Facilities Evaluation-How much?
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Schools
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URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4252
Printed Date: Oct 31 2024 at 6:46pm
Topic: Facilities Evaluation-How much?
Posted By: VietVet
Subject: Facilities Evaluation-How much?
Date Posted: Nov 22 2011 at 6:28am
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Today's Journal...
Four firms seeking to help Middletown schools with facility needs MIDDLETOWN — A four-member Middletown City Schools review committee has selected four architectural design firms which are vying to help the district determine its long term facilities master plan needs. Business Manager Milt Thompson was given the go ahead by the district’s board of education last month to seek requests for qualifications. The district sent out eight RFQ’s and seven firms responded. Thompson said it is important for the district to determine its long-term master facilities plan needs because of aging buildings. The newly named Vail Middle School is about 90 years old, has no air conditioning and is landlocked. The high school was built in 1964. WELL MILT, VAIL IS STILL A SOUNDLY BUILT SCHOOL. STILL HAS SOME MORE YEARS TO GO BEFORE STARTING TO THINK ABOUT DESTROYING IT. THE NEW HIGH SCHOOL MAY HAVE BEEN BUILT IN 1964 BUT THE DATE ALWAYS GIVEN FOR IT'S START IS 1970. THE BUILDING IS 41 YEARS OLD, HARDLY AGED ENOUGH TO START BEING CONCERNED. HOW DO YOU FIGURE PUTTING THE NEW HIGH SCHOOL ON THE VERITY LOCATION? IT IS "LANDLOCKED" TOO WITH RESIDENTIAL AND LEFFERSON PARK NEXT DOOR. THE BASEBALL FIELDS, SOCCER FIELD AND TRACK, THE FOOTBALL PRACTICE FIELD AND PARKING FOR STUDENTS AND FACULTY WILL NOT FIT INTO THE AREA AROUND VERITY. HOW DO YOU PROPOSE TO STUFF ALL THAT INTO THAT LAND AREA? OR......WILL YOU KEEP THE FACILITIES AROUND THE CURRENT HIGH SCHOOL AND BUS THE HIGH SCHOOLERS UP BREIL TO THE FIELDS? BIG QUESTION CONVENIENTLY NOT MENTIONED IN THE JOURNAL.......HOW MUCH ARE THESE "CONSULTANTS" GOING TO COST THE TAXPAYER, MILT? HOW OFTEN IS THIS DONE AND IS IT NECESSARY EVERY FEW YEARS? DOES THE FACILITIES SITUATION REALLY CHANGE THAT OFTEN? ANOTHER QUESTION FOR THE BOARD MEMBERS WHO FREQUENT THIS FORUM..... WHY IS THERE A POSITION OF "BUSINESS MANAGER" HELD BY THOMPSON AND ANOTHER POSITION OF DISTRICT MANAGER OF OPERATIONS HELD BY KLAPPER? BOTH HIGH SALARY POSITIONS I WOULD IMAGINE. SEEM TO BE IN THE SAME AREA OF EXPERTISE AND JOB FUNCTION ALSO. CAN'T CONSOLIDATE THE TWO AND JUST PAY ONE OF THEM WHILE DROPPING THE SALARY AND BENEFITS PACKAGE OF THE OTHER? WOULD APPEAR ON THE SURFACE THAT THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF "PACKING IN" LAYERS OF UNNECESSARY POSITIONS AND NOT SETTING UP TO RUN EFFICIENTLY, TYPICAL OF SCHOOLS AND ALL LAYERS OF GOVERNMENT. BET WE JUST FLAT OUT DON'T NEED HALF OF THESE PEOPLE IN REALITY. GEARING UP FOR ANOTHER FACILITIES BOND LEVY PERHAPS? GOING TO USE THESE FINDINGS TO TRY AND SELL THE NEED FOR NEW FACILITIES AT THE MIDDLE AND HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL NOW, ARE WE? REMEMBER, YOU JUST SPENT 45 MILLION ON NEW ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS A FEW YEARS AGO AND THEY HAVEN'T PRODUCED EYE-OPENING RESULTS WHEN YOU AND PRICE BS'D THE VOTERS THAT THINGS WOULD IMPROVE. DON'T EXPECT ANYTHING TO HAPPEN WITH NEW FACILITIES AT THE HIGHER LEVEL EITHER. NOT A GOOD TIME FOR ANYONE TO BE ASKING FOR MORE MONEY ANYWAY. |
Replies:
Posted By: jsmith2011
Date Posted: Nov 22 2011 at 7:49am
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Not only are there two positions (Thompson and Klapper) that was once one position, if you look at the MCSD website, there is still a director of transportation. I thought when Peterman took over the buses that position was gone.
We are all tired of the smoke and mirrors. The test results tell it all. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 22 2011 at 10:52am
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Mr. Fiora, having worked at Boston Consulting Group and PWC, I'll give the school district a nice discount. Architecture consultants, like strategy consultants, are hired to tell the client what they want to hear, develop the hypothesis, for the answer the client wants. In this case, its building new schools. Is it too late to bid. I'll come in .5% of what the others will, as all it is is fuzzy math with added overhead, to justify the building of a middle school and high school. The city and cob webs owe the school system one, for helping pass the 1.75% being teed up anyway and select council personnel. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 22 2011 at 11:08am
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Geez, Vet. Can't
you remember what Doctor Price told us back a few years ago??? "Students
can't learn in old buildings!!!" Now this must
come as a shock to the folks that attended Fenwick when their classes were held
in Old South School, or to folks such as the Mulligans who attended Notre Dame,
and whose classes were held in very old buildings, or even the many Middletonians
who attended Ivy League colleges, whose class buildings, lecture halls, and lab
facilities are the among oldest in our nation (and many of which remain un-air
conditioned even to this day). Then again, what
do I know??? Even though I attended Fenwick at Old South and the
"old" "new" Fenwick on University Blvd. and even though all
of these facilities were "old" and none of these facilities had air
conditioning, none of them compare to the supposed obsolete public school
facilities that our leaders are telling us must be torn down!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
VietVet wrote:Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Nov 22 2011 at 1:02pm
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Please review the thread "New School Facilities Proposal" from one month ago. Both Chris Fiora and I posted explanations. Mr. Thompson was just providing an update on that process, which is intentionally looking at a plan designed almost 10 years ago to see if any changes need to be made. No new buildings will be built unless and until (1) the state pulls our "number" for matching funds and (2) the voters approve a new bond levy. The earliest we expect that to happen would be 2014. In the meantime, Mr. Thompson has decisions to make about the proper maintenance and capital improvement of existing buildings.
Approximately 18-24 months ago, Mr. Thompson re-organized his department, eliminating a supervisor/management level position and placing more responsibilities under Mr. Klapper. With the budget reductions at the end of last school year, 2 director positions were eliminated and the central office was re-aligned, adding more areas of responsibility to Mr. Thompson's duties. The transportation supervisor is now employed by Petermann. I suspect that he is listed on our website so that parents know how to reach him with a question about busing, but he is not an employee of our district.
Acclaro, I am sorry you hold such a dim view of architects. However, they are not hired just to tell a district what they want to hear. The Ohio School Facilities Commission has numerous complex and detailed rules about how much square footage you can build per student, what type of spaces are permissible or not, what type of materials, the list goes on and on. These requirements must be met by districts, but they are not static. The rules have changed since the master plan was first developed. The architects are familiar with these rules and are able to estimate the cost for a district, based on its projected student population, to build a new building of the permissible size range, or to renovate an existing one to bring it up to snuff. The high school could be renovated but often the cost to do so is as much as tearing down and starting from scratch--due to the state requirements.
Kids do not have to go to school in a 90 year old building, and many choose not to do so. We lose a lot of students after elementary school, who then open-enroll in Monroe or Madison (nice new buildings) rather than attend Vail. For each such student, the district must pay $5700 to the receiving district, but we only receive $3900 from the state in funding for that student, so there is a net drain of local property taxes of $1800 for each such student. In addition, Vail is the most expensive building to heat and maintain, of all of our buildings.
On a different note, the Journal chose to write about Mr. Thompson's update, which took about 5 minutes of last night's board meeting. The main topic of our meeting, which took over an hour, was not touched by the Journal, but much more newsworthy in my view. A full and frank discussion of the district's goals for improving instruction, student achievement and school climate (i.e, discipline, morale, environment conducive to learning) and the specific strategies we are using to achieve those goals, with presentations by the principals at the high school, middle school and 6th grade center. I recommend that you take the time to watch the meeting when it is replayed on TV Middletown.
Marcia Andrew
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 22 2011 at 1:59pm
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[ RESPONSE to Ms Andrew- As I stated, the architect/consultant role is quite simple---to bring back the numbers to get the tax levy primed for 2014 if not sooner. I even said the year would be 2014 a month ago. Oh, here come the tax pizzas. I will be gone, you others pull out the checkbook, I refuse any longer for the poor schools and very bad city management. How about cafeteria food, leave one school such as MCSD to attend another because the food is better? Of course not! They leave because as they advance, they know the middle school has a rough and tumble reputation, that Monroe is better (on par with Fenwick in my estimation and requires at least 24 credit hrs, same as Fenwick), if they can get through open enrollment. On one hand, the argument is how grand the students made progress on an interactive tool through Batelle (hmmm, use of online training and assistance), and on another, making an argument that there must be new brick and mortar because the students will bolt because they like the smell of the new school better than the old one, all at taxpayer expense. Most collges today in the majority of top schools, don't even have air conditioning in the dorms. Do the students leave that institute to attend one with central air? It is such a tragedy brick and mortar, keeping up with the Jones, and securing matching state funds, is to on a higher pedestal than simply getting education performance up. West Chester would defeat this levy by 70%.It is more economical to maintain a building paid, than to build another period. Acclaro, I am sorry you hold such a dim view of architects. However, they are not hired just to tell a district what they want to hear. The Ohio School Facilities Commission has numerous complex and detailed rules about how much square footage you can build per student, what type of spaces are permissible or not, what type of materials, the list goes on and on. These requirements must be met by districts, but they are not static. The rules have changed since the master plan was first developed. The architects are familiar with these rules and are able to estimate the cost for a district, based on its projected student population, to build a new building of the permissible size range, or to renovate an existing one to bring it up to snuff. The high school could be renovated but often the cost to do so is as much as tearing down and starting from scratch--due to the state requirements. Kids do not have to go to school in a 90 year old building, and many choose not to do so. We lose a lot of students after elementary school, who then open-enroll in Monroe or Madison (nice new buildings) rather than attend Vail. For each such student, the district must pay $5700 to the receiving district, but we only receive $3900 from the state in funding for that student, so there is a net drain of local property taxes of $1800 for each such student. In addition, Vail is the most expensive building to heat and maintain, of all of our buildings.
On a different note, the Journal chose to write about Mr. Thompson's update, which took about 5 minutes of last night's board meeting. The main topic of our meeting, which took over an hour, was not touched by the Journal, but much more newsworthy in my view. A full and frank discussion of the district's goals for improving instruction, student achievement and school climate (i.e, discipline, morale, environment conducive to learning) and the specific strategies we are using to achieve those goals, with presentations by the principals at the high school, middle school and 6th grade center. I recommend that you take the time to watch the meeting when it is replayed on TV Middletown.
Marcia Andrew [/QUOTE]
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Posted By: jsmith2011
Date Posted: Nov 22 2011 at 3:26pm
| This school district loses a lot of students but it's not because we have old buildings. I've talked to (and know) quite a few of the parents who left this school district and not of them mentioned old buildings or that their child was hot. |
Posted By: Chris Fiora
Date Posted: Nov 23 2011 at 1:30pm
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Man...oh...man you guys sure have your panties in a knot. As Marcia pointed out, the purpose of this exercise is to re-look at an old long term facilities plan and make any required modifications to it. To be good stewards of our money we need to know where we want to be 10 years from now. Every organization that I've been a part of is constantly updating their master plan for this very reason. A lot has changed in 10 years since the facilities plan was last looked at and many feel that it needs to be re-developed. One big change was the addition of the 6th grade school and restructuring of the middle school to only 7th and 8th grade. This completely changes the number of students a middle school need to serve. No one in the current administration has claimed that students can't learn in an old building or that a new building enhances student learning. It's what is in the building and not the building itself that matters. I agree with jsmith that it's not typically the old buildings that cause people to open enroll their children outside of our district. The studies I've seen point more towards safety concerns (especially lack of discipline) and low academic performance. However a significant amount of people have concerns regarding the location of Vail. They don't feel that it is in a safe area of town. In the 90 years since it was built Middletown certainly has moved east. On a personal note, my wife's family grew up on Young street, a few blocks from Vail, and I can attest that the neighborhood has changed significantly since then. If we want to attract productive families to Middletown, we need to keep in mind that many will be concerned about Vail's location. I'm not saying that this justifies building a new Middle School. It is just one consideration of many that need to be weighed. I hope that many people get involved in the long range facility plan so that we can figure out how to serve the students of Middletown in a way that enhances Middletown, minimizes cost and has the support of most. ------------- |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 23 2011 at 2:00pm
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Mr. Fiora, as always, your directness is appreciated. Let me respectfully attack your points. Firstly, while concurring any plan of strategic nature should evolve and be updated after 5 years at most, I looked at the MCSD site, and could not find the Master Plan, perhaps I am looking at the wrong area? By Marcia's own statement, she stated students leave the district associated with the desire for the new lusher amenities of Monroe or another building. You appear to disagree with that adage. Finally, if the site of Vail is such a drastic concern for safety, why would the city be focusing its efforts and Cincinnati State, committing to downtown? Does not that fact actually negate your point and parental concern, that downtown will made much safer, associated with Cincinnati State's arrival? If Cincinnati Sate doesn't see the safety risk, why should parents and taxpayers foot the bill for a new school, when it is apparent, safety is of no consequence to Cincinnati State. The library isn't 5 minutes from Vail, and I read every Saturday afternoon there, or MUM. I've never encountered a safety threat. The concern you refer has nothing to do with the physical location of the school, but rather, the students whom attend. Have Ms. Andrew's husband speak with Dr. Hermann about his step-son, beaten severely in Vail. Location is not the problem, but composition of the student body, which will not be changing. If you built a middle school, you would still have the same problem at Vail, and that be violence, and the same problem with students leaving for open enrollment. For the benefit of virtually same expenditure, Monroe and other schools, offer better value, that's why students depart. One assumes there is police protection in Vail today, as the same as with the high school. |
Posted By: Chris Fiora
Date Posted: Nov 23 2011 at 2:31pm
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Acclaro,I'll have to look to see where the master plan is located. I don't know if it is on the web site. I'm not sure where Marcia received her information, but the reasons for leaving the district are numerous and I would not doubt that some have used that reason. From what I've seen it is not the primary reason. I have no idea what considerations the city and Cincinnati State used in selecting their location and I have no idea what ramifications their locating downtown will have on safety in the area. Regarding the safety of Vail's location I was not arguing that it was safe or not safe. What I tried to state was the perception that many people have that the area is not safe for their children and the poor impression that the location leaves (as reported to me by many local realtors) with people who are considering moving to Middletown. Your last point agrees with the studies that I referenced in my post that the primary reasons for open enrollment is safety (lack of discipline) and poor academic performance. Both of which are front and center in the district's goals and are starting to show some signs of improvement. You bring up some good points and I hope that you have the time to join the facility committee to bring these forward. ------------- |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 23 2011 at 3:05pm
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Mr. Fiora, please feel free to send a private email anytime, I;d be pleased to help in areas you may deem of benefit. Having 7 generations of educators in my family, including several in higher education, I am not anti-education assuredly. Agreed, Vail has small land mass, and is in a dismal area. However, I would not be selling a potential new school on this point, nor students like the smell of the "new car leather" than the old. That will not fly. Just as the adage "sometimes you have to spend money to make money" did not on the Franklin batter. Economics are understood. Centralization with reduction of busing/ logistic costs, and consolidation through economics of scale may be helpful. But, safety downtown is severely made weaker when considering the presence of Cincinnati State was not made a concern on locale. If that be true, the University of Cincinnati should move out of Clifton, or IU out of Bloomington, simply on statistical data. Consolidation may actually exacerbate the problem, by consolidation. More students under one roof, feithdoms, turf wars, West Side Story with the Jets. State funding if its MCSD's time to get "punched" helps, cannot be sole driver, even in Middletown. When cash is on line, its 60-40, unless numbers there to justify investment. At this stage, I think it is a very hard sell. |
Posted By: Chris Fiora
Date Posted: Nov 23 2011 at 3:39pm
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Acclaro,You make some great points. Keep in mind though, regarding Cinci State, maybe locations suitable for 18 to 35 year old students are not suitable for 12 to 13 year old students. However we're getting the "cart before the horse". The purpose of updating the master plan is NOT to justify new buildings it is to explore and determine the "best" long range facility plan for the district. The conclusion may be to tear them all down and start over or it may be to simply maintain what we have. Hopefully the process will yield the proper course of action. One that all can support. ------------- |
Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Nov 30 2011 at 7:05pm
| 28 computers stolen from the school system? Hopefully from the dumpster! |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 30 2011 at 7:39pm
Posted: 11/30/2011
MIDDLETOWN, Ohio - A Miamisburg, Ohio man who worked as a computer technician for the Middletown School District is accused of stealing $600,000 worth of computers over several years. Copyright 2011 Scripps Media, Inc Read more: http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/region_north_cincinnati/middletown/police%3A-it-worker-stole-400-school-computers#ixzz1fEqdPqJx - http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/region_north_cincinnati/middletown/police%3A-it-worker-stole-400-school-computers#ixzz1fEqdPqJx ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
By: Deb SilvermanPosted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 30 2011 at 7:49pm
NOTE: I post the above knowing that SupportMiddletown will accuse me of spreading "hearsay" and unfounded "accusations" and will call it a "conspiracy theory" (apparently involving me, the Middletown Police Department, WCPO, Scripps Media, and the MCSD) all just to try to keep downtown down and to try to make City Hall look bad.
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: ground swat
Date Posted: Nov 30 2011 at 8:12pm
| Thanks Mr.P- had know idea this happened or was reported. Knew about the band instruments being stolen but 400 units of one brand? Of course we don't have a gay porn star teaching at our school like they do up in Mass. Or do we? Hear say, it's on the city managers report. |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 30 2011 at 9:53pm
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wow--I would really like to try one of those macbook pros any of you use them? and we lost 400 of them without a major red flag or concern? how many do we have? how many DID we have? how many SHOULD we have? Makes it tough for the working taxpayer to have much faith in any level or direction of bureaocracy these days CYA seems to be the preferred mode of action Do people REALLY wonder why service levys fail by large margins?
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 01 2011 at 1:18am
From the Nov. 28, 2011, City Manager's newsletter:
Of course I realize by posting this, I risk having SupportMiddletown hurl another "conspiracy theory" accusation (or even an "accusation" accusation) at me, and this time even include the City Manager in along with the Middletown Police, Scripps Media, the MCSD, and WCPO as co-conspirators to make the city look bad!!!!
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Dec 01 2011 at 1:35am
I, personally, have never used any Mac. However, both my daughters use Macs almost exclusively, and my younger daughter has a Macbook Pro and likes it so much she seldom uses her PC at all. Of course they are both artsy types. (But don't tell anyone!!! I don't want to ruin my anti-arts image.)
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 01 2011 at 6:45am
| Any response from Ms. Andrew or Mr. Fiora? What will we discuss at our next school board meeting about putting into place a fixative for this theft of taxpayer money? Could our screening of personnel connected with your school system be upgraded and more intense? No one, in the whole school system, paid attention to what was occuring as the computers were being replaced at such a rapid rate and in such quantity? Perhaps an escort for service contractor personnel while in the school buildings is in order here, be it during or after school hours. |