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Lakota Cuts

Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Schools
Forum Name: Other School Issues
Forum Description: Discuss other issues such as school security, student activities, etc.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376
Printed Date: Apr 19 2024 at 2:54pm


Topic: Lakota Cuts
Posted By: VietVet
Subject: Lakota Cuts
Date Posted: Feb 14 2012 at 6:27am
Today's Journal....

Lakota considers cutting 69 teachers
Plan to offset a projected $9M deficit for next school year

LIBERTY TWP. — Lakota Local School District administrators are proposing eliminating nearly 69 teaching positions for secondary grades in the latest round of budget cuts.

The cuts are being proposed to help offset a projected $9 million budget deficit for the 2012-13 academic year.

The plan would allow the district to cut the secondary payroll by about $4.3 million, according to district officials.

About 43 teaching positions — based on district seniority and certification — would be eliminated at the high schools with an anticipated savings of at least $2.7 million. About 26 positions would be cut at the junior high level for a savings of about $1.6 million.

ONCE AGAIN, WE HAVE PROPOSED CUTS ON THE TABLE, THIS TIME FROM THE LAKOTA SCHOOL DISTRICT. THE ARTICLE TELLS US THE CUTS WILL BE MADE IN THE TEACHER RANKS AND SAYS NOTHING ABOUT CUTS IN THE ADMINISTRATOR RANKS. NOW I'M NO FAN OF THE TEACHER'S UNION. TOO BIG FOR THEIR BRITCHES, BUT THIS SEEMS LIKE A RAW DEAL FOR THEM. WHILE THE TEACHERS MAKE A NICE SALARY, THE HIGHER SALARIES/BENNIES PACKAGES ARE IN THE ADMIN. POSITIONS. IF SO, AND IF THE NAME OF THE GAME IS TO CUT MONEY FROM THE BUDGET, WHY WOULDN'T YOU LOOK AT ADMIN. DUPLICATION OF JOB DUTIES SUCH AS ASSIST. DIRECTORS/MANAGERS/SUPERVISORS AND MULTI-LAYERED POSITIONS AND CUT THERE FIRST, NOT IN THE CLASSROOM? I BET IF WE TOOK A LOOK AT THE LAKOTA ORGANIZATION, WE COULD SEE MULTIPLE POSITIONS THAT COULD BE COMBINED INTO ONE. PROBABLY TRUE WITH ANY DISTRICT. IF YOU CUT A SIZABLE NUMBER OF PAPER-SHUFFLING, DIRECTOR OF THIS/DIRECTOR OF THAT ADMIN JOBS AND STARTED CONSOLIDATING JOB RESPONSIBILITIES, YOU MAY BE ABLE TO SAVE SOME TEACHING JOBS, ELIMINATING THE NEED TO CUT CLASS SIZE, BENEFITING THE KIDS IN A MORE EFFICIENT WAY. THIS SEEMS TO BE THE GAME WHEN DOWNSIZING IS PLAYED. CUT THE LITTLE GUYS AND LEAVE THE HIGHER SALARIED POSITIONS ALONE. DOESN'T MAKE SENSE OTHER THAN TO PROVE THE UPPER ECHELON PROTECTS THEIR OWN.



Replies:
Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Feb 14 2012 at 8:43am
VV: the article also included this: "The fourth proposal - focusing on administration, athletics and other operations - will be presented at 7 p.m. Feb.27, also at Lakota East."


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 14 2012 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by chmoore1 chmoore1 wrote:



VV: the article also included this: "The fourth proposal - focusing on administration, athletics and other operations
- will be presented at 7 p.m. Feb.27, also at Lakota East."


It will be interesting to re-visit this after that date to discuss whether the severity of the admin. cuts matches those in the teaching ranks. Bet they keep alot of admin. positions that duplicate efforts. They like assistants to the assistants and creating Director positions to accomodate more top heavy worthless paper-shuffling jobs for their buds. JMO

Hell, rumor had it that Middletown had the football coach checking truancy to justify his job (before he left for Fairfield, that is) Situations like that, if true, do not endear the system to the taxpaying public.

chmoore1, are you connected with the schools? Your defense of the Midd. schools seems to suggest that. If so, it explains some of your responses to our stance on the other side of the fence here.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 28 2012 at 6:17am
Originally posted by chmoore1 chmoore1 wrote:



VV: the article also included this: "The fourth proposal - focusing on administration, athletics and other operations
- will be presented at 7 p.m. Feb.27, also at Lakota East."


Feb 28th article- Midd. Journal....

Lakota’s latest budget proposal targets athletics

LIBERTY TWP. — Lakota Local Schools administrators are recommending cutting $315,000 from the district’s $2.1 million athletics budget for next school year by decreasing coaching staff, support staff and other sports expenses

Over the past few weeks, the district has been presenting budget proposals totaling $7.4 million in cuts focusing on preschool, elementary and secondary education, and now athletics.

On March 5 (not Feb. 27th), the administration will present remainder of its budget proposals focusing on the administration, district-wide personnel and supplemental contracts

NOW WE'RE TALKING. GET TO THE AREA WHERE BIG MONEY WILL BE CUT FROM THE BUDGET- ADMINISTRATION POSITIONS. NOT ATHLETICS, NOT TEACHERS....ADMIN. SALARIES. GET RID OF THE REPETITIVE DIRECTOR POSITIONS, THE ASSISTANTS TO THE ASSISTANTS AND THE INTERMEDIATE MANAGER SLOTS. LITTLE GUYS REPORT TO A FEW BIG GUYS WITH NO PAPER-SHUFFLERS IN BETWEEN. LET'S SEE HOW FAR THEY WILL GO ON THIS. WILL THEY CUT THEIR BUDDIES AT THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN OR WILL THEY PROTECT THEM AS THEY USUALLY TRY TO DO?


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Mar 06 2012 at 6:27am
Today's Journal...

Lakota proposes cutting 50 administrative jobs
District already has 
recommended more than 100 teaching job cuts

LIBERTY TWP. — In its final budget proposal to the Lakota Board of Education, district administrators are recommending eliminating 50 more jobs, including central office administrators, building administrators and instructional specialists in moves that would cut $3.5 million from the 2012-13 budget

In Monday night’s proposal, the senior jobs recommended for elimination include an assistant superintendent, assistant treasurer, curriculum director, two assistant elementary school principals and the two deans of students, one at each high school.

The deans would be replaced by an assistant principal, shared between the two high schools.

NOW WE'RE GETTING DOWN TO REAL SAVINGS. PROBABLY DIDN'T NEED THE ASSIST TO THE ASSIST HIGH PAYING POSITIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE. ASSIST. TREASURER? WHAT? ASSIST.ELEMENTARY SCHOOL PRINCIPALS? WHY? WHY DO YOU NEED AN ASSIST. SUPER? TOO TOP HEAVY. BIG MONEY HERE FOLKS. SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE PLACE TO START. ARE THE ADMIN. CUTS IN PROPORTION TO THE TEACHER POPULATION CUTS? SHOULD BE.


Posted By: jsmith2011
Date Posted: Apr 08 2012 at 6:58pm
Article Title: Assistant principals feel heat as budgets shrink

Saw this article in the Cincinnati Enquirer yesterday. It talks about administrative cuts being made throughout the state.

Cuts Being Made by School Districts:

40 - Administrators Cincinnati Public
49 - Lakota
ALL Asst's. - Milford
Kings, Oak Hills, Clermont and so on.

Also, you can select a county and compare districts.

Middletown - Highest paid average salary for administrators
Middletown - Highest Administrator Cost per Pupil
BUT -- Out of the 10 Butler County Districts that are compared Middletown is in the bottom 1/2 with the number of pupils per administrator.
These comparisons are based on data from 2011 from the Ohio Dept. of Ed. This school year Middletown increased the number of administrators and they have a job announcement on their website to hire another for next year. One of the jobs that were previously cut due to budget constraints in being filled again.

To view the contents on cincinnati.com, go to: http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/201204070622/NEWS/303260174




Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 08 2012 at 10:15pm
Information from jsmith......Middletown - Highest paid average salary for administrators
Middletown - Highest Administrator Cost per Pupil
BUT -- Out of the 10 Butler County Districts that are compared Middletown is in the bottom 1/2 with the number of pupils per administrator.
These comparisons are based on data from 2011 from the Ohio Dept. of Ed. This school year Middletown increased the number of administrators and they have a job announcement on their website to hire another for next year. One of the jobs that were previously cut due to budget constraints in being filled again

If true, could you explain why we have this situation with regard to administrator salaries and cost per pupil, Ms. Andrew? How does the district justify this especially when considering the end results on performance? Why is the school district hiring a person to fill the same position previously cut? Is there other information that we aren't aware of? Please explain.


Posted By: tracyl
Date Posted: Apr 09 2012 at 7:00am
Ah Vietvet you are only but scratching the surface here.  Let us ask Ms. Andrews a few more questions shall we?  Questions like, why is Race to the Top money being used for, you guessed it, ADMINiSTRATORS? I guess one could be thankful it isn't being used as Lisa Lowery wanted, to pay for the high school coach.  You cut assistant principals out one year, bring em back the next.  Speaking of administrators, is it not true that Debbie Sanders left MIddletown ina  tizzy awhile back, pulling her children and heading for Monroe (trash talking MIddletown the entire time), only to be cut because she doesn't have her principal's license and then, you guessed it, is the new principal at Central next year? Speaking of no license, is it true some of your overpaid "academic coaches" don't even hold a teaching license?  What's up with that?  And what about TItle 1 funds?  How many of your administrators are paid out of that?  Aren't those funds supposed to be for the students in some fashion?  How does Kathy Jonas help support students? Isn't she one of the ones paid from this fund?  Teachers order supplies for the students from this fund every year and guess what?  This year they didn't get them all.  When you contact her, no response.  Where did that money go?  Why do you have a reading program that we tax payers paid for, one that is research based and aligned to the standards, yet teachers are not allowed to use it and school fee money is not used to reorder supplies for it.  That money is used to order other workbooks.  One last question, I see teacher salaries in the paper.  One of which is a teacher who left the district to go to Butler Tech as an adminstrator of some kind, with the pay to go with it.  She got cut and MCSD hired her back, matching her previous salary from Butler Tech, not in alignment with the schedule.  How is this possible? In my opinion, MCSD has too many chiefs and not enough indians yet it's the indians that are going to get you the scores you so desperately need. You handicap teachers with cuts and minimal supplies, principals are dinged in their evaluations if they suspend the hoodlums, how on earth to you expect things to get better?


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 09 2012 at 7:51am
tracyl,if your post could be factually verified, would be interesting to take your post to the school board meeting, read it verbatim and ask for some answers.

What about this information Ms. Andrew? Any truth in these statements? Could we get a response from the Superintendent on this? He and others in the school system owe the taxpaying public an explanation. We have a right to know what is going on in the schools we are funding. There appears to be alot of internal turmoil that is kept from the public if tracyl is on target.


Posted By: jsmith2011
Date Posted: Apr 09 2012 at 9:07am
If you cut and paste the link at the bottom of my last post, you will be taken to the article in the Enquirer. There is an interactive link where you are able to put in the school district you want the information about and select the information by county. This information came from the Ohio Department of Education. They do not fudge the numbers and beat around the bush like Middletown City Schools.

Thank you Tracyl for bringing all those questions forth, although I doubt you will ever get a straight answer. If anything is ever questioned, the answer usually is, "That/they are paid through grant money". That makes it unquestionable by taxpayers in the school board eyes.

Kathy Jonas is also in charge of the libraries, heard she was paid an additional $5,000.00 a year to be the "library coordinator" and never contacted one person who worked in the library, never held a meeting, etc. but at the end of the year recommended that all those positions be cut and now the libraries are a mess. I have heard that one school actually has a certified teacher taking a class to the library when the library staff that was cut made 1/3 of a teachers pay. How is that saving money? This year Jonas is in charge of the one librarian who is left but I bet she is still getting that $5,000.00 stipend at the end of the school year. So now, the school district is going to fill those library positions again next year?!?

Jonas is also in charge of professional development for the certified staff. Being paid as much as she is, you would think she would have the knowledge to hold these sessions herself but instead, the school district HIRES outside people to come and teach the information.

She's not the only employee the taxpaying public should question. How about Ms. Grome (may be incorrectly spelled)? She was hired several years ago by Lisa Lowery for a position at an elementary school but she was hired when an employee who was laid off should have been called back. When that employee filed a grievance with the union, sure enough, it was her right to have the job but they had already signed a contract with Grome so she was put in the admin building and given a title. Of course, she has been given another contract and is making the big bucks but she isn't listed anywhere on the school website. What does she do? A better question, who does she know?

Is it true that the new Mayfield principal hired one of her friends from Cincinnati to be the "academic coach" at Mayfield? That's the way it works in this district.

And please don't get me started about the football coach WHO DOESN'T EVEN TEACH and makes $80,0000.00 a year. He's checking tardy students, a job a classified person had at one time who made $25,000.00 a year but the job was given to the last football coach who was hired and didn't have a certificate to teach high school. I guess we should overlook all of that since the team did so well.....

The waste goes on and on in this school district and they have enough nerve to think about asking us for more money? Either the school board is being snowed by the administrators who tell them what they want to hear or the board is just turning a blind eye to all the issues.

I don't think it's "internal turmoil" vet, I think that the school district employees/administrators have found out, years ago, what they can get away with, and have/are taking advantage of us, the taxpayers.



Posted By: tracyl
Date Posted: Apr 09 2012 at 10:06am
Jsmith Jonas no longer does professional developments because teachers, through surverys stated they spent entirely too much time outside of the classroom with her and Eve Hayes (the person you speak of who was hired to do them). Now, no one seems to kniw what she does to earn the money she makes. No one sees her and when you ask her for supplies ordered FOR students, you don't get an answer. She was just renewed by the way.

Speaking of waste, does anyone know what exactly is MCSD's policy concerning special education?
Are they full inclusion? No one seems to know. All that is known is that there are special ed students in classrooms with little to no intervention during math and reading and IEP's are being written not according to needs but staffing, which is completely illegal.

Vey, jsmith is right. You won't get answers unless a lot of people start getting loud about this. Teachets can confirm a lot of what is being said,but good luck fnding one not afraid to confirm.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 09 2012 at 11:19am
Sooo... the question is the same as getting the message out to the community about the city's unannounced agenda.......how do we go about stirring enough anger in the community about this for the school board (and council) to take notice that the people are fed up? We all know the Journal is the city's journalistic prostitute, told what to report on by the city leaders. We also know that there is no organized resistance to what is going on in the town as well as the schools. A community newsletter to actually report the truth would be a starting point. Need stories from the posts of those in the know about "behind the scenes" activities such as this, need them placed in newsletter form, printed, titled "What They Don't Want You To Know" and distributed to all areas of town (or pay the post office bulk mail rates to deliver them on the routes) Not enough people read this forum to attract the numbers needed to make the city and schools stand up and take notice. Now, how do we get the ball rolling on this, assuming there is enough interest? Someone know a printer? Good on the computer to organize the information and place it in newsletter form? How about postage for bulk mailing? Is it worth it?


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Apr 09 2012 at 1:59pm
tracyl,
What is your take on the discipline situation under this administration?  More cowardly sweeping under the rug?


Posted By: tracyl
Date Posted: Apr 09 2012 at 6:14pm
Bill I can only say that in some ways it is getting better but when the principals take a hit on their yearly evaluations for suspensions then what do you think happens? Would you be motivated to boot out the serial offenders? They are still there, all the way down to the elementary level, with their parents who have to take zero responsibility.   That is why Highview is getting an assistant principal, she has her hands full. The elementary loaded up to almost full capacity, with an ED unit full of runners isn't going to get any help though, just more of the ED students. As long as they are handled and no one else has to do it right? There is a lot going on in the district that public just does not know.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 09 2012 at 6:42pm
traceyl----with your detailed knowledge of the school system, do you believe it is justifiable to have new schools built as part of Phase 2?

-------------
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Apr 09 2012 at 9:21pm
Acclaro: seriously? chmoore


Posted By: jsmith2011
Date Posted: Apr 09 2012 at 9:40pm
Due to the fact that the school district made the decision to close Highview as an elementary school and then farm out those students to other elementaries, the school district has created another bigger problem for themselves. Elementary schools are now overcrowded.

Some schools are going to need to add additional classes next year in some grade levels and do not have room for them. One school is considering putting students on the stage?!? What type of learning environment is that? It doesn't matter if it is English or Art, it isn't right.

New schools were built, with our money, they weren't large enough to begin with. One school, Highview, was open several years and then was remodeled for older students. Then they wanted to argue that the cost was not extreme. Whatever the cost, it was a waste of money. Now they want to build more schools which will make Highview obsolete AGAIN and it will be remodeled AGAIN for younger students.





Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 10 2012 at 6:11am
Originally posted by jsmith2011 jsmith2011 wrote:

Due to the fact that the school district made the decision to close Highview as an elementary school and then farm out those students to other elementaries, the school district has created another bigger problem for themselves. Elementary schools are now overcrowded.

Some schools are going to need to add additional classes next year in some grade levels and do not have room for them. One school is considering putting students on the stage?!? What type of learning environment is that? It doesn't matter if it is English or Art, it isn't right.

New schools were built, with our money, they weren't large enough to begin with. One school, Highview, was open several years and then was remodeled for older students. Then they wanted to argue that the cost was not extreme. Whatever the cost, it was a waste of money. Now they want to build more schools which will make Highview obsolete AGAIN and it will be remodeled AGAIN for younger students.





I don't remember reading anywhere that the musical chair usage was occuring at Highview. Not in the Journal that I recall. Who is in charge of the building student alignment- IE, capacity, grades occupying the building, and usage? Milt Thompson is the Manager of the buildings as to maintenance but not occupancy, right? If this was the decision of the Super and the School Board, they certainly have a cluster going on at Highview, don't they? This info. needs to be broadcasted to the public when they get ready to go for their Phase 2 building fiasco. If this is the result of Phase I, we don't need to see Phase 2, do we? May we have an explanation concerning this Ms. Andrew? Reasons for this activity at Highview?


Posted By: jsmith2011
Date Posted: Apr 10 2012 at 9:05am
Highview was an elementary school K-5 (and a high performing one) but last year the school board decided to make it a 6th Grade school only so all of those K-5 students from Highview were assigned to other existing elementaries. I don't know how many students it involved but I'm guessing about 400? Now, instead of walking across the street or down the road, they are bused to Amanda, Miller Ridge, etc. etc. No one at Highview was happy about the decision. Not the parents who had to have their children bussed to the other end of town, not the staff, who were moved several times from Roosevelt, Jefferson and other schools when they closed.

So, the school board closed Verity (in anticipation of building a new high school there) although we weren't fully aware of their reasons at that time.

I couldn't understand why they didn't just send the 6th grade students back to their original home elementary schools. At one time, the elementary schools were K-6 but then the school board decided to send 6th grade to the junior highs. They were going to be adding more students in the elementary schools no matter what, why not send the 6th grade back, eliminate the need for all the extra bussing, moving and renovating and leave Highview alone?

I believe now I know the answer. The Phase 2 building project had not been presented to the public at that point.

What a good selling point....need a new junior high to accomodate the 6th, 7th and 8th grade students and convert Highview back to elementary due to overcrowding issues.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 10 2012 at 3:33pm
Yes, there are a few school board members quite keen on closing Vail, while Cincinnati State is moving downtown, but the school board thinks it is an "unseemly" area. Go figure. So, they waste money to build. What a disappointment the school board and city council are in Middletown.

-------------
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 14 2012 at 9:59am
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Information from jsmith......Middletown - Highest paid average salary for administrators
Middletown - Highest Administrator Cost per Pupil
BUT -- Out of the 10 Butler County Districts that are compared Middletown is in the bottom 1/2 with the number of pupils per administrator.
These comparisons are based on data from 2011 from the Ohio Dept. of Ed. This school year Middletown increased the number of administrators and they have a job announcement on their website to hire another for next year. One of the jobs that were previously cut due to budget constraints in being filled again

If true, could you explain why we have this situation with regard to administrator salaries and cost per pupil, Ms. Andrew? How does the district justify this especially when considering the end results on performance? Why is the school district hiring a person to fill the same position previously cut? Is there other information that we aren't aware of? Please explain.


While we are on the subject of positions within the school system, the April 14th edition of the Journal has this in it's "Re-do bullying" program.

"Middletown Schools senior director of leadership Sam Ison........"

And pray tell, what would a Director of Leadership do on a daily basis for the money we are paying for the salary? What is the taxpayer getting for our money here? This is what has always angered me about the layers upon layers of upper echelon positions here. On the surface, this would appear to be another, "let's create a position for a buddy" scenario. How about incorporating "leadership" in the superintendents job responsibilities and eliminating this position?


Posted By: rshaffer
Date Posted: Apr 14 2012 at 11:29am
VV: according to middletowncityschools.com, Mr. Ison's position is listed as Sr. Director of INSTRUCTIONAL Leadership. His duties include discipline, suspensions/expulsions, Special Education (IEPs), attendance, and "bullying." This department is different from the Department of Learning (which is curriculum-based). All of the school districts comparable in size to Middletown that I am aware of have a designated Assistant---or Associate---Superintendent in this position, and not a "Director." Respectfully, Rick Shaffer

-------------
Rick


Posted By: Stanky
Date Posted: Apr 14 2012 at 3:16pm
Rick, don't expect to Vet to simply do a little research on the MCSD website. Ranting is more fun.

My complaint is that Mr. Ison apparently does not have a very taxing schedule since there are minimal suspensions and very no expulsions, from what many say. Why should anyone want to enroll here when the inmates run the asylum?


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 14 2012 at 3:38pm
Borrowing from Abraham Maslow's theory on self actualization and needs,
 
"when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem appears to be a nail."
 
Within city hall and MCSD with the Board, they only have a hammer in hand, and a nail to drive home.


-------------
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 15 2012 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Stanky Stanky wrote:

Rick, don't expect to Vet to simply do a little research on the MCSD website. Ranting is more fun.

My complaint is that Mr. Ison apparently does not have a very taxing schedule since there are minimal suspensions and very no expulsions, from what many say. Why should anyone want to enroll here when the inmates run the asylum?


Gee Stanky, I wouldn't characterize my post as "ranting". (yeah, it's fun by the way) Just asking a question that someone of knowledge about the schools could answer. Why does everything have to be researched when a simple question could produce the same results? Just seems to me that there are quite a few positions like Director of Instruction, Director of Curriculum and others that seem like they could be incorporated into other positions, saving the taxpayer some money. Since we all pay into the system to fund these types of jobs, we all have a right to know, don't we?

Ironically, you state....

"My complaint is that Mr. Ison apparently does not have a very taxing schedule since there are minimal suspensions and very no expulsions, from what many say"

This statement could be taken as asking the same thing I said....ie.....what does this guy do with his time to earn his money?

Then follow it with a school complaint (rant in your words) ......

"Why should anyone want to enroll here when the inmates run the asylum?"

You jump my a-- for ranting, then turn around and bitch about the schools too.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 15 2012 at 12:24am
Originally posted by rshaffer rshaffer wrote:

VV: according to middletowncityschools.com, Mr. Ison's position is listed as Sr. Director of INSTRUCTIONAL Leadership. His duties include discipline, suspensions/expulsions, Special Education (IEPs), attendance, and "bullying." This department is different from the Department of Learning (which is curriculum-based). All of the school districts comparable in size to Middletown that I am aware of have a designated Assistant---or Associate---Superintendent in this position, and not a "Director." Respectfully, Rick Shaffer


Thank you for the info. Mr. Shaffer.


Posted By: rshaffer
Date Posted: Apr 15 2012 at 1:33am
You're welcome, Vet.   

-------------
Rick


Posted By: jsmith2011
Date Posted: Apr 16 2012 at 2:11pm
The point about Mr. Ison's position I think is mainly that the position was created in the past few years. At one time, there was one administrator who performed the duties or both Mr. Ison and Ms. Carter.

I did notice today that Middletown City Schools has an announcement on their website for ANOTHER ADMINISTRATOR POSITION.....Dean of Students?!?

What the hell?


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 16 2012 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by jsmith2011 jsmith2011 wrote:

The point about Mr. Ison's position I think is mainly that the position was created in the past few years. At one time, there was one administrator who performed the duties or both Mr. Ison and Ms. Carter.

I did notice today that Middletown City Schools has an announcement on their website for ANOTHER ADMINISTRATOR POSITION.....Dean of Students?!?

What the hell?


And, if this new position is actually going to be created, this is what I'm trying to convey, ie, how many positions appear to be in the same realm of expertise and how many layers of duplicate job responsibilities do they need? jsmith states "at one time, there was ONE administrator who performed the duties of both Mr. Ison and Ms. Carter.......why two now? Has the job grown to such a degree of difficulty that it now takes two highly paid admin. to cover what one used to cover? Was the one admin. doing both jobs that efficiently? Are there now more requirements from the state that one can no longer handle it all? Why the increase in highly paid personnel now and what is the justification for positions like "Dean of Students"? Seems as if they are just adding to an already top heavy admin. staff. Are these positions so intense and specific that they need all the staffing?

Ms. Andrew, could you explain all these positions to the taxpayer funding them?


Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Apr 16 2012 at 4:02pm
As I have explained several times before on this forum, Mr. Ison was not hired into a new position, the position was renamed when he was hired.  Two years ago, there were 8 Director positions in central administration. Last year, two Directors were eliminated (Community Relations and Technology) and their duties reassigned to existing staff. The Director of Pupil Services (Mrs. Combs) retired.  Mr. Ison was hired in her place, but with the restructuring the responsibilities had shifted to emphasize instructional leadership--he is responsible (among many other things) for training the principals to be instructional leaders for their buildings, not just managers. Raising expectations. Dr. Carter continues to be in charge of Curriculum, among other things. JSmith is just wrong when she/he says that one person was performing both of these duties.
 
In this year's budget cycle, we have determined that eliminating the Technology director was a mistake.  Especially with the move to the Common Core standards, we need someone in to lead in the area of instructional technology -- how to use technology in the classroom to teach 21st century skills that students will need to compete in the global economy. So that position is being added back.  Dean of Students is to provide assistance to the Principal at the 6th grade center, who currently has no assistant principal. We have found the students needs are too great. My understanding is that Dean of Students is at a lower pay level than an assistant principal would be.  A primary role of Dean of Students would be discipline. I would think with all the griping on this board of the supposed lack of discipline in the schools, people could appreciate the need for someone to handle discipline so that the teachers and principal can focus on teaching and learning.
 
Vet, yes, we need the staff we have.  The requirements from the state and fed are constantly increasing and changing; seemingly never do they eliminate mandates.
 
And, in response to an earlier post, Debbie Sanders has not been hired in this district (although I don't see why it would be wrong if we did. She did not retire when she moved from Middletown to Monroe; she took advantage of an opportunity for a promotion. We don't blackball people who leave the district to gain additional experience).  We are hiring a principal from Monroe, Jennifer Dennis, to replace the retiring principal at Central Academy.


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Apr 16 2012 at 4:20pm
I'm not sure I would term the concern about the ongoing discipline problems to be "griping".  Considering the rampant negative impressions in that regard and the concerns expressed by teachers both publicly (on this forum) and privately, I think the discipline/behavior crisis is the 800 pound elephant in the room.  Many of us were hoping the replacing of Price would result in bold change on this issue.  That has not happened. 


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 16 2012 at 6:10pm
Again, Ms. Andrew, thank you for the information from within that you provide. I'll be honest with you, I find it extremely confusing with all of the changes, both in structure within the Director's positions and with the title changes......who is retiring, who is replacing the retired person, who is accepting a new role, who is in charge of what, Directors of Curriculum, Students, Discipline, Leadership, Attendance, Technology....wow.......all very confusing as described. Just trying to see where our tax money is going and what it is going for as to salaries,etc. You might have gotten the indication by now that I'm not a big fan of money waste at any level nor positions created that are not necessary, be it local, state or federal. See too much of it here at Wright-Patt with the overload/duplicate layers of government people who walk around, seemingly doing little to nothing to benefit the taxpayer footing the bill. This is the epitome of waste here on base but being in the lower echelon of the food chain here, we all keep our mouths shut and swallow our anger a bit. They won't fire any government people if there is no need for their current job. They just create a new job that is not needed to retain them. Ridiculous situation IMO.



Posted By: jsmith2011
Date Posted: Apr 17 2012 at 9:17am
All of the changes are confusing because they want it to be that way. They change the names of the positions and add positions and then say the position existed but the name was changed. The bottom line is that there are MANY MORE administrative positions in this school district than there were in the past and if anyone questions the school board the person who questions is incorrect and the positions are needed.

Bottom Line in Butler County:

Middletown City Schools - Highest Paid Average Salary for Administrators
Middletown City Schools - Highest Administrator Cost Per Pupil
Middletown City Schools - Bottom Half with the number of pupils per Administrator
Middletown City Schools - Adding 2 more administrator positions for 2012-2013 school year.

They are adding more administrators but I just heard all the nurses received their pink slips last Friday in the school district. To cut costs, instead of having RN's take care of the staff and students, the school district with hire LPN's because it will be cheaper. They can keep adding administrators but they keep cutting the support staff. Not to mention that some of the nurses have been with this school district 20 some years. Sad


Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Apr 17 2012 at 9:38am
Bill, have you or anyone in your immediate family been in a Middletown City Schools classroom this year? The statement that nothing has been done about discipline in the district is just flat wrong.  Several years ago, the union insisted on having a joint committee established to discuss and address the issues, both actual and perceived.  So, we went through a process.  After 2 years of research both as to existing conditions and various solutions, best practices in other districts, etc, the committee decided to implement Positive Behavioral Supports approach to behavior and discipline. Some school buildings started versions of this last year and the year before; this is the first year that it is being implemented district-wide.  Basically, it involves recognizing that kids need to be taught appropriate behaviors just as they need to be taught how to read, and they need consistent response and correction.  All the staff of each school participates in setting common expectations and consistent adult responses when students meet or fail to meet those expectations.  This may not sound like rocket science, but it is a significant change in approach, and it takes time to get everyone on the same page for that consistency.  But, it is working. Disciplinary incidents are down and morale is way up.  The catch-phrase is Middie PRIDE (Performance, Respect, Integrity, Determination, Effort).


Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Apr 17 2012 at 9:50am
JSmith,
 
The number of administrators and the types of positions at Middletown City Schools is in line with other school districts. We know this from talking to and observing other districts.  We are looking into why the figures posted in the paper show Middletown with such high administrative costs; it is not consistent with what we know. It may be an issue of how positions are coded in the state reporting system.
 
As to the school nurses, we currently staff with licensed school nurses, the most expensive option.  At that rate, we only have 6.8 FTE nurses. But we have 10 school buildings. So there are not nurses in each building at all times. When there is no nurse, the school secretary, who has essentially no medical training, deals with any health issue that arises.  Under the proposed plan, we could have 10 LPNs, plus an RN, for a lower total cost. And be able to have a licensed health professional in each building at all times, while saving taxpayer money.  I personally do not feel it is the job of the schools to provide basic health care to students (and we certainly do not receive funding for that purpose). The role of the school nurse should be to respond to emergencies and illnesses, and administer medications. If the emergency or illness is serious, parent and/or 911 would be called.
 
We have surveyed other school districts, and the trend is away from licensed school nurses to LPNs. Many districts are already there.


Posted By: jsmith2011
Date Posted: Apr 17 2012 at 10:05am
Vet, you were correct when you said in an earlier post that not enough people in this town realize what goes on. There is no good way to get the word out. Getting on this forum stating facts and asking questions that are shot down by Ms. Andrews, on a daily basis, is a waste of time.

You ask her to respond to the statements people make and then you thank her for the information that she provides which basically states that whoever is making the negative comments or questioning the school board about any decisions they have made, are incorrect. There is NEVER going to be a time when she says, "You are correct, we were wrong". NEVER...

If someone from City Council were on here responding, they would do the same. Why would any of them admit they were wrong, even if they knew deep down inside that they are?

Why should we question them hiring their friends? Why should we question their judgement when it comes to wasting our money?

They are elected officials but feel they can say and do whatever they please because really, who in Middletown is going to tell them they can't?

Seriously, what's the point? This town is too small for any one person, who actually knows what goes on, to stand up at a board meeting or a council meeting and tell the taxpaying public the facts. I'm not saying I'm that person, because I certainly am not, although I am very familiar with the school district and KNOW there is a lot of waste, so does everyone else who works there but hell, no one is going to say what they know, why jeopardize their high paying jobs they will have for 30 years, they just turn their heads to it all, close the classroom door and go about collecting their paychecks and bitch to each other.

tracyl knows but she/he hasn't been back on here since because she/he brought up questions that only someone who works for the school district could ask and then realized that someone may find out who they are. I don't know this for a fact but I think it's a pretty good guess.

Both the school district and city council depend on the fact that a large percentage of people could care less. They use their smoke and mirrors to get by and it works.

I'm done here....done wasting my time. I started posting on this forum hoping that maybe the people on here would open other's eyes to what goes on and there would be change but it's never going to happen.



Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Apr 17 2012 at 12:33pm
If, in fact, tracyl works for the Middletown School District, then that is a good example of why one should not believe that just because someone works for the schools, they have accurate information about the whole district.  I already explained how her rumor about the new Central principal was wrong. Her posts also contained many other statements that were plain incorrect, or half truths.
 
Yes, Race to the Top and Title I money are mainly used for administrators and other support staff. These are federal grant funds that may NOT be used to pay the salaries of classroom teachers.  The grants state how the funds can be used. Primarily their focus is on professional development, to train teachers to improve the quality of instruction, and to collect and analyze data and train teachers on how to use the data from testing to tailor their lesson plans. So yes, it does help students.
 
Kathy Jonas has never been paid a stipend to be "library coordinator." She receives supplemental pay to compensate her for working during the summer. Something many people do not understand when they complain about high salaries of adminstrators, is that central office administrators work 12 months a year, compared to 9.5 months per year for a teacher.  Principals are paid for about 10.5 months, as they stay for several weeks at the end of the school year and return several weeks early. For some reason, Jonas' position is not a full year position, hence the supplemental pay to work the weeks she was supposed to be off in the summer.
 
JSmith, I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, when I see incorrect facts (as opposed to opinion), I try to correct them, because they turn into rumors that are bad for our schools and our city.  And I try to explain the reasons for decisions that seem stupid or crazy to others, but make sense if you know the full situation.
 


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Apr 17 2012 at 3:52pm
jsmith....I ask questions about the schools because I work in the private sector and am not familiar with the inner workings. I ask Ms. Andrew because she seems to be the only person (Mr. Fiora also), who has interacted with the general public. Mr. Laubach and Ms. Scott-Jones and, when a councilman, Mr. Marconi, responded occasionally. Now, Ms. Andrew seems to be the only one to respond. I respect that even though I don't always agree with her concerning the schools. I thank her for her ressponses. She doesn't have to do that.

I read your comments, as well as hers, and assess the differences. I agree with you on your comments about some city leaders disregarding what the general public has to say to them. The only way to get their attention would be to go in numbers to the school board and council meetings. Won't happen. Too much apathy. No one really cares in this town. There are people who care on this forum, but for whatever reason, we can't get this forum to meet, organize and develop a program to resist what we dislike. It has been a problem for many years IMO.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Apr 17 2012 at 4:41pm
jsmith, I respectfully disagree with your assessment as to readers whom have a stake in their taxes and the performance of the school system. The posting which shed light on waste, job creation for Friends of Friends, in industry, we call it Friend of Ray, in honor of an executive at a Fortune 10 company whom was renown of doing this in the private sector, hiring the blue blood consulting firms, his first name was Ray, which has become a de facto term in the industry. So, your meaning and intent is well understood and comprehended. Hello Friend of Ray, here's your job and contract. Just like Judy Gielleland does at the city, welcome Friend of Ray---Pratt, Robinette, too many to keep track of.

I encourage you to keep up sharing this info.

As I cannot speak for Ms. Andrew, I will state as she has referenced "half truths", I in response, will say, there to be "half responses." In other words, in my recall of many questions which come forth, only about 50% of those are responded to by Ms. Andrew and others. So...there are half truths and there are half responses.

For instance, I have read, which I can't confirm nor deny, discipline was such a problem under Price, it led to his termination. I have read countless times, this same problem has been unchanged under Rasmussen. There has been no statistical info shared by either Ms. Andrew nor Mr. Fiora, regarding that topic, which I read most commonly.

There have also been commentary regarding excessive auto allowances above $500.00 monthly for those not actually using an auto for intended purposes, but simply to get them to work. That topic has not been addressed. As for the addition of people, and titles, I read a vague notion associated with "state law" when everything at the State implies Columbus is cutting its budget, not adding to it. We need a CIO of technology for the new century? That's almost laughable. Is the system going to hire an IBM IT Partner to fill this role, or someone who knows how to send an email? I believe the latter.

The half responses are more plentiful in my opinion, than any notion of half truths on this forum. As stated, I cannot make Ms. Andrew respond to all questions, just those she chooses, with a slight spin skewed in the direction of favoring the administration, and an awful lot of half responses not addressed.

I for one would also find any Board member having more credibility when making assertions regarding "half truths" when not one Board member in the 20 + years I have been in Middletown, ever criticized the city in direction, policy, nor strategy. We hear a lot of lower demographic "speak", but no mention of Section 8 declaration. For those that don't know it, when the city gets non profits into Middletown, like Cincinnati State, the residential taxpayer is left with paying the difference. Sr Citizens groups, hospitals, community colleges, don't pay property tax. You do resident.

Time for the Board to bring the city into the mix of complaints, than the residential taxpayer getting stuck with the tab.

Vet, totally wrong on apathy. Initiative right now underway and in action, modeled after the West Chester No effort, to kill waste in the school system by tax levies.            

-------------
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: Chris Fiora
Date Posted: Apr 19 2012 at 1:12pm
I'm sorry that I haven't been more active on this forum, but I've been traveling and working on my business.  Plus Ms. Andrew has been doing a good job responding and there was no sense in both of us responding to the same question.  I'll be happy to start responding when I think that I can add something to the conversation or if I can correct any false statements.

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Posted By: tracyl
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 7:12am
Ms. Andrews why are you lying about the supposed LPN's coming to the schools? The contract you voted for last night does not state that does it? We could end up with people like Lisa Lowery's sister, who has zero training other than "went to nursing school" yet has a job RIGHT now in the district in a nurse's office. Speaking of Lowery, is she out of sorority sisters yet that she can hire? How much has one of them, Joyce Stokes, cost this district in greviences?

While I appreciate you putting to rest a few of the rumors that are out there, I couldn't help but notice that you ignored a few of my questions. I now have a new one. Why is the district hiring a new admin to oversee the academic coaches? Isn't that why you have Kathy Jonas and Kathy Jones? Not sure why we need the both of them, as they no longer do professional developments and Kathy Jonas has been phased out of the ordering process as she can't get it right. She is also no longer part of the pacing guide and common assessment revision process. What exactly are we paying her for? Is she paid from the Title 1 funds I asked about (and never got an answer)? Exactly who benefits from Title 1 funds because it sure isn't the students?? What about the reading program the taxpayers bought? Why is that not supported? What about principals getting dinged on their evaluations if they suspend? Why did you not address this? Don't come on here if you aren't going to be honest because there are too many of us that are dealing with the effects of your bad decisions and cronism. You have a true mess brewing on your hands here. You and the others are dependent upon the very people you despise (apparent in your letter to Mr. Williams and your conduct during negotiations) to bring this district to where it needs to be. Now you are talking special education cuts as well. You are setting us up for failure and what it worse, you know it. If I were Rasmussen, I would be working on my resume too (that's the latest news we have heard).


Posted By: Chris Fiora
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 10:17am
tracyl,
Actually the contract states the following:
 

HCESC will provide Middletown City Schools with the following for the 2012--‐2013 school year:

􀁸

One (1) School Health Leader to coordinate the district health services program

o

The School Health Leader will be a licensed Registered Nurse.

􀁸

Ten (10) School Health Associates to provide school health services

o

School Health Associates will hold, at minimum, a license as a Licensed Practical

Nurse.
 
This is copied directly from the contract that the board approved last night.  You can see the entire contract on Board Docs.


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Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: May 01 2012 at 2:26pm
Tracyl,
As Mr. Fiora posted, the nursing contract does provide for an LPN (at a minimum) in each building.
 
I have no idea what you are referring to about Lisa Lowery's sister or sorority sister. I have no reason to doubt her professionalism. And she does not hire principals--that type of decision is made by the superintendent.
 
The district is not "bringing in a new administrator to oversee the academic coaches." The academic coaches work closely with the building principals and are supervised and trained by the department of learning, including the curriculum coordinators Kathy Jonas and Kathy Jones. So, although the professional development is no longer conducted centrally by the curriculum coordinators, there is still a lot of work to tailor the support and instruction to the needs of each teacher, while maintaining consistency district-wide and ensuring alignment with the state standards. There will be quite a bit of work required over the next two years to convert to the new Common Core State Standards. The curriculum coordinators are paid for fully with Title II-A grant funds.  While you appear not to place any value on professional development, the people who control grant money do. The intent of professional development is to support the teachers as they raise the level of their instruction and raise their expectations of students. Our feedback shows that teachers have been very happy with the new model providing professional development through academic coaches.
 
I do not know what "reading program that taxpayers bought" you are referring to.  If you mean the Reading First program, that was a grant for a limited number of years that has expired. The district's focus on reading all those years has paid off in higher reading scores across the board.
 
"why are the principals dinged on their evaluations if they suspend"--yes and no.  The board set 3 broad goals for the superintendent, which apply as appropriate down the line. They are (1) increase academic achievement as measured by the state tests; (2) improve climate in the buildings; and (3) do it in a fiscally responsible manner, avoiding the need for additional tax revenue for as long as possible without harmful impact on student programs. The superintendent is holding the principals accountable for academic achievement in their buildings, and for improving the climate in their buildings.  Climate includes both students (behavior, discipline, attendance, participation in extracurriculars, etc) and staff (morale, attendance). Definitely one of the metrics is to reduce the number of suspensions. But if a principal does that by just refusing to discipline badly behaved students and sending them back to class, staff morale will go down, and that is another one of the metrics the principal is accountable on. The district implemented this year Positive Behavioral Supports, an approach to student discipline that emphasizes teaching and re-teaching the behavior expected. If implemented properly (which requires the cooperation and participation of all staff in the building), suspensions will go down, staff morale will go up, and academic achievement will rise.
 
I do not despise any of the staff in the district, and always try to be respectful. I do not believe I was disrespectful in my response to Mr. Williams' email, but if it was perceived that way, I apologize.
 
Your final spurious allegation is to some unstated conduct of mine during negotiations. I was not part of the district negotiating team.
 
"now you are talking about special ed cuts" -- yes and no. The district's special ed services were audited by the Ohio Dept of  Education this year. The audit confirmed that alot of what we do we do well. But it also highlighted areas where we are both inefficient, and ineffective.  In other words, we are spending more money than necessary, and we are not seeing good results from that money.  So, yes, we are looking at refining some of what we do in special ed.  We expect to save some money in that process. But we also expect to see better academic performance.
 
tracyl, from your posts you appear to be an employee of MCSD.  I hope you will not take this the wrong way, but I would respectfully suggest that when you hear something that concerns you, ask your principal, or the person in charge of the program, or even the superintendent, for more information, before you jump to conclusions and spread misinformation in the community. If you ask respectfully, in the spirit of one professional to another who both want to see the district succeed, you will receive answers. I would hope that you could see that spreading misinformation and badmouthing your employer will only hurt the district in the long run, and if you hurt the credibility of the district, you will impact the ability of the district to raise tax funds that pay your salary.  We are all in this together.
 
Marcia Andrew
 


Posted By: Neil Barille
Date Posted: May 02 2012 at 10:35am
Ms. Andrew, with the recent news about Monroe and state control, there has been some talk about the state requiring them to merge with MCSD.  Can you comment on this and what would this mean?


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: May 03 2012 at 6:57am
Today's Journal......

School districts look to share services
Middletown and Monroe to team up in effort to save on maintenance

The Middletown and Monroe school districts are looking into a joint venture on maintenance services that would help each district save money WITHOUT ELIMINATING JOBS.

MIGHT BE A GOOD IDEA PACKAGING THE SERVICES TO INCLUDE THE TWO SCHOOL DISTRICTS. NICE DISCOUNT PERHAPS?

QUESTION: WHY DO THE SCHOOLS THINK THEY MUST MAINTAIN THESE CUSTODIAL JOBS? PERHAPS THE SERVICES COULD USE THEIR OWN PEOPLE AND THE DISTRICTS WOULDN'T HAVE TO ABSORB THE WAGES, BENNIE AND RETIREMENT COSTS OF THE CUSTODIANS. THEY DOWNSIZED SOME TEACHERS AND SOME ADMIN. POSITIONS DIDN'T THEY? SEEMS THE SCHOOLS (AND THE GOVERNMENT- HAVE SEEN IT HERE AT WRIGHT-PATT) HAVE A POLICY AT TIMES, THAT PAINS THEM TO DOWNSIZE THEIR PEOPLE, WHETHER THEY ARE NEEDED OR NOT. PRIVATE INDUSTRY DOWNSIZES ON A REGULAR BASIS, SAVING ON RETIREMENT AND WAGE COSTS. THEY CAN PAY A NEW HIRE A LOWER WAGE AND ARE NOT PUTTING BUCKS IN THEIR RETIREMENT LIKE AN OLDER EMPLOYEE IS RECEIVING. THREE TIMES FOR ME SINCE 1994. YOU'RE JUST A NUMBER. YOU SURVIVE AND MOVE ON.


Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: May 03 2012 at 9:40am
Mr. Barille, to my knowledge 2 districts cannot be forced to consolidate, unless both agree. If the state takes control of Monroe, they can force Monroe to agree, but they cannot force Middletown to agree. No one has approached us about this. We would have to evaluate all aspects to determine if it would be beneficial overall for Middletown. Could facilities and services be integrated in a way that would save money, or would we essentially have to operate 2 districts? Could people and culture be integrated? Given the history, that might be very hard.
 
Marcia Andrew


Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: May 03 2012 at 9:46am
Vet, looking at industry standards, we may have not enough custodians but more maintenance and utility workers than we need. We may be able to restructure the way services are delivered, so that we have more custodians, but who also perform maintenance services. Besides the humane point of treating our staff fairly, there is a benefit to the district of keeping long-term staff who know and care for our students. Especially the day-time staff who are in our buildings when the kids are, many of them build relationships with the students over time.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: May 03 2012 at 11:10am
Ms. Andrew: "We may be able to restructure the way services are delivered, so that we have more custodians, but who also perform maintenance services"

SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA TO ME.

Ms. Andrew: "Besides the humane point of treating our staff fairly, there is a benefit to the district of keeping long-term staff who know and care for our students"

AHH, THE HUMAN ELEMENT IN THE WORK ENVIRONMENT. DON'T ALWAYS HAVE THAT IN CORPORATE AMERICA. A "CORPORATE WORLD" COMPANY LIKE P&G (OR INTERNATIONAL PAPER) DOESN'T CARE TO THAT DEGREE ABOUT THE EMPLOYEE......JUST THE BOTTOM LINE. PEOPLE WHO HAVE, OR ARE WORKING FOR THEM, PROBABLY, AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER, HAVE FELT THIS WAY. "KEEPING LONG TERM STAFF" IS A DETRIMENT FOR CORPORATE AMERICA. THEY WANT YOU OUT AND RETIRED. PAYING YOU THE BIG BUCKS AND RETIREMENT ACCUMULATED OVER MANY YEARS (AND A MONEY DRAIN TO THEM), WHEN THEY COULD HIRE A YOUNG PERSON, MOLD THEM IN THEIR WAY (ALSO CALLED "PROCTORIZING THEM") AND SPEND MUCH LESS MONEY ON WAGES AND RETIREMENT.

Ms. Andrew: "Especially the day-time staff who are in our buildings when the kids are, many of them build relationships with the students over time".

HOW IMPORTANT IS BUILDING A RELATIONSHIP WITH A STUDENT? THE STUDENT IS GOING TO BE THERE FOR A BRIEF PERIOD OF TIME BEFORE MOVING ON. IS IT MORE IMPORTANT TO TEACH AND PREPARE THEM FOR THE WORKING WORLD, OR TO BE THEIR FRIEND? NOT TO BE CALLOUS HERE, BUT IT SEEMS THAT THE "FEELINGS/BEING A BUDDY" PORTION OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM IS TRUMPING THE MEAT AND POTATOES PART OF IT. YOU'LL HAVE TO EXCUSE ME FOR BEING OLD SCHOOL WHEN THE EDUCATORS EFFECTIVELY TAUGHT, EXPECTATIONS WHERE MADE CLEAR, DISCIPLINE WAS IN PLACE, AND RESULTS ATTAINED IN A STRUCTURED ENVIRONMENT WHERE EDUCATORS DID NOT BUILD RELATIONSHIPS AS THEY DO NOW, BUT RATHER "KEPT A DISTANCE" BETWEEN STUDENT AND TEACHER. IT WORKED BACK THEN. NOT SO SURE THE NEW WAYS ARE AS EFFECTIVE. JMO



Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: May 03 2012 at 1:21pm
Vet, I hear what you are saying about "old school" ways. Those ways did appear to work then, for most students. But, times have changed and students have changed. Research on "best practices," what works in underperforming, socioeconomically challenged school districts, shows that schools need to connect with students, to build relationships with the students, before we can ever hope to teach them. Sadly, a fair number of students have no positive relationships with adults outside of school. They won't respect authority and follow expected rules of behavior when they have no history of trusting adults. And, "building a relationship" does not mean being their buddy, necessarily, but showing that the adult cares about that kid as an individual, and, because they care, has high expectations for how they will behave and perform academically.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: May 03 2012 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by Marcia Andrew Marcia Andrew wrote:

Vet, I hear what you are saying about "old school" ways. Those ways did appear to work then, for most students. But, times have changed and students have changed. Research on "best practices," what works in underperforming, socioeconomically challenged school districts, shows that schools need to connect with students, to build relationships with the students, before we can ever hope to teach them. Sadly, a fair number of students have no positive relationships with adults outside of school. They won't respect authority and follow expected rules of behavior when they have no history of trusting adults. And, "building a relationship" does not mean being their buddy, necessarily, but showing that the adult cares about that kid as an individual, and, because they care, has high expectations for how they will behave and perform academically.


Ms. Andrew, consider this as an alternative relating to our discussion.

In military basic training (doesn't matter the branch of service), there is an accumulation of many different types of people representing as diverse a background as any found in your school system. From farm boy to inner city gang member to California "surfer dude". Their activity and life-changing situation (converting them from "do as I please" civilian attitude, to a "you'll do as your told, when you're told world) is handled through being manipulated by the drill instructor's techniques and by listening to and doing exactly as trained. Otherwise, you will live in a world of hurt (other word used here). It is a classic rewards/penalties behavior system. This system has been around for decades and is time-proven for effectiveness in converting large numbers toward a single behavior pattern. There is no coddling, no mercy and no "being a friend" between the troops and the drill instructor. Yet, at the end of the basic training period, the once out of control behavior has been eliminated. The once shy, non-aggressive, easily bullied person is taught a lesson in self-esteem and given a more aggressive attitude and, in general, each person has grown up a little for the effort made to motivate them. Again, all done with discipline, aggressive life-altering environments and hardly a friendly relationship between student and teacher. Just pointing out, positive results can be accomplished by taking the hard-nosed approach rather that being "kinder/gentler" or a friend to the students. IMO, sometimes we coddle to younger generation too much and it only results in generating weaker personalities to cope with the real world. JMO


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: May 03 2012 at 6:32pm
No child left behind accomplished what?

Yes/ No----John Kerry nuances.

Reform school and junior military camps have their place being kindred spirits to boot camp. Public education is not boot camp.


-------------
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: May 03 2012 at 9:07pm
acclaro:

"Public education is not boot camp".

No, not in the purest sense.

Ahh, but there are similarities. Both have people attending from all walks of life. Both are conducted as "institutions" with large numbers who gather generating large multi-faceted problems. Both depend on control to function. (although I question the control of the current school climate as opposed to the old climate). Both target instructional means to accomplish the training required to fulfill the end result. Both rely on motivation and the reward/punishment system. Both take people from all walks of life and attempt to condition them to learn a common focus. Both attempt to achieve success through their efforts, albeit dissimilar in certain procedures to attain that success. Both deal with different levels of the economic and social status. JMO


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: May 04 2012 at 7:25am
But there is one difference. Soldiers are trained to kill, to respond without question to an order, to survive and for their platoon to survive. Moreover,, students are not trained to fight. They are also restricted within any school district in Ohio as to how discipline, including paddling, etc., can be used (if it can be used- I believe it has been all but abandoned."

While agreeing with you discipline has its place, as does tough love, it is virtully impossible to implement it in today's legislative;y "soft'" public school limitations.


-------------
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: May 04 2012 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by acclaro acclaro wrote:

But there is one difference. Soldiers are trained to kill, to respond without question to an order, to survive and for their platoon to survive. Moreover,, students are not trained to fight. They are also restricted within any school district in Ohio as to how discipline, including paddling, etc., can be used (if it can be used- I believe it has been all but abandoned."While agreeing with you discipline has its place, as does tough love, it is virtully impossible to implement it in today's legislative;y "soft'" public school limitations.



Whoops! Now wait a minute acclaro. You are generalizing on the military, suggesting in your post that "soldiers are trained to kill". Might apply to certain MOS's in the Marines, Army Rangers and Green Beret and the SEALS in the Navy, but, in general, the military offers training in "non-killing professions such as the medical field (to work in the base hospitals), computer programming and repair, Military Police work that makes a fine transition to law enforcement in civilian life, high tech training such as flying Predators by computer and upscale guidance equipment, air traffic controller training from the Air Force and many other AFSC's that don't include killing. All of us know the military has become high tech and is in touch with the modern day world. Again, I contend there are similarities between public education and the military and that a scaled-down, less harsh version of the military would work in the schools. You are correct in your statement that the world of education is run with a soft/kinder/gentler/"make the kids candy-a-----" mentality.......and what has that gotten us to date? The system has become a joke to the kids because the system has eliminated real consequences for their actions. The are laughing at the system and the "adults" that have set it up don't have a clue why there is disrespect for authority. JMO


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: May 04 2012 at 6:49pm
Vet, I was just kidding you, I totally get your point and agree. But in fairness to the administrators and the Board, they have limited ability to discipline besides expulsion and detention. When they expel, they hurt their revenue stream, when they give detention, for a problem kid, who cares----they don't. A vicious cycle.

My father was the great Santini, I got paddled often, and rarely, for good cause. I never paddled my two children ever. Positive reinforcement works, smacking a kid doesn't, and one good, caring teacher can make the difference in anyone's life.


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: May 05 2012 at 10:26am

Gentlemen
    I’m sure years ago that you have heard your family state that a child had “bad blood” or was “born bad”.  It took me many years to understand what the elders were really saying.
    Today we use different terms to describe these children depending upon their age, ADD, ADHD, ODD or BiPolar. Mental illness can start at a very young age. In later years the majority of these same children will be diagnosed as BiPolar. If you look into their family background you may find a parent that suffers from mental illness.
    Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) seems to show up in Junior High School age children. No rules or amount of discipline will work on these children. The schools nor the teachers can fix a child with mental illness.
    Without medication and a lot of hard work by the parents these same defiant teenagers will end up filling our courts and prisons.
    So is it a health issue or an educational issue that we need to solve? Or maybe it’s both.    
   




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