockets of already well-compensated police and firefighters.  So viewed in that context, the street light votes are likely a much better investment and use of tax dollars than the many levies that come our way.  And given the fact that the unions would much rather sacrifice their own workers at the bottom of their totem poles (if you don't believe me, please let me know where they've shown any willingness to take pay cuts in order to preserve jobs--and watch closely how this plays out over the next few months, just see if the union heads show a wilingness to take a pay cut), it tells me that their priorities are not 100% the safety of Middletonians, they are very much a self-interested, quasi for-profit institution in their own right. 


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"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK


Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 8:46pm
And johnnyp26, I have to admit to being skeptical about the unions' willingness to offer up pay and/or vacation time to save jobs; I'd like to know more about when/why various concessions were refused.  If Gilleland did flatly refuse a 3% raise last year, then that was plainly stupid of her.  But I suspect there were some very long strings attached to that offer, e.g., foregoing a 3% raise this year for a 6% raise next year.  Am I right? If it's concessions that you want in order to save jobs, I believe you'll get your chance very soon to prove me wrong.

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"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 8:59pm
a citizen message to Council/Admin by stealing the lyrics from a new Ben Harper tune:
 
We g\ive and we give and we give until it's gone
Then the people that you fight hardest for say that you're wrong
Before me flashall of my memories and days
So don't stand insincere at the side of my grave
I will not be broken
I will not be turned away
 
We go too far then we go further still
Time starts to collapse leaving a void none can fill
Nothing you say can hurt me with your forked tongue
Through bloodshot eyes we watch our world become undone
 
When it's too cold to breathe and too dark to pray
 
We've come too far to give up or to be turned around
We will not go down
We will not be broken
We will not be turned away
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dykBvvfXVOc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dykBvvfXVOc
 


Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 9:39pm

 Not happy, show up at the podium.  Do we continue to tax our way out of problems or increase revenues. We loose a employee after 9 years of investment, going to Kettering, don't blame her. Hell yes lets all have block meetings and fix our streets, lights, sewer and sidewalks. Can I get a refund from Nix, after my neighbors and I wire our new street lights.  Leadership is broke folks.  And yes I know many of you have contact with your ward reps. but it ain't gettin any better.  Roman is Burning. Concessions?  Who's in charge? Again I ask, whats up with Neyer and the several cars that drive up and down I 75.  Did we get a gas station yet?  SJ you know what needs to happen, and it needs to be one clear message, spoken by many.



Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 10:05pm
Voice of Reason....IMO, any neighborhood in any section of this town could pay to have their streets paved, their sidewalks torn up and re-poured in concrete, new curbs and gutters, new street lights and could tie a yellow ribbon around all the oak trees and they still would not improve the value of their properties.....not in this economy and not in this town. In case you haven't noticed, the Butler County auditor has re-adjusted all properties in the county in the downward direction as to value. One of the hardest towns hit is Middletown as to real estate de-valuation. Even the desired neighborhoods have taken a hit. No cosmetic improvements are going to help if the community is not thought highly of and the city leaders have seen fit to make this community the joke of SW Ohio because of the saturated Section 8/ghetto/low income mentality adding to the reputation that it is a poorly governed town. There is nothing attractive provided by this town, at this time, that would be an attraction for new residents nor raise values for current residents. I don't agree with your assessment that you can raise property values in this town by making improvements. This is not a highly desired town to live in and hasn't been for many years. JMO


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 10:29pm
hey vet--u left out the part about the city, your property and you aren't safe here any more.
 
I hear that Marty is still here
Husemann may come back to advise/assist the person that he recommended to be hired to take over his job here?
Wouldn't that have to be approved through Council(though discussed in EXECUTIVE SESSION--probably has been done already)?
Wouldn't it be simpler and less expensive to just hire him back to the job?
 
Ever wonder why every outside levy request must come at the last minute and be approved as an emergency? Shouldn't these outside organizations have their ducks in order in time to go through the process in a normal manner? When will Council say "Enough of this--come back when you have time to go through the public hearing process--no more abuses"
Worked for the library--now senior center
 
million + to fix a f'n bike path while we have to pay to fix our own street(and light it)?
be taxed more to recieve less?
big $$ out there to spruce up parks and the former downtown--still few go to either
 
Think that we might need new leaders?
Why would any incumbant attempt to justify re-election?
 


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 11:11pm

Voice of Reason:

While I hear your Voice, I think that your Reasoning is flawed!!!

First, you ask:

“Haven't the proceeds of the public safety levy simply gone to the increasing salaries and benefits of the police and firefighters? Isn't it just that simple? If they're averaging 3% per year in raises, it doesn't take long for a few million dollars to get eaten up by those raises. So where is the controversy/confusion?”

The answer is simple: The confusion lies in the mathematics!!! You see, the nearly THREE MILLION DOLLARS raked in by the Public Safety levy equals nearly TEN percent of the TOTAL General Fund each year. And TEN percent of the TOTAL General Fund is equal to much more than the THREE percent represented by the public safety force’s raises that you describe, which are only a portion of the total General Fund.

Yet I still remained confused: If, just before the Public safety tax was passed, the fire chief and the police chief asked for a $500,000 per year increase each (a total of ONE million dollars per year) to INCREASE public safety, what has happened to the nearly THREE million dollars per year???

Actually, we all know the answer: Much of the “Public Safety Tax” was used to cover deficit spending in other areas of the General Fund, thus now forcing police and fire to DECREASE public safety by forced layoffs!!!

Next, you ask about Sunset Pool Vis à Vis Weatherwax Golf Course. I must say that your reasoning is much more sound on this issue, and I can’t really disagree with much of what you say. Yet, I will point out a few of the City’s inconsistencies on the issue:

  • The yearly subsidy for Weatherwax has been at or above $100,000 per year for several years; a single year’s subsidy from Weatherwax would’ve kept Sunset open for several years.
  • Sunset is “for the kids”. Yet, the very same city officials who ignore “the kids” in closing Sunset, expect the “it’s for the kids” catch-phrase to tug at the heartstrings of the voters each time a school levy is proposed.
  • City officials have outlawed billboard advertising of Middletown’s businesses along I-75, claiming it is “tacky” and unappealing. Yet, the City itself has advertised Weatherwax on billboards on I-75 just north and just South of Middletown. Talk about hypocrisy!!!

Last, you discuss the olde tyme street lights. First, you do realize that there are THOUSANDS or dollars of initial costs involved here, not only to those in the neighborhood who vote “yes”, but also to ALL Middletonians, and those in the neighborhood who do NOT want these lights (and may not be able to afford them). Voice, do you understand that YOU are helping to pay for these olde tyme lights, even though they already have adequate, standard city street lights??? While you argue that street lights make a neighborhood safer (and I certainly do agree), I should point out that the brighter street lights that now exist make the neighborhood safer than the dimmer olde tyme gas lights. Adding MORE dim olde tyme street lights will raise not only the initial cost (to ALL Middletonians, including YOU, Voice) but also the ongoing utility and maintenance costs (also to ALL Middletonians, including YOU, Voice). Also, there is something inherently WRONG about spending taxpayers’ money to demolish perfectly good street lights that meet all City standards, when some areas of the City do not have adequate street lighting.

Additionally, why is this section of Main Street being paved at this time in the first place??? It is certainly NOT the worst section of roadway in the City!!! Perhaps Ward Council Representatives Allen, Smith, Laubach, and Picard should drive around their own Wards and then see if they can justify voting to re-pave this relatively good section of roadway at this time. Perhaps these residents should be footing the bill for the re-paving of S. Main if they want that right now, before they worry about decorative lighting.

With our city facing a budget crisis, with layoffs pending in public safety, with ambulance run-times increasing to YOUR house, with cuts being threatened in all areas of public services, with tax increases looming to all citizens, HOW can we possibly justify the wasting of THOUSANDS of YOUR tax dollars to demolish perfectly good standard street lighting to replace them with dimmer olde tyme decorative street lights???



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 11:24pm
Originally posted by spiderjohn spiderjohn wrote:

Why would any incumbant attempt to justify re-election? 
If no one runs against them, there is no need for them to justify it.  They just run, get a few votes, sit on their "war chest", and return to their council seat to obediently do as the shot-callers say.

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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Jun 23 2011 at 11:32pm

I will be voting no and any and all tax increases/levies until we get a righteous set of people to steer this ship,until that I say let her sink.Of course if most of the council members,city law director and the city manager were to resign I would possibly have a change of heart but till then ill keep voting NO.



Posted By: Richard Saunders
Date Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 2:36am
Ladies and Gentlemen:  I fear that the City Council meetings in your town are illegal.  As evidence of this statement, I offer the following little known regulation gleaned from within the ponderous volumes of codes, laws, and ordinances applicable to your municipal corporation:
 
LICENSE REQUIRED.
No person shall engage in operating any circus, tent or canvas show, carnival or other similar entertainment enterprise, without first having obtained a license therefor as provided in this chapter.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 6:56am
Indeed, Richard, the city government is run like the reincarnation of the Barnum and Bailey circus. (or cheap little flea market carnival)

"without first having obtained a license therefor as provided in this chapter"

REMEMBER, AS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT IN THE PAST, THE CITY DOESN'T HAVE TO FOLLOW THE RULES THAT THEY WRITE, JUST THE CITIZENS. THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE TO FOLLOW THE LAW....CITY OR STATE. THAT GOES FOR PROPERTY RULES, RULES OF PROPER CONDUCT, CONFLICTS OF INTEREST, HIDDEN AGENDAS/RAMPANT EMERGENCY LEGISLATION FOR ULTERIOR MOTIVES, MONEY APPROPRIATION AKA "HIDE THE PEA UNDER THE SHELLS GAME", MEETINGS, SECRET OR OTHERWISE, ETC. ACCORDING TO PAST INFORMATION ON THIS FORUM, IT HAS BEEN WELL DOCUMENTED THAT THEY HAVE HABITUALLY VIOLATED CITY ORDINANCES AND MEETING CRITERIA TO ACCOMODATE ANY GIVEN SITUATION. THERE IS ALSO QUESTIONS CONCERNING THE MOVEMENT OF MONEY WITHIN THE DIFFERENT FUNDS. IT IS THE LAW DIRECTOR'S CREED.....VIOLATE ACCORDING TO THE NEED OF SPECIAL INTEREST....AKA FRIENDS OF THE CITY. LEONA HELMSLEY ONCE SAID THAT TAXES WERE FOR THE LITTLE PEOPLE. THE CITY OFFICIALS HAVE THEIR OWN VERSION.... RULES/LAWS ARE FOR THE LITTLE PEOPLE/MONEY MOVEMENT IS NONE OF THE PEOPLE'S BUSINESS.


Posted By: middletownscouter
Date Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 10:05am
Voice of Reason, I have no problem with the city operating a golf course per se, what I have a problem with is that the city claims that operating the pool is too expensive at around $50k a year while tossing over a MILLION dollars towards the golf course over the last five years with ZERO return. That's what I have a problem with. It's a disingenuous and it shows an obvious bias towards one group of our citizenry.


Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 4:26pm
Mike Presta,
 
I would like to do some further digging on the Public Safety levy and try to see for myself exactly how much money it has raised; I have no reason to doubt that it has had a $2.8M impact on the city's revenues, however, it seems likely that it has been offset by decreasing tax revenues elsewhere.  Has some of the money been re-directed toward areas other than public safety?  Perhaps, but I still suspect (without much research, granted) that most of it has gone to raises. 
 
Consider this mathematical reasoning:  Using round numbers, if public safety is 70% ($21M) of the $30M general fund, and those costs have gone up by roughly 4-5% each year (I'm assuming 3% base salary increases plus probably 10% increases in health care premiums and other benefits for another 1-2%), this means that the initial $21M public safety expenditure grows by $840K-$1.05M the first year, and that much plus some each year after that.  And as I mentioned, if other tax revenues have declined at all lately by just a few percent (they have) the public safety levy revenues are offset significantly by other tax revenue declines.  Mike, I will grant that you may have a point, that some of the funds that were generated under the public safety levy have been spent elsewhere, I just don't think it is some huge proportion of the funds.  But I will look into it further.  And given the fact that the public safety unions have made it so expensive to hire additional police/fire, would you think it wise to rush out and hire addtional workers at a total starting cost of $70-$80K each when city revenues are so tenuous?  I wouldn't.  But I will concede that other departments in the city need to feel the pain if the revenues decline. 
 
Also, to your point about the longer runs to my house in case of an emergency--frankly I don't buy that for a minute.  When the Fire Department stops sending a fire truck with every ambulance run, when they stop working their crews in nonsensical 24 hour shifts (a good portion of which is spent sleeping, to be sure), when they truly start operating like other 24-hour businesses (like hospitals, whose nurses work 3-4 12-hour shifts per week, with hopefully no sleeping), then I'll start to believe that there isn't room for cuts.  And by the way, I am hard on the Fire Department simply because I think they're overstaffed but I wouldn't say the same about police--two very different issues in my opinion.  So, as I'm sure I've made clear, I think there is ample room for reductions in the fire department, less so in the police department. 
 
Also, I never did make the claim that the street lights were a safety issue.  I soley made the argument that if a group of people vote to increase their taxes for some specified purpose they are well within their rights to do so in our republican (lowercase 'R') form of government.  I am not aware that I would have to help pay for these lights--that hasn't been made clear to me, it's only been my understanding that an increase in property taxes would pay for these lights.  In my mind, paying for the lights does, of course, include demolition of the old lights, and installation/maintenance of the new lights.  The entirety of these cost should be financed by the owners/beneficiaries themselves, but if that's not the case I'll agree with you that it's wrong.  I'm just not clear that I will have to pay for their lights in any way.  Again, I'm not fully researched on the issue, but that seemed to be the intent--that the owners sign a petition and self-fund the street improvements.  A noble, self-governing, democratic sort of ideal.  Any deviations from that would be wrong, but I'm certain there are any deviations.
 
To the point about those others who can't afford the additional taxes--will you plead that case for me to the city, state, or federal government when they raise my taxes?  Are you suggesting that if a person "can't afford" the tax that they should be exempt from it?  So if a levy passes 52-48, the 48% who voted against it should be exempt from it because they didn't want it?  I see this issue as a mini levy of sorts, and if a neighborhood desires to self-fund some street improvements then let them do it.  Tax increases, in my mind, are almost always unfortunate and to be avoided, but such a narrowly-focused, narrowly-levied tax increase seems perfectly acceptable when carried out in a democratic fashion such as this. 
 
Finally, about the golf course, I would offer up one other point--what is the replacement cost of a 36-hole golf course vs. the replacement cost of sunset pool?  I don't like having the golf course operate at a deficit, but it would be a lot cheaper to dig another hole in the ground someday than it would be to build another golf course if the city wishes to do so.  And correct me if I'm wrong on this, but doesn't the golf course "buy" water from the city?  I want to look into this further as well, but I'm not certain that the golf course is a true drain on cash the same way that the pool was/is--it only operated at a loss because it purchased city water, and it has only been in the red for a few years recently.  I would be all in favor of some other private organization operating Sunset if they so desired--the city lease it out for $1/year--but if no one wants to do then at some point you have to conclude that the demand just isn't there.  Unfortunate, but true. 


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"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK


Posted By: johnnyp26
Date Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 4:53pm
Sorry to burst your bubble Voice of Reason, but it is 100% true.  I totally understand your skepticism.  There were no strings attached to any of our offers of concession.  We were told "layoffs were imminent" and we wanted to save jobs.  Then surprisingly enough, no one was laid off.  In 2010, we gave the city manager 3% of the fire budget in concessions.  Unfortunately, she did not want to negotiate with the other unions in the city.  Until the last council meeting, nobody in the city asked us for concessions this year.  We expect 0% raises.  If there is no money, why did the corrections officers get 1%?  How are there still employees getting almost $500/month car allowances and free cell phones?  You won't read about any of this in the "newly formatted" "investigative" Middletown Journal because somehow (???) positive articles about the Fire Department are rarely printed.  We worked hard on getting the Levy passed because we were told (lied to) that we would benefit from the money.  The public was promised staffing would not decrease- an absolute falsehood.  I agree with others on here...where has the money gone?  I don't believe the city "finance director" could tell you.  After his poor performance at the last Council meeting, it seems certain he doesn't know much.  He couldn't answer any of Mr. Picard's questions.  That has to raise some eyebrows.  He made a $2 million "mistake" a couple years ago and now they pay a consulting firm to "check" his work.  I will stop ranting now....sorry!


Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 5:13pm
johnnyp26--I am glad you posted in response to my comments, but I would have another question or two for you: Why would the fire department's offer of a 3% concession be rebutted because Gilleland didn't want to negotiate with the other unions?  What I'm asking is, why would she have to negotiate with the other unions in order to accept the FD's offer?  I don't know about the corrections 1% is all about but  I would assume that it was because they had a raise in their contracts for this year, or perhaps they had taken smaller raises in previous years. 
 
As far as the car allowances and cell phones--who gets these?  I don't doubt that some employees get them, but if their job requires them to drive a great deal and be out on the road then a car allowance and cell phone makes perfect sense.  Car allowances are often cheaper than having to purchase, maintain, and insure a vehicle on behalf of an employee, so it may actually be a savings. 
 
What is the $2M mistake by the finance director to which you're referring?  And what is the consulting firm referenced above? 
 
In a more general sense, many of the issues highlighted here speak to the fundamental problem of having government employees unionized--it creates and "us" vs. "them" mentality.  Except that the "them" are the taxpayers and their elected leadership (or other government unions-i.e., corrections officers), and the leadership's chosen managers. 
 
I think there was a time and place when unions made sense, such as in the early 20th century when they fought for better wages and safer working conditions against for-profit corporations.  But now that unions, in a desperate bid to fund themselves, have turned largely to government workers for their dues after making many unionized corporations un-competitive, we reap the results and things get ugly when times are tough, as they certainly are now. 


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"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK


Posted By: DuaneGordon
Date Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 6:14pm

As a resident of South Main Street, I’ve been in many (but not all) meetings over the past several months leading up to the submission of our neighborhood petition, so I know a great deal about the project and hopefully can answer some of the questions that have been raised here.

 

First, I don’t believe we’re getting actual gas-powered lights, as has been implied. Nor are we getting any other kind of lighting that should be dimmer than the existing lights. The plan, as I understand it, is to extend a similar type of lighting as is currently installed along Central Avenue and along North Main Street south onto South Main Street to remain consistent with the theme the city has determined is most appropriate for this area. Now, I could be wrong – but that’s what I was told in the meetings I attended. My understanding is they’re referring to that type of electric lighting and just calling it “gas light replica type lighting” because the shape and design of the lights are supposed to appear similar to the general exterior of old time gas lights even though they’re bright, modern electric lights. Anyone who has walked down Central or North Main at night can attest that these lights put out just as much, if not more, illumination as the aging regular-style lights on any other street in the city. They also put out light in a wider, more circular pattern (as opposed to the current style light that typically shines straight down and leaves darker spaces between each light).

 

Secondly, there should not be higher maintenance and utility costs. The existing lights on the street are decades old, and many advances in electric technology have been made in that time. Those improvements should make the new lights less expensive to maintain and operate than the existing, old, inefficient lights. True, maintenance and utility usage costs are borne by all taxpayers of the city, just as they are with any street light anywhere in the city, but I would expect the taxpayer should actually see LOWER costs as a result of new lights as opposed to what’s there now.

 

The cost to take down the existing lights, purchase the new lights, and install the new lights is being paid for by the residents of the neighborhood, not the city at large. The only exception I’m aware of is the lighting that would be placed along the Old South city park sidewalk facing South Main, which the city has estimated will cost $7,000 (or less than 15 cents per resident of the city). It was suggested at the Council meeting that this expense also be shared by the neighborhood residents as well, and the city is investigating whether it would be legal for them to do that.

 

If you review the actual petition in the city workbook from the most recent meeting (on the city website for all to see), you will see who signed it and which properties were added up to reach the 63 percent of frontage on the road. You will also see that the city property, its 250 feet of frontage on Old South Park, was not counted toward that percentage. The city’s property was removed from the total completely, I assume because the city is the decider in whether or not to approve the petition, so it should not be a party to the petition as a yes or a no. Had it been included as NOT signing the petition, though, the total would have been 60.5 percent of road frontage signed in favor of the lighting, still above the minimum 60 percent for the city to accept it under the law.  And really, not all of the non-signers were “no” votes in the other 37 percent – very, very few actually said no, and the rest simply did not respond or could not be reached. Although residents had been working on this for quite a while and had discussions with city officials about the proper procedures for months, the neighborhood association had to wait for the proper wording of the petition from the appropriate city department and received the final version with literally only a few days to catch up with as many owners as possible to get it signed before it needed to be submitted due to the planned construction schedule for the road project, and the volunteers who canvassed the neighborhood were unable to reach every person in that short time frame. Personally, I was contacted about signing it three or four days before it was due and was not home at the time they stopped by, so I wasn’t able to catch up with a canvasser to actually sign it until the day before it was due.

 

The number of homes and businesses in the neighborhood (not counting the city property) are made up of roughly 70 percent owners who live in the neighborhood and 30 percent absentee landlords – this is number of structures, not the road frontage figure the petition required. Of resident owners, about 70 percent signed the petition in favor of the lighting. Of absentee landlords, only about 15 percent signed the petition. I think that’s significant, as these numbers showed that the people who actually live in the neighborhood want the improvement by an overwhelming majority and that even some of the absentee landlords agreed this would be an improvement for their properties they support personally funding.

 

If any neighborhood in the city wished to undertake the same project – seek the 60 percent “supermajority” of property owners to approve installing new lights and pay for it themselves rather than relying on the support of taxpayers citywide  – then they’re welcome to do the same. Many people on these pages have advocated strongly for personal responsibility and personal investment in projects rather than government hand-outs, and that’s exactly what we are accomplishing.

 

As for the street improvements, they are justified. As much as residents of the neighborhood would like for South Main to be a quiet residential street, it is not. It is used as a major thoroughfare by those who wish to avoid the traffic lights along Verity. The simple factors of traffic count and road condition placed it at a certain ranking on the list of street projects in the city, and that ranking corresponded to a scheduling of 2011 for the work to be done. Simple as that. Much of the curb and sidewalk on the street is also being replaced at the same time, but that’s also being charged to the individual property owners whose homes each replacement abuts rather than the city’s taxpayers at large. Because our sidewalks and street will be torn up already for this project, the neighborhood chose to pursue the lighting change now so that everything could be done at the same time.



Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 8:30pm
thanx 4 your clarifications, Mr.Gordon.
Seems 2 b in order.
Hey--the owners take excellent care of their properties in that area, and seem to be functionally organized.
 
Let 'em eat cake!!


Posted By: AKBobby
Date Posted: Jun 24 2011 at 11:57pm
Originally posted by johnnyp26 johnnyp26 wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble Voice of Reason, but it is 100% true.  I totally understand your skepticism.  There were no strings attached to any of our offers of concession.  We were told "layoffs were imminent" and we wanted to save jobs.  Then surprisingly enough, no one was laid off.  In 2010, we gave the city manager 3% of the fire budget in concessions.  Unfortunately, she did not want to negotiate with the other unions in the city.  Until the last council meeting, nobody in the city asked us for concessions this year.  We expect 0% raises.  If there is no money, why did the corrections officers get 1%?  How are there still employees getting almost $500/month car allowances and free cell phones?  You won't read about any of this in the "newly formatted" "investigative" Middletown Journal because somehow (???) positive articles about the Fire Department are rarely printed.  We worked hard on getting the Levy passed because we were told (lied to) that we would benefit from the money.  The public was promised staffing would not decrease- an absolute falsehood.  I agree with others on here...where has the money gone?  I don't believe the city "finance director" could tell you.  After his poor performance at the last Council meeting, it seems certain he doesn't know much.  He couldn't answer any of Mr. Picard's questions.  That has to raise some eyebrows.  He made a $2 million "mistake" a couple years ago and now they pay a consulting firm to "check" his work.  I will stop ranting now....sorry!


I talked to one of the sergeants at mpd after reading this. Nobody there gets a car allowance and nobody gets free cell phones. They either have to pay for personal calls or they get a monthly reiumbursement of about 30% of the whole bill. I will see one of my friends at city garage tomorrow at bowling so I'll ask him what's up with theirs.

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AK - What is going on with that?


Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Jun 25 2011 at 10:03am
Some Observations and Questions;

1) Middletown's population has dropped 5.6% between 2000 & 2010.

2) Middletown now has 1 section 8 voucher for every 29 residents. The highest concentration per capita, I have found in the United States even higher than New York City.

3) Public Safety wages have risen faster than any wage in Middletown. Police and Fire wages were at approximately 48-52% above the CPI while non-union wages at City Hall were right at the CPI level.

4) As far as the Public safety levy goes, I am currently a No Vote. I may consider a Yes Vote if the Unions give serious concessions to wages and payment of their health care. The Concessions must be serious and not just "We will cut our uniform allowance or return a day of vacation".

5) Is Cincinnati State still in play, or is the deal falling through?

6) I hear the new restaurant downtown is on life support.

7) Is it true that The Art Center downtown has decided not to look like an Auto Parts Center on the outside?

8) What is the reason for the workshop upstairs by Council if they are going to televise it on TV anyways?

9) It appears that there has been no decrease in section 8 vouchers in use in Middletown by this summer as was stated last summer.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 25 2011 at 11:55pm
Pacman, I certainly hope your health and recovery is going smoothly and the road to recovery will be swift and meaningful. Welcome back, sorely missed with your analysis.
 
Let me piggyback off your list if I may, and answer at least 5. While not having direct access to Cincinnati State's President, I do have access to a few senior administrative officers. What I have heard repeatedly is concern about Middletown's identity, and i that is a + or - for them, ie...a metro, urban college trying to help an impoverished urban plighted area. With the current budget constraints, as the new fiscal year for CS begins in July, the word is it will be next July 2012 if anything is done, and if anything is brought to Middletown, the probability is a partership with an existing school already having rooms that cn be shared/ leveraged. That may be Greentree as sj stated in another thread.
 
Now, adding my list:
 
10) Why is the city of Middletown bailing out the Senior Citizens Center when they can't raise their membership through funds?
 
11) Is there legal recourse available in a class action suit associated with the city ruining Middletown by adding so much Section 8 it is negatively impacted the school system and its reputation and property values fir residents who have seen valuation plunge at least 30% > than the national average?   


Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Jun 26 2011 at 1:22am

Answer:  No leadership, who wants to deal with Her?



Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jun 26 2011 at 8:56am
Nice to have you back Pac!


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 3:25am

Voice:

Please excuse my delay in responding to your post of 24 Jun 2011 at 4:26pm. I’ve had some other matters that needed attention.

Regarding the Public Safety Levy funds: As you continue digging, I’m sure you will find three things:

  1. Money from the Public Safety Levy has been directed to other areas;
  2. A 3% increase of the TOTAL police and fire budget (which includes much more than just wages), including compounding, for the FIVE years of the existing levy equals a total of less than $3.5 million, yet the levy for those five years is on track to bring in a total of over $14 million. Here we are in only the third year and City Hall is saying we must lay off police and fire from the 2008 level. What happened to the money??
  3. As with the “Ohio State Lottery money goes to education” (which was sold as being “additive” to solve our education funding woes), you will find that the Public Safety Levy funds were NOT “added” to the Public Safety budget, but were “substituted for dollars that were already there so that those dollars could be used for other risky schemes. It’s nothing more than the old “Shell Game”.

Next, as far as the longer ambulance runs to your house: I may be off base speaking of “your house” literally, since I have no idea where you live, but it is a safe bet that if “your house” is anywhere (approximately) west of Breiel, and it is determined that the ambulance must take you to the ER, it will take longer, to get to Atrium than to the old hospital location. Granted, this has to do with the new location of the hospital, but reducing the number of fire stations with manned ambulances can only exacerbate the situation.

As far as sending a fire engine as well as an ambulance on each emergency run, I must admit that I, too, struggle with that concept, so I cannot argue in favor of the practice. I can say that, on occasion, I have had firefighters explain it to me during informal face-to-face discussions, and it made sense. But later, I could not replicate these explanations to others in the same way. Poor memory on my part??? Probably. However, I do believe that there are other cities throughout the USA that have only one unit with two people (both EMTs) respond to emergency medical calls, but I cannot cite facts or figures right now. Perhaps one of our firefighter poster friends can help???

Likewise, I cannot cite facts and figures for the firefighters vs. police vs. nurses scheduling approach, yet I do understand the basic difference in the type of services that the firefighters supply as opposed to the others. Intuitively, the way it is done here in Middletown seems to me to be a good way to have firefighters and EMTs ready to respond, and to respond in the shortest time, to any emergency.

Next, I re-read the portion of your post that I incorrectly thought made a safety comparison between “2 or 3 more cops and firefighters on the payroll” and “installing more lights”. I simply erred in making that inference. I was wrong, and I apologize. I assure you that it was an honest mistake, and was certainly unintentional.

Next, the issue of who will pay, and who should pay, for the olde tyme street lights! First, if I read and heard the proceedings of the last council meeting correctly, ALL of the taxpayers of the City of Middletown will be contributing to the cost of the olde tyme street lights. Next, perhaps I should have been more specific: my objection is to paying for DECORATIVE lamp posts, globes, etc., where existing street lamps already are in place meeting city standards. I see this as no different than any other DECORATIVE item. For more on this, please see my reply to Mr. Duane Gordon.

Lastly, regarding the Weatherwax vs. Sunset Pool issue, please note that I didn’t disagree with you on the issues. I merely pointed out some City Hall hypocrisy related to the subject.



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 3:36am

Mr. Gordon:

Thank you for attempting to clear up some of the questions that have been raised. Perhaps you will be so kind as to clear up a few more issues???

First, you state that “to extend a similar type of lighting as is currently installed along Central Avenue and along North Main Street south onto South Main Street to remain consistent with the theme the city has determined is most appropriate for this area.” It is my understanding that the latest “theme the city has determined is most appropriate” is “junque chic”!!! So, if 60% or more of the residents along South Main Street vote that everyone in their neighborhood should have a junk auto hood siding façade on the Main Street face of their structures, should the remainder of the taxpayers in the city be forced to subsidize that also??? What about the percentage of neighborhood residents who don’t want such facades??? Should they be forced to pay for and install them anyway, just to keep the neighborhood uniform??? What if 60% of the residents decide that a nice, chrome hubcap, decorative fence would go nicely with the junk auto theme??? Should it be a de rigueur, taxpayer subsidized addition??? Should YOU be forced to add these touches to YOUR property at YOUR expense even if YOU are in the minority??? The omnipotent Historic Commission has already certified this “junque chic” as “appropriate”, so votes don’t always go your way, and the precedent has already been set.

Next you mention “any neighborhood in the city” could do the same thing, but I doubt that!!! First, I doubt the legality of this petition. Nowhere within Section 727 of the Ohio Revised Code (the Section cited as the controlling legal authority) are DECORATIVE items of ANY description mentioned. “Lighting” is mentioned as an appropriate and allowable item to be petitioned, but S. Main Street already has lighting, and I would not be objecting if the residents were claiming that lighting was inadequate, but that is not the claim. You don’t want lights--you want decorative lampposts and decorative globes. I simply believe that decorative items should be at the expense of the individual property owners who desire them. I would NEVER expect YOU to pay for a decorative lamppost in front of MY house!!! Why do YOU expect me to help pay for one in front of yours??? Also, Mr. Kohler has no interest in most neighborhoods of the city, to expedite such petitions.

Next, you contend that this section of roadway serves as a “major thoroughfare”!!! If this is true, then it should have “light standards (posts)” consistent with a “major thoroughfare” and not with a quaint, quiet, olde tyme neighborhood.  You cannot have it both ways, Sir.  It cannot be a "major thoroughfare" when you want it paved at no cost to the residents ahead of other streets in town, but a "quaint, sleepy neighborhood" when you want the rest of us to help pay for your decorative lampposts and globes, resembling olde tyme gaslights.  And modern streetlamps will be no less incongruent to your neighborhood's "theme" than the junk auto hoods will be to the olde tyme lampposts downtown!!!

Yes, Mr. Gordon, many on this forum do advocate for personal responsibility, and we would never ask you to pay for decorative items in our neighborhoods. We also believe that there are many roads in the city that are just as much “major thoroughfares” as S. Main between Second and Ninth that are in worse shape, but if the residents abutting those thoroughfares want them paved, they will have to foot the bill for this basic infrastructure themselves. You and the “friends of City Hall” on South Main, are getting your street paved fully at taxpayer expense, even though it will likely be torn up to replace the combined sewer system in the near future.

The least that you people could do is pay for the decorative lampposts and accoutrements for yourselves.



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 4:28am

As long as Kohler’s name has come up, consider this from the minutes of a recent Historic Commission meeting:

“Marty will have a case coming up regarding his proposed walkway from his house to the public sidewalk as well as some other projects. Since neither Marty nor I would be allowed to participate in the actual case, Marty has retained a historic preservation consultant to represent him and staff on this case. The consultant, Steve Gordon, formerly of the Ohio Historic Preservation Office, is available May 19th.”

Pretty cool, huh??? The same consultant represents Marty AND the City staff!!! Nah--no conflict there, is there??? And I wonder who paid the consultant’s fee???

This reminds me of a case a few years back wherein Steve Huesman (while he was interim City Manager) represented Kohler in front of one of the City boards. Also clearly a conflict of interest.



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: DuaneGordon
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 1:25pm

Mr. Presta, I’d really like to know exactly what costs you think you’ll be paying to subsidize these lights because I believe you must have misheard or misread the proceedings from the last Council meeting. “I simply believe that decorative items should be at the expense of the individual property owners who desire them. . . The least that you people could do is pay for the decorative lampposts and accoutrements for yourselves,” you say. Well, as I stated before, ALL direct expenses for the lighting project are being paid for completely and solely by the property owners in the neighborhood. We are the only ones on whose tax bills it will appear. The assessment does not hit YOUR property tax bill. The only caveat to that is because Old South Park, which represents about 3 percent of the road frontage involved, is owned by all taxpayers of the city, that one small area is to be paid for by the public from the general fund at a price of about a penny a year per resident for the 10-year period of the assessment. Any other lighting that is replaced in any other park throughout the city would be subject to the same requirement (and even for that part, the neighborhood is working with the city to see if there is way for us to assist with that cost, too).

 

Alternately, if you are arguing hypothetically like you were a property owner within the South Main Historic District who is opposed to the lighting and will be subject to the direct assessment, then you would have a point. That is more of a philosophical question about where you draw the line. Yes, I can see the unfairness in requiring my neighbor who is opposed to the lighting pay for it, but if this is approved my neighbor will be getting a light placed in front of their house even though they don’t want it, and they will benefit from its use even though they don’t want it, so they are required to pay for it. You could argue about should it be a simple majority of 50 percent, should it be 60 percent, should it be 80 percent, should it be 100 percent? As one of the previous posters suggested, it’s the same thing with levies: should the 49 percent who voted against the library levy last year be allowed to exempt themselves and not pay the tax? The law says they cannot. The state legislature decided once a neighborhood gets 60 percent of the owners of the frontage in the impacted area in favor of it, the city has the authority to assess the cost to everyone in that neighborhood. You should lobby your state representative and senator if you’d like that law changed, because that’s their prerogative. A majority of homeowners in our neighborhood is simply making use of the existing law.

 

To answer your questions: 1. I hope you’re being hyperbolic with your example of the junk auto theme, because first I doubt anywhere in the city you’d get more than a handful of residents to sign a petition for such an addition; secondly, I would expect the city council members to have enough judgment to deny their request – the 60 percent rule doesn’t require the city to APPROVE it (they still haven’t given final approval to our request), it just requires them to CONSIDER the request and decide yes or no; third; if they did it, the assessment would be just like our proposed one is and only impact the tax bills of the residents of that neighborhood and not the city at large; and finally, the point would be moot because the law only allows such assessments for items in the right-of-way, and placing an auto hood on a home or a fence on the private property would not be within the right-of-way. 2. On the section of state code, as you correctly state, it allows for the assessment of a levy for a neighborhood to cover “lighting.” However, the code does not restrict it beyond the word “lighting.” You seem to be of the opinion that the law doesn’t allow for it to cover replacement or upgraded lighting once lighting has already been installed. Nothing in the code says it may not be used for that purpose. And, once again, we are not asking YOU to pay for it. These items are being paid for by the PROPERTY OWNERS ALONG SOUTH MAIN. Your assertion that you are subsidizing them is just plain wrong. 3. The lighting will be proper for the street. In fact, it will be more appropriate, as the street is currently lit not as the thoroughfare it is but rather as a quiet, lazy, infrequently-traveled residential street. As I noted, the lighting down Central (a similar thoroughfare with an even higher traffic count) using this style of lights is superior to the existing lighting down Main and more appropriate for a street of this type than  the existing lights. So, yes, brighter, improved lighting like on Central is more appropriate for a street with this degree of traffic.



Posted By: LMAO
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 1:48pm
Mr.Gordon you are so wrong.We the taxpayers will have to foot the bill For you new lighting.So take your B.S.back to the city you have a better chance in them believing you then us.Once a liar always a liar.Big%20smile
 
 


Posted By: DuaneGordon
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 3:14pm
LMAO -- Are you calling me a liar? Or are you calling the city a liar? On the latter, I wouldn't debate, because I find it very hard to trust any politician myself. Smile However, if you're referring to me personally, I'd challenge you to name any single instance where I have ever lied to the public. But back to the subject at hand, where are you getting that the taxpayers will have to foot the bill other than your imagination? I've seen the assessment estimates. They only impact the properties on South Main. We had a very lengthy debate in my own household over whether or not we were going to sign the petition and support it or not because our personal assessment to pay for this was going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $3,500, if I remember correctly from the estimates. That's a lot of money and it's on top of the five-year assessment for sidewalks and curb that is going to be placed on my taxes as well, so it was a difficult decision to make. But we are paying for it, not you.


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 4:16pm
interesting discussion
many good points coming from everywhere, and easy to understand everyone's position
 
If I lived in the S Main hysterical district, I would clearly support this issue.
It would showcase my property(which is close to the street) and create an ambiance that may increase the area image and property values in an area where most properties are well-maintained. Plus these NEW lights will be more attractive than the old poles in operation currently.  Perfect timing to make the change.
 
If I lived elsewhere in Middletown, I would wonder why this street is getting re-done, when it is in no way one of the most in-need roadway surfaces. I would wonder why this lighting demand gets such attention and quick consideration. I would wonder whether we will honestly be lighting the busy thoroughfare, or showcasing the real estate. Should we expect the same from the Highland district when it coincidentally gets it's emergency repaving(while also far from the most needed roadway--and it is hardly a main thoroughfare)?
 
Owners on S Main are very proud of their homes, as they should be.
People on my street are also very proud of their homes.
Same for virtually every neighborhood.
On my tstreet the properties are equal or greater in value and functionality, yet my street is in FAR worse condition--so is the street lamping.
Yet if "we" want road improvement, we must first petition, then if successful, foot the repair bill ourselves. hmmm
Everyone thinks that their home and neighborhood is special. Still--all areas are only special to their residents. They are very un-important to others residing in other areas.
 
People are honestly tired of the same small select neighborhood areas recieving special consideration, benefits and attention. In these tough times, everyone needs their share of breaks and consideration. More so the needy than the not-as-needy.
 
S Main is a major roadway and should be treated as such. The lighting of the actual STREET is paramount. If you want your home decoratively lit, do it yourself(I realize that this project is attempting to do both--can it really work?).
 
The ornamental lighting also is an extention of what is currently lining Central Ave in that area. If this area is to add similar lamping, then it should probably be extended all the way from the Central Ave situation, and also north on Main to Reinhartz.. Why have a break in the pattern? Imo the 63% approving property owners should also pay for the poles,lamping and construction along the Old South Park area, since it is their initiated project. As Mr.Gordon mentions, it is only approx.$7,000+ in expense, and a few pennies for maintenence/power.
 
I expect this to be approved unanimously as an emergency(why?)by Council with little to no discussion.
One NO vote would kill the project.
 
jmo


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 4:22pm
I see no problem with your old tyme light upgrades Mr. Gordon. If you are footing the bill and it doesn't affect any property owners outside the S. Main St. area, shouldn't be a problem for the rest of us. No one should have to pay to have someone else's neighborhood upgraded. Common areas only should be shared by all. Seems fair enough. I do believe, however, that the city leaders have taken tax money meant for everyone's benefit and channeled it to benefit a few friends of the city. You can understand the distrust of the city from the citizens.

I have a concern involving our Planning DIErector though. If the rumor is true that Marty Kohler is gone from the city payroll in the coming days, and he lives in your area, wonder how ole Marty is going to continue his old tyme saga renovating his home? Wonder why he is retaining a "historic consultant" as reported in these forum pages? Wonder if he's going to be around to enjoy those old tyme street lights? Gonna lose his income isn't he? If true, sad. Sad indeed.


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 4:48pm
Dunno Vet.
Mr.K has made a showplace of a property that was prior an old persons' prison.
My grandmother lived there unfortunately. I can still feel the guilt I experienced when visiting her(and her unhappiness in her final years of a glorious life).
Mr.K improved the property with a lot of his own hard work(+ maybe a little well-connected fed $$?)
 
I will be very unhappy if he is removed from city Admin.
It will be a huge community loss.
Unlike many others in charge who drive in and out everyday, Mr.K is from here and has made a serious investment in hard work time and $$ to call this city his home(and hopefully it will always be his home).
 
Mr.K knows more about the workings of this entire city than the rest of Admin combined.
Do I agree with his direction and philosophy?
Often yes--more often no.
Still he is the best man for the job and the city.
If I was mayor(think about that one!), I would have Mr.K as a key advisor and possibly city manager(under my tight  control). When I think of the others in the ivory tower plying their will on the citizens, it makes me shudder. If you think things are rough and unfair now, just wait. You will see!


Posted By: DuaneGordon
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 5:20pm
Thanks, spiderjohn and Vet. 
 
On the lights, the existing decorative lights do extend from Central north to Rienhartz on North Main, so that suggestion was accomplished by the city years ago.
 
They also will not light most of the homes themselves (many, mine included, are too far off the road to actually receive illumination from these lights). They will light the pavement and the sidewalks (currently, many of the decades-old lights in the neighborhood only light the pavement, which makes the sidewalks dark and dangerous at night, and the lights also have long spaces between them that result in sections of dark pavement with no light, problems we hope to correct with the new lights being properly spaced, with their more circular light pattern illuminating both the street and the sidewalk).
 
My understanding from residents who've lived here a lot longer than I have, is the city has been approached time and time again over about the past 35 years on the substandard lighting in the neighborhood, and each time residents were told they have to wait until the street is repaved because the street would have to be torn up to put the new lights in. The speed is because residents weren't notified that our street was coming up on the streets program until just a few months before they were to start work. (Apparently, it's been on the list for a while, but no one told us it was on there until almost too late to do anything.) We then had to wait four months for the city to get the proper legal wording back to us for the petition, which left a very short time frame to get the petition signed and submitted so that the Council could consider whether or not to approve the lights before the street is torn up and put back together again, which would prevent the light installation until the next time it's repaved in another 40 years or so.
 
I don't expect you'll hear anything from Highlands because my understanding is they had somewhat similar lighting installed several years ago. I do not know whether that was at general taxpayer expense or through the neighborhood assessment as we're doing.
 
South Main Street hasn't been repaved in my lifetime. I mean it. It literally has not been repaved since before I was born. Name me another street in the city with a nearly 10,000 cars-per-day traffic count that has gone that long without repaving. Most of the city's comparable north-south cooridors with similar traffic counts (Breiel, University, Shafor, Sutphin) all have been repaved since I moved here three and a half years ago, and now it's South Main's turn. I know there are many, many streets in the city in worse condition, but they simply don't have anywhere near the traffic as North Main, and you have to allocate your very limited local street dollars to those places where the largest number of people receive the greatest benefit. It's as simple as that. If it was due to the planning director and the mayor and the retired Fenwick principal living there, it would have been repaved years ago.


Posted By: johnnyp26
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 6:14pm
Well, Voice of Reason, those are all great questions for the city manager.  I can only attest to the fact that the offers were made and not accepted.  I gave you the answer she gave us.  It was and still is ridiculous.  Corrections just negotiated their contract, so it is a new one.  I only bring that issue up to point out that despite cries of "no money", they are still giving out raises.  As far as car allowances, I don't have a confirmed number of recipients.  I do know that there is a pool of cars that are available for those who need one- not your average city worker.  If say, one of those people actually needed a car to do city work (which rarely happens), all they have to do is get the keys for one of the pool vehicles.  Taxpayers pay for the purchase, fuel, insurance, and maintenance for the vehicles that sit more often than not.  Here is an example of what actually happens:  a department head gets almost $500 vehicle allowance.  Same department head is required to attend meetings during "business hours" and after.  Same department head drives to the city, picks up a city vehicle and drives to said meetings.  Now, tell me that isn't fat to be cut!  If you have to lay off employees, perks like cars and cell phones should be cut first.
 
As far as the $2 million mistake, you'll have to look that up.  I won't give you all of the answers.  Go back through Council meeting minutes.  It's public record.
 
As far as Unions go, do you think we don't pay taxes????  Are you serious?  If you worked for the city, your rosy view would tarnish.  We have lost a lot while the city squandered money elsewhere.  There are standards for the type of equipment we use.  We have to fight to get everything we get: would you go into a burning building with subpar gear?  Our firefighter union is just that- it fights for firefighter issues.  We don't share money with other unions public or private.  We are under the umbrella of the AFL-CIO.
The problem is not enough homework gets done and people only hear what the city wants them to hear, via the Journal or controlled "news" releases.  That info is usually not even half the story and filled with lies.  Why would they print in the "newspaper" that we only made 8915 runs last year when we actually made 10,200 runs.  Gee, I don't know....BECAUSE IT DISCREDITS US!!!!!!! 
Looking forward to any response.  Thanks.


Posted By: johnnyp26
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 6:35pm
Mr. Presta,
I can help with the firetruck issue that seems to confound many citizens.  All but 3 Middletown Firefighters are paramedics.  Firefighters on the engines assist the firefighters on the ambulances.  We help carry patients (any of you are welcome to come help us carry patients down 3 flights of stairs, or through houses filled with junk, bugs, dog feces, etc., but I digress....Wink)  We also help with patient care. The quicker we can start care can make a huge difference in the recovery of most patients. 
2 engines carry medical equipment and AEDs.  Our other 2 engines are "ALS engines".  They carry the same drug bags and heart monitors that our ambulances carry.  The thought process is that when all of the ambulances are out, the engine companies can start taking care of the patient.  This type of set-up occurs throughout the United States.
Too often people call for help but we don't have an ambulance available.  Our engine companies are trained and equipped to start care while waiting for an out of town ambulance. 
Oh yeah, it also keeps firefighters on FIREtrucks in case there is a FIRE, which, contrary to what the city wants you to believe, still happen.
Don't ever hesitate to stop by a firehouse in town and ask questions, we have nothing to hide.  You will get the straight scoop from the ones actually doing the job.  We can also show you what we carry and what our capabilities are.
Thanks!


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 6:38pm

Mr. Gordon:

Whether it is a few cents or a few million dollars (I believe that the “approx.$7,000+” figure that Spiderjohn mentioned is correct), there is no valid reason for the rest of the taxpayers of the city to pay to decorate your neighborhood the way that you an your neighbors, and only you nad your neighbors, want it decorated.

I never stated that there was to be any amount of “assessment” that will “hit MY tax bill”, but there is a portion of the cost of the decorative lampposts and globes in excess of standard street lighting that will be borne by the rest of the taxpayers. This is WRONG. It is especially wrong in these trying economic times, while the taxpayers are being told that more basic city services will be cut, that we are also being told that we must pay for this extra perk for the residents of South Main Street.

Yes, property owners on a street are permitted by ORC 727 to petition for “lighting”. Does this mean that you can petition for a different style of decorative lampposts next year if you grow tired of this décor, or if a new, trendy design comes down the pike??? Of course not!!! They are likewise permitted to petition for street “paving”, but that does not give them the right to stipulate that their street be paved with cobblestones, or with gold, or even with Portland cement concrete pavement!!!

Of course I resort to hyperbole, but since you still don’t seem to get it, must I exaggerate even more???



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 6:50pm
Johnny,
Thank you for your help in trying to better understand this issue.
I have, indeed, stopped by a station in the past (it's been a couple of years--perhaps it's time for another visit) and I must say that I was warmly recieved and that the firefighters on duty patiently tried to answer every question that I asked.
 
Note to anyone who visits a fire station:  Be certain that you do NOT park in a manner that BLOCKS the equipment should they need to respond to a call while you are there!!! 
 


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 7:05pm
Mr. Gordon:
You state:
"I hope you’re being hyperbolic with your example of the junk auto theme, because first I doubt anywhere in the city you’d get more than a handful of residents to sign a petition for such an addition; secondly, I would expect the city council members to have enough judgment to deny their request – the 60 percent rule doesn’t require the city to APPROVE it..."
I seem to recall both the Historic Commission AND City Council voting to APPROVE exactly that recently!!!  I'm surprised that you don't remember.  Perhaps some of your neighbors who were members of one of those two august bodies can fill you in on the details!!!
 
Perhaps something similar CAN happen in your neighborhood!!!  The precedent has been set, and some of YOUR neighbors voted IN FAVOR of it!!!  I doubt that it would pass in my neighborhood.
 


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 7:17pm
By the way, Mr. Gordon, City Council and the Historic Commission approved the junk auto theme smack dab in an area where there are existing olde tyme faux gas street lights and lampposts!!!  Apparently, they think these two items go together.  Perhaps you and your neighbors better be careful what you ask for, for as they say, "There is no accounting for taste"!!!

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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by DuaneGordon DuaneGordon wrote:

Mr. Presta,  I hope you’re being hyperbolic

Sorry, but in my old age I am getting more "pear-shaped"!!! LOL LOL LOL



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: LMAO
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 8:17pm
Originally posted by DuaneGordon DuaneGordon wrote:

LMAO -- Are you calling me a liar? Or are you calling the city a liar? On the latter, I wouldn't debate, because I find it very hard to trust any politician myself. Smile However, if you're referring to me personally, I'd challenge you to name any single instance where I have ever lied to the public. But back to the subject at hand, where are you getting that the taxpayers will have to foot the bill other than your imagination? I've seen the assessment estimates. They only impact the properties on South Main. We had a very lengthy debate in my own household over whether or not we were going to sign the petition and support it or not because our personal assessment to pay for this was going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $3,500, if I remember correctly from the estimates. That's a lot of money and it's on top of the five-year assessment for sidewalks and curb that is going to be placed on my taxes as well, so it was a difficult decision to make. But we are paying for it, not you.
Not calling you a liar but please explain to me when one of these lights happen to malfuntion who will be maintaining them? The city? If so who do you think pays those employees salaries? I think that because you all have Sir Kohler and Sir Mullethead living on south main that south main residents are getting special treatmeant. Last time I checked I was being charged for a street light that is 2 blocks away from me which I dont think is fair but I have to.There is no one(even you) that can tell me  there isnt going to be a cost to other taxpayers of this fine city so you people can have your fancy lights.Smile


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 8:38pm
johnnyp26- I am one of the biggest complainers/critics on this forum concerning council, the city building personnel, the schools dismal performance, and all that is wrong with this town.

However, I will be the first to say that the squad and fire personnel in this town are top notch IMO. I had this discussion with ashkicker, another firefighter, on this forum. Since you recently appeared here, I will re-state that you and the squad people are one bright spot in a town with few bright spots to offer.

My wife had a stroke in Oct. 2009. Since then, she has had 5 seizures that have required the 911 call and the squad response to our house. Seizures are not a pleasant thing to witness. Each time, you think your loved one is dying. The call was made. The gurney was brought in, she was stabilized and transported each time to the emergency room where they proceeded to treat her and contact the neurologist.

You may have been one of the fine people that have helped us out in our time of need. For that, I sincerely thank you. In our case, we depend on people like you to prevent a huge loss for our family. Those who have never needed your service have not seen you people in action. I have. If the critics were in my position, I'm sure they would concur with my high regard for your efforts. Keep up the good work. It is appreciated by the people who need the help.


Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 8:44pm
Clap I could not agree more Vet! Imagine that? You and I agree on both you are a complainer and about the fire dept! My daughter had a single car accident a year ago on Brieil. The squad was awesome. Their caring attitude was more than I expected! The fire dept is a wonderful bunch of folks Thumbs%20Up Oh Vet, prayers for your wife I hope all is well!


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 8:50pm
Oh Vet, prayers for your wife I hope all is well!

What a nice thing to say. Thank you for that.

Sometimes, even those on opposing sides of debates find some common ground, don't we? It's alright though. Sometimes I learn from opposing viewpoints too as there is information introduced that I was not aware of.


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 9:49pm
Hey Mike--the $7,000 cost estimate for the Olde Southe Parke lighting came from Mr.Duritsch. I only repeated his quote, so you can assume the $7,000 is on the low end. The city may well crush a sewer pipe, have a flood or something else to take the cost well over another million $$$. And we know who would be on the hook then. The city wiggles out of every other payment obligation--the can easily wiggle out of this one in many ways. Any other organization from any other part of town outside the chosen zone with the bottomless money pit would be blown off and denied without hesitation. Should I remind everyone of the Supthin St.debacle, the bike path fix(still a long way from resolution and final cost figure), the new road dig-ups on N University, the roadway collapse on N University up in the MU-M area, the hydraulic canal, the impending sewer issues along N Main? The list is longer...Do you really think that the S Main St repair job will be a quick smooth process? Just think back to the way the poor people and businesses along S Supthin were treated and strung along. Council made every excuse in the world without caring. Mr.Picard(ward rep) was absolutely useless and aloof. 
 
Mr.Gordon--thank you for your time and sincere answers.  You wanted this project, so you can spare us the whining about the costs associated. As our mayor would say--only so many pizzas per month(where does he get his pizzas?). Welcome to our world of being screwed by the current version of our city govt. Though Mr.Adkins, Mr.K, Ms.G or Mr.Landen will probably find some hidden cash in some forgotten "mothballed" fund to pay your share and the eventual cost and over-runs. You be-little Mike's comments about the car hoods, yet we all know that the situation was quickly approved by every organization imaginable, whether they were involved or not. Simply falling over each other to be the voice to grant Mr.Verdin whatever artistic license he desired(no matter how ridiculous). Did we actually order and pay for those car hoods? If so--where are they? lol
 
 
The beauty found in this situation and discussion is that eveyone pursuing every angle seriously cares about their property, their neighborhood, and this community. We simply have to find a way to join together to work constructiely and trusting on EVERYTHING. It is probably those that don't care enough to get involved and to communicate that we should worry about.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 27 2011 at 11:31pm
sj has zeroed in on this situation and nailed it. The city situation and those in the city getting screwed by the utter incompetence of years of being reactive and playing catch-up has not caught up to everyone. Its like the Titantic going down within the last hour, and the poor Irish are locked by gates while women and children are supposed to be first to get to the life boats. The same situation is here in what sj so apatly nailed as the "chosen zone."
 
What the city is doing and the "chosen zone", also known as the Highland District, is treating that area like those getting first dibs on the Titantic lifeboats. The city knows precisely what it is doing...protecting that area's property valuation ahead of others. Yes, I know where Ms. G lives, and others, but MK, LM, others, live in an area they exert and leverage every ounce of power, favoritism, and croynism to lower the fall of property values when they are in free-fall every corner of Middletown, at taxpayer expense, and exquitable consideration for all residents.
 
Does anyone honestly not recognize the hypocrisy surrounding spending $500,000 on Cincinnati State and desiring to plug that into the Manchester and the Cinergy Building, when destroying so many others in town? Its straught forward, no pHD required on that chess move. It is to protect the area on Main using taxpayer money for what was hoped, prayed, visioned, an escape hatch for the residents down on Main as the crumbling came around the block. That is the sole reason for pushing Cincinnati State and taking $500,000 in cash to buy property and try to pump up the area LM, MK, others, live. The CS deal isn't about saving Middletown, adding more to educational diversity, but to create firewalls around those that know what carnage has been dropped on Middletown by city hall and council.
 
So Mr. Gordon, when throwing in the check-out cart THE MONEY PIT for C State, the Verdin project, that's nearly a MILLION in cash and reserves creating the Main Street firewall. As sj correctly stated, now the at large council will be in play in the future, allowing the city to determine who carries their water and does their bidding, the residents, analogous to Titantic sinking, will be stack ranked in importance, with deals being struck left and right hat have nothing to do with bettering the city. The C State deal and PAC fiasco was just a smoke screen to create the perimeter, the smoke screen, the fire wall, for the Main Street club.
 
Too bad the city isn't laying asphalt in my neighborhood and haven't in > 25 years, in a neighborhood of homes that once sold north of $325,000. First dibs of course go to building the fire wall for Main Street, and that's why the State and PAC deal, and shuffling of buildings in musical chair sequence, was orchestrated. We all can't be "dummy downed", and we should not be paying for the firewall on Main. The idea of course, was there would be some college profs, maybe a President, who would be interested in buying real estate down there, and maybe advance around the hospital. Nice area in the 1930's, but C State will focus their eyes out by the highway of they do anything.
 
Personally, I find the area across the bridge in Franklin on the Carlise side, to be more appealing, with the Harding museum and the river flowing. As one of the Board members at C State said, "why are we buying or leasing a musuem"? Finally, as for traffic, the speed flow is not 20 mph, and that street takes little abuse, and is not a heavily traveled area. I still don't comprehend why street lights aren't included in the money the city already got from the public safety levy? 
 
In my opinion,      
     


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 28 2011 at 3:57am

Mr. Gordon:

There is one more point with which I disagree. You stated:

“ Anyone who has walked down Central or North Main at night can attest that these lights put out just as much, if not more, illumination as the aging regular-style lights on any other street in the city.”

Perhaps you could impose on your friends at City Hall to supply the specifications of both the lights that you want installed on South Main Street and the street lights that would be installed in any other area of the city and then post that information here for all to see.

I think that you will find that on a one-to-one basis, the lights on Central do NOT put out more light. I think they just appear to put out more light because:

  1. They are much lower to the ground.
  2. They are installed much closer together. (Meaning that many MORE of these lights will have to be installed, adding to the overall monthly cost of service and maintenance to ALL of the taxpayers.)
  3. They are installed on BOTH sides of the street, not just one as with the standard street lights.

So, you see Mr. Gordon, we must look at the TOTAL number of lights, the type of lamps, and the power usage to make a valid comparison for not only the initial costs but also the ONGOING utility and maintenance costs to the taxpayers!!!



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 28 2011 at 4:42am
Acclaro,
Speaking of Cincinnati State, have you noticed that we haven't heard a word about the ongoing costs of ownership to the taxpayers for the properties supposedly acquired to accommodate Cinci State???
 
As City Hall sings the budget blues to us bagholders, we deserve to have these figures brought out into the open. 
 
Just this man's opinion!


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 28 2011 at 6:47am
lol acclaro--I agree with your assessment also.
Face it---west of PAC and Beau Verre, the former downtown area has continued it's collapse.
There is no business presence on N Main now whatsoever outside of Broadway News and MU-M graciously maintaining office space in the former Barnitz bank building(which probably isn't necessary, and only a leftover from Ms.Cowan's run with the local university. Wouldn't be surprised if Mr.Pratt eventually ends this project).
East of PAC and Beau Verre on Central???
lol though not funny at all.
 
Our mayor and city manager spearheaded the Thatcher property purchases under the guise of a strong Cincy St.presence in the area, which seems to get smaller and further off as time progresses. acclaro's "firewall" opinion seems more true every day. Valuable taxpayer $$ was spent mainly to keep these lost properties from going over to the "unworthy". But who truely are the "unworthy" in this situation? imo it has become Council and Admin.
 
The return of Mr.Husemann---can anyone shed light on the truth of this situation? Why bring him back to assist the city manager unless the main plan is for him to eventually replace her in his prior position?
When and by whom was this situation discussed and approved, or when will it be done? Obviously in executive session.


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 28 2011 at 7:14am
Maybe Kohler just needs Huesmann to represent him before a city board again, and he'll have more juice in doing so as acting Assistant City Manager??? 
 
So what if it costs the taxpayers $10K or so???  Money is no object to these folks as long as it is OPM (other people's money)!!!


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Jun 28 2011 at 7:21am
Anyone heard from Mr.Pratt, word has that the Neyer group isn't all that thrilled dealing with our our city manager.  Millions being spent in hope of revenues and we get to worry about money spent on street lamps. There isn't enough money to buy a ticket for this ride.  I 'll look forward to watching some of the Main st. residents come to the podium and ask that No taxpayers money will be involved. 


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jun 28 2011 at 8:33am

No taxpayer money involved???

How??? Standard streetlights in most neighborhoods number about one every two hundred feet (min.) I’d guess. The brighter lights that Mr. Gordon and his neighbors want are installed downtown, probably, at least 2 or 3 per 200 feet, times two (each side), so the ongoing maintenance and power costs to the taxpayers will be higher forever.



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: middletownscouter
Date Posted: Jun 28 2011 at 8:57am
The maintenance costs may not be too much higher when you consider the equipment that must be used to maintain the taller lights (man lifts) versus these newer ones (ladder).


Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jun 28 2011 at 3:25pm
Mike
Mr. Adkins stated at a city council meeting several months ago that the City was filling out the paperwork for the Ohio Historical Society so the city could file grants for the Highland District and South Main Street. What happened to these grants?? When Mr. Smith inquired if this grant could be used for the cemetery Mr. Adkins stated he didn't know.
Mr. Adkins also stated last years that CDBG funds were going to be used in the Highland Disitrict since it was one of his "TARGET AREAS". 


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 29 2011 at 4:39pm
Mr.Gordon--while it may seem that we are piling it on you pretty deep(and in a sense we are), this is really not about you. I commend you for taking the time and effort to explain your angle on the situation. Your explanations have been very clear,detailed and appreciated. I would assume that everyone here respects your position, your desire, and your intent to improve both your property and the community. Don't look at us as your adversaries--but as fellow concerned and caring citizens. We don't have do agree on things, though we can respectfully have these discussions.
 
Many are simply tired of the biased, wasteful and predictable way in which our municipal govt.operates.
 
Please help us break the cycle and downward spiral in ALL areas of the community.
Each neighborhood is as important as every other neighborhood.
As my mentor Victor Wooten's mother told him:
"Every day when you first wake up and look into the mirror, remind yourself---No one is better than you,
and you are better than no one."
 
And please buy your tickets to see Victor and his fellow Flecktones next April at Millet Hall.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FvXUVHECwM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FvXUVHECwM
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nESdn_5lNzc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nESdn_5lNzc


Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Jun 29 2011 at 6:35pm
Well said, It's our money that is spent hap-hazard by the Feds, by the State,  and then with hopes of getting 8800 students in our town. I hope it comes true but it flies in the face of sound business practice.  If the City knows something the TAXPAYERS don't, spell it out. Thats more of an insult then spending OUR money.  Anyone going to see the Menu's? 


Posted By: johnnyp26
Date Posted: Jun 29 2011 at 10:06pm
Thanks a lot VietVet.  I love being a firefighter/ paramedic.  I wanted to be one since riding on my uncle's fire engine on FDNY as a 4 year old.  Too often we don't hear a simple "thanks".  But that's part of the job and I'm OK with that.  We strive to be the best at what we do, despite having a dismal training deparment due to budget cuts.  We are realistic about the current state of the city but it is very hard to trust those in power.  Some people forget that we are taxpayers too.
I assume you are a military veteran my your name, if so, thanks for your service to our country.  It's ironic that our military and its veterans suffer the same lack of respect  as police and firefighters by the same type of people.  If it was easy everybody would be doing it.....
Again, thank you.


Posted By: 409
Date Posted: Jun 29 2011 at 10:09pm
Just came back from enjoying the Menu's.
Best group so far this year. Of course they are always good.
Good crowd, good time, & good weather for a change!


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jun 30 2011 at 9:59am
Attended the bash also.
Huge orderly crowd--outstanding scenery--good time
paid no attention to the band
had 2 very tasty chili dogs @ the square, where they were upbeat and valiantly attempting to turn lemons into lemonade
was approached by a nice gentleman who is running for Council
supposedly has already filed everything necessary
we shall see what he will bring to the table
 
was outside of one of my business locations yesterday, watching  a senior city employee of community development pull up business advertisement signs from the area as we head into the prime business holiday of the summer. Kinda wondered why they were out inhibiting business activity instead of working with the businesses and attracting more diverse entities into the community instead. And wondered why only certain businesses and areasare targeted while other less-savory businesses continue to operatecontinually in complete violation.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jun 30 2011 at 5:54pm
sj, the dichotomy of what the city does to one, to another can be amusing at times in Oz. Sign starndards so high around Atrium, no billboards, etc., Rogers Flowers clean as they come, but Main littered with nasty signs, FOR LEASE everywhere, every block, and Gold R Us more dominant than the smell of McDonald hamburgers on Verity.
 
I have heard, although no idea if true, tax deparment and city hall has stack ranked residents from net worth on down, and same with companies. Obviously AK and Atrium at top, city even pays for a police officer to be out by Coke plant for hours daily, just like they did at Hook Field, guarding it like it was Ft. Knox.
 
Dunno why or why not, just know dunno what's up nor what's down with city hall. Sure hope your rumor about the return of Huesman is unfounded. I do know that they are spinning round and round. City taking a mighty fine interest in the Sr. Citizens Center. Wonder of that's to buy YES votes, tit for tat. Everytime I get a peek and offer to be inside the circle of love, I run fast from the dark side of town.  


Posted By: jag123
Date Posted: Jun 30 2011 at 7:28pm
acclaro:
 
when were the police "guarding" hook field? if it was during an event, the organizer pays for the officer, not the city. also, i think sun coke or ak pays for the officers working there.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jul 01 2011 at 9:41am
jag123, right after Hook Field was built, and for months. Every day during the working day, police sitting at Coke directing traffic. Really doesn't matter who pays the bill, its the resource utilization.


Posted By: jag123
Date Posted: Jul 01 2011 at 5:29pm
most of the police officers are "off duty" officers making extra pay. don't know what you mean about hook field when it was built. that was 60 years ago.


Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Jul 02 2011 at 10:30am
johnnyp--thanks for the info.  I realize I come down hard on firefighters as it relates to their unionized status and their contracts, but I have no reason to doubt the professionalism and ability of the firefighters we have on staff.  As a practical matter I just think that if a large portion of the city's budget is spent on any particular item (in this case the police and fire personnel), then when times are tight you have to think hard about cutting where the spending is the greatest. 
 
You've answered my question about the need to accompany an ambulance on every run, and I guess I buy that to some extent, so perhaps you can explain this other item that nags at me; correct me if I'm wrong, but do our firefighters work 24 hour shifts?  And if so, what, exactly, is the reasoning behind that?  My gut tells me it harkens back to the old days of volunteer fire departments, when it made sense to have one set of volunteers cover for an extended period, say, 24 hours, and the firefighters could eat, sleep, or do whatever during that shift, but what exactly is the reasoning behind that today? 
 
As I alluded to in my earlier post, I know of no other continuous operation that schedules its crews in such a way.  My gut also tells me that this is the preferred schedule for firefighters because it allows them to have most of the week free to pursue part-time jobs or other interests.  Is that the case?  Can you tell me, from your own judgment, what portion of the firefighters have part time jobs?  And let me be clear, I have no issue with a person who feels the need to work two or more jobs to make ends meet--good for them, they're several notches in character above the many deadbeats that drag us down through section 8, welfare, etc.  But the issue I have is that we seem to cling to this antiquated system of 24-hour scheduling in order to 1) allow the fire fighters to work other jobs, as I've said, and 2) maximize the overtime opportunities for the firefighters.  Also, if you are at the station for two 24-hour shifts per week, how much time is spent sleeping in that 48-hour span?  Don't get me wrong, I would never expect any of you to be awake for 24 or 48 straight hours--that would be crazy and dangerous.  But I would guess that at least 12 to 16 hours are spent sleeping during that span, so the actual available time is a lot less than 48 hours per week.  Now I don't doubt there have been times when you've had to get up from sleep to answer a call, so it's not as though you're completely unavailable during this time, but my point remains--we're not getting truly 48 hours per week of productive work from the firefighters.  This brings me to the conclusion that we would get a far better value and would need fewer firefighters if they worked 12 hour shifts and were, of course, awake for the full 12 hours.  And iff the firefighter staff were reduced by 10-15% this would be a significant savings to the city without any material loss in service.
 
If you can give me a compelling reason, why, for example, you don't work 3 or 4 12-hour shifts per week like nurses do then I'll shut up and stop asking quesitons about this topic.  Thanks!


-------------
"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK


Posted By: johnnyp26
Date Posted: Jul 12 2011 at 9:56pm
Hi, Voice of Reason.  Sorry about the delay, my Mom's health is failing and my focus went with her....
As far as how many firefighters work part-time jobs, I would say less than half.  We don't have the luxury the police has.  They have numerous businesses that will pay them overtime wages for "part-time" work (using city owned vehicles and equipment, I might add).  When you see a medic unit at a special event, like a soccer tournament or Broad Street Bash, it is an ON DUTY medic unit.  The police you see are being paid overtime by the event.  That medic unit is also required to cover it's district....I just hope the delay in response doesn't affect you!
Our work schedule always comes under attack.  It amazes me.  Several years ago the  City paid $40,000 for a study of the fire department (the Matrix Study).  They determined that the City got the most "bang for it's buck" by the way we operate.  OK, if we run 19 firefighters per shift for 24 hours, our trucks get staffed.  If we went to 8 hour shifts, we would need 19x3 to cover 24 hours, or 19 firefighters for each 8 hour shift (57 firefighters per day!!!!!)  You also have to account for vacations, illnesses, and injuries, which would increase the number of firefighters needed per day.  If each firefighter worked 40 hours a week, we would be well over 120 firefighters minimum.  We are currently at around 76.  That is a lot of extra money the City would need for salaries, pensions, and health insurance!
Also, we work a 52-hour work week and get paid bi-weekly.  Regular employees would get 24 hours of overtime per check.  WE DON"T!!!  We get paid straight time.  To stay in accordance with FLSA, we accumulate what is called an EDO (earned day off), which is a paid day off. 
We are on pace to make about 10,700 calls for service this year.  Divide 10,700 by 365 and it equals about 29 calls per day.  Trust me, we stay busy.  We train, do building fire inspections, do public education, test fire hose, test fire hydrants, test our ladders. 
It is impossible to predict when we will be busy with calls or not.  We do get to sleep when we get the chance, I would never deny that.  But , wow, I would love to get to sleep 12-16 hours per day.  The simple fact is we don't.  There may be other less busy fire departments that get to do that.  If it happens here, it's extremely rare.
I have no problem with anyone questioning how we do our job.  It brings about healthy debate.  Like I have said, we have absolutely nothing to hide.  The bottom line is if they cut us 10-15%, everyone will feel the effects of it.  There will be less firefighters on duty to respond to calls.  Our calls for service have increased every year for decades.  People who call 911 will either get lucky and have MFD respond quickly, or wait for an out-of-town fire dept. to repond to their call for help.
Lastly, if I made anywhere near what a nurse makes on the hour, I would be open to any shift!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks!



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