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Bond Issue

Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Schools
Forum Name: School Tax Issues
Forum Description: Discuss past, current and upcoming tax issues.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5402
Printed Date: Aug 24 2019 at 3:26am


Topic: Bond Issue
Posted By: 409
Subject: Bond Issue
Date Posted: Aug 03 2013 at 12:37am
From MJ:
Campaign begins for Middletown bond issue
By http://www.middletownjournal.com/staff/hannah-poturalski/" rel="nofollow - Staff Writer

MIDDLETOWN —

Anyone interested in helping a grassroots effort to support a bond issue for Middletown City Schools this November can attend an informational meeting on Monday.

Katie McNeil, school board member, said everyone is welcome to a 7 p.m. meeting Monday at First United Methodist Church, 120 South Broad Street, Middletown. Monday also marks the three-month countdown to the Nov. 5 election.

“We need citizens and people who believe school facilities are important for the community and our children,” McNeil said.

In recent weeks, the school board approved placing a $55 million bond issue on the Nov. 5 ballot. The 3.95-mill bond issue and 0.26-mill permanent improvement levy would support construction of a new middle school next to the high school and renovations to the high school, including a new competition gym, auditorium and additional classroom space.

Revenue from the bond issue will be coupled with a $40 million share paid by the Ohio School Facilities Commission’s Classroom Facilities Assistance Program.

During the kick-off meeting Monday, a consultant from Columbus will talk about past successful levy campaigns and Joe DeLuca from Fanning Howey architecture firm will outline Middletown’s facilities master plan.

McNeil said she’s hoping for a good turnout of residents to help lead the levy campaign with community outreach and marketing.

McNeil said the bond issue information will also be available at a booth during National Night Out from 5 to 9 p.m. Tuesday at Sunset Park, 201 Bellemonte St.

Residents can also email VoteMiddies@gmail.com with questions about the November election.




Replies:
Posted By: Miss Kitty
Date Posted: Aug 03 2013 at 11:50am
Do not vote for ANY bond issue. We pay to many taxes as it is now...


Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Aug 03 2013 at 12:09pm

A new levy along with the future quadrupling of city water rates I think will be the straw that broke this camels back, any section 8 slumlords out there interested in buying a house that's slightly upside down on its mortgage ??



Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 03 2013 at 1:05pm
Is there no end to the school people asking for more? Some of the highest property taxes in the area and the lowest performing schools. Inverted. The school board only listens to those who support their cause. They never consider what impact their wishes have upon the working people of this city. The property owners are paying too many taxes on property that has decreased in value and won't sell......but they don't care about those things, do they.

(This is for you chmoore).....and shouldn't they be raising those pesky indicators that have been stuck on 6 out of 26 for years and showing more progress than to be at the bottom of the performance list Alot of money being plowed into a low performer to make it a good ROI. Fancy schools with no content.

There you go bud. Got that out of the way for August.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Aug 03 2013 at 1:53pm
Simply drive down Thornhill and the nice side of Curryer and see how houses sold at 50% of what they were on market.

When Becker was put in place as city manager and failed to get the 2.0% tax levy passed, they brought in his friends that sit on council, Mulligan(s), Picard, Mort. They fully intend to raise taxes to 2.25%, next stop at 2.0, and the school levy.

They put the school admin in city hall so they could share voter block data.

A 600,000 house in Scottsdale AZ has property tax lower than a 125,000 house in Middletown.

Better wake up people. Pass these levies, and your house will be sitting for a decade; bad enough its 6 years today.

  


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Aug 03 2013 at 1:57pm
It actually seems that Middletown City Council and Public Schools have combined on a strategy to insure "lifetime residence" in the city. Just make the taxes so high and the property value so low that no one can afford to sell their house and take such a huge loss. That way, there is a captive crowd to support all of the "grand ideas" that come out of city hall! 


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Aug 03 2013 at 2:33pm
TonyB, that truly is the strategy of the city of Middletown and school system.

I know there are houses in Middletown, the court, the county treasurer office, and the city, target in tandem, to monitor foreclosure and pass the leads to LLC's, friends of city hall, to purchase. I also agree, even if you were joking, it is a fact, the city is attempting to raise rates and taxes so high, you can't get out, you can't sell your property, and are stuck in quicksand. That is THEIR strategy.

Hell, to beat it all---these voting blocking will give Marcia Andrew, Chris Fiora, and Katie McNeil a tax levy that passes, the city a 2.25% tax rate, and only those like the docs, attorneys that have been here all their life, and those feasting off the city in the parasitic relationship, around.

Disgusting isn't it. And what you said, maybe in jest....is very true. 


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Aug 03 2013 at 2:54pm
I don't think Mort or Picard served on council together. Mort was brought in by Judy,BFF'S you know.


Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Aug 03 2013 at 3:48pm
Just for the record,Chris Fiora hasn't been on the school board for months. He and his family moved to West Chester.
       pn


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 04 2013 at 1:32am
Vet: thanks for using your "trump card" early. This way we don't have to wonder when it's going to happen.  It makes everyone so edgy.  Good choice!  Now, see how easy that is, and how helpful for the entire group?  "6 out of 26 indicators"....it does have a nice ring to it.    chmoore


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 04 2013 at 8:02am
Originally posted by chmoore1 chmoore1 wrote:



Vet: thanks for using your "trump card" early. This way we don't have to wonder when it's going to happen.  It makes everyone so edgy.  Good choice!  Now, see how easy that is, and how helpful for the entire group?  "6 out of 26 indicators"....it does have a nice ring to it.    chmoore


You bet ch. Glad to help those on the other side of the fence. When are you school and school supporter folks going to fix it so it's no longer an issue?....or will it be business as usual?

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 04 2013 at 5:33pm
I'd say...when I get to spend $8.00/month more on my taxes so we can have a new middle school and RENOVATED----which people talk about on here---high school.   Get rid of that giant elephant of the 90 year old "MHS" which is so outdated and inadequate and get a replacement at no-cost (the state owes us $40 million which will be completely lost if we do nothing.  There...that ought to start your head to burst.  (JK)    chmoore, my friend.  Heck, I spend almost $8.00/month on the senior citizens levy.


Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Aug 04 2013 at 9:45pm
Nicely said chmoore! Oh and VET!!!! I have never left!!!!!


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 4:49am
ch:

"when I get to spend $8.00/month more on my taxes so we can have a new middle school and RENOVATED----which people talk about on here---high school."

JUST CURIOUS....AND WHAT WILL THE NEW MIDDLE SCHOOL AND RENOVATED HIGH SCHOOL GET US FOR OUR MONEY? DID IT GET ANY OF US ANYTHING (OTHER THAN FANCY NEW SCHOOLS) WITH THE $45 MILLION BOND APPROVAL MONEY SPENT ON THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS? KINDA PROVES THAT NEW FACILITIES DON'T NECESSARILY GET US IMPROVED PERFORMANCE, DOESN'T IT? DO YOU THINK YOU RECEIVED A GOOD ROI ON YOUR ELEMENTARY BOND APPROVAL VOTE?

ch:

"Get rid of that giant elephant of the 90 year old "MHS" which is so outdated and inadequate and get a replacement at no-cost (the state owes us $40 million which will be completely lost if we do nothing"

"COMPLETELY FREE"? HOW? THE STATE IS CHIPPING IN ON THE COST BUT NOT PAYING FOR THE ENTIRE THING, RIGHT? IF SO, THEN WHY ARE WE BEING ASKED TO VOTE ON A BOND LEVY? OUR SHARE OF THE DEAL, RIGHT?

ch:

"when I get to spend $8.00/month more on my taxes"
"Heck, I spend almost $8.00/month on the senior citizens levy"

BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT. THE OLD "BUT IT'LL ONLY COST YOU A FEW CUPS OF COFFEE PER MONTH" ROUTINE DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE. IT'S ALL ABOUT PUTTING GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD NO MATTER WHAT THE AMOUNT. THE JOURNAL COULD BE ONLY TEN BUCKS A MONTH, BUT IF YOU NEVER READ IT OR FIND IT SUBPAR, YOU STOP SUBSCRIBING TO IT DON'T YOU. SAME HERE WITH ME. I DON'T SEE ANY VALUE ADDED ISSUES NOR REASONABLE PROGRESS WITH THE SCHOOLS, THEREFORE, I VOTE NO ON ALL LEVIES. I AGREE WITH YOU THAT 8 BUCKS A MONTH ISN'T MUCH TO ASK, BUT ISN'T THE REAL CONCERN HERE WHAT WE'RE ALL GETTING FOR OUR MONEY EVERY TIME THEY ASK FOR MORE? THE DATA DOESN'T LIE. ARE YOU HAPPY WITH THE PROGRESS OF THE SCHOOL PERFORMANCE GIVEN THE MONEY SPENT ON THEIR GRAND SCHEME OVER THE LAST THREE DECADES? WHAT HAS ENDEARED YOU TO OFFER YOUR SUPPORT WHEN REASONABLE PROGRESS HASN'T BEEN MADE, GIVEN THE MANY LEVIES THAT HAVE PASSED?


OH, AND STANKY, I DIDN'T KNOW YOU LEFT OLD BUDDY. WHERE DID YOU GO? KINDA MISSED ARGUING WITH YOU ABOUT THE SCHOOLS. ENJOY ch's RESPONSES THOUGH. EXCELLENT.


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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 8:12am
Vet:  I knew my stock in "Duck Tape" would go up on that one---hopefully, you have some spare rolls on hand to keep your head from exploding.  Just a couple of questions: (1) let's say that there are some students that---for whatever reason---are never going to get to the standards set by the state/government. Should all the rest of the students---the GREAT MAJORITY--- be punished by not having modern buildings in which to learn and thrive?  (2) Do those same students (the ones who can't pass the tests) have any value and deserve to learn and retain what they can? (3) We still don't have an answer to the "Vail" situation: a 90 year old building that costs a ton of money to heat and maintain. What is the answer for the next 10+ years? Let it continue to deteriorate to nothing, and then build a new middle school without the state's participation?  Vet, the state's participation is real---and it will go away if we do nothing.  Please understand and address that.  $40 million WILL pay for the new middle school.  With or without the state's money, Middletown will need a new middle school in the coming years. It will cost as much or more to renovate it, and we'll still have an inadequate building.  Also, not to stir the pot, but you did vote for a levy this past year---the Senior Citizen's levy.  Just tryin' to keep the record straight. Vet, I just re-read your post comment about "...completely free"; yes, the state's money will completely pay for the new middle school.  The bond levy's real cost to the local taxpayers is for the RENOVATED---NOT NEW---high school.  Two totally separate items.   As always, I'm just chmoore.


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 8:51am
If we had academic performance like Springboro and Mason, then a new school would make sense. But to say a New School would bring about better performance is just a lie. All new schools are going to do is trick new people not from this area into thinking that Middletown has great schools when in fact the test scores just don't show it.

Just look at what people on what GreatSchools.org rate Middletown Schools. http://www.zillow.com/middletown-oh/schools/" rel="nofollow - http://www.zillow.com/middletown-oh/schools/

Besides I would like my $8.00 a month go to repaving our streets. That alone will increase property values, which will in turn increase revenues to the schools. Imagine that ;)


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 8:54am
cmoore.... using your logic, why should I or any taxpayer who has seen a decline in property valuation go down from where valuation was nearly 25 years ago (it should be double by simply adding in CPI), absorb the cost for the school buildings when my children went to private school, are out of school, and less than 25% of property owners in Middletown have students that even attend a school within the system?

As for the needy, poor, disenfranchised, child "entitled" to the Ritz Carlton of a school building, it seemed many thrived attending the one room school house years ago.

There is absolutely no justification for this levy, it must go down in defeat.

Additionally...using your analogy....why have the standards against performance been stuck on not gain---when new schools were built?

ANSWER- there is no direct correlation between test scoring and standard results against 'new buildings' and amenities. Intellect determines performance, not the thickness of carpet, brick, or eco- thermodynamic ac/heat.     

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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 8:59am
"OH, AND STANKY, I DIDN'T KNOW YOU LEFT OLD BUDDY. WHERE DID YOU GO? KINDA MISSED ARGUING WITH YOU ABOUT THE SCHOOLS. ENJOY ch's RESPONSES THOUGH. EXCELLENT"

MY MISTAKE.......SMARTMAN.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 8:59am
If anything the School Board should be yelling at the city about doing something to raise property Values in Middletown. Instead of trying to pass another school levy, which will drive more people out of Middletown, and decrease your revenues again. Raising Taxes is not the Answer, it is only a temporary fix to a bigger problem.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 9:15am
ch, please see ktf1179 and acclaros posts. I rest my case. The school supporters and school admin. still tie new facilities to better performance. You are attempting to do it here. Again, we do have a glimpse of that philosophy with the new elementaries. They have been in place long enough to develop a trend. Question for you......Look at the student performance with the old elementaries of a decade ago and compare the performance with students educated in the new elementaries. Any significant improvement? 45 million worth? Was it worth it to build new elementaries as to ROI?

Yes I voted for the seniors levy for selfish reasons. We use their transportation services for the wife in the wheelchair. To be fair, I would suspect people who vote for the school levies do it for the same reason-the need for the service. Your point is?

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 9:27am
Having gone to Springboro Schools in the 80's and 90's, we had great performing schools without any new school buildings. Springboro really didn't get any new schools until the late 90's. Heck our Jr., High School at the time was built in 1908, and had no A/C, and asbestos, all over the place, but we still got a good quality education. The reason was due to the teachers and parents caring about the students success. I do believe that Middletown schools can be as good as Springboro and Mason, but it will take the teachers, and parents to make the difference not a building.


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 11:02am

KTF1179/Acclaro//Vet:  Once again, none of you addressed what to do with our 90 year old monster.  Ignore it for 10 more years and THEN do something/nothing about it? Under full local cost?  Never addressed the other questions that I asked.  Vet, it's ok, in your opinion, to have your "selfish reasons" but anyone who wants to support the school levy for ANY reason is a "kool-aid drinker."  Please answer the questions: (1) what is your long-term plan for the middle school?  (2) Why punish all the students because of some?  Perhaps, just like when all the rest of us went to school----including me---students didn't perform to their potential. I know I didn't.     By the way, I have NEVER tied new schools to performance.  We need new/renovated buildings because the others are not functional for today's learners---at any level.    Just 1 chmoore.

Acclaro: good point about the one room school house. North, South and Central Schools all lasted less than 80 years  Each were replaced with unair conditioned buildings because that''s what they had in the early '50s. Each one room school house was ultimately replaced by the "newer, better version."  Thank goodness our forefathers provided...


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 11:17am
As for a work around to the middle school issue you can expand existing schools in order to make a dedicated middle school out of an existing building. You can try to revolted the existing middle school to bring it up to code. You can build a new middle school that doesn't need the latest and greatest equipment, and luxuries. That way you show the tax payers that you truly care about staying within budget. I will make a deal try to get the monthly cost to the tax payer down to only $5 a month then you will have my vote then.
Just keep in mind the the majority of the people in Middletown make less than 40k a year. And what doesn't seem that much to you can really break the bank for some people.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 11:21am
chmoore....again....if I used your analogy, you would be the cause of the housing market collapse in 2008, because everyone in the United States, deserved a house. As they deserved a house, which they could not afford, the market crashed, all your fault based upon same analogy.

I believe countless individuals, myself included, have stated updating the features which might be providing a better return Cost of Ownership such as heating, would be a consideration as an alternative. The argument, "we have to grab that state money" is akin to a compulsive shopper buying the 51st pair of shoes, because it was on sale, the deal too good to pass up?

Raising taxes when Middletown is so down in its property valuation just adds to a dismal situation, and economic pain, not creating a catalyst for growth and prosperity.

The prudent strategy would be be await to see how Middletown turns around with that expansive growth from the Atriium and Cincinnati State, not load additional tax burden on a ship already sinking. Usually, it has been my observation chmoore, that when a boat is sinking, you throw water out of it, not pour it in. But....there are too many compulsive shoppers in Middletown, that spend like they have the use of others credit cards, they do. Until Middletown adults act like West Chester and Springboro, the city and its residents continue to sink underwater.

City hall as all the life rafts and preservers. The others----about to perish with such nonsensical overload of debt.  .      

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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 11:52am
So-- what happens to the old hs, now a middle school, when it is closed?
Can the system afford to tear it down?
Will it be looted of any valuable woodwork or fixtures like the other schools were?
Will the property be sold?
Will the taxpayers get good bang for their buck through salvage/sales?


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 11:59am
ch, where did I say that all who support the schools are "kool-aid drinkers"? I said that, just as I had a selfish reason for supporting the seniors levy, I would imagine school levy supporters have their reasons too. Check the post once again.

ch:

"Once again, none of you addressed what to do with our 90 year old monster. Ignore it for 10 more years and THEN do something/nothing about it? Under full local cost?"

OK, THEN WHY DO WE SEE 100+ YEAR OLD BUILDINGS ON THE NOTRE DAME, DUKE, AND OTHER PRESIGIOUS COLLEGE CAMPUSES THAT SEEM TO HAVE GREAT SUCCESS IN EDUCATING THE YOUNGER PEOPLE? THEY GET A GOOD EDUCATION OUT OF OLD BUILDINGS. BY YOUR LOGIC, IN ORDER FOR THE YOUNG PEOPLE TO RECEIVE A GOOD EDUCATION FROM THESE UNIVERSITIES, ALL OLD BUILDINGS NEED TO BE TORN DOWN AND REPLACED BY NEWER, MORE MODERN FACILITIES.

ch:

Please answer the questions: (1) what is your long-term plan for the middle school?

UPGRADE THE SCHOOL TO PROVIDE WHAT WOULD BE OFFERED IN YOUR NEW SCHOOL BUILDINGS. VAIL (OLD MIDD. HIGH TO ME) HAS LASTED FOR WHAT, CLOSE TO 100 YEARS. DOUBT VERY SERIOUSLY THAT WE WILL GET THAT MILEAGE OUT OF THE NEW MIDDLE SCHOOL YOU ARE PROPOSING.

ch:

2) Why punish all the students because of some?

I THOUGHT WE HAD OTHER ALTERNATIVES TO EDUCATING THE STUDENTS THAT DIDN'T PERFORM AS WELL AS THE MAINSTREAM. ISN'T THE PURPOSE OF THE ALTERNATIVE EDUCATION TO PREVENT STUDENTS FROM FAILING AND DROPPING OUT ALTOGETHER? FURTHERMORE, WHY DO YOU REFER TO "PUNISHING ALL THE STUDENTS BECAUSE OF SOME"? BECAUSE THE STUDENTS DON"T GET FANCY NEW DIGS PUNISHES THEM? HOW DO YOU FIGURE?

ch:

"By the way, I have NEVER tied new schools to performance"

UHH, I BELIEVE YOU HAVE. I BELIEVE THE SCHOOL PEOPLE (PRICE) MADE THAT CLAIM BEFORE THE ELEMENTARIES WERE BUILT. SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF BUILD THE NEW SCHOOLS AND WATCH THE PERFORMANCE IMPROVE.

ch:

"We need new/renovated buildings because the others are not functional for today's learners---at any level."

BUT CH, THE NEW BUILDINGS WITH ALL THE LATEST BELLS AND WHISTLES ARE NOT PRODUCING ANY BETTER RESULTS THAN THE OLD BUILDINGS DID. THAT SUGGESTS THAT THE "FUNCTIONALITY FOR TODAY'S LEARNERS" AS YOU PUT IT, DOESN'T TRANSLATE TO AUTOMATIC IMPROVEMENT. AS OF THIS DATE, YOU CAN NOT MAKE THAT STATEMENT WITH ANY VALIDITY. IT HASN'T PROVEN TO BE SO IN THE ELEMENTARIES.

NOW, ADDRESS MY QUESTION TO YOU, WHICH YOU FAILED TO DO.

HAVE THE NEW ELEMENTARIES GIVEN US ANY BETTER RESULTS, AFTER A SUFFICIENT NUMBER OF YEARS, COMPARED TO THE PERFORMANCE FROM THE OLD ELEMENTARIES? AND IF SO, 45 MILLION MORE? OW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE PERFORMANCE TO DATE FROM THE NEW SCHOOLS?

I STILL MAINTAIN THAT THE CORRECT CURRICULUM, PRESENTED IN THE CLASSROOM WITH THE PROPER TECHNIQUE THAT WILL ATTRACT THE INTEREST OF THE STUDENT, COUPLED WITH A CONTROLLED CLASSROOM ATMOSPHERE AND STUDENT PARTICIPATION, FREE OF INTERRUPTIONS AND PROBLEM STUDENTS, WILL GET THE JOB DONE, NO MATTER HOW OLD THE BUILDING IN WHICH THAT CLASSROOM RESIDES. IT IS CONTENT DELIVERED TO THE STUDENT AND STUDENT INTEREST THAT TRUMPS NEW/OLD BUILDINGS IMO. THE FOCUS IS WHAT THE STUDENT IS ABSORBING, NOT WHERE THEY ARE SITTING.   

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 3:59pm

Vet: I have NEVER said that new buildings would raise test scores.  New buildings replace old, out-dated buildings.  "I THOUGHT WE HAD OTHER ALTERNATIVES TO EDUCATING THE STUDENTS THAT DIDN'T PERFORM AS WELL AS THE MAINSTREAM. ISN'T THE PURPOSE OF THE ALTERNATIVE EDUCATION TO PREVENT STUDENTS FROM FAILING AND DROPPING OUT ALTOGETHER."  ?  The answer doesn't fit the question----Why do all the Johnnys and Marys that are learning not get the tools necsaary to keep up with the Mason and Lakota Schools?  Listen, once again: to renovate Vail to state standards is as expensive as building a new building, AND THE STATE WON'T LET YOU DO THAT IF RENOVATION COSTS ARE  66% OF A NEW SCHOOL.  Middletown taxpayers would again lose the the very dollars necesasary to pay for the new school.  ACCLARO: let's use your analogy to the 100 year old buildings at Duke, Yale, Harvard, etc.  Let's see, how are those colleges funded again?  Oh, yeah, TUITION at $50,000 per student .  Oh, yeah---and Room and Board.  Yeah, that's the ticket!  Have you seen any articles lately about the cost of college going up?  Sure, you can renovate Vail---have you been in there lately?  Try the fourth floor.  Classroom sizes are less than 750 sq. ft.  State standards (which everyone on here raves about) are 900.  Spiderjohn: with respect, I will answer your questions separately since this post is getting long.   Just 1 chmoore.



Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 4:03pm
Vet: by the way, I have NEVER argued about college buildings being torn down. You continue to confuse me with someone else. Here's a good question for you: if Duke, etc. owned Middletown Middle School, and wanted to renovate it, would it cost more for the college to do it, or more for Middletown City Schools to do it.  And, whichever is more costly, why do think that would be?   Just 1 chmoore.


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 4:13pm
Speiderjohn:  So-- what happens to the old hs, now a middle school, when it is closed?
Can the system afford to tear it down?
Will it be looted of any valuable woodwork or fixtures like the other schools were?
Will the property be sold?
Will the taxpayers get good bang for their buck through salvage/sales?
As I understand from the board minutes, the old HS will be torn down along with Wade E. Miller, the annex building, the cafeteria and the Warehouse (old shop) building.  The demolition cost is in the price. I have no idea about the looting, either past or future.  I would think that property would be sold, just guessing...that's up to the board at that time I would think. Have no clue about the "bang for the buck through salvage."  I guess that would be up to the architectural firm that does the project.   Just 1 chmoore.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 5:22pm
chmoore----

Georgia Tech is introducing an online, Master Degree program in Computer Science, cost for two years (MS)? $7,000.

Enrollment will be 10,000 students. They intend to change the paradigm associated with tenure, brick and mortar, and this nonsense that school costs go up 10% annually.

The state of Ohio overs online high school education. That provides parity.

Brick and mortar is wasteful.  


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 5:48pm
Acclaro: I couldn't agree more about an on-line master's degree.  I got an MPA two years ago from Capella online.  This, however, is about 4 years-old to 18 years-old, not 21-60 year-old students.  Also, Louise McBain, my old MHS Algebra 2 teacher, used to fret about those prodigy children who started college at 12 years old: she constantly worried about who they would take to homecoming.  Same is true for on-line courses.  Capella wouldn't let me on the football team because I couldn't make it to the games.   Just 1 chmoore.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 6:08pm
Well chmoore---that's easy to address. The students go "virtual" to the prom, dance, football game, you name it. With your background in public health, as the levy failed for that in Middletown by about 20%; what are the odds the school levy will fail?

What is making the masses leave Middletown is its reputation it is "public sector" haven, meaning, either you work in the public sector, and you support each others levies, school, city, fire/ police, or you get out. If you are in private sector (I am), you get out.


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: LMAO
Date Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 9:33pm
I'd love to go in the buildings before the are tore down to look around and maybe buy some things.Big smile


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 12:20am
Acclaro:  Master of Public Administration, not public health.   Just 1 chmoore


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 6:39am
ch:

"Vet: by the way, I have NEVER argued about college buildings being torn down"

DON'T THINK I SAID YOU DID. THE SUBJECT IS IN THE MIDD. SCHOOL REALM ON BUILDING TEAR DOWNS, NOT THE COLLEGE BUILDINGS, RIGHT? I WAS USING THE AGE OF THE COLLEGE BUILDINGS THAT ARE AS OLD (OR OLDER) THAN VAIL TO MAKE A POINT.... THAT BEING, THAT A STUDENT CAN GET A GOOD EDUCATION IN AN OLD BUILDING AS WELL AS A BRAND NEW ONE. JUST DEPENDS ON THE CURRICULUM, THE METHOD OF INSTRUCTION FOR MATERIAL RETENTION AND THE CLASSROOM ENVIRONMENT.

BY THE WAY, I HAD MCBAIN FOR SENIOR TRIG, GEOMETRY AND PRELIM. TO CALCULUS BACK IN 66. GREAT TEACHER. UNFORTUNATELY, THE CALC COURSE DIDN'T PREPARE ME FOR FRESHMAN CALC WITH KATHIE MULLIGAN AT MUM THE FIRST YEAR IT OPENED. COURSE ENDED WITH LIMITS AND MULLIGAN STARTED WITH LIMITS. SHE MOVED THROUGH THE COURSE AT A FAST PACE AND CALC WAS COMPLICATED TO ME.

I WILL ASK THE QUESTION FOR THE THIRD TIME.......

WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS FROM THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS BEFORE THE TEAR DOWNS AND WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS WITH THE NEW SCHOOLS? ARE THEY VASTLY IMPROVED AND IF SO, WAS IT WORTH THE 45 MILLION TO SEE THE IMROVEMENT? DID THE TAXPAYER GET A GOOD ROI? AND IF THE ANSWER IS NO, WHY DO WE WANT TO REPEAT THE SCENARIO WITH ANOTHER BOND LEVY, KNOWING THE FIRST DID NOT YIELD ANY BETTER RESULTS?......OTHER THAN A "USE IT OR LOSE IT 40 MILLION FROM THE STATE" OF COURSE.

ch:

Here's a good question for you: if Duke, etc. owned Middletown Middle School, and wanted to renovate it, would it cost more for the college to do it, or more for Middletown City Schools to do it. And, whichever is more costly, why do think that would be?

I WOULD FIRST NEED TO KNOW HOW MUCH HELP IN FINANCING DUKE WOULD GET AS OPPOSED TO MIDD SCHOOLS. NOT FAMILIAR WITH THAT FINANCING AND WHAT IS AVAILABLE THROUGH ANY FED OR STATE PROGRAMS TO AID IN THE MONEY AREA. I WOULD IMAGINE THE COLLEGE WOULD HAVE AN EASIER TIME RENOVATING VAIL AS THEY HAVE A GREATER MONEY TAP FROM TUITIONS, BENEFACTORS AND RESEARCH PROJECTS. MIDD. SCHOOLS HAVE ONLY THE POOR, MIDDLE AND LOWER MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE TO BLEED DRY FOR THEIR MONEY TAP. THE HIGHER INCOME HAVE MOVED OUT ALONG WITH MOST INDUSTRY AND THE HIGHER WAGE EARNERS, LEAVING MIDD. SCHOOLS NO CHOICE BUT TO BEAT THE REMAINING TAXPAYERS UP.

OK, TEAR ALL THE OLD BUILDINGS DOWN IN THE MIDD. SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT YOU WOULD LIKE. WILL JUST COST MONEY THAT PEOPLE IN A POOR TOWN DON'T HAVE. I'LL MAKE A BET WITH YOU THAT AFTER YOUR NEW SCHOOLS ARE BUILT, NOTHING WILL CHANGE AS TO BETTER PERFORMANCE AND THE PEOPLE WHO WERE FORCED TO FUND THE NEW FACILITIES WILL GET ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR THEIR MONEY. AGAIN, FOR THE UPTEENTH TIME, YA GOTTA CHANGE WHAT'S GOING INSIDE THE BUILDING TO CHANGE THE RESULTS. THE CONDITION OF THE BUILDING, NEW OR OLD, ISN'T THE FIXATIVE TO THE CHANGE. WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN THAT.




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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 7:10am
ch:

"Why do all the Johnnys and Marys that are learning not get the tools necsaary to keep up with the Mason and Lakota Schools?"

IF BY TOOLS, YOU MEAN NEW SCHOOLS, I THOUGHT I SUGGESTED THAT YOU DON'T NEED NEW SCHOOLS TO EFFECT LEARNING. THEREFORE, NEW SCHOOLS SHOULDN'T BE INCLUDED ON YOUR "TOOLS" LIST. JOHNNY AND MARY CAN KEEP UP WITH MASON AND LAKOTA IF THEY HAVE THE SAME QUALITY OF CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION AND THE PARENTS INSIST ON A GOOD EDUCATION AS THE MASON AND LAKOTA PARENTS DO. PARENT INSISTENCE DOESN'T REQUIRE NEW SCHOOLS. IT REQUIRES A MINDSET CHANGE WITH THE MIDDLETOWN PARENTS. MASON AND LAKOTA DO WELL BECAUSE OF THE CLASSROOM ATMOSPHERE AND PARENTAL SUPPORT, NOT BECAUSE OF NEW SCHOOLS. THE ATTITUDE APPROACH BY THE DISTRICT AS A WHOLE HAS A GREATER IMPACT THAN THE SCHOOL BUILDING IMO. EXPECTATIONS ARE HIGHER FROM SCHOOL TO PARENT TO STUDENT IN THESE DISTRICTS.....AND EXPECTATIONS COME FROM PEOPLE, NOT NEWER BUILDINGS.

ch:

Listen, once again: to renovate Vail to state standards is as expensive as building a new building, AND THE STATE WON'T LET YOU DO THAT IF RENOVATION COSTS ARE 66% OF A NEW SCHOOL. Middletown taxpayers would again lose the the very dollars necesasary to pay for the new school

RENOVATE OR BUILD NEW, EITHER WAY, IT'S TOO COSTLY FOR THE AVERAGE RESIDENT OF MIDDLETOWN NOW. THE TOWN IS PREDOMINATELY LOWER MIDDLE TO LOW CLASS NOW. NOT ENOUGH MONEY LIVING HERE ANYMORE TO AFFORD THIS GAME PLAN OF YOURS. NOW, EITHER THE SCHOOL FOLKS AND THEIR SUPPORTERS DON'T UNDERSTAND THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THIS CITY ANYMORE, OR THEY WANT WHAT THEY WANT REGARDLESS OF THE ABILITY TO PAY FOR THE PEOPLE WHICH IS A TAD BIT SELFISH. THERE IS NO MONEY TO DO THE THINGS YOU WANT TO DO, THE ECONOMY AND THE WAY THE CITY HAS BEEN OPERATED HAS DRIVEN OUT ALL THE COMPANIES AND THE PEOPLE WITH MONEY. THE SCHOOLS YOU HAVE BUILT ALREADY AND THE SCHOOLS YOU WANT TO BUILD ARE ALL ROLLS ROYCES IN A YUGO TOWN. THE ELEMENTARIES LOOK LIKE SMALL COLLEGE CAMPUS BUILDINGS AND LOOK SO OUT OF PLACE WITH THE REST OF THE TOWN. THESE BUILDINGS LOOK MORE SUITABLE FOR SPRINGBORO OR MASON THAN MIDDLETOWN.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: Richard Saunders
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 7:48am
The CG&E building in clowntown Middletown is pretty old.  How does Cincinnati State expect their students to learn in that old building?  Can't the City schools use the same methods?


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 8:04am
Vet: once again we are going round and round and getting nowhere.  Just a couple of observations before I go back under my rock---or I may decide to just stick my head in the sand.  Bottom line is---get your duct tape ready---new school buildings DO have more value to a community than just educating kids: there, I said it.  Otherwise we would still have Maple Park, Oneida, Jefferson, Garfield, Sherman and the old city building where Dublin House now sits.  Eye-sores and dilapidated school buildings do need to be replaced.  Another observation: are you saying, after all this time of expounding  the glory days of education in Middletown in the '50s and '60s, that YOU were not educated properly by one of Middletown's most esteemed teachers, Mrs. Louise McBain?  Could there have been a glitch in the system, even in 1966?  I know that I chose, by my behavior, to not take advantage of the educational opportunities available to me.  I worked through high school and partied on the weekends; I didn't take my homework seriously and lost interest.  But that was MY choice. By today's standards, I would have helped Middletown lower the indicators to less than 6-in-26 (do you like the way I snuck that in for a second time this month?).  Ok, done with my soapbox for a while.  My rock looks mighty inviting.  Just one last poke: if $8.00/month will finish the building cycle for the next 40 years, I'll bite-the-bullet and take it.  Whether we like it or not, "it is what it is." The state mandates everything---test scores, building size, who gets what money...and on and on.  OH, LOOK!  someone dropped a quarter on the sidewalk!  Wow, that will make up for my daily contribution to a new tax levy THAT WILL PAY FOR MY NEW MIDDLE SCHOOL AND RENOVATED HIGH SCHOOL!   I feel better already.  OOOHHH---look! another dime on the ground!  I'll put that towards my next gallon gas. 40 more of those and I can drive another 15 miles....  Please don't stand on my rock---my head hurts too much.    Just 1 chmoore.


Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 9:00am
I happen to agree with Acclaro on the idea that the building itself doesn't raise test scores. No matter how you slice this debate or what side you're on, 6 of 26 indicators is a failing grade. I also think there is a huge difference trying to compare education standards from different decades. Back when I went to Middletown City Schools (in the Stone Age), there were no standardized tests to determine whether an individual or the district was meeting "indicators". The standard was how many were graduating and what the GPA was for those students. This whole switch to standardized testing has, imo; destroyed the education system that had been built prior to its implementation. Now, the only thing that matters when judging a school system are those "indicators". The only thing that is taught now is the information to pass those tests and how to take the tests to insure the best possible outcome for the school district. The purpose of education is not the memorization of facts but the training of the mind to learn; something you do for the rest of your life. Our education system no longer teaches that life skill; now we teach indoctrination through the learning of facts and propaganda formulated to keep up the appearance of learning. In Middletown, even the appearance of learning is suffering and the panacea is the offering of new schools as the answer to the problem. It's not the buildings; it's the educational system that has been put in place that is the problem. I don't see how a new levy, new buildings or anything else resolves the real problem.


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 10:21am
Up from my nap.  Richard: Again, college classes, mostly online, older students, different methods when we're talking 5 year olds to 18 year olds.  And, we're talking about 300 students on one campus (building)---not 10 schools, 6,500 students.   TonyB: I agree, too, that the building itself does not raise test scores. BUT, buildings do affect the overall educational process, which is far greater than just passing a standardized test.  I agree with you also about everything else in your post.  Part of my argument is that society itself is the biggest contributor to this problem.  By the way, Vet is the one that is always comparing the "good old days" of the '50s and '60s to todays education....   Just 1 chmoore.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 11:02am
Let's really net this discussion out.

There will be those whom want to build a new school associated with they just must have it, to keep up with the "Jones", ergo, other districts. They will use a state mandate for numbers of windows needed, numbers of square feet, the ratio of converting hydrogen to produce methane gas to modulate the high frequency of the 3 D tv's in every classroom, et al.

There will be those who are owed payback for getting other levies passed, now its the school's turn.

At the end of the day, not one brick will have an impact upon school performance nor enrollment. Middletown increasingly needs and utilizes open enrollment for back fill of the decline in population in Middletown. Section 8 also serves to fill the excess capacity of seats, but one assumes, contributes to the continuous improvement rating.

So, the town will rise taxes, with no net benefit. In turn, population continues to decline, more foreclosures go up, as more people dump properties, valuations go down (just wait until the next set of property tax appeals hit), and the cycle of diminishing returns continues. The problem doesn't rectify itself, until those that have been in the city during the "glory" years are gone, deceased, moved on to assisted living, etc. That will be about 10-15 years....ten the mass low income moves in, and the city hits Detroit status in all facets.

Loved the "pizza" tax analogy chmoore....for just 8.00/ month, it will only cost me, the same as buying a morning breakfast at the Golden Nugget, or a few slices of pizzas, or less than a cup of Joe a day.

Here's what Middletown's priorities need to be, and its not building new schools. Also, chmoore, private schools get endowments from givers and donors, maybe the public sector should do same---have one of the Akers drop $10 Mm for renovation for the MHS, not amortize the pizza tax over many houses (properties).

Priority 1- Streets
Priority 2- Sewers
Priority 3- Escalation of property valuation
Priority 4- Repair broken image
Priority 5- Economic development engine "that could and does"- east end
Priority 6- Lower Crime
Priority 7- Focus upon core functionality, not asset takeover and management
Priority 8- Dump downtown initiatives- let Main Street worry about selling their "historic" significance
Priority 9- Mixed blend of full-time/ volunteer fire department
Priority 10- Transparency at Donham (finance- GF)

I wouldn't put the school building in a top 25 frankly.

You know why AK, Atrium, Square D, CSH, and others left Middletown---taxes.             


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 11:10am
ch:

"By the way, Vet is the one that is always comparing the "good old days" of the '50s and '60s to todays education"

ch, DID YOU JUST "RAT" ME OUT TO THE TEACHER?

YEP. MUCH BETTER THAN TODAY'S WORLD IN MOST WAYS. MIDD. SCHOOLS.... A SHADOW OF THEMSELVES IN PERFORMANCE. NO CONTROL. NO DISCIPLINE. KIDS BEING PASSED THROUGH THE SYSTEM JUST TO GET RID OF THEM. PROUD OF THE GIFTED KIDS. NO SO MUCH SO WITH THE GENERAL STUDENT BODY. NO ONE FAILS A GRADE ANYMORE. JUST PUSH 'EM THROUGH. SOME KIDS GRADUATING FROM HIGH SCHOOL CAN'T ADD, SUBTRACT, MULTIPLY NOR DIVIDE. SOME CAN'T READ TO FUNCTION IN THIS OLD WORLD....NEW SCHOOLS SHOULD SOLVE THE PROBLEM THOUGH.

ch:

"TonyB: I agree, too, that the building itself does not raise test scores. BUT, buildings do affect the overall educational process, which is far greater than just passing a standardized test"

I ASSUME, BY YOUR STANCE ON BUILDING NEW SCHOOLS, THAT YOU MEAN NEW BUILDINGS AFFECT THE OVERALL EDUCATIONAL PROCESS....AND HOW DO THEY DO THAT AS OPPOSED TO OLDER BUILDINGS? PLEASE EXPLAIN FOR UNDERSTANDING ch. OR.....PERHAPS THERE IS NO PROVEN DATA THAT ASSURES NEW SCHOOLS PRODUCE BETTER RESULTS. ANY DATA ch?

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 11:46am
ch:

"Bottom line is---get your duct tape ready---new school buildings DO have more value to a community than just educating kids: there, I said it"

THAT WOULD BE TRUE IF IT WERE ANY COMMUNITY BUT MIDDLETOWN. NEW SCHOOLS WOULD CERTAINLY BE OF VALUE TO A COMMUNITY AS TO THE ATTRACTION OF NEW PEOPLE. HAS WORKED FOR MASON AND SPRINGBORO. HOWEVER....THE SCHOOLS OF MIDDLETOWN AND THE PERCEPTION OF THEIR KIDS RECEIVING LESS THAN AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION WOULD TRUMP ANY NEW SCHOOLS YOU COULD BUILD. FANCY NEW SCHOOLS DON'T HELP A BIT IF THE PEOPLE KNOW THEIR KIDS WILL STILL NOT RECEIVE AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION. NOPE, PEOPLE ARE PULLING THEIR KIDS OUT TO GO ELSEWHERE AND TO CHARTER SCHOOLS. CONTENT ch, NOT OUTSIDE APPEARANCE. THE MIDDLETOWN SCHOOLS HAVE NOT HAD A STELLAR REPUTATION FOR DECADES.

ch:

"Another observation: are you saying, after all this time of expounding the glory days of education in Middletown in the '50s and '60s, that YOU were not educated properly by one of Middletown's most esteemed teachers, Mrs. Louise McBain? Could there have been a glitch in the system, even in 1966?"

YEP, A GLITCH. THE MATH COLLEGE PREP COURSES THAT I TOOK IN HIGH SCHOOL DID NOT PREPARE ME TO START THE MULLIGAN VERSION OF FRESHMAN COLLEGE CALCULUS. McBAIN ENDED WITH LIMITS. MULLIGAN STARTED WITH LIMITS. APPARENTLY, THE HIGH SCHOOL MATH PEOPLE DIDN'T BOTHER TO ASK THE RECEIVING MUM MATH PEOPLE WHAT THE STUDENTS NEEDED TO HANDLE TO COLLEGE MATH CURRICULUM. I WONDER IF THE CURRENT HIGH SCHOOL/STATE PEOPLE ARE IN TOUCH WITH THE CURRENT COLLEGE FOLKS TO ASSURE THE STUDENTS WILL BE ABLE TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE IN THEIR FRESHMAN YEAR. SOME COLLEGES MUST START A REMEDIAL CLASS TO BRING THE FRESHMAN CLASS IN COLLEGE UP TO SPEED IN PREPARATION. THAT DOESN'T SPEAK WELL FOR THE HIGH SCHOOL PREPARATION PROGRAM. DON'T THINK IT WAS McBAIN'S FAULT. MIDD. SCHOOLS AND MUM JUST WEREN'T TIED TOGETHER AS TO CROSSOVER NEEDS.

ch:

"Just one last poke: if $8.00/month will finish the building cycle for the next 40 years, I'll bite-the-bullet and take it. Whether we like it or not, "it is what it is." The state mandates everything---test scores, building size, who gets what money...and on and on. OH, LOOK! someone dropped a quarter on the sidewalk! Wow, that will make up for my daily contribution to a new tax levy THAT WILL PAY FOR MY NEW MIDDLE SCHOOL AND RENOVATED HIGH SCHOOL!   I feel better already. OOOHHH---look! another dime on the ground! I'll put that towards my next gallon gas. 40 more of those and I can drive another 15 miles"

I SEE YOU'RE IN THE SAME MODE THAT SOME TV COMMERCIALS ARE IN. "PLEASE GIVE.....JUST A DOLLAR A DAY...THE COST OF A CUP OF COFFEE TO HELP THESE STARVING CHILDREN"...........YOU CAN SPIN IT ANYWAY YOU WISH AS THE TV PEOPLE DO, TUGGING ON YOUR HEART STRINGS TO GIVE, TEARS AND ALL. IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THE PERFORMANCE OF PREVIOUS LEVIES. WHAT HAS HAPPENED WITH THE PROGRESS MADE FROM THE 45 MILLION WE SPENT ON THE ELEMENTARIES? LIKE TOM CRUISE SAYING "SHOW ME THE MONEY" IN JERRY McGUIRE....I SAY "SHOW ME THE PERFORMANCE" BEFORE I VOTE FOR YOUR BOND LEVY. A BUCKS A MONTH ISN'T THE ISSUE HERE ch. WHAT DID I GET FROM MY LAST 8 BUCKS A MONTH FROM THE LAST BOND LEVY IS. I JUST DON'T THINK YOU HAVE PROVEN THAT THE LAST BOND LEVY MONEY WAS WORTH IT, MUCH LESS GIVING YOU LEVY SUPPORTERS MORE THIS TIME.

BY THE WAY, STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, POSED FOR THE FOURTH TIME NOW....WHAT WAS THE PERFORMANCE LEVEL OF THE ELEMENTARIES IN THE OLD SCHOOLS VERSUS THE PERFORMANCE FROM THE NEWLY BUILT SCHOOLS. AND WAS THE DIFFERENCE WORTH THE 45 MILLION SPENT. HOW ABOUT A RESPONSE THIS TIME.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 1:28pm
Acclaro,
 
I have one minor comment to your priority list:
 
Move the sewers up to Number 1.  Not because you or I may see it that way, but because the EPA will soon FORCE the city to see it that way.
 
(Also because it would be just like City Hall to do a street first, then tear up that brand new pavement to do sewer work.)


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 2:03pm
Acclaro,
I like your priority list but some of your priorities are results and/or strategies and not action items.  For example #3 escalation of property values is a result of increased demand and/or reduced supply.  I would argue that better schools; academic performance number one and functionality, location, and appearance of schools number two will help achieve your #3 priority.  Many people are turned off and are concerned because of the location of the middle school.  Some don't buy in Middletown because of the location.  Academic performance is a work in progress while the re-habbed high school and the new high school can be done now.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 2:59pm
processor; I agree with you and would state as the adage goes; '"it is location, location, location" when buying property, and escalation of value.

However....the problem with building schools is that is simply does not address the city's other problems that increases demand and eliminates supply. It actually diminishes demand, and increases supply.

The school buildings, in my opinion, is not even a "band aid" effect. Middletown's problems run so deep and wide, it would not put a dent in overcoming many obstacles. I don't believe the location is an issue and hasn't been for years. Of course, it makes for a nice argument to get new school(s) built, but it is not a "location driven" need. Some of the most wealthy property owners in Middletown, others than those whose children were at John XXIII or Miami Valley, Summit Country Day, et al, had no issues with Vail, other than violence. Location was always and is today, a non issue.

I do realize of course, its a nice strategy to have---they have to move it to be more neutral, and closer to the east end. An interesting paradox---move Vail closer to highway (75) for growth, while downtown is the engine for revitalization, and money pit expenditures, associated with the renewal of the downtown. Someone is wrong. Hard to sustain two opposing arguments for "location."   


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 3:21pm
Acclaro,
Anecdotally I know of about 10 people who would have kept their children in Middletown City Schools but moved them out ONLY because they did not want them to go to Vail due to its location.  This can also be seen in the enrollment data.  There is a fairly large drop between 6th grade and 7th.
 
The new/rebuilt schools won't solve Middletown's issue, but is one necessary step.  The school board seems to be doing a good job in assessing the proper priorities; academics first, financial performance second, school culture third and facilities fourth.  Maybe there will be a positive change in city management and council and they too can get on board with proper priorities.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 3:31pm
processor, I know a very prominent physician/ surgeon who had a stepson beat to a pulp at Vail; the drop off you speak, at least among those whom I speak/ spoke, is associated with Vail violence, not locale. As we both agree...I believe anyway...

the school location will have limited effect on increased enrollment, other than one could argue....a stretch in my opinion, some living in Franklin might stray into open enrollment if out at Miller Ridge area (a stretch- emphasis added
:D)  

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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 3:33pm
I got it Get Mike Holmes and or the Property Brothers to come out and renovate and flip the old middle school into a modern functional open concept school, with Hardwood Floors, Stainless Steel appliances, and Granite Counter Tops in the Kitchen and in the Home Economics Rooms LOL Handshake


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 3:37pm
I agree that the new school admin location may teach Council/city admin a few lessons on interaction with citizens.

The school people that read this site actually want to meet the bloggers and establish dialogue. They are open to listening, and providing answers and explanations.

Seems that the city staff prefers to denegrate web posters and keep the us vs. them in the bunker approach.

Anyone else feel that way?
Jmo of course!


Posted By: LMAO
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 4:14pm
Agree with you spider,Mrs.Scott Jones excuse is she dont like the name calling on here.Her words not mine.
Josh excuse is he is already hearing hell about agreeing with a few on here from his fellow council people.
Mayor and his bro are to busy getting what they need to make Main st. Purty.Big smile


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 5:30pm
Vet: this blog is getting pretty spread out, so he is a question from Page 2:   I stated:   "Here's a good question for you: if Duke, etc. owned Middletown Middle School, and wanted to renovate it, would it cost more for the college to do it, or more for Middletown City Schools to do it. And, whichever is more costly, why do think that would be?"
You answered:

I WOULD FIRST NEED TO KNOW HOW MUCH HELP IN FINANCING DUKE WOULD GET AS OPPOSED TO MIDD SCHOOLS. NOT FAMILIAR WITH THAT FINANCING AND WHAT IS AVAILABLE THROUGH ANY FED OR STATE PROGRAMS TO AID IN THE MONEY AREA. I WOULD IMAGINE THE COLLEGE WOULD HAVE AN EASIER TIME RENOVATING VAIL AS THEY HAVE A GREATER MONEY TAP FROM TUITIONS, BENEFACTORS AND RESEARCH PROJECTS. MIDD. SCHOOLS HAVE ONLY THE POOR, MIDDLE AND LOWER MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE TO BLEED DRY FOR THEIR MONEY TAP.  
My question was which would have to spend more--the college or Middletown Schools?  Not how it was funded, who had access to boosters, endowments, etc.  Who do YOU THINK would pay more for a total renovation.  The choices: the colleges or MCSD?  No long answer; just your opinion from your life experiences.  Not a trick question. Honest. 
Just 1 chmoore.


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 5:40pm
Vet:  Part 2:  You asked: "I WILL ASK THE QUESTION FOR THE THIRD TIME.......

WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS FROM THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS BEFORE THE TEAR DOWNS AND WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS WITH THE NEW SCHOOLS?"
 
My answer: I have no clue. I don't think that there can be any comparison because the standards have changed.  I think it was you who stated that when "we" (I'm about your age) were at MHS, all we had was our report card (how did we do for the 6-week term and semester tests?), and the ACT/SAT.  As I stated earlier, I had no concern for either by the time I was a Junior, even though I needed the ACT to get into college.  Still trying to have a civil discussion, not a knock-down fight...   I remain, Just 1 chmoore.


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 6:01pm
OK chmoore--if the testing/grading standards have changed, and the results are still the same, what does that mean?
Either we are doing better, the same or not as well.
I hope that we are improving and have evidence to back up my hopes.
I know that we have a caring admin and staff--I have listened to them in action.
Parents and role models--IU am not so sure........
Someone has to make the difference, and it appears to be that someone is going to have to be the teachers.
I agree that the buildings and inside environment are a huge factor, both real and perceived.
We can't keep building new, and ending up with the same old eresults
 
I attended Jefferson, Roosevelt and the old high school
None were modern(even then!), air-conditioned or upscale.
Any failures concerning my education were absolutely on my end.
Most teachers were fine, though some had serious issues with the mid/late 1960s culture that was developing
Conditions were never an acceptable factor or excuse.
And we were proud of our schools.
 
Yes--I had Mrs.McBain for Algebra, and scored highest in the school on the college math test.


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 7:50pm
OK chmoore--if the testing/grading standards have changed, and the results are still the same, what does that mean?
Well, this isn't rocket science.  During the '60s, for example---and as I stated, we had no state tests that I know of.  We had our class assignments that were graded, and our quizzes, classroom tests, participation---we all know the drill.  These made up our grades.  I wasn't compared to Cleveland students, Athens students or Adams Co. students.  If so, it wasn't scrutinized, dissected, analyzed, glued, screwed and tattooed.  Looking back now, I should have made straight As all through 12 years.  I applied myself until 7th grade when they removed my brain and inserted hormones.  Loved the social life, didn't want to do my assignments.  My choice. Where are we saying that the results are the same?  How can that statement be made based on today's testing demands compared to no standardized tests from the '60s?  Graduation rates? I don't think so.  Attendance?  That's a joke from the '60s    Once again this subject becomes too complicated given all the various factors.   Just 1 chmoore.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 8:49pm
chmoore....the reason, and the sole reason, Middletown is not attracting residents 9besides taxes, poor leadership, infrastructure woes, crime, et al), is the school rankings. To state there was no testing in the 60's means nothing, other than to state one cannot compare the performance of a school district, ergo, Middletown, in the 60's, compared to the present. Okay, reasonable enough, and who cares---that's past----this is present.

Here's Middletown's ranking (high school). As you know, out of 723 distrcts, Middletown ranks 672; that's bottom 7% in state. That is not deserving of new buildings.   

I can't speak for your raging hormones in 7th grade, mine hit my freshmen year in college---a late bloomer I assume. But I did graduate and then on the post grad work and degrees. Thank God for college prep in high school. Hell chmoore---kids today can use the advanced TI calculator for the ACT and SAT, not so when I took it. You are comparing an orange to an apple (in my humble opinion of course).

Anyone who would vote for a levy with the dismal school performance and enrollment must have been preoccupied with hormones, or other distractions, than a clear mind.   


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 10:10pm
chmoore--being ranked and rated is nothing new
comparisons are made in virtually every aspect of life
academic results are real, especially when all districts are measured equally to the same standard
if you are consistently rated near the bottom, obviously you are not doing very well
nothing unfair about that--actually it is very real and fair--what is is what is, and definitely not rocket science
you seem to be spinning with your non-answers


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 1:34am
Spider: I thought that this would proceed differently, but it hasn't.  Five people on here are never going to support the schools (i.e., a levy for 2 new school buildings).  This, by the way, also means no other tax-related issue.  I accept that reasoning---I don't agree with it, but I accept it.  Crucify me, if you must, for seeing more value in new buildings than just that 2nd grade Johnny is 3% points behind the "state average" whatever that means.  Don't forget, by the way, that some districts have even cheated to raise their standardized scores!  Since this is an endless discussion, it's really not worth the effort.  Vote and support, or don't.  I won't change, you won't change.  One other analysis for fairness' sake, look at the 2010-11 school report---the infamous "6-out-of-26": on the report, MCSD's 10th grade and up scores show that, of the 12 indicators, Middletown students were above or equal to the "similar districts" (quote: "Similar Districts are based on comparing demographic, socioeconomic and geographic factors", i.e., OUR PEERS, in 11.  11 out of 12....  You won't see that mentioned anywhere else on here.  Thank goodness November will show us what the full voting public wants, one way or the other.   Just 1 chmoore.

 



Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 6:14am
I believe I have made my choice as to your question ch.....

ch:

"My question was which would have to spend more--the college or Middletown Schools? Not how it was funded, who had access to boosters, endowments, etc. Who do YOU THINK would pay more for a total renovation. The choices: the colleges or MCSD? No long answer; just your opinion from your life experiences. Not a trick question. Honest.
Just 1 chmoore.

VET'S ANSWER TO ch's QUESTION:


"I WOULD IMAGINE THE COLLEGE WOULD HAVE AN EASIER TIME RENOVATING VAIL" ie, I believe the college would have an easier time financing the renovation, (especially here in the poor community of Middletown) As to paying more, the cost would be the same for renovation of Vail. Doesn't matter who was trying to renovate it. The renovation company doesn't care where the money comes from, just so it lands in their pocket when they're done, right? The price quoted for renovation is the price quoted.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 6:33am
Originally posted by chmoore1 chmoore1 wrote:



Vet:  Part 2:  You asked: "I WILL ASK THE QUESTION FOR THE THIRD TIME.......

WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS FROM THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS BEFORE THE TEAR DOWNS AND WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS WITH THE NEW SCHOOLS?"
 
My answer: I have no clue. I don't think that there can be any comparison because the standards have changed.  I think it was you who stated that when "we" (I'm about your age) were at MHS, all we had was our report card (how did we do for the 6-week term and semester tests?), and the ACT/SAT.  As I stated earlier, I had no concern for either by the time I was a Junior, even though I needed the ACT to get into college.  Still trying to have a civil discussion, not a knock-down fight...   I remain, Just 1 chmoore.


NOPE, WASN'T ME WHO MENTIONED REPORT CARDS, ACT'S OR SAT'S.

ch:

"My answer: I have no clue. I don't think that there can be any comparison because the standards have changed"

DON'T YOU THINK THAT THAT IS AN IMPORTANT THING TO KNOW BEFORE YOU NEW BUILDING GUYS START BUILDING NEW SCHOOLS AGAIN? WOULDN'T IT BE PRUDENT TO SEE THE RESULTS OF YOUR NEW BUILDING PILOT PROGRAM WITH THE ELEMENTARIES BEFORE YOU SUGGEST TO US TAXPAYERS THAT WE OUGHT TO BUILD ANOTHER ROUND? IT IS NOT LIKE YOU WERE BLINDSIDED WITH EACH CHANGE. I'M SURE THERE WAS AMPLE TIME TO ADAPT. APPARENTLY OTHER SCHOOL DISTRICTS DID AS THEY HAVE BETTER PERFORMANCE. EVEN THOUGH YOU ARE USING THE OLD "STANDARDS HAVE CHANGED"/"THEY CHANGED THE RULES ON US" ROUTINE (ALWAYS THE GAME PLAN WHEN THE SCHOOLS ARE BACKED INTO A CORNER), HOW ABOUT TAKING A GUESS FOR US AS TO WHAT YOU THINK THE NEW ELEMENTARIES HAVE DONE TO AFFECT THE OVERALL PERFORMANCE- BETTER PERFORMANCE OR NO DIFFERENCE. HOW ABOUT COMPARING THE PROFICIENCIES GRADES IN THE ELEMENTARIES PRE NEW SCHOOL VERSUS POST NEW SCHOOL AND TELL US IF THERE IS A MAJOR DIFFERENCE. THAT SHOULD TELL US IF THE INVESTMENT WAS WORTH IT, RIGHT? IN YOUR OPINION, HOW MUCH MORE TIME IS NEEDED TO SHOW IMPROVEMENT? HOW MANY LEVIES MUST BE APPROVED TO SHOW IMPROVEMENT? SHOULD MIDDLETOWN HAVE ALL NEW SCHOOLS TO SHOW IMPROVEMENT? WHEN WILL WE SEE IMPROVEMENT FROM WHAT WE HAVE ALREADY INVESTED? TELL US BASED ON WHAT WE KNOW TO DATE.

NO "KNOCK DOWN" FIGHT HERE. I APPRECIATE YOUR SIDE OF THE STORY. DON'T UNDERSTAND IT, ESPECIALLY WITH ALL THE TIME AND MONEY SPENT TO IMPROVE IT AND NOT SEEING IT HAPPEN IN THREE DECADES, BUT, NEVERTHELESS, APPRECIATE IT. JUST LIKE TO "DISCUSS" (ACTUALLY ARGUE). GREAT STRESS RELIEVER FOR ME.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 6:47am
Originally posted by chmoore1 chmoore1 wrote:



OK chmoore--if the testing/grading standards have changed, and the results are still the same, what does that mean?
Well, this isn't rocket science.  During the '60s, for example---and as I stated, we had no state tests that I know of.  We had our class assignments that were graded, and our quizzes, classroom tests, participation---we all know the drill.  These made up our grades.  I wasn't compared to Cleveland students, Athens students or Adams Co. students.  If so, it wasn't scrutinized, dissected, analyzed, glued, screwed and tattooed.  Looking back now, I should have made straight As all through 12 years.  I applied myself until 7th grade when they removed my brain and inserted hormones.  Loved the social life, didn't want to do my assignments.  My choice. Where are we saying that the results are the same?  How can that statement be made based on today's testing demands compared to no standardized tests from the '60s?  Graduation rates? I don't think so.  Attendance?  That's a joke from the '60s    Once again this subject becomes too complicated given all the various factors.   Just 1 chmoore.


ch, THE COMPARISON IS ON THE CURRENT SITUATION OF PRE NEW SCHOOL ELEMENTARIES VERSUS NEW, CURRENT ELEMENTARIES.....HOW DOES THE PERFORMANCE COMPARE? NOT CURRENT SCHOOLS WITH THE CRITERIA TO MEET IN THE 60'S. TOTALLY DIFFERENT SCHOOL REQUIREMENTS AND OPERATION BACK THEN. IT IS A SHAME WE DON'T HAVE THE DISCIPLINE PROGRAMS IN PLACE NOWADAYS. THEN, PERHAPS, THE STUDENTS WOULDN'T WALK ALL OVER THE AUTHORITY FIGURES AS THEY DO TODAY. TOO DAM KINDER/ GENTLER AND THE KIDS DON'T RESPECT SOFTNESS. PERHAPS THEY SHOULD HAVE COMPARED SCHOOL DISTRICT TO SCHOOL DISTRICT BACK IN THE 60'S. I'M SURE THE MIDDLETOWN SCHOOLS WOULD HAVE HELD THEIR OWN BACK THEN. SURELY NOT NOW THOUGH. THE SCHOOLS HAVE TAKEN A BIG FALL SINCE THEN AS TO STRENGTH OF PERFORMANCE.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 6:57am
ch:

" One other analysis for fairness' sake, look at the 2010-11 school report---the infamous "6-out-of-26": on the report, MCSD's 10th grade and up scores show that, of the 12 indicators, Middletown students were above or equal to the "similar districts" (quote: "Similar Districts are based on comparing demographic, socioeconomic and geographic factors", i.e., OUR PEERS, in 11. 11 out of 12.... You won't see that mentioned anywhere else on here."

OK ch, USING AN ANALOGY HERE, IF YOU JUST CONSIDER PORTIONS OF THE NORTH AND THE NORTHEAST SIDE OF MIDDLETOWN, THE COMMUNITY APPEARS TO BE UPSCALE WITH PEOPLE MAKING A DECENT INCOME. THAT MAY BE ACCURATE, BUT IT DOESN'T CONSIDER THE WHOLE COMMUNITY WHICH WOULD TOTALLY TURN THAT PERCEPTION UPSIDE DOWN. YOU CAN TAKE ALMOST ANY DATA, EXCLUDE SOME PORTIONS OF IT AND COME TO A FAVORABLE CONCLUSION.....BUT IT DOESN'T TELL YOU THE TRUTH OF THE SITUATION AND IS WORTHLESS DATA TO REPORT WHEN MAKING A CONCLUSION CONCERNING THE ENTIRE PICTURE. EVERYONE KNOWS DATA CAN BE MANIPULATED TO PRODUCE ANY CONCLUSION ONE WANTS TO MAKE.   

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 7:30am
chmoore--we are all in the same boat here
I appreciate reading your input--your thinking matters--and you are simply one caring person, just like everyone else
I am asking some ?s that none can really answer
 
I support our schools--I see the need to make it better
I have not advocated any voting position, and am not asking anyone to go one way or the other--yet
The public is stretched about as far as possible continually by every level of govt, and the results often aren't worth the investment imo
 
 


Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 7:37am
Vet:  your answer to my "cost of renovation" question: "I WOULD IMAGINE THE COLLEGE WOULD HAVE AN EASIER TIME RENOVATING VAIL.  What I was trying to get to by this question was that it would "cost more" (bottom line, contracted bid price) for any college, because: the renovation would be more extensive (fixing every nook and cranny, upper-end materials used, "restored" condition (no 2 x 4 dropped ceiling---plaster repaired instead).  You get the picture.  I asked this because the comment was made (by others) that the Dukes and Harvards of the world renovate 100 year old buildings all the time.  However, when they do it, it is a "restore to new", not a simple renovation like public schools are doing in Ohio (dropped ceiling, partial masonry repair).  More later, comrade....    Just 1 chmoore.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 9:08am
chmoore....you should not be dismayed if one doesn't agree with your position.

I mean, if you go into  store, you are looking for value, price point to serve your need. The same holds true for taxes. Should not a voter ask the same questions as they would when buying a suit, a service, furniture, a car? Of course.
That's really what is happening here, its an analysis of cost/ benefit.

To summarize, it appears those who push the taxes our way do so as follows:

1) Vail is in a bad area downtown, and to move it east would be beneficial, assuming at least by some, more would either move in or at least, enroll in school.
2) Its cheaper or break-even, to build new vs update old.
3) It will be more pleasing to students, thus heightening their performance.
4) It really doesn't cost much- 8.00/month- the pizza or coffee tax analogy.
5) We just cannot let our drawal from the state for matching funds go without taking advantage, even though it costs the taxpayer money.

If I read each of the above, not one truly gives or remotely provides, any assurance, property values go up, school enrollment goes up, performance improves. To me, that makes a "no" vote a mandate- same as if i were buying a suit, buying a car, buying furniture, or evaluating a service.

Black and white....no shades of grey. 


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 9:25am
The one thing Ch and Vet does have in common is to see Middletown get better, you just go two different ways to do it. I do agree Schools are a big part of the Community. Having grown up in Springboro I know that first hand. However in order to convince people that new schools are needed, you also need to make them feel like it is a good investment. But first the people of this community needs to have: 1) Job Security, 2) A Good Paying Job 3) Good & Maintained infrastructure 4) The Feeling of living in a Safe Community 5) Places to go shop, eat, and be entertained. 6) Good High Performing School System.

All of this, Middletown is severely lacking. Which is why many on this forum would rather see our tax money put into attracting jobs, and improving infrastructure. Because if you are able to bring more higher income jobs and people into Middletown, then we can turn our attention to improving the schools.

But none of this can happen because of the terrible decisions made by city council in the past. The worst of all, allowing Section 8 to even enter into Middletown. And becuase of all these bad decisions they have made, has resulted in increase crime, gravel like roads, and a decrease in school performance.

If anything the schools should be the ones to call attention to the Voters on how city council has failed this town and is now failing the children that go to Middletown city schools. And the schools should be leading a campaign to get people to run for city council that will attract jobs and higher income people to this city, which will in turn result in more money for the city schools, through higher property values.

Rather than building a new school and asking for a levy, that will more than likely fail. That will probably keep the same results, and force more people out of Middletown because their mortgages have gone outside of what they can afford.

Basically CH once people start feeling good about living in city of Middletown, that is when people will start to begin to invest in the school system. Not the other way around. To many people in this town are ashamed or embarrassed that they live in M-Town, or Middletucky. And until you change that, you will be had pressed to get people to invest in the schools.

Sorry for my ramblings, I just want to see this town change it's course and start to compete with the other suburbs in this area.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 10:26am
ktf- what you stated has been said before, but your points were well made and bears repeating.

Can you imagine any city in the United States, that a temporary measure of taking street funds to be used for a year, as was the case in 1986, to keep city employees working to maintain certain services for Middletown residents would actually last nearly 30 years and counting, and not once, did a council member even bring it up for a vote to rescind the ordinance and put those funds back into road maintainence. Unconscionable, deceptive, about every negative adjective one could think to describe such action.

Section 8- city council members did not even have a clue how many vouchers were out there. Hello Marty Kohler- thanks for destroying Middletown. And he maintains his job.

Spending 300,000-400,000. to maintain a golf course, when you have grass higher in streets than the preripheral rough surrounding a fairway? What insanity! Not a city in the United States that its residents would tolerate that. Memo to Judy---go over to Miami and ask them to buy it, make a sweet heart deal, hovers between Oxford, Hamilton, and Middletown campus. And....they have the money, you don't.

Raising taxes just drives property values down, not up. Memo to Judy- See Middletown Regional, AK Steel, CSH, Square D, so many others....run!  Why? Taxes. Houses taking 7-10 years to sell, selling at 50% of 1989 value over and over.

The school board will never speak harsely to Middletown city leaders nor council. Their game is mutual voting blocks. They have this one in the bag- tax levy pass. Why do you think Dick. S., Mart B, others, finally moving? They know the tax rate is coming they would support---they just know its time to bolt and the Middletown cartel is shrinking associated with age.

   


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 11:12am
THE STATE OF THE CITY BY KTF1179. BETTER THAN LAWRENCE MULLIGAN THE THIRD'S VERSION. MORE TRUTH TO IT. SAYS IT ALL, YET SOME SUPPORTING THE SCHOOLS AND THOSE SUPPORTING THE CITY LEADERS DON'T SEE (OR DON'T WANT TO SEE) THE TRUTH. ALWAYS THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE ON PRIORITIES BY BOTH GROUPS. GRAND SCHEMES OF SUCCESS THAT RARELY PAN OUT. THE SCHOOL PEOPLE WANT US TO CONSTANTLY APPROVE THEIR LEVIES.....THEN... THEY WILL START WORKING ON THE PROBLEMS (WHICH ARE NEVER SOLVED BY THE WAY) OR BUILD THEM NEW SCHOOLS.....THEN... THEY WILL ATTEMPT TO IMPROVE PERFORMANCE THEY "PREDICT" WILL HAPPEN AND THE CITY WANTS US TO GO ALONG WITH THEIR PROGRAM ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS CITY.........WITHOUT US HAVING A SAYSO AS TO WHAT DIRECTION WE WISH THE CITY TO GO. THEY DON'T WANT THE PEOPLE'S INPUT. THE "PREDICTION" THAT THE DOWNTOWN WILL RISE FROM THE ASHES. THE "PREDICTION" THAT CINCY STATE WILL GROW TO 3000 STUDENTS IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS. THE "PREDICTION" THAT THE ATRIUM AREA WILL GROW ALL THE HIGH TECH MEDICAL JOBS WE COULD EVER IMAGINE. THE "PREDICTION" THAT THERE WILL BE USE FOR ALL THE THATCHER BUILDINGS PURCHASED WITH OUR MONEY. ALOT OF PREDICTIONS. NONE TO FRUITION AS YET THOUGH. DREAMWEAVERS. NO MEAT AND POTATOES SHOWN. (I'D PUT A JMO HERE BUT SOME GET UPSET)



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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 12:30pm
Vet....it isn't your opinion, it is indeed a fact, all you stated.

The city knows these statements are not true when they make them. Look around, do you see any of the dfocs, attorneys, city leaders, city council members children hanging around Middletown? Of course not, they are gone. The residents in the "know" are well aware the city is a dead end, and get out. The leaders kids are told to get out. I could name 100 families who have kids in Lebanon, elsewhere, West Chester....this isn't a secret, its a well know fact.

The Atrium and the advancement of $5 Mm was known to never generate the revenue they threw out there. Look now at the developer. Its 4% real estate....4%. You know, you get more- with 4? Nothing wrong nor intended about 4% realty, but that's the development engine now, instead of 10% commission on commercial property. East end total bust- total bust.

Downtown- city knew the rhetoric and partnership was nothing more than hype. And Cincinnati State is and has been, having its own problems for years. How and where are 5000 kifs coming from----cannibalizing MUM? It won't and isn't happening.

Expansion out at airport, luring all those businesses from F500's to Middletown, with cheap gas, plenty of space? It isn't happening.

Miler Ridge area going to explode, luring new residents and filing the school? Total bust, in my opinion.

Sawyers Mill area to explode, luring new residents and filing the schools? Total bust, in my opinion.

Arts downtown making Middletown a point of "destiny" an art haven, bringing in middle to upper middle class residents, retirees, enjoying the good life? It won't and isn't happening.

Towne Mall resurgence, new owners, expansion, high end shopping? It won't and isn't happening. Check daily and see about 15 cars sitting in front at rush/ peak hour times. Another bust in my opinion.

You see....everyone is sitting by watching the cookie jar be raided without saying a word, until the city is bankrupt, as councilman Lambaugh correctly is forecasting. Positive cash flow= Cash Flow in Minus Cash Flow Out; simply too mucj out, not enough coming in. As businesses move out, residents are expected to make up difference. That difference is seen by new residents as a negative, driving demand down, added with city problems, and you have the vicious cycle called "decline."

      


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 1:25pm

Excellent explanations by all three of the above posters on why Middletown is failing and why taxpayer must demand change. Thumbs UpThumbs UpThumbs Up



Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 5:00pm
ktf1179:  I believe you are a relatively new resident of Middletown.  I ask this question not as a smart-ass but with a true  interest in your answer: what attracted YOU to Middletown?  All the rest of us (at least the 5-6 that I know) have lived here almost our entire lives.  You, however, are the exception.  With all the negatives that M-town has (and I agree with all of them, believe it or not) "something" must have made you say "Hey, Middletown's the place for me."  Thanks for sharing---it may put a new perspective on things for us old-timers.  Just 1 chmoore.


Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Aug 07 2013 at 5:01pm
I'm posting an article from the Washington Post as a reference to what I was talking about in an earlier post on this topic. While brick and mortar are all fine and good, this article discusses the real problems in our educational system. No new building, fancy equipment or copious amounts of cash will improve our educational experience for children until we fix this.http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/02/09/a-warning-to-college-profs-from-a-high-school-teacher/






Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Aug 08 2013 at 12:59pm
There are a couple reasons we decided to settle in Middletown.
1) Location - It is literally equal distance between my job, and my fiances job.
2) Price - We got a 4 bedroom split level house with 14,000 square ft. of land for $90,000
3) Conveniences - Within 2 miles of our house, we have Wal-Mart, Meijer, Target, Lowes, Krogers, and I-75
4) Decenct Neighborhood - The Ayrshire neighborhood on the far east side of Middletown has a mix family neighborhood, with lot of kids, where most of the people take good care of their homes, and lawns. Granted the streets and curbs have pot holes, and weeds growing in them. The neighborhood appears to keep an eye out for each other.
5) Good starter home - If the day should come where we need to move, I hope to be able to sell it for more than I paid for it. Given all the repairs and updates we have done so far.
6) Kept Loosing out - We looked for homes in Miamisburg, Springboro, Franklin, Miami Township, Trenton, and Kettering. And every bid we put in we kept getting out bidden.

But by far the house we have now was the biggest, and needed the less repair, considering we told our realtor we wanted to keep it under $100,000 for a house so we could still live comfortably. Besides I fell in love with the desk and the backyard view of a forest and creek.

As for the schools that hasn't crossed out mine yet since, we don't have any kids yet, but when we and they get close to school age we will consider if we want to stay in Middletown or move to an area with better school, like my old hometown of Springboro.



Posted By: chmoore1
Date Posted: Aug 08 2013 at 11:33pm
ktf:  thanks for the info.  It is refreshing to know that---even with all of our problems---there are some things that we still have to attract younger families like yours.  Just 1 chmoore.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Sep 16 2013 at 6:23am
And yet another story from our friends at the Journal concerning the upcoming levy......

Temps hit 94 degrees some days at Middletown Middle School

MIDDLETOWN —
Things were heated during Middletown school board’s first traveling work session last Monday at Middletown Middle School.

Principal Michael Valenti led the school board members on a tour last week of the 91-year-old building, which at the time of construction in 1922 was “state of the art,” he said.

“This is a building that has served its time,” Valenti said.

About half of the classrooms at MMS have window air conditioning units. The remainder utilize fans, dimmed lighting and window shades to alleviate rising mercury for the 800 students.

Temperatures range from 84 degrees to 94 degrees inside classrooms across the four-story building, Valenti said. During the tour last Monday, temperatures inside the non-air conditioned parts of the building were about 90 degrees.

“You’re feeling a little bit of heat today …. we feel that all the time,” Valenti said. “It’s not a good learning environment and the kids are worn out.”

Valenti said it’s his goal that a student spends time in air conditioning at least three times a day. He added that classes are sometimes moved out of their respective rooms on the third and fourth floors and into the library for a cooler learning environment.

“Those window air conditioners are a necessary evil and are the most inefficient,” said George Long, business manager.

The Middletown school board has placed a 3.95-mill bond issue and 0.26-mill permanent improvement levy on the November ballot that would support construction of a new middle school next to the high school and renovations to the high school, including a new competition gym, auditorium and additional classroom space.

“What it costs to make learning happen in this building is way more than it will be to bring that comfort to the new school,” Long said.

Valenti, who’s been at MMS for 25 years, said many features of the building have declined over the past nine decades. Among items are ceiling leaks, classrooms with only one electrical outlet, restroom stalls without doors and only a third of lockers in use.

Despite the hardships, Valenti said the middle school has increased its performance index score on three of the last four state report cards from Ohio Department of Education. The school has also exceeded value-added for three years, meaning students recorded more than a year’s worth of growth over the course of a year.

OK, LET'S REVIEW.

THE SCHOOL WAS BUILT IN 1922. THE SCHOOL HAS HAD NO AIR CONDITIONING SINCE THAT TIME, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A FEW WINDOW AIR CONDITIONERS RECENTLY ADDED. THE CLASSROOM TEMPS RANGE BETWEEN 84 AND 94 DEGREES THROUGHOUT THE SCHOOL. SINCE 1922, THERE HAVE BEEN THOUSANDS OF STUDENTS WHO HAVE ATTENDED, ENDURING THE HEAT OF THE LEARNING ENVIRONMENT AND HAVE BEEN ON HONOR ROLLS, ACHIEVED ACADEMIC AND ATHLETIC EXCELLENCE AND HAVE RECEIVED A GOOD EDUCATION, ENOUGH TO PROPEL THEM TO THE COLLEGE LEVEL AND BEYOND. A WARM LEARNING ENVIRONMENT DIDN'T SEEM TO HINDER THE OUTCOME.

I ATTENDED THAT SCHOOL FROM 1964 TO 1966. I SAT IN THE NON-AIR-CONDITIONED CLASSES WITH THE OTHER 30 STUDENTS PER CLASS FOR THREE YEARS. I LEARNED....SO DID EVERYONE ELSE. CLASSROOM FANS WERE BLOWING HOT AIR BUT WE SURVIVED. NOW, THE NEW BREED OF STUDENT JUST CANNOT LEARN IN THIS ENVIRONMENT. GRADES WILL SUFFER (AS IF THEY HAVEN'T ALREADY) AND THE NEW BREED OF SCHOOL PEOPLE WANT THEIR AIR-CONDITIONING AS THEY ARE DIFFERENT FROM THE EDUCATORS BEFORE THEM. NO ADVERSITY FOR THE NEW GENERATION I GUESS.

NICE LEAD-IN FOR THE LEVY WITH THIS STORY. HEARTWRENCHING.....GUT BUSTING STORIES. THAT'S THE REAL INTENT ISN'T IT? NOT SO MUCH THE COMFORT LEVEL IN THE SCHOOL BUT RATHER GETTING THE LEVY PASSED AND TO SOFTEN UP THE VOTERS BY APPEALING TO THE OLD EMOTIONS CONCERNING THE COMFORT LEVEL. NICE JOB. ISN'T THIS THE SECOND OR THIRD STORY APPEALING TO THE VOTERS USING THE OLD " THINGS ARE BAD AT THE SCHOOLS" ROUTINE? HOPEFULLY THE VOTERS WILL SEE THROUGH THIS FLAK. HARDSHIPS BE DAMED FOR PEOPLE ON A TIGHT BUDGET THESE DAYS.......WE WANT OUR LEVY PASSED REGARDLESS OF THAT HARDSHIP......AND, JUST LIKE THE ELEMENTARIES, WE DON'T FEEL AS IF WE NEED TO BE ACCOUNTABLE WHEN YOU GIVE US A NEW SCHOOL EITHER. DECADES OF BUSINESS AS USUAL IS GOOD ENOUGH. MERCY.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Sep 16 2013 at 10:21am
I hate to say this Vet. but the new generation of adults and kids are now wimps.

They have grown up in homes and cars with A/C on all the time. And if they have to spend any time in the heat, they complain about it. When I went to school in Springboro back in the 80's and 90's our elementary and Junior High Schools did not have Air Conditioning either, only the high school did. And in High school they kept it so cold we couldn't wait to get back into the heat :) lol

But I do agree the heat in the schools are probably worse now because of the new computers, projectors and electronics in the classrooms. And if you have those high temperatures mixed with electronics, you are asking for something to break, or overheat. That and the schools are risking a lawsuit if a child has to go to the hospital for heat related illness.

That's why I hate to say it but I have a feeling that the level will pass considering it is a relatively low millage compared to other new schools. That and the school is now over 90+ years old. My question was why wasn't the school updated and added Air Conditioning decades ago when it would have been cheaper to do so?



Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Sep 16 2013 at 11:23am

I hope they can build this school without me or mine voting for any new taxes. LOL 



Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Sep 16 2013 at 11:32am
ktf1179:

"My question was why wasn't the school updated and added Air Conditioning decades ago when it would have been cheaper to do so?"

IF THEY HAD DONE AS YOU SUGGEST AND ADDED AIR CONDITIONING, IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN AWAY THEIR CLAIMS THAT THE SCHOOL IS TOO OLD AND PAST IT'S TIME AND IT WOULD HAVE NEGATED THEIR ARGUMENT FOR GOING WITH THE CURRENT THEME OF "ALL NEW SCHOOLS WILL HELP THE KIDS LEARN MORE EFFECTIVELY" IF THEY WOULD HAVE SPENT MONEY ON AIR-CONDITIONING THE OLD HIGH SCHOOL YEARS AGO, THEY WOULD HAVE HAD TO EXPLAIN WHY THEY PUT MONEY INTO A BUILDING THAT OLD AND OUTDATED. THEY ALREADY SPENT A FORTUNE ON THE NEW WINDOWS.(SPEAKING OF NEW WINDOWS... ROOSEVELT HAD THEM INSTALLED SEVERAL YEARS AGO AND I BELIEVE THE NEW WINDOWS WENT THE WAY OF THE DEMOLITION DUMP TRUCKS WHEN ROOSEVELT WAS TORN DOWN. WONDER IF THEY BELIEVE THEY GOT THEIR MONEY'S WORTH OUT OF THOSE WINDOWS?

ktf1179:

"That's why I hate to say it but I have a feeling that the level will pass considering it is a relatively low millage compared to other new schools"

BUT WE THE VOTERS SHOULDN'T BE CONCERNED WITH THE OTHER SCHOOLS. WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED WITH WHETHER WE ARE GETTING OUR MONEY'S WORTH FROM THE FUNDS WE HAVE PLOWED INTO THIS DISTRICT SO FAR. THE TAXPAYER SHOULD JUDGE WHETHER THEIR MONEY SPENT TO DATE HAS BEEN A GOOD DEAL OR NOT, RIGHT? IF SO, KEEP GIVING THEM WHAT THEY ASK FOR. IF NOT, TIME TO SHUT DOWN THE MONEY FLOW. ANYONE THINK THE NEW ELEMENTARIES WERE A GOOD DEAL FOR THE MONEY?

ktf1179:

"I hate to say this Vet. but the new generation of adults and kids are now wimps"

SO HOW'S THAT KINDER/GENTLER/PAMPERED/TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF WORKING OUT FOR ALL OF US NOW? READY TO CHANGE COURSE YET OR HAVEN'T WE ALL HAD ENOUGH?







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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: itsamee
Date Posted: Sep 23 2013 at 3:38pm
I know I am late to the party, but I vote no on the new buildings right now. I just got my tax increase for bailing out the SR. Center.  Sorry schools, you will need to wait. I'm tired of paying for ya'll

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Itsa me, mario!


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Sep 24 2013 at 10:08am
You know they could fund the new schools without adding taxes, if they force the city to work on raising property values in the city and enforcing the ordinances bystrictly going after all the people who violate them. There are too many people who live in Middletown that either don't have the money, or just don't give a crap about making there houses and properties look good anymore. Instead you have junk cars parked on the streets, gutters hanging down, dead trees in there front yards, and in some cases they have appliances, and ATV's parked on there front yards. These are the people who are dragging down propery values and thus reducing the amount of money to the City and the Schools.


Posted By: Perplexed
Date Posted: Sep 24 2013 at 11:08am
I thought that the Doogmeister's code enforcement blitzkrieg was supposed to remedy these problems in residential neighborhoods?  Whatever happened to the 2,300 properties that were cited for violations back in 2009?  It seems that he is more preoccupied with so-called downtown projects, property demolition and S. Main Street.  After all, he is now the Community Demolition Prosecutor.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Sep 24 2013 at 11:40am
Originally posted by ktf1179 ktf1179 wrote:

You know they could fund the new schools without adding taxes, if they force the city to work on raising property values in the city and enforcing the ordinances bystrictly going after all the people who violate them. There are too many people who live in Middletown that either don't have the money, or just don't give a crap about making there houses and properties look good anymore. Instead you have junk cars parked on the streets, gutters hanging down, dead trees in there front yards, and in some cases they have appliances, and ATV's parked on there front yards. These are the people who are dragging down propery values and thus reducing the amount of money to the City and the Schools.


I agree ktf....didn't use to be this way three or four decades ago. People actually had jobs, wanted to work, had a little disposable income for upkeep and took pride in their homes and neighborhoods. Guess the only solution is to call Gilleland and her crew and encourage them to add more low income and Section 8 candidates. Let's go for the complete destruction of the city. Let's get that voucher number off the charts! Meanwhile.... does seem like since Gilleland's people started accepting any and all to Section 8/low incomeland, and when we first learned that we have an abundance of heroin in town, the town started looking a little ghetto..ish didn't it? (with the exception of the Highlands, the S. Main St. area and other selected areas of town, primarily in the north/northeast). Alot of things dragging down the property values here with the condition of the city, the school performance, the way the town is run and it's reputation primary players in the equation.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Sep 24 2013 at 2:01pm
kft179,
I don't disagree with anything that you said regarding property values, but it would not generate the money the schools need for the new/re-habbed buildings.  The original bond levy is for a fixed dollar amount.  If property values go up then the millage drops so that the total dollars to the school district to pay the bonds stays the same.  Most of the operating levy's are the same way.  They are for fixed dollar amount not for a particular millage. 
 
Plus legally the operating money and bond money can not be comingled.
 


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Sep 26 2013 at 9:23am
Journal story concerning the renovations going on at Barnitz Stadium...

Home > NewsSponsored By:Posted: 2:10 p.m. Wednesday, Sept. 25, 2013


Final design stage begins for Barnitz Stadium renovations

Katrina Fugate, head coach for girls soccer, said the varsity and junior varsity teams played their first games on the synthetic turf this past weekend. She said the players were apprehensive to the change at first, but were pleased with the quality of the field.

“It’s the new hot thing and they can’t wait to be on the field as much as possible,” Fugate said, adding all games will be played at Barnitz in the 2014-15 season

QUESTION.... IF THE GIRL'S SOCCER TEAM WILL START PLAY EXCLUSIVELY AT BARNITZ IN 2014-2015, AND THE BOYS TEAM WILL PROBABLY FOLLOW, WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THE CURRENT SOCCER FIELD IN FRONT OF THE CURRENT HIGH SCHOOL IF THE BOND LEVY DOESN'T PASS AND THE CHANGES AND RECONFIGURATION OF THE ATHLETIC FIELDS ARE NO LONGER AN OPTION? TURN IT INTO MORE PARKING OR KEEP IT AS A PRACTICE FIELD EVEN THOUGH THE GRASS IS DIFFERENT THAN THE BARNITZ TURF?

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Oct 16 2013 at 12:42pm
Journal....

Payroll deductions for school levy campaigns questioned

School districts that deduct money from employee paychecks to help fund levy campaigns are not breaking the law by doing so, according to the chief legal counsel for the Ohio School Board Association.

But a state anti-tax group claims the practice is an illegal use of resources and personnel of publicly funded schools. Officials with the Cincinnati-based Coalition Opposed to Additional Spending and Taxes (COAST) say they are exploring whether to take legal action to stop school districts from engaging in the activity

Hollie Reedy, OSBA’s chief legal counsel, said Ohio Revised Code Section 3599.031 allows school districts to make certain types of voluntary payroll deductions for employees to support a ballot issue. She said this is different from ORC Section 3315.07, which prohibits districts from using public funds to support or oppose the passage of a school levy or bond issue or to pay an employee for time spent on any activity to influence the outcome of a levy or bond issue

OK, TEACHERS ARE PAID USING TAXPAYER DOLLARS RIGHT? THE TEACHER TURNS RIGHT AROUND AND DONATES SOME OF THEIR SALARY (TAXPAYER MONEY) TO SUPPORT SCHOOL AND BOND LEVIES. THE MONEY FROM TAXPAYERS IS "FILTERED" THROUGH THE TEACHER IN SALARY, BUT WHEN DONATED, ENDS UP BEING THE SAME AS DIRECT TAXPAYER MONEY GOING TO SUPPORT SCHOOL LEVIES, WHICH IS A DIRECT VIOLATION OF ORC SECTION 3315.07 LISTED ABOVE. LOOKS LIKE WE HAVE TWO SECTIONS HERE THAT ARE IN CONFLICT WITH EACH OTHER DEPENDING ON HOW ONE WISHES TO INTERPRET THEM. IT IS NOT CORRECT TO USE PUBLIC MONEY TO SUPPORT SCHOOL LEVIES AS IT INFRINGES ON THE RIGHTS OF THOSE WHO OPPOSE THOSE LEVIES, HELPING ONLY THOSE WHO SUPPORT THE SCHOOLS. FAIRNESS?


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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: Observer
Date Posted: Oct 16 2013 at 2:37pm
If their donation was a required condition of their employment that creates a serious issue, but i don't think that's what is happening here.  I don't know much more than what was posted here but i don't see how this is all that different than if a teacher wrote a check to the campaign committee out of his/her personal checking account.  The teacher salary would still have been paid with public funds. I would think telling teachers they can't voluntarily support a levy campaign would be a free speech violation.  


Posted By: Miss Kitty
Date Posted: Oct 16 2013 at 5:01pm
TEACHERS ARE OVER PAID!
We don't need new schools.
We need to take care of the ones we have.
VOTE NO FOR THE LEVEY!!!!!!


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Oct 17 2013 at 6:48am
And so here we go again, with the same message, just coming from a different super this time......Journal story....

Ison: ‘Now is the time’ to pass levy

MIDDLETOWN —
Sam Ison, superintendent of the Middletown City School District, said “now is the time” for residents on Nov. 5 to approve Issue 9, a $55 million bond issue that would provide the funds to build a middle school and renovate the high school.

He said for the district to be eligible for a $40 million grant from the Ohio Facilities Commission, voters must pass the levy within the next 13 months. Otherwise, he said, another district that passes its levy would be eligible for the money.

As Ison said: “The clock is ticking.”

The entire project is expected to cost about $95 million, Ison said. He said the 3.95-mill bond issue and a 0.26-mill permanent improvement levy would allow the district to build the middle school on the high school grounds on South Breiel Boulevard and make additions and renovations to the 44-year-old high school.

SO THE MESSAGE HERE FROM ISON IS THAT THE DEPENDENCY FOR PASSING A LEVY IS ALL CENTERED ON A TIMELINE TO ALLOW THE STATE TO PAY FOR A PORTION. NO MENTION HERE ABOUT A PLAN AFTER THE NEW SCHOOLS ARE BUILT TO IMPROVE THE DISTRICT PERFORMANCE. BASICALLY AND FOREMOST, "PASS THE LEVY BECAUSE WE WILL LOSE THE MONEY IF YOU DON'T AND WE WON'T GET WHAT WE WANT". IT WOULDN'T BE "PASS THE LEVY TO HELP US IMPROVE" BECAUSE ISON KNOWS THAT THE LAST TIME THEY ASKED THE VOTERS TO BUILD 'EM NEW SCHOOLS, IT DIDN'T YIELD ANY FAVORABLE RESULTS IN THE ELEMENTARIES.

He said the technology needs to be improved at the high school so the students can “get up to par.”

SO, JUST LIKE THE THEME THAT PRICE SOLD THE VOTERS ON WITH HIS "NEW SCHOOLS WILL IMPROVE PERFORMANCE BECAUSE IT WILL PROVIDE THE LATEST IN TECHNOLOGY" THEME, ISON IS TAKING THE SAME ROUTE WITH HIS "TECHNOLOGY NEEDS TO BE IMPROVED SO THAT STUDENTS CAN "GET UP TO PAR" (WHATEVER THAT MEANS) THEME. SOUNDS LIKE A BROKEN RECORD FROM BOTH SUPERS. YOU ALL HAVE SEEN WHAT THE NEW ELEMENTARIES HAVE PRODUCED FOR 45 MILLION. ARE YOU STILL WILLING TO GIVE THE SCHOOL PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT A SECOND TIME?......SERIOUSLY? IF SO, WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO CHANGE YOUR MIND TO SEE THAT THIS "BUILD EVERYTHING NEW AND ALL WILL IMPROVE" SCENARIO HAS NOT MADE A DIFFERENCE TO DATE? DO YOU FEEL YOU HAVE GOTTEN ANYTHING FOR YOUR MONEY AS YET?

ISON: "Safety issues also are a concern at the high school, he said. He said the improvements would benefit the district, but also the Middletown community"

AHH, ANOTHER ANGLE TO SELL THE LEVY....SAFETY. AND JUST HOW WOULD THE IMPROVEMENTS BENEFIT THE COMMUNITY MR. ISON? NEW SCHOOLS WILL STILL NOT TRUMP THE REPUTATION AS A POOR PERFORMER. THE NEWEST CAR ON THE BLOCK, WITH ALL THE BELLS AND WHISTLES IS WORTHLESS IF THE CAR WON'T RUN. THE TABLE HAS ALREADY BEEN SET ON THIS DISTRICT AS TO SURROUNDING COMMUNITY PERCEPTION ABOUT YOUR SCHOOLS. THEY ARE NOT CONSIDERED BY POTENTIAL RESIDENTS BECAUSE OF THE DISCIPLINE ISSUES AND THE PERFORMANCE. HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH CONTENT, NOT SURFACE FLUFF.

“It’s all of us together,” said Ison, who added a passed levy would be “advantageous” to the community

SEE ABOVE

Ison, in his first year as superintendent, said Middletown could be one of the few districts in the country with seventh graders through seniors on the same campus with a college, Miami University Middletown, across the street

AND, THE POINT IS? WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSE TO DO TO HELP ACCOMPLISH IMPROVEMENT?

The levy would cost the owner of a $75,000 home about $9.21 per month. Ferrell said that equates to about 30 cents a day, which is “very minimal.”

YEP, ABOUT A CUP AND A HALF OF STARBUCKS A MONTH. A QUARTER OF A TANK OF GAS A MONTH OR 9 DOUBLE CHEESEBURGERS FROM MCD'S ON THE DOLLAR MENU.....NOT MUCH AT ALL, BREAK IT DOWN ANY WAY YOU LIKE......BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT. THE POINT IS WHAT ARE WE GETTING FOR OUR MONEY BY APPROVING ALL THESE BOND, EMERGENCY, TEMPORARY, PERMANENT AND OPERATING LEVIES ALL THE TIME IF THE PERFORMANCE NEVER CHANGES NOR IMPROVES? HOW MANY CHANCES DO THE LEVY SATURATION PEOPLE GET? DO THE LEVY SUPPORTERS ENJOY POURING MONEY DOWN THE BLACK HOLE OF MEDIOCRITY? DO YOU ALL KEEP REWARDING THE SCHOOL PEOPLE AND NEVER SEE ANY UPWARD PROGRESS/NO ACOUNTABILTY? DO YOU ALL DO THAT WITH YOUR STOCK PORTFOLIOS OR DO YOU NOT PUT ONE MORE PENNY INTO A STOCK AND UNLOAD IT TO CUT YOUR LOSSES?

THERE ARE URBAN SCHOOL DISTRICTS ACROSS THIS COUNTY THAT ARE PRODUCING BETTER RESULTS IN BUILDINGS THAT ARE JUST AS OLD AS VAIL. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BUILDINGS. IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH CONTENT, CURRICULUM, TEACHING METHODS, HOLDING ADMIN., TEACHERS AND STUDENTS ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR LITTLE PIECE OF THE PIE. IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH CLASS STRUCTURE THROUGH DISCIPLINE AND THE ENDING OF KINDER/GENTLER BEING REPLACED BY TOUGHER EXPECTATIONS OF BEHAVIOR. JUST STOP BEING SO DAM NICE TO THE TROUBLEMAKERS AND CLAMP DOWN ON THEM.

UNTIL THE PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT AND DEMAND CHANGE, THIS, AND OTHER URBAN DISTRICTS WILL NOT PROSPER. SCHOOL PEOPLE. AGAIN DEMONSTRATING THEY ARE IN THEIR OWN LITTLE WORLD, TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS TO THE MAINSTREAM THINKING AND TO IDENTIFYING AND ADDRESSING THE REAL ISSUES. JMO



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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: Richard Saunders
Date Posted: Oct 17 2013 at 9:12am
It is interesting to note that the last time, they were comparing the cost of the levy for a $100,000 house.
 
This time, it is being compared to the cost for a $75,000 house.
 
Sad commentary towards the property values in ye olde Middle-towne.


Posted By: itsamee
Date Posted: Oct 17 2013 at 9:50am
I think they wanted it to sound cheaper more than anything.  You get it in your head that its less than $10 / month so you go and vote yes for it.  I did the math on my current home (which I thought was wrong at first, but have since seen I am correct) and I am looking at around $15 / month as an increase. 

Now, if we had not already bailed out the stupid senior center (about $8 a month) and helped the libraries (about $2 a month) along with being (apparently) the only property in Middletown that INCREASED in value (adding about $9 / month in tax rev) I would be all for this, but the nickel and dime increases need to end. Over the last 4 years, my house bill has gone up almost $50 a month!  Add this school levy and it will be $65 / month.  

Middletown, you have to stop voting yes on all this stupid stuff.  I usually support schools and such, but right now it is not a good time.  Especially with all the financial waste that is prevalent in MCSD.

I now step off my soapbox. 


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Itsa me, mario!


Posted By: Miss Kitty
Date Posted: Oct 19 2013 at 10:01pm
Originally posted by spiderjohn spiderjohn wrote:

So-- what happens to the old hs, now a middle school, when it is closed?
Can the system afford to tear it down?
Will it be looted of any valuable woodwork or fixtures like the other schools were?
Will the property be sold?
Will the taxpayers get good bang for their buck through salvage/sales?



I'm sure the Stained Glass business owners would LOVE to have all the wood-work and other great valuable items in the old high school. I bet they'll even take it off the schools hands for FREE!!!!!
Hopefully tax payers will vote the school bond down.


Posted By: Miss Kitty
Date Posted: Oct 19 2013 at 10:16pm
I believe our school year is around 185 school days. When you calculate the majority of Middletown city school teachers wages, most of them are making well over $400 for each day they work. Are you kidding me! Let the teachers build a new middle school, hell, they can afford it.... Some teachers are making more. Spending needs to stop! Imo- please correct me if i am wrong....


Posted By: TonyB
Date Posted: Oct 20 2013 at 10:52am
Miss Kitty,

You are wrong! I'll try to give you an answer to what I think you're wrong about but after reading the posts here, I doubt you'll agree; but here goes:

1. You say that teachers are making $400 a day for the days they work? Sounds good but let's look at it from another perspective. If you were to hire a babysitter or employ child day care, what would be the cost per day? Let's be conservative and say $20 per day. With 30 students per class, that would figure $600 a day. Seems like a bargain now, doesn't it.

2. Teachers are overpaid? I thought children are our future. I can't see how you'd want someone who isn't qualified to teach to be the instructors for our future. Do you have any idea how much time and money was spent by said teacher to become a teacher? Do you even care or is this a case of  class and economic envy? Do you have any experience in the classroom?

3. The whole idea that spending needs to stop is a ridiculous notion. I'll use the city's funding of street repair as a prime example. They stopped spending money on it and look at the condition of the streets. Now if you're arguing for more oversight on spending; that we could agree upon.

It really boils down to what kind of city you want to live in. If you want better schools, not only will they need to be paid for, you'll need better oversight of how that money is being spent. I'm not endorsing or opposing the levy because I can see both sides of the issue here, but bashing the teachers who are educating our future doesn't seem to make sense to me. You obviously have your reasons; I just don't see the reasoning behind your posts.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Oct 20 2013 at 6:30pm
TonyB says

"It really boils down to what kind of city you want to live in. If you want better schools, not only will they need to be paid for, you'll need better oversight of how that money is being spent"

THE NEW SCHOOLS HAVE ALREADY BEEN PAID FOR TONYB. 45 MILLION WORTH OF APPROVED BOND LEVY MONEY. HAVE THE SCHOOLS "GOTTEN BETTER" BECAUSE WE SPENT THE MONEY AS YOU SUGGEST? DON'T THINK SO. COMPARE THE ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE PRE BOND/OLDER SCHOOLS AND POST BOND APPROVAL/NEW ELEMENTARIES. THE PERFORMANCE, AFTER A FEW YEARS TO IMPROVE, HAS BEEN ABOUT THE SAME. WHAT DID WE GET FOR OUR MONEY AND WHY DID THE SCHOOL PEOPLE WANT THESE NEW SCHOOLS IF IT DIDN'T YIELD ANY BETTER RESULTS?

ANSWER:THEY WANTED TO WORK IN A NICER ENVIRONMENT WITH ALL THE BELLS AND WHISTLES THAT HAVE PROVEN NOT TO MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE IN THE END.

BASED ON THE RESULTS OF THE LAST BOND LEVY, THE VOTERS WOULD BE FOOLS TO APPROVE ANOTHER TO BUILD THE MIDDLE SCHOOL. THE DISTRICT HASN'T MADE GOOD ON THE FIRST LEVY YET. IT ISN'T LOGICAL TO KEEP GIVING THESE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT WHEN THEY DON'T PRODUCE BETTER RESULTS. WHY WOULD ANYONE DO THAT?

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: itsamee
Date Posted: Oct 21 2013 at 8:18am
Kitty, 

While there are some older teachers that are there making a decent amount, most of the newer teachers are not even coming close.  I think the year 0 step is $28,000. Couple that with the fact they used to have to take a pay cut after year one, plus see a rise in benefits cost, it is not worth much to start your career at MCSD.

Making that 185 day / year argument is so off.  First, there are many student vacation days that teachers do not get. When students are released early, teacher are required to stay. Over the summer, some teachers have to mandatory professional development. Teachers work after hours grading papers and tests (imagine being an English teacher hand needing to grade 100 ten page reports....). Etc.  
In turn, most teachers have to buy their own "extras." I know a couple years ago, teachers had to purchase spare number 2 pencils in case kids did not bring them for stat tests. The cost was not reimbursed. I know, big deal, less than $10, right?  But these costs happen over and over again.

My opinion is, teachers should start out around $40,000 or slightly more. MCSD has many qualified teachers who get shafted on a repeated basis (sometimes by other teachers, sadly). 

That being said, the ones over them need pay cuts.  My thought is NO ONE but the super should be making six figures.  Everyone else needs to be knocked down and take the same hit teachers do. When they can get the administration costs down, I will be more likely to vote yes on levies.  But come on, a first time tech director making $106,000? HR guys making over $100k? Seriously?  

When I was employed for various districts, I have been asked to "take one for the good of society" and get paid less. Maybe they should as well....  


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Itsa me, mario!


Posted By: wannaknow
Date Posted: Oct 21 2013 at 8:27am
What does a building have to do with learning anything? If the teachers are dedicated and the students wanted to learn they could all sit in an open field. We have all these beautiful schools in Middletown and bad reports on most of them. It's what's In the building, not the building.


Posted By: Historic House Guy
Date Posted: Oct 21 2013 at 4:23pm
So lets see, don't spend the money so kids can take their books home and study or do homework, but instead, build a new school... Yeah, that should work! Stern Smile

Idiots, glad we got our kids out of that school.


Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Oct 22 2013 at 10:56am
Miss Kitty, the bond issue on the ballot is to raise money to build and maintain school buildings.  That money cannot be used for teacher salaries, which come out of the general fund.  So, the issue you are asked to vote on this November has nothing to do with teacher salaries.
 
However, since you brought it up -- your $400/day number is wrong.  $400 x 185 days would be $74,000, and the only teachers who make that much are a small handful who have a Ph.D (doctorate) degree and 25 years or more experience teaching.  The starting salary for teachers in Middletown is somewhere around $34,000 (which is at the low end of the going rate in other school districts in the region).  The top pay for teachers with a Masters but not a Ph.D and 25 years experience is about $65,000.  Also, while the students are in school 185 days, teachers report to work several days before school starts and stay several days later, so about 190 days.  $34,000 divided by 190 is $179, less than half of what you claim.
 
Itsamee, principals and Central Office administrators make more than teachers for a number of reasons.  Principals work several more weeks each year than teachers, have advanced degrees and licensing from the state, and are responsible for supervising all of the teachers in the building.  Central Office administrators work year-round, have advanced degrees and licensing, and are responsible for functions and departments district-wide.  It is pretty fundamental that managers make more than front-line employees, whether it is manufacturing, sales, retail, etc. 
 
ALL employees in the Middletown Schools (including administrators) took two 1% pay reductions in the past 3 years, and at the same time their contribution to health insurance premiums doubled from 10% to 20%.  Lots of school districts in the state negotiated pay freezes, but I am not aware of any others where the unions agreed to actual pay cuts.  This was necessary for MIddletown to get its budget in line with reduced revenue, and it shows how dedicated our teachers and support staff are.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Oct 22 2013 at 12:43pm
Ms. Andrew:

"However, since you brought it up -- your $400/day number is wrong. $400 x 185 days would be $74,000, and the only teachers who make that much are a small handful who have a Ph.D (doctorate) degree and 25 years or more experience teaching. The starting salary for teachers in Middletown is somewhere around $34,000 (which is at the low end of the going rate in other school districts in the region). The top pay for teachers with a Masters but not a Ph.D and 25 years experience is about $65,000"

Ok, let's say 65 thou for 185 days of work....

That's $351. per day, wages your average Joe would kill for and never see in their lifetime. Provides a very nice living. Most outside the academic world work more days per year than 185. Year around actually. No three month break. How many of those 185 days are taken as sick, vacation or personal days? How many holidays/off the job conferences are included in that 185 day count? Gotta take that off the total which elevates the pay per day on the job amount as each day not on the job ups the salaried money pot.

Regardless of how this all breaks out, the fact is, when all people outside the academic world are working during the summer months, the teachers, admin and other school personnel are enjoying those summer trips, working in the yard or getting that sun tan while the world works away. That counts too, Ms. Andrew. I know, I have two teachers within a few houses in my neighborhood and I have seen their summer itinerary.

Oh, and the starting salary for teachers in the Midd. school system is $34 thou. which, as you state, is "at the lower end of the other school districts in the region".........but, Ms. Andrew.....no one is holding a gun to their head to accept that job at that salary. Plenty of other states with numerous school districts, that may offer better opportunities to start. If they accept the job, they shouldn't complain about the pay. It's not like Middletown is the only game in town.

And the pay increase out of the old paycheck for benefit premiums? The private sector has been doing this for years and is a common practice with most companies. Your education people are not enduring anything any other worker is not encountering today.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jan 14 2014 at 11:06am
WELL ALRIGHT!!! ANOTHER ATTEMPT TO SOFTEN YOUR HEART AND STEAL YOUR WALLET.....JOURNAL STORY-

School district’s older buildings become money pits

BUTLER COUNTY —
The recent cold snap that swept through Butler County tested the older school buildings in Middletown and Fairfield, some of which failed with frozen pipes and busted boilers, requiring costly repairs.

School officials say the fact that those buildings buckled under the stress of record-low temperatures is just one more example of why they need to be replaced.

Both Fairfield and Middletown tried and failed to pass bond issues in November to build new schools, and both are trying the ballot again in May. Officials in both districts argue that it would be cheaper and wiser for voters to approve these tax measures — a collective $120 million — than to continue to spend their tax dollars trying to patch up buildings nearly 100 years old.

“Systems designed to last 50 to 60 years are now being expanded out to the 90-year mark. They are well past their life expectancy, thus making them very hard to maintain,” said George Long, business manager for Middletown City Schools.

The recent cold weather brought with it a host of maintenance problems for Fairfield and Middletown schools.

Pipes burst at Middletown High School, Fairfield High School and at Fairfield’s Options Academy, which forced that venue to close for a day last week, school officials said. Tom Weiser, the director of business operations for Fairfield City Schools, said insurance deductibles are $5,000 per incident, and the district’s premiums have already risen $32,000 this school year, due to a high number of claims.

“I didn’t have a single problem at any of my new buildings or at the renovated elementary buildings,” Long said of the recent weather. “At the high school, though, we experienced nine pipe freezes.

“We put temporary heat in four of the classrooms at the high school because the ventilators that came with the building are now so rusted that we can’t simply go in and make easy repairs,” he said. “We have to either rebuild the custom parts within those units, because we can’t get parts for them anymore, or we have to replace the whole unit.”

Middletown schools is asking voters to pass a $55 million bond issue to build a new middle school and renovate the high school. It would cost the owner of a $100,000 home $147 a year in additional taxes. Meanwhile, Fairfield schools is seeking approval of a $65 million bond issue that would build three new school and cost the owner of a $100,000 an extra $91 a year in property taxes.

Middletown officials say it would cost less to build a new middle school than to make repeated repairs to Vail, which was built in 1923. For example, Long said putting a new roof on Vail — an expense not yet planned — would cost $900,000. And while frozen pipes aren’t as big of a concern at Vail, the steam heat the building uses creates another set of problems.

“We can’t regulate the heat,” Long said. “It’s like your grandmother’s old house with radiators in it; you were either roasting or it was cold.”

Meanwhile, Fairfield officials say they would have to spend $5 million a year in maintenance costs just to keep its oldest buildings — Central Elementary, built in 1929, and the Freshman School — in usable condition.

A recent sign of Central Elementary’s building wear reared its head when the boiler broke down in December while students were still in school.

“That eight-inch header (that goes into both boilers) had actually rusted through. We had to have a contractor come in and cut out roughly a five-foot header and then weld in a new section of that header,” said Weiser. “That’s something that has just occurred over years and years of aging — the corrosion that takes place with steel.”

The other major problem at Central has been the steam lines in the walls and under the floors. Those corrode to the point where they leak steam, Weiser said.

“Once you have live steam escaping those pipes, it creates issues. We’ve had it dissolve plaster because of all the moisture. It can lead to mold,” he said.

While Central is not quite as old as Vail, Fairfield has another aging building: the Fairfield Freshman School right next to Central on Dixie Highway. The 63-year-old building has its own share of problems, Weiser said, such as deteriorating brick and mortar on the exterior.

“If we don’t pass the bond passed, we will have to spend $5 million just to get (Central and Freshman) in a very usable state,” Weiser said. “When we get done spending that $5 million, it doesn’t look any different. It’s going to be the same buildings. That’s not even replacing the boilers.”

If Fairfield and Middletown don’t pass their latest bond issues, they will lose state funding to help pay for the cost of the new building construction, officials have said. For Middletown, the state is contributing $40 million; for Fairfield, that total is $19 million.

Opponents of Fairfield and Middletown’s bond issues did not return calls seeking comment Monday. (WONDER IF THEY EVEN ASKED ANYONE WHO IS OPPOSED?)

I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE 6 COMMENTS AT THE END OF THE ARTICLE. KINDA SAYS IT ALL. I DO KNOW THAT DUKE, YALE, HARVARD AND PRINCETON UNIVERSITES, ALONG WITH THE NAVAL ACADEMY AND WEST POINT, ARE ALL CONSIDERING TEARING DOWN THEIR BUILDINGS BECAUSE THEY ARE OLDER THAN 50 OR 60 YEARS OLD. LOOKS LIKE THE MIDD./FAIRFIELD SCHOOLS FAILED TO DEVELOP A PLAN ON A PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE PROGRAM ALL THIS TIME, RELYING ON THE TAXPAYER TO REPLACE THEIR BUILDINGS ONCE THEY START COSTING MONEY TO MAINTAIN. GUESS THEY THINK WE HAVE A CONSTANT MONEY OVERLOAD AND CAN PAY ON DEMAND. IN MIDDLETOWN, IT'S ONLY AN INCREASE OF $147 BUCKS FOR A $100,000 HOME ON THE OLD PROPERTY TAXES. I KNOW THAT WON"T BE A PROBLEM FOR THOSE HOMEOWNERS ON A LIMITED INCOME, EATING BAR K HOTDOGS AND LIVING IN AN IMPOVERISHED TOWN......OR WILL IT?    .....BUT THEN, WE ALL KNOW THE NEW SCHOOL ADVOCATES DON'T CARE ABOUT SUCH THINGS, DO THEY.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.



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