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COMBINED SEWERS

Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: Engineering
Forum Description: City Engineering Department
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5429
Printed Date: Jun 24 2018 at 6:58am


Topic: COMBINED SEWERS
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Subject: COMBINED SEWERS
Date Posted: Aug 21 2013 at 10:14am

After watching the presentation of the new 300 million dollar Separation Sewer Plan required by EPA at last night council meeting I only have one question….
WHERE ARE ALL THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT HAVE BEEN COLLECTED OVER THE PAST 20 YEARS FOR THIS PROJECT?




Replies:
Posted By: LMAO
Date Posted: Aug 21 2013 at 10:57am
Wasted on "PET" projects.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 21 2013 at 11:03am
City Hall Magic with the past/present Finance Directors as the magicians.

Money is collected. Money is placed in the intended area in the budget. Money is moved, at a later date, to the General Fund where it loses it's intended purpose and identity. Money is funneled into other areas of interest like the downtown spectacle, special property purchases and salaries for friends of the city.

Likewise, what happened to the gas tax money intended for the streets the last three decades? (See above format for money flow)

The old switcherroo with nothing under any choice in the old shell game. Watch closely, as they are pros at making once visible money disappear.

-------------
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Aug 21 2013 at 11:51am
Hey, Les why don't you remind them of their "fiduciary responsibility" to other people's money???


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 08 2013 at 9:21am
So.......You people have never pulled money from your savings account to pay for an emergency.............Or maybe you budgeted entertainment at one price and car expense at other................Then your transmission/engine/brakes/tires failed, did you maintain the same budget?    In a perfect world, budgets work......


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Nov 08 2013 at 9:25am
It's not the transferring of funds that is the issue, it is what they have been spending it on that has been the issue.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 08 2013 at 10:54am
I am anything but a conspiratist, a thought provoking person thinking the government is behind all events that occur. Indeed, Most people are factual, pragmatic, and reasonable minded individuals.
 
If one reviews the history of Middletown, its history of corruption is rather startling to say the least. There is wire tapping in the jail over hearing attorney/ client communication, there is money spent insanely with no return nor logical explanation downtown when a former city manager said the downtown was dead and city council members, doing an about face,  there are payments of $75,000 to a small group of people aka MMF with no non profit disclosure nor filing at the state level, there are mis-statements (being diplomatic like the NY Times), that a former city manager stated repeated even at 25% reserve, that left the city only at 90 days to service its obligations; yet, for the past few years, its been dropped to 15%, with no mention that if a major unexpected event occurred, it would leave the city with a month cash reserve. Who is lying; former city manager or current city manager and council?
 
We heard annually, just like state, budget has to be balanced, yet, I have been reading Mayor Mulligan states the city has at least one year, perhaps, two, we are running a negative balance and deficit. This is a violation of the ordinance and Ohio's municipal statutes.
 
Les Landon states routinely in winter, the city has no compensatory obligation to repair a broken car part from a pothole, or other damage; yet, a major northeastern city early winter 2013, lost a judgment for damage and bodily  harm in the $ Mm range, about 4 Mm to be exact.
 
Now, the issue of collection of money for services to be used specifically just like public safety, is altered and not accounted. While one can move your own personal finances into one account to another, you are ABSOLUTELY incorrect, it is legal to do so in a municipality. Same goes for collection of funds, for one purpose, and used for another. I am MORE concerned money is misappropriated and unaccounted, than what it is used for. The ends DO NOT justify the means.
 
My gosh, a woman pulls out a campaign application a month before its due, and blows out two seasoned sitting council members. I believe many, on face, discount the seriousness of the irregularities that occur in Middletown quite commonly.
 
There will be a battle on double charge on street lights; make no mistake.         


-------------
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Nov 08 2013 at 10:56am
HdM:did you read the above post by VietVet. That pretty much sums up what's been happening in city council.


Posted By: Justsayin
Date Posted: Nov 08 2013 at 9:29pm
Look, Judy's boyfriend (Sam) is a life long Middletown artist who's dream has been to make downtown an art mecca. Ann Mort is Sam's life long best friend.  The M-twins are friends of Sam and Mort. Money is spent downtown like a drunken sailor. Mort and the Mulligans rubber stamps whatever Sam and Queen Judy want.  How many times has the queen remodeled her office over the last several years and at what cost?  All the worthless buildings?  Art buildings? Why is Greg Pratt constantly hired by Judy instead of using the city attorney? At what cost? The list goes on and on. The whole setup is a sorry shame at the expense of everyone in this town. It is pathetic. Wake up Middletown! Get rid of these people!


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 09 2013 at 7:51am
I think you worry about too much......Legal , illegal......Come on, there is an affirmative defense to most  "illegal" actions...

The end don't justify the means.......................So the end result is to supply the citizens public services, Ok great. You basically saying that the city doesn't have the authority to move money as needed.........So if we collect and allocate money for street lights and something happens to the water supply infrastructure, then we just have lights at night but no water supplied to residents...................Yea that sounds like a plan ..

Sure on the surface if you look you will see corruption like processes............But has anyone ever dug deep and found the real reasons for the conspiracies that most are implying....

Don't get me wrong, I believe in an open government for all to see and question, decisions by those in charge are made with all the facts/opinions available to them... Those on outside question and apply their opinions hindsight and mostly without all the opinions and facts....

Like the supposedly wiretapping on an attorney/client in jail, do you know for a fact there wasn't a federal investigation in place allowing such an activity ?  

Bottomline , you have had water/sewer, roads to drive on, street lights, civil/criminal courts, fire, police and EMT services trash pickup and snow removal for at least 50 years .............So exactly what is your complaint..? 


Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Nov 09 2013 at 10:10am

HdMechanical  - I think you worry about too much......Legal , illegal......Come on, there is an affirmative defense to most  "illegal" actions...

 

The end don't justify the means.......................So the end result is to supply the citizens public services, Ok great. You basically saying that the city doesn't have the authority to move money as needed.........So if we collect and allocate money for street lights and something happens to the water supply infrastructure, then we just have lights at night but no water supplied to residents...................Yea that sounds like a plan ..

 

Sure on the surface if you look you will see corruption like processes............But has anyone ever dug deep and found the real reasons for the conspiracies that most are implying....

 

Don't get me wrong, I believe in an open government for all to see and question, decisions by those in charge are made with all the facts/opinions available to them... Those on outside question and apply their opinions hindsight and mostly without all the opinions and facts....

 

Like the supposedly wiretapping on an attorney/client in jail, do you know for a fact there wasn't a federal investigation in place allowing such an activity ?  

 

Bottomline , you have had water/sewer, roads to drive on, street lights, civil/criminal courts, fire, police and EMT services trash pickup and snow removal for at least 50 years .............So exactly what is your complaint..? 

HdMechanical
    Sign in under your real name and we shall have a full discussion about the past actions of the City Hall and where all this money has gone….millions and millions of dollars. I’m more than willing to tell you exactly what my complaint is.
    WARNING…the old farts in this community DO REMEMBER why these charges were approved so many years ago.  


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 09 2013 at 10:14am
Actually HdMechanical is my real name.......or shall we say my business name....I have no fear of using my name since I do on several other forums, a simple search on Ohio 's business gateway website for HdMechanical will yield the results you want or need... 

Steve Poff


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 09 2013 at 10:40am
welcome HDM/whomever--your input is appreciated
 
the wiretapping incidents were widespread and absolutely illegal
maybe a fed case somewhere but few and far between
u r defending the in-defensible there
would be interesting to list any out-of-court $$ settlements there
 
city fund-shifting?
wouldn't be such an issue if the city WAS shifting funds openly to where they are actually needed to benefit the entire community--however "they" are moving money from dedicated areas into ?able and expensive property purchases followed by insider giveaways of the same properties + large $$s of re-hab cash---money taken from the city taxpayers to be given to multi-millionares who promise the moon and seldom deliver. If the city put conditions and requirements on these giveaways, then we might get better, quicker more meaningful results imo.  BUT-- our govt. gives it away with no such guarantees or timetables. Pendleton being a prime example--the Rose Building, First National and Masonic lately and the Manchester coming up shortly.
 
These large commercial properties used to pay substantial property taxes and house numerous mid/upper income taxpaying employees. Now we have next to none of either. And ALL in the same area with most of the recipients intertwined into the city inner circle. It would be very telling to read a graph/chart showing 40 years of expenditures/giveaways in our area formerly known as downtown, and the results as to jobs created, payrolls, retail/service sales and income/property taxes paid. You might be very surprised and better understand the concerns.
 
The rest of the city has been abandoned, other than haphazard property demos(long overdue) in order to fill requirements for using fed grant $$. We already have enough green space and brownfields/grayfields imo.
Drive around our city--particularly from Baltimore St up to Supthin and in Ward 2. More properties that are now not going to produce property tax OR be useful.
 
The recent local elections solved little.
Despite bold election time promises, no $$$ still =s no $$$, how the public safety fix will be handled should prove interesting. Can't wait to hear ?Mr.Picard's and Mrs.Bronston's solutions.
 
We now know that tax increases won't fly with voters, especially for public safety where we have been burned twice just in the last decade. An accounting of that tax $$(along with the sewer funding) might prove enlightening.
 
dig a little deeper------
 
jmo


Posted By: Perplexed
Date Posted: Nov 09 2013 at 1:03pm
Spider -
 
Thank you for re-emphasizing my previous comments about haphazard residential demolition being carried out by Mr. Akins and staff in portions of Ward 2.  Many other MUSA participants need to drive down Baltimore, Crawford, Young, Garfield, Sutphin, etc.  I agree that this demolition derby will have a negative impact on those properties remaining.  Once again, there's a complete lack of project planning and analysis by the so-called Community Revitalization experts.  In June 2008 it was Paul Renwick, President of the Middletown Board of REALTORS who cautioned Queen Judith that any residential demolition plans in Ward 2 must be well thought out.  This was said during a heated exchange of the City Council Housing Subcommittee that was attended by six members of the Community Development Advisory Committee that was summarily scuttled in late 2008.  I never saw Miss Gilleland so red-faced.  After all, us commoners were never ever to disagree with her.  And, it was the Doogmeister who said that there wasn't any real need for the Advisory Committee as his actions were well monitored by HUD, Queen Judy, City Council and the Middletown Journal.  Queen Judy and Judge Doogie are cut from the same cloth.  Such a shame for Middletown.


Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Nov 09 2013 at 5:23pm
Well Mr. Poff
    I must say I’m shocked that you are a business owner and that you approve of City Hall raiding about 250 million dollars of the sewer separation funds for other items in the budget over the years.
    City Hall has robbed, raided, and raped every fund as they have tried to balance the budget over the years as the revenues diminished and the population declined each year…however the salaries of City Hall, Fire and Police continue to increase.
    City Halls last brilliant decision to increase the population, fill the empty housing stock, fill the schools and revenues for the city coffer was HUD’s Section 8 Program.…now City Hall wants to put these landlords out of business.
    City Hall has robbed Peter, Paul and Mary and within the next two years the City of
Middletown will be broke.
    The only thing left for the citizens of
Middletown is to stop FEEDING THE BEAST.



Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 09 2013 at 6:56pm
Originally posted by Vivian Moon Vivian Moon wrote:

Well Mr. Poff
    I must say I’m shocked that you are a business owner and that you approve of City Hall raiding about 250 million dollars of the sewer separation funds for other items in the budget over the years.
    City Hall has robbed, raided, and raped every fund as they have tried to balance the budget over the years as the revenues diminished and the population declined each year…however the salaries of City Hall, Fire and Police continue to increase.
    City Halls last brilliant decision to increase the population, fill the empty housing stock, fill the schools and revenues for the city coffer was HUD’s Section 8 Program.…now City Hall wants to put these landlords out of business.
    City Hall has robbed Peter, Paul and Mary and within the next two years the City of
Middletown will be broke.
    The only thing left for the citizens of
Middletown is to stop FEEDING THE BEAST.


No one likes it, They done what they thought was necessary....Was it right , legal or illegal?  Who as citizens has the time, resources or information to go back and right a wrong?  Sometimes it is best to let an entity go broke. The police and fire increases are governed by union contracts (that is another story), the salaries of city employees are governed by contracts also... 

The only thing left to stop feeding the beast. I agree, thus the reason I vote against school levies. One would hope they would try different avenues to secure funding......

Or you could try bringing the beast down, one horn at a time. Fighting a corrupt system with the same corrupt system is useless. If you can single out the infected horn, then you have your first target.  United they stand , divided they fall. Zoom in on your target, bring their private and public life out in the open ..Question every decision, vote , and every penny they receive. Follow them around like the paparazzi. Let them commit political suicide or your information, politically assassinates them. Change the game, they have become comfortable with the rules. 

Maybe we need a WatchDog group in this area........Past is past , look to the future with lessons from the past. 

Shocked about them raiding the SS, not really...........So far the Police, Fire and EMTs are responding and doing what they do. My water runs and the toilet flushes, I am able to file small claim suits at the court. I fish in the city park with my children. The roads are pretty clear after snow falls, and some are even getting repairs.....Been ongoing for 50 years. 

What else are you wanting from your city...?

Articulate a concern which can be addressed, can be righted and will benefit the citizens of Middletown....What is the first step in your eyes ?  
 

Just brainstorming......


Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Nov 09 2013 at 8:57pm
Step one get rid of Gilleland followed by Adkins then Kohler. Elect another mayor that doesn't have the name Mulligan probably send Landen packing too. That's a start IMO


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 09 2013 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by over the hill over the hill wrote:

Step one get rid of Gilleland

Why?


Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 12:54am

No use to resist any more, Middletown is broke and will soon be the sh*t hole that the city leader have strived for over the years. Only thing left to do is cut ones losses and get the hell out of dodge jmo. That is unless you belong to the ritzy downtown crowd which I'm sure will thrive in their self created (with money that they stole from other uses) lala land.



Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 6:34am
Originally posted by Justsayin Justsayin wrote:

Look, Judy's boyfriend (Sam) is a life long Middletown artist who's dream has been to make downtown an art mecca. Ann Mort is Sam's life long best friend.  The M-twins are friends of Sam and Mort. Money is spent downtown like a drunken sailor. Mort and the Mulligans rubber stamps whatever Sam and Queen Judy want.  How many times has the queen remodeled her office over the last several years and at what cost?  All the worthless buildings?  Art buildings? Why is Greg Pratt constantly hired by Judy instead of using the city attorney? At what cost? The list goes on and on. The whole setup is a sorry shame at the expense of everyone in this town. It is pathetic. Wake up Middletown! Get rid of these people!

The only way people in Middletown are going to wake up is when people get tired of being screwed, ignored, and they see their taxes going up. Just like the Health Care Law, people are now realizing the they have been lied too, and they are now starting to take action. 


Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 10:37am
What is the first step in your eyes ?  

If this was a company that I had purchased I would do the following within the first 7 days:

1. Change accounting system, fewer accounts with more restricted accounts.
2. Reduce wages for City Hall, Fire and Police to 60 percent of yearly revenues.

But City Council will never take action on either of the above.


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 11:50am
Originally posted by Vivian Moon Vivian Moon wrote:

What is the first step in your eyes ?  

If this was a company that I had purchased I would do the following within the first 7 days:

1. Change accounting system, fewer accounts with more restricted accounts.
2. Reduce wages for City Hall, Fire and Police to 60 percent of yearly revenues.

But City Council will never take action on either of the above.

Why , what are the benefits ? 

You want change, you have to be able to articulate why. 

In case you have not noticed this city budget thing and school funding issues are ongoing in almost every city across the nation..... 

So, you think wages of city employees should collectively be 60% of gross yearly revenues or net yearly revenues ....You still  have equipment maintenance ,  overhead and supplies. Do you consider employee health benefits/ retirement packages a wage or an extra unneeded cost ?

Just curious, have you actually run the numbers on the costs of raising a family and supplying them with the needed  resources to grow up and become a fully vested member of the community ? Education, proper healthcare, proper eating habits, a clean and  maintained home. Plus the parents having enough income left over to invest for their retirement, so they do not become a burden on society in the latter years.. 

Fire at will.............. 


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by ktf1179 ktf1179 wrote:

Originally posted by Justsayin Justsayin wrote:

Look, Judy's boyfriend (Sam) is a life long Middletown artist who's dream has been to make downtown an art mecca. Ann Mort is Sam's life long best friend.  The M-twins are friends of Sam and Mort. Money is spent downtown like a drunken sailor. Mort and the Mulligans rubber stamps whatever Sam and Queen Judy want.  How many times has the queen remodeled her office over the last several years and at what cost?  All the worthless buildings?  Art buildings? Why is Greg Pratt constantly hired by Judy instead of using the city attorney? At what cost? The list goes on and on. The whole setup is a sorry shame at the expense of everyone in this town. It is pathetic. Wake up Middletown! Get rid of these people!

The only way people in Middletown are going to wake up is when people get tired of being screwed, ignored, and they see their taxes going up. Just like the Health Care Law, people are now realizing the they have been lied too, and they are now starting to take action. 


When you need extra money at home......You cut corners or increase household income.........If right now  the city had all top level management work for free, cut all staffing 20% across the board............Guess what, at current and projected future revenue increases..........They will be in the same boat, in 3 years.

So which is it, cut costs or increase revenue.......?


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 12:26pm
pretty tough to do either at this time
a real problem
your prior post goes WAY beyond city issues, bringing in separate personal situations
they really don't mix, though both must be considered
 
what are your solutions hdm?
It can't continue as it is trending--and there is no additionl revenue to tap in to
tax increases are not feasible--public has no extra $$, and local govt is not a good shepard of public funds
like the schools--no amount is enough
govt is still the problem more than the solution
 
look no further than the former downtown...
the roi from decades of municipal investment is negligible
the only moves coforward have come recently from private investment/businesses
 
you talk in circles, downplaying legit local(also national/global) concerns, and rationalizing govt waste
how do you want to control the beast or make it work better for the totality?


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by spiderjohn spiderjohn wrote:

pretty tough to do either at this time
a real problem
your prior post goes WAY beyond city issues, bringing in separate personal situations
they really don't mix, though both must be considered
 
what are your solutions hdm?
It can't continue as it is trending--and there is no additionl revenue to tap in to
tax increases are not feasible--public has no extra $$, and local govt is not a good shepard of public funds
like the schools--no amount is enough
govt is still the problem more than the solution
 
look no further than the former downtown...
the roi from decades of municipal investment is negligible
the only moves coforward have come recently from private investment/businesses
 
you talk in circles, downplaying legit local(also national/global) concerns, and rationalizing govt waste
how do you want to control the beast or make it work better for the totality?

You are correct, this is not a single point issue.......You must understand the problem to fix it. This did not happen overnight.

We are all looking for solutions, I research and engage on forums to collectively brainstorm... I constantly see people put blame on local governments for mis handling ......Sure there is waste, everywhere is waste, I can find waste in your budget....But with proper control, that waste can be overcome provided the resources are available..

In business we rely on the public to spend money....Governments rely on the public to make money and spend money, when either one takes a hit ,the government is scrambling for revenues. It is a vicious circle, Government pumps $80 million into butler county via food stamps ...Who benefits?  To us a Nickle increase means little, take that nickle away from an entity that rely on that nickle a billion times .....You will have Chaos.

Jobs, is the overall answer.......Period.  Right now the cities are being shutdown by those who vote , because they are feeling the pinch and seeing no changes. Cities are throwing their hands in the air and moving money around to survive. After a few years and no increase in revenues, with no excess to store back.......The scramble has began, you will not need to worry about cuts to city services they will get done and  they will hope revenues increase soon .....But like last time, No increase and cuts will happen again.. 

Mergers will on the horizon , either complete cities or services. Pretty soon we will start seeing more and more multi generation households and that will add to the tax revenues problems. 

More and more citizens are becoming self-reliant , going green and using less services/products which the government has based their revenues on....

Citizens cutting costs = Governments in the red..........
 


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 1:37pm
Give ya a little insight to my MindSet.............Afterall 80% of my ramblings are becoming reality

http://trentontalk.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12194" rel="nofollow - http://trentontalk.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12194


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 2:08pm
posted - 06/21/2009 :  13:18:03   http://trentontalk.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=87" rel="nofollow">Show Profile   Email Poster   http://trentontalk.com/post.asp?method=EditTopic&REPLY_ID=6856&TOPIC_ID=6856&FORUM_ID=3" rel="nofollow">Edit Topic    http://edit.yahoo.com/config/send_webmesg?.target=hdmechanicalshop&.src=pg" rel="nofollow">Send Poff a Yahoo! Message   http://trentontalk.com/privatesend.asp?method=Topic&mname=Poff" rel="nofollow">Send Poff a Private Message    http://trentontalk.com/post.asp?method=TopicQuote&TOPIC_ID=6856&FORUM_ID=3" rel="nofollow">Reply with Quote
The endless debt, credit and bubbles of the last 15 years are finally reaching critical mass. It is no longer a matter of whether we have an economic collapse. No it is a matter of the scope and the intensity. It is not coming, it is here........... 

When television stations started showing the satellite pictures of a major storm , only then did the naysayers start to prepare. The MSM controls the ppl too busy to research or dig out the truth. Since television is telling us fantasies about green shoots, economic recovery etc. etc. the naysayers, as evidenced by the rising consumer confidence numbers, are buying into the..................... bull. 

The first thing to understand that this debt soaked economy, this leaning tower of endless debt is finished. One of the things you have to remember is the capacity to issue debt, by government at all levels; the capacity to borrow debt, by consumers, corporations et al, is done, ended , destroyed. We are on a cash and carry basis now. Some have been for the last couple years now. For an economy that is based upon endless credit and debt, regardless of the capacity to service that debt, or pay it back in plainer terms, this is death to those who rely on consumers . They can issue all the bailouts they want and change all the credit card terms to help out the overtaxed and weary consumer, but what about the ones who defaulted, ended up having bad credit scores which in turn limits their ability to buy major purchases , rent a apartment , or even purchase insurance, alot of purchases the consumer does daily is based on your credit score, even opening a bank account, some banks will not even open an account for those with lingering judgements or defaulted accounts ......... Also with the current job market , more and more employers are referencing credit reports as a tool for hiring ..............If there is no help for them , where will they turn...............??? Think on that one , regardless of the reasons it has happened . It has happened to enough of them to cause this meltdown, who knows what the numbers are but they are enough to affect you............

Headlines tell us that credit card problems are on the rise, one in nine Americans are now on food stamps, record numbers are on unemployment insurance. Recent headlines tell us that government, at all levels, are being bled dry by declining tax revenues. Revenues that many states, counties and cities are trying to replace with a massive wave of tax increases, sin taxes, Middletown even recently received a grant to hire a commerical code enforcer for six months, When was the last you seen the Bulter county sheriff dept. actively patrolling for traffic stops.........??? How many have recieved code enforcement letters recently? The revenue base has to increase and they are using every tool available to suck it out of the taxpayer..............Not only are one in nine Americans on food stamps ...........One in ten are in jail or prison, which is the same as being on food stamps the taxpayer pays for them also.........

Some may ask how does code enforcement increase revenues..... They always give you time to repair and no fine as long as the repair is done........?? Well you spent money , either doing it yourself or hiring someone which in turn netted the government some tax money and helps keep the property value up which in turn allows for more property tax to be paid.............A dollar a year to most ppl does mean much, but a dollar per property bill through the county could mean $$$$ millions $$$$ .........If everyone is forced to buy a gallon of gas to mow their lawns then the local government gets their share of a tax per gallon........Once again a dime doesn't mean much to us, but to a entity that relys on that dime a billion times it means alot ........

Most people really don't know the power they hold............. 

July 1st, the beginning of fiscal year 2010, the local governments will start to implode at state, city and county level. California, it is said, leads the nation. The California treasurer says they will run out of money in 50 days, around July 30th or so. One month into the new fiscal year of 2010 California is going to crash and burn, when they end welfare and unemployment payments then Los Angeles will start to resemble a war zone......In a sense this is good news for us , we will have a true gauge of the coming wave , the MSM will not be able to hide it and when you see it live you won't be able to doubt it and then the choices you make are yours alone...................

I have been watching for a late Sept. or early Fall crisis,......I believe then the general naysayers will start to see the true state of our economy. 

Also we are starting to see the commerical real estate spiral down...............

When the gas starts rising steadily within 6 months we will see the true state of the country..........we are into a steady rise now for the last month............I believe my timeline is holding tight....

Just watch as the local governments start falling , cutting back and jails start closing.........The small cities, then the counties, PD and FD will start merging...........Insurance will cease to cover vacant buildings (commerical and residential)............arson will increase on repo or vacant buildings...

Watch your local governments , they are the indicators . 

They may be getting grants to help, but watch how they are reducing basic services and imposing sin taxes or fees like they never have before.........


I believe the commerical real estate will be the straw that breaks the system...

I believe the housing acts and urban development programs like fannie mae and others were designed to increase local tax bases, property is mostly worthless to those entities who rely on property taxes unless the land is improved upon..........More housing means more taxes regardless of whether in foreclosure or not, the property taxes still must be paid...

I believe we have been in turmoil for several years and the many governmental programs just forestalled the meltdown......In a sense we have been working under a government stimlus package for about 15 years.

Once the commerical buildings start getting out of hand like the residental market and many are bankrupt or in foreclosure............You will see the banking industry start fighting with the local governments over the property taxes ( I think they might even pass laws allowing property in foreclosure to offset property taxes and zoning violation fines) ..........Low income tax revnues coupled with no property tax base will force local governments into survival mode...Even some schools rely on property taxes.......
The out of control banking system and the out of control government will then go head to head...........and your local government will shutdown.....

Dig in and watch ,have plenty of popcorn and ammo...



Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 2:15pm
Should you be bored enough to read the rest of the above thread............Linking to TrentonTalk is easier then copy and pasting the whole thread....

http://trentontalk.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6856&whichpage=1" rel="nofollow - http://trentontalk.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6856&whichpage=1


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 10 2013 at 4:48pm
If SNAP is in-fluxing $80 million per year into Butler County via 3800 eligible persons....And there are 45 million persons in the program nationwide...Just exactly where is this money coming from?   7% in the USA are receiving those benefits, approx 2 million in Ohio. Not only are they receiving funds which could be used elsewhere, They are not contributing to the local tax base at the desired rate. If any thing keeping the salaries and jobs up on your city employees could possibly help stimulate and maintain the local economy...Cut the salaries or jobs of your public sector and watch another class start cutting corner and not spending money, ....See the vicious circle..

The worse that you can do is keep contributing to the circle by cutting jobs.......... Cutting costs and cutting jobs are two different things. 
 


Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Nov 11 2013 at 12:00am
Governments in black
Citzen living in cardboard boxes


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 14 2013 at 2:18pm
Typical response from KeyBoard Commandos..............Nothing. You gripe , whine, cry, whatever you want to call it and not one of ya can articulate a good reason with proof or documentation of why one person is better than another. There is no magic mayor, city manager or council member that will change the past mistakes. It takes a group effort to clean up a mess which has gotta out of hand, sure you gripe and want heads to roll........But yet you offer no viable solutions, because most do not understand the workings of how your tax base and local governments are used and funded. You have to understand "why" to truly fix a problem or the only thing you will accomplish is to react and fight the symptoms, wasting money.

Middletown has took some major hits to the tax revenue in the last few years. I bet most on here who are quick to judge , cannot even name the major players which are gone....Middletown also has too many "tax exempt" properties. They need to lean toward infrastructure which the people are using.... 
 

Criticizing is easy; solutions are hard.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 14 2013 at 3:29pm
[QUOTE=HdMechanical] Typical response from KeyBoard Commandos..............Nothing. You gripe , whine, cry, whatever you want to call it and not one of ya can articulate a good reason with proof or documentation of why one person is better than another. There is no magic mayor, city manager or council member that will change the past mistakes. It takes a group effort to clean up a mess which has gotta out of hand, sure you gripe and want heads to roll........But yet you offer no viable solutions, because most do not understand the workings of how your tax base and local governments are used and funded. You have to understand "why" to truly fix a problem or the only thing you will accomplish is to react and fight the symptoms, wasting money.

Middletown has took some major hits to the tax revenue in the last few years. I bet most on here who are quick to judge , cannot even name the major players which are gone....Middletown also has too many "tax exempt" properties. They need to lean toward infrastructure which the people are using.... 
 


Ok HD, I'll offer some comments here to your post......let's take it step by step....

"Nothing. You gripe , whine, cry, whatever you want to call it and not one of ya can articulate a good reason with proof or documentation of why one person is better than another"

FOR STARTERS, NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND YOUR COMMENT ON ONE PERSON BEING BETTER THAN ANOTHER.

"There is no magic mayor, city manager or council member that will change the past mistakes"

ACTUALLY, THE CURRENT "MAGIC" MAYOR, CITY MANAGER AND COUNCIL ARE NOT TRYING TO CHANGE THE PAST MISTAKES. RATHER, THEY ARE MERELY ADDING TO THE LIST OF PAST MISTAKES WITH THEIR OWN CONTRIBUTIONS IN GUIDING THIS CITY ON THE WRONG PATH TO CORRECT IT. IMO, THEY HAVE ACTUALLY ADDED TO THE POOR DECISIONS OF THE PAST 4 DECADES HERE. JUST PUTTING THEIR OWN BRAND ON A TOWN WITH A BAD REPUTATION, NO JOB GROWTH, LOW-INCOME THEME, QUESTIONABLE INTERNAL OPERATIONS WITHIN THE CITY GOVERNMENT, INCLUSIVE FOR A SMALL CONTINGENT WHILE BEING EXCLUSIVE FOR THE MAJORITY LIVING HERE, AND, IN, GENERAL, A SHELL OF THE TOWN IT ONCE WAS WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL IN THE 60'S.

"It takes a group effort to clean up a mess which has gotta out of hand"

YES, AGREE, IT DOES TAKE A GROUP EFFORT AND WE "GRIPERS" WOULD LOVE TO PARTICIPATE AND OFFER OUR SOLUTIONS TO THE FOLKS IN DECISION-MAKING POSITIONS, BUT WE ARE NOT LISTENED TO. WE ARE IGNORED WHEN WE TRY TO TALK TO THEM DURING CITIZENS COMMENTS IN COUNCIL MEETINGS. FURTHERMORE, AND AN IMPORTANT ISSUE......OTHER THAN JOSH LAUBACH, WHO ON COUNCIL HAS HAD A COMMUNITY MEETING WHERE THE PEOPLE GET TO INTERACT AND ASK QUESTIONS AND OFFER IDEAS WITH THEIR COUNCILPEOPLE? DID MORT, PICARD OR THE TWO MULLIGANS OFFER ANY OPPORTUNITIES FOR US TO MEET WITH THEM AND TALK? NOPE. NOT ONE MEETING SINCE OLD LARRY MULLIGAN SAT BEHIND THAT COUNCIL DESK. HE IS NOT INTERESTED IN HEARING FROM US. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY WE HOLD PEOPLE LIKE THAT WITH DISDAIN? EVEN A SNAKE BITES BACK IF YOU STEP ON IT ONCE TOO OFTEN. HE IGNORES US. WE REACT.

"But yet you offer no viable solutions, because most do not understand the workings of how your tax base and local governments are used and funded. You have to understand "why" to truly fix a problem or the only thing you will accomplish is to react and fight the symptoms, wasting money."

BUT WE DO KNOW HOW THIS GOVERNMENT WORKS AND HOW IT IS FUNDED. AS EVIDENCE, I OFFER PAST POSTS FROM VERY INFORMED PEOPLE WHO HAVE LIVED IN THIS CITY FOR DECADES.....OR ALL OF THEIR LIVES AND HAVE SEEN THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY. WE HAVE OFFERED SOLUTIONS.....ONES BASED ON FACTS, RESEARCH AND LOGIC.....TO NO AVAIL. THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAR US Hd. OH, AND WE ARE TOTALLY AWARE OF THE MONEY WASTED IN THIS CITY, NOT TO MENTION THE SHIFTING OF FUNDS FROM ONE SOURCE TO ANOTHER TO "SUDDENLY" FIND MONETARY RESOURCES TO ACCOMPLISH THEIR LITTLE PET PROJECTS WHILE CLAIMING TO BE CASH STRAPPED AS GILLELAND HAS DONE IN THE PAST.

"Middletown has took some major hits to the tax revenue in the last few years"

YOU DON'T HAVE TO TELL ANY OF US. SOME OF US WERE HERE IN THE 50'S AND 60'S WHEN THE PAPER MILLS AND ARMCO WAS GOING STRONG. WHEN ARMCO HAD 9000 EMPLOYEES AND HAD A HAND IN MOST EVERYTHING GOING ON IN THE CITY. SOME OF US REMEMBER A VERY VIBRANT DOWNTOWN SO FULL OF PEOPLE ON A SATURDAY YOU HAD TO WALK IN THE STREET BECAUSE THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH ROOM ON THE SIDEWALKS. I WAS ON HAND WHEN MUM WAS BEING BUILT HAVING A SUMMER JOB PLACING DESKS IN LOGAN JOHNSON HALL AND GARDNER-HARVEY LIBRARY. THE TOWN WAS ALIVE BACK THEN......SO MUCH MORE HEALTHY THAN NOW. LAST FEW YEARS???? TRY THE LAST 4 DECADES.

"I bet most on here who are quick to judge , cannot even name the major players which are gone."

OH, HOW ABOUT BILL DONHAM. HOW ABOUT RON OLSEN. HOW ABOUT BILL BECKER AND FRED "I HELPED PUT IN THE CITY CENTRE MALL" SENNETT AND HIS OTHER 70'S COUNCIL MEMBERS. HOW ABOUT THE CREW OF CITY COMMISSIONERS THAT SCREWED UP LAKE MIDDLETOWN AND BICENTENNIAL COMMONS AND COST THE CITY $350,000 IN FINES FROM THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS FOR ILLEGALLY REMOVING THE DAM AND RELEASING SILT OUT IN THE RIVER? ON THE GOOD SIDE, HOW ABOUT BILL KLOSTERMAN, THE CITY ENGINEER, WHO HAD ALL THE BOULEVARD SYSTEMS PUT IN TO MAKE GETTING AROUND TOWN MUCH EASIER? GOOD CITY MANAGER BACK THEN. GOOD DECISIONS BENEFITTING ALL CITIZENS, NOT A SELECT FEW BACK THEN TOO.

AND HERE'S ONE FOR THE FUTURE FOR YA....HOW ABOUT THE CURRENT CITY COUNCIL. MEMBERS LIKE LARRY MULLIGAN, THE OTHER MULLIGAN, DAN PICARD, ANN MORT, ANITA SCOTT-JONES AND, AT TIMES, JOSH LAUBACH, WHO KEPT APPROVING MILLIONS TO THROW INTO A DOWNTOWN THAT WILL PROBABLY NEVER REACH THE PINNACLE OF HEIGHT THEY EXPECT IT TO. THE GIVAWAYS OF TAXPAYER MONEY. THE PROPERTY PURCHASES WITH TAXPAYER MONEY. THE FAVORITISM, THE NEGLECT OF 90% OF THE CITY AT THE EXPENSE OF THE DOWNTOWN DREAM THEY ALL HAVE. WHY? THIS WILL JOIN THE FAILURE LIST IN YEARS TO COME

IT IS ALL ABOUT BEING MIS-FOCUSED AND NOT HAVING A CLUE WHAT THIS TOWN NEEDS NOR WHAT THE PEOPLE ARE ALL ABOUT. THE PEOPLE IN THE CITY BUILDING AND SITTING BEHIND THE COUNCIL DESK ARE JUST SIMPLY OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY AS TO THE CITY'S SITUATION. WE ARE CASH STRAPPED AND SO DESPERATE FOR REVENUE THAT THE CITY LEADERS INVITED SECTION 8/LOW INCOME TO TOWN TO GAIN HUD MONEY RATHER THAN TO DO IT THROUGH NEW JOBS AND CORPORATE TAXES. FOR ANY FAMILY (OR CITY) BUDGET, THAT MEANS YOU ELIMINATE THE EXTRAS AND FOCUS ON THE BASICS FOR NOW....UNTIL YOU CAN BUILD UP THE REVENUES......THEN YOU START ADDING ICING TO THE CAKE...SLOWLY, BUT YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE THE BASICS FIRST...IE-WATER, SEWER, DECENT ROADS, POLICE, FIRE. SAFETY FOR THE PEOPLE. PAY THE NECESSARY CITY BILLS AND PLACE WHATEVER REMAINS IN A FUND FOR CITY EMERGENCIES. AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN SENDING IT TO DREAMLAND PET PROJECTS EITHER!

MY OFFERING.



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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 15 2013 at 1:06pm
Interesting....One might say, hopefully we can continue this later...........I have become busy at work and one must get it, while it is there....Hopefully a solution will crop up before I return, but we all know different even though we have conflicting views..


Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Nov 15 2013 at 11:58pm
Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:

Typical response from KeyBoard Commandos..............Nothing. You gripe , whine, cry, whatever you want to call it and not one of ya can articulate a good reason with proof or documentation of why one person is better than another. There is no magic mayor, city manager or council member that will change the past mistakes. It takes a group effort to clean up a mess which has gotta out of hand, sure you gripe and want heads to roll........But yet you offer no viable solutions, because most do not understand the workings of how your tax base and local governments are used and funded. You have to understand "why" to truly fix a problem or the only thing you will accomplish is to react and fight the symptoms, wasting money.

Middletown has took some major hits to the tax revenue in the last few years. I bet most on here who are quick to judge , cannot even name the major players which are gone....Middletown also has too many "tax exempt" properties. They need to lean toward infrastructure which the people are using.... 
 

Criticizing is easy; solutions are hard.


Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Nov 16 2013 at 12:35am

Please don't try to insult people with comments like keyboard commados like you are all knowledgeable about every aspect  of the workings of the government.  I have worked for the government for over 20 yrs. The real truth is the government takes care of its own and doesn't care about the rest of us no matter what they say, a spade is a spade. If there is nothing to gain then you are out of luck and as far as being a solution good luck. I see this every day at work and that's the way it was  when I started and it will be like that way after I leave this world.



Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 16 2013 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by tomahawk35 tomahawk35 wrote:

Please don't try to insult people with comments like keyboard commados like you are all knowledgeable about every aspect  of the workings of the government.  I have worked for the government for over 20 yrs. The real truth is the government takes care of its own and doesn't care about the rest of us no matter what they say, a spade is a spade. If there is nothing to gain then you are out of luck and as far as being a solution good luck. I see this every day at work and that's the way it was  when I started and it will be like that way after I leave this world.


Interesting......But to be honest , I really never said much about knowing the workings of the government, I am bringing to light the funding of the government entities and how it affects people, public or private....We all know, they are about self-preservation regardless of outcome..

People really do not understand the reasoning behind some government decisions.............

We have the ability to go 100% solar power,  100% recycled waste water at each residence, each vehicle has the ability to run on NG or propane........Any of those options blur the line of traditional funding for governments,  Less consumer spending  equals less taxbase funding....

Imagine never having another water bill or electric bill, imagine the uproar of your local government when your slash those costs.........No more revenue from those services.

Some communities that have given hospitals tax exempt property status to build in their locale are now considering adding a tax per bed . Same for hope houses and other non-profits...

Middletown must create jobs, regardless of whether min wage or above..........This assures that the support services do not leave, IE: doctors, lawyers, realtors, eateries, dealerships, stores, etc.....

Some companies,  I included have gambled on Middletown's future to prosper we have used the economy turndown to better our infrastructure and position ourselves for the upswing.....Just hope the wait isn't much longerCry


Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 17 2013 at 10:41am
Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:

The only thing left to stop feeding the beast. I agree, thus the reason I vote against school levies. One would hope they would try different avenues to secure funding......

Mr. Poff;

Concerning your above quote and just out of curiosity...

Who is going to feed the education beast if the citizens whose children use the education system Do Not?

Do you have a source that will provide $40M in School Building funds if the citizens agree to pay the $55M balance on $95M?  Personally I know of No One that will cough up $40M for the city of Middletown to build it's schools.  No person or Organization.

It makes little sense to me to throw away $40M of State Funds thus making the Middletown Citizens responsible for the total $95M if and when they come to their senses and decide they need new schools.

PacmanCool






Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 17 2013 at 11:49am
Hd Mechanical:

"Middletown must create jobs, regardless of whether min wage or above"

Disagree with "regardless of whether min wage or above" statement....

Middletown has a disproportionate number of min wage jobs now. Too many fast food/ low wage industrial park/ cashier/ waitress/ mini-mart jobs and not enough medical/ high tech industrial/ "professional" level paying jobs offered here. That's why many, including myself, leave town each day and get on I-75 to go out of town to work. Nothing to chose from here that will provide a decent standard of living.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 17 2013 at 12:06pm
"It makes little sense to me to throw away $40M of State Funds thus making the Middletown Citizens responsible for the total $95M if and when they come to their senses and decide they need new schools.

Pacman"

Sorry Pac. I'm on the other side of the fence when talking about school support. Not logical to throw away more taxpayer money through a bond levy to build more new schools for this district when we haven't seen much improvement from the new elementary, 45 million dollar bond levy. The school people must show that the investment made years ago was worth it before we give them more of our money. To date, hasn't happened IMO.

The logic that we must approve more money because now is our only chance to "put in 40 million to get 55 million from the state" seems to be the reason of choice for people like Ms. Andrew, the levy supporters and yourself. To me, it sounds like that is the only reason to approve the levy, rather than have this middle school be a benefit to the district AS TO IMPROVING OPERATIONS, IMPROVING THE OVERALL PERFORMANCE OR BENEFITING THE COMMUNITY. The levy supporters can't use that reasoning because it hasn't happened as yet and they know it. It appears the overwhelming reason to support the levy, suggested by the pro-levy people, is that we must approve this bond levy just because the state is offering to pay for more than half, and if we don't use it we lose it. Sounds desperate to me. IMO, THAT is a misdirected reason and doesn't attack the real reasons for the stagnated performance. New schools DO NOT NECESSARILY MEAN A BETTER DISTRICT NOR RESULTS AND HAS BEEN PROVEN WITH THE NEW ELEMENTARY SCHOOL REPORT CARD. They have not made enough progress to have made the investment seem worth it. JMO

-------------
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 17 2013 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by Pacman Pacman wrote:

Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:

The only thing left to stop feeding the beast. I agree, thus the reason I vote against school levies. One would hope they would try different avenues to secure funding......

Mr. Poff;

Concerning your above quote and just out of curiosity...

Who is going to feed the education beast if the citizens whose children use the education system Do Not?

Do you have a source that will provide $40M in School Building funds if the citizens agree to pay the $55M balance on $95M?  Personally I know of No One that will cough up $40M for the city of Middletown to build it's schools.  No person or Organization.

It makes little sense to me to throw away $40M of State Funds thus making the Middletown Citizens responsible for the total $95M if and when they come to their senses and decide they need new schools.

PacmanCool





Personally , I no longer debate school levies I just vote "No"......

The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us , and continue to hold their hands out while doing nothing to cut costs.

Today's technology is there to dramatically cut public school costs.....Even the schools today are using "YouTube Videos"  to teach math.

I have home schooled 5 children, I have had my children in the public school....I have 3 computers on the way here Thursday from ECOT ....  
 
Our plan established a strong foundation in reading and math during early childhood home school and let them finish up in the public school system if they wanted to.  

There are Pros and Cons to both choices...

Al I can say .........If you have children, whichever choice you make do not allow them to shortcut reading and math skills.. 4 hrs a week strengthening those skills is a small investment in your child's future and if you leave their education to someone else you have no one else to blame but YOU if they fail.

But back on topic............

Who is going to feed the education beast if the citizens whose children use the education system Do Not?

Your ^^^^^^^^ quote above is the the problem in a nutshell, do you realize the bulk of the children who use the education system is not supported by the parents of those children. Only property owners supply the funding for schools. Businesses and personal thru property tax and some screwed up kilowatt tax on electric companies. 

I favor additional taxes , provided everyone pays the same...I would rather property taxes be abolished and taxes placed on consumables across the board.....Electric use, water use , Internet, phone, garbage ETC.....Oh did you know there is a $1 per tire tax on tire sold in Ohio......

The school funding or really any government funding must be applied across the board to be effective long term.....Payroll taxes are fine if everyone is working, the loss of local tax thru 1099 workers and cash/undertable workers is tremendous.   property tax if everyone owned property. 


Sales and use tax is the closest I believe we will ever come to having consistent funding for any public entity. Even if there is no jobs, people still use certain services. Even if they move in with a relative due to hardship the use of those services increase in the household , not much but better than nothing as now. Plus we catch those off the grid workers for cash in that net...

      







Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 17 2013 at 11:30pm
The cost to educate young people across the state is significant and those costs continue to rise. More Ohio tax dollars are spent for primary and secondary education than for any other single governmental function. The complexities of school finance practically require that taxpayers have the equivalent of a finance degree in order to understand how the money is spent. While it is increasingly difficult to understand the complexities of how schools within the state of Ohio are funded, it is also increasingly critical that taxpayers understand these issues in order to be informed voters. 

How are Schools Funded in Ohio? 

  • Local Support
    The property tax is the predominant method communities use to raise additional revenues in Ohio. The property tax comes in two forms:
    • Real property tax- This is a tax levied on land and buildings located within the school district. Private individuals, businesses and public utilities that own land and buildings pay this tax.
    • Tangible personal property - This is a tax levied on furniture, fixtures, machinery, equipment and inventory owned by business. Key factors used in calculating property tax bills are the assessed valuation of property and the millage rate. The county auditor of each county in the state had the responsibility of appraising all taxable real property once every six years to determine the values. Every third year after each reappraisal another form of reappraisal, called an update, is conducted. Property tax bills are calculated on the assessed value of property, which equals 35 percent of the Fiscal Officer's appraised value. For instance, a home with an appraised value of $100,000 will be taxed on a value of $35,000.
  • Mills
    Local Property tax rates are always computed in mills. One mill costs the property owner $1.00 for every $1,000 of assessed valuation each year. In our example, the $100,000 will produce $35 in tax revenue for each mill. 

    In Ohio, millage is referred to as "inside" millage and "outside" millage. Inside millage is the millage provided by the Constitution of the State of Ohio and is levied without the vote of the people as established very early in the State's history. The inside millage rate is limited to ten mills in each political subdivision. Public schools, cities, counties and other local governments are allocated a portion of the ten inside mills. The Rocky River School District's portion is 4.57 mills. Outside millage is the millage voted in by the public. 

    There are two major forms of tax credits property owners receive.
    • The first is a 12.5 percent millage rollback. With this credit, a homeowner receives a credit of 12.5% on the total gross property tax amount due. In our example, the property owner would receive a credit of $4.38 ($35 x .125).
    • The net tax bill would be $30.62. The State of Ohio reimburses the amount of this credit back to all the taxing authorities, so they end up collecting the full amount of the levy.
  • HB 920 - The Controlling Factor
    Another key tax credit is known as House Bill 920, which went into effect in 1976. This credit effectively freezes all voted real property millage at the dollar amount collected the first year the millage went into effect. As property values rise through reappraisals, the outside millage rate is commonly referred to as "effective" millage. The inside mills are not affected by the House Bill 920 credit, so a small amount of additional revenue is gained as property values increase.
  • State Support
    STate Foundation - The State of Ohio provides funding to school districts by way of a foundation formula. The foundation formula method of funding Basic Aid takes into account the ability of school districts to raise taxes locally as well as a state determined minimum amount necessary per student to provide an adequate education. The formula is designed to provide a higher level of assistance to school districts with low property wealth relative to districts with higher property wealth.

Why Do Schools Keep Asking for More Money? 

The short answer to this question is that while most of the revenues available to schools are fixed and inflexible, the cost of education continually rises. Many of the rising costs are out of the control of local school boards. 

As a consumer of goods, school districts encounter inflation in most goods and services purchased. In addition to inflation, legal requirements, unfounded mandates and expanded services expected by communities add to increased operating costs of school districts. There are numerous legislated enactments, which have had significant cost implications to public schools in Ohio. For example, Ohio law requires bus transportation for all students in grades K-8 who reside more than two miles from school and public schools must provide the same level of transportation service to nonpublic students as they provide to their own students. Special education services must be provided for all children in the district who qualify under state and federal guidelines, regardless of cost. School Districts must employ at least 1 classroom teacher for every 24 pupils grades K-4. In addition, Ohio law prohibits reduction in staff because of economic hardship. As service organizations, most dollars in school district budgets are used for personnel, typically about 80%. Ohio collective bargaining laws require school boards to negotiate. Salary and benefit levels with employee groups. Balancing fairness to employees, keeping pace with the market in order to attract good people, and accomplishing this with limited resources is a challenge for all school boards. 

How Do Schools Raise Additional Funds? 

The property tax is the main funding mechanism available to school districts to increase revenue. State law makes a distinction between operating funds and capital improvement funds. Proceeds from an operating levy can be used for any legal expenditure by a board of education. Most of the funds derived from an operating of running a school district, such as salaries and benefits for personnel, textbooks, classroom supplies, utilities and repairs. Following are the types of operating levies:

  • Regular operating levy for current expenses - A millage rate is submitted to the voters for approval, not a dollar amount. The millage rate will be adjusted as property values change pursuant to HB 920. This levy can be voted in for one to five years or for a continuing period of time.
  • Emergency Levy - This type of levy is submitted to the voters as a dollar amount. For example, "The emergency levy will raise $1,000,000 per year." An emergency levy can only be voted in for a period of time from one to five years, and expires after the time has elapsed unless renewed by a vote of the public.
  • Incremental Levy - This can be either in terms of millage incremental or dollar incremental. In these instances, millage rates or dollar levies are phased in over a numbers of years up to five. Millage incremental levies can be for a continuing period of time or one to ten years in duration. Dollar incremental levies can have a duration of one to ten years.
  • Capital involvements can be funded in two forms - Permanents improvement levies and bond issues. All funds received by school districts from permanent improvement levies and bond issues must, by law, be used for the purposes intended and cannot be used for operating expenses of the districts.
  • Replacement Levy - A replacement levy can replace all or a portion of an expiring levy. It is used when the effective rate had been lowered and can restore the rate of the tax to its original rate, thus generating increased dollars. A replacement levy can raise more revenue than the levy it replaces because the original levy may have been through one or more reassessment. With each reassessment, if the value of real property in the school district had increased due to inflation, the H.B. 920 tax credit factor will have been applied to the voted levy, reducing the effective mills.
  • Permanent Improvement Levy - Permanent improvement levies for specific projects can last from one to five years. Permanent improvement levies for general on-going permanent improvements can be levied for a continuing period of time.
  • Bond Issue - A bond issue is a tax, the proceeds of which can only be used to pay bonds and noted issued by school districts for the purposes of permanent improvements. Bond issues are normally used for building new or additions to buildings. However, proceeds of a bond issue cannot be used for operational costs of the new facility (ies). This is often a source of misunderstanding. People remembering a bond issue was passed for a new building can't understand why "the district built a new building without having the money to operate it." Many times an operating levy must also be passed to help pay for the operational costs when the new building was necessitated by increased enrollment.

Ohio Lottery 

Many people believe that proceeds from the Ohio Lottery provide schools in the state with substantial revenue each year. In fact, lottery proceeds make up only a small portion of the state's total education dollars. For a typical district in Ohio, the legislature asserts that the lottery pays between 6% and 8% of their expenses. However, the lottery had actually had a negative impact on school funding in the state. In 1975, Ohio put almost 44.5% of every state budget dollar into education. In 1995, that amount had fallen to less than 32%. While lottery dollars were intended to supplement educational funding, they actually supplanted state funds, which were then diverted to other uses. Although lottery proceeds are an additional source of revenue for public schools, they constitute, only a small portion of the local school budget and in no way replace the need to ongoing local support. 

What Does All This Mean to County Taxpayers? 

While state legislators continue to wrestle with issues of equity and fairness in funding public education in Ohio, public schools continue to depend on the support of local taxpayers. There is no quick fix or easy solution coming from the state or federal level. Despite this, children continue to come through doors of our schools each day asking and deserving to be educated. We must press our elected representatives to find a more efficient way to fund education. Until the state creates a new system on funding schools, local taxpayers in Ohio will continue to shoulder the responsibility of providing quality education for our children.



Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 17 2013 at 11:38pm
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Hd Mechanical:

"Middletown must create jobs, regardless of whether min wage or above"

Disagree with "regardless of whether min wage or above" statement....

Middletown has a disproportionate number of min wage jobs now. Too many fast food/ low wage industrial park/ cashier/ waitress/ mini-mart jobs and not enough medical/ high tech industrial/ "professional" level paying jobs offered here. That's why many, including myself, leave town each day and get on I-75 to go out of town to work. Nothing to chose from here that will provide a decent standard of living.

I agree, I used to drive 56 miles one way.......... 

But to fund local services , any city payroll tax min or high wage is better then nothing....Just min wage jobs are easier to create. Remember that "nickle" , it feeds the beast, LOL


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 2:39am
There is something to consider that is akin to an "unfunded mandate", and that is the $40 million dollars the state is dangling for the completion of our building program.  Along with this $40 million comes strict requirements for the new middle school and the remodeled high school that jacks the total cost up to an astronomical (at least in the view of some) $95 million dollars!  $55 million of this must come from the local taxpayers in the form of a new tax levy.
 
Given that the school district already owns all of the property involved, does anyone think that $95 million dollars is out of line to build a new middle school and to remodel the existing high school???


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 7:35am
"The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us"

THEN WHY ARE THE SCHOOLS STILL ALLOWED TO PLACE LEVIES ON THE BALLOT?

SOMETHING DOESN'T COMPUTE HERE.



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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 7:45am
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

"The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us"

THEN WHY ARE THE SCHOOLS STILL ALLOWED TO PLACE LEVIES ON THE BALLOT?

SOMETHING DOESN'T COMPUTE HERE.


It stands until another solution is found...............Keep giving them money and there is no reason for them to change.

Requires a complete overhaul of the taxing system, something no politician will even attempt ...Would be political suicide. 


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 7:54am
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/03/25/15-years--no-school-funding-fix.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/03/25/15-years--no-school-funding-fix.html

Kasich says to expect his school-funding plan next year. While it’s designed to move more dollars into the classroom, he predicts it won’t make everyone happy.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 7:56am
Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:



Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

"The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us"

THEN WHY ARE THE SCHOOLS STILL ALLOWED TO PLACE LEVIES ON THE BALLOT?

SOMETHING DOESN'T COMPUTE HERE.



It stands until another solution is found...............Keep giving them money and there is no reason for them to change.

Requires a complete overhaul of the taxing system, something no politician will even attempt ...Would be political suicide. 



SO THE CRITERIA FOR CONTINUING TO IGNORE THE DECREE OF UNCONSTITUTIONALITY AND THE BREAKING OF THE LAW IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER SOLUTION FOR NOW? BIZARRE REASONING AND LOGIC. ONCE IT WAS DETERMINED THAT THE FUNDING WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOLISHED. ISN'T THIS CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR, AND AS SUCH, THOSE RESPONSIBLE SHOULD BE CHARGED? EXACTLY HOW'S THAT WORK IN THIS CASE? ONCE IT WAS DECIDED, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENFORCED. NOT A GOOD ENOUGH REASON FOR THE POLITICAL SUICIDE RISK.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 7:59am
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:



Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

"The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us"

THEN WHY ARE THE SCHOOLS STILL ALLOWED TO PLACE LEVIES ON THE BALLOT?

SOMETHING DOESN'T COMPUTE HERE.



It stands until another solution is found...............Keep giving them money and there is no reason for them to change.

Requires a complete overhaul of the taxing system, something no politician will even attempt ...Would be political suicide. 



SO THE CRITERIA FOR CONTINUING TO IGNORE THE DECREE OF UNCONSTITUTIONALITY AND THE BREAKING OF THE LAW IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER SOLUTION FOR NOW? BIZARRE REASONING AND LOGIC. ONCE IT WAS DETERMINED THAT THE FUNDING WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOLISHED. ISN'T THIS CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR, AND AS SUCH, THOSE RESPONSIBLE SHOULD BE CHARGED? EXACTLY HOW'S THAT WORK IN THIS CASE? ONCE IT WAS DECIDED, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENFORCED. NOT A GOOD ENOUGH REASON FOR THE POLITICAL SUICIDE RISK.

Your government at work.................


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 10:23am
Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:


Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:



Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

"The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us"

THEN WHY ARE THE SCHOOLS STILL ALLOWED TO PLACE LEVIES ON THE BALLOT?

SOMETHING DOESN'T COMPUTE HERE.



It stands until another solution is found...............Keep giving them money and there is no reason for them to change.

Requires a complete overhaul of the taxing system, something no politician will even attempt ...Would be political suicide. 



SO THE CRITERIA FOR CONTINUING TO IGNORE THE DECREE OF UNCONSTITUTIONALITY AND THE BREAKING OF THE LAW IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER SOLUTION FOR NOW? BIZARRE REASONING AND LOGIC. ONCE IT WAS DETERMINED THAT THE FUNDING WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOLISHED. ISN'T THIS CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR, AND AS SUCH, THOSE RESPONSIBLE SHOULD BE CHARGED? EXACTLY HOW'S THAT WORK IN THIS CASE? ONCE IT WAS DECIDED, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENFORCED. NOT A GOOD ENOUGH REASON FOR THE POLITICAL SUICIDE RISK.


Your government at work.................


PUBLIC HANGINGS ARE IN ORDER AT THE FED, STATE AND LOCAL LEVELS. I'LL BUY THE ROPE AT THE LOCAL TRACTOR SUPPLY IF SOMEONE HAS A FEW TREES ON THEIR PROPERTY WITH SOME STURDY BRANCHES. NEED A DATE, SEND OUT THE INVITATIONS, CALL THE VENDORS AND ORDER THE SOUNDTRACK OF HANG 'EM HIGH TO PLAY DURING THE CEREMONY ALSO.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 10:49am
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:


Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:



Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

"The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us"

THEN WHY ARE THE SCHOOLS STILL ALLOWED TO PLACE LEVIES ON THE BALLOT?

SOMETHING DOESN'T COMPUTE HERE.



It stands until another solution is found...............Keep giving them money and there is no reason for them to change.

Requires a complete overhaul of the taxing system, something no politician will even attempt ...Would be political suicide. 



SO THE CRITERIA FOR CONTINUING TO IGNORE THE DECREE OF UNCONSTITUTIONALITY AND THE BREAKING OF THE LAW IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER SOLUTION FOR NOW? BIZARRE REASONING AND LOGIC. ONCE IT WAS DETERMINED THAT THE FUNDING WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOLISHED. ISN'T THIS CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR, AND AS SUCH, THOSE RESPONSIBLE SHOULD BE CHARGED? EXACTLY HOW'S THAT WORK IN THIS CASE? ONCE IT WAS DECIDED, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENFORCED. NOT A GOOD ENOUGH REASON FOR THE POLITICAL SUICIDE RISK.


Your government at work.................


PUBLIC HANGINGS ARE IN ORDER AT THE FED, STATE AND LOCAL LEVELS. I'LL BUY THE ROPE AT THE LOCAL TRACTOR SUPPLY IF SOMEONE HAS A FEW TREES ON THEIR PROPERTY WITH SOME STURDY BRANCHES. NEED A DATE, SEND OUT THE INVITATIONS, CALL THE VENDORS AND ORDER THE SOUNDTRACK OF HANG 'EM HIGH TO PLAY DURING THE CEREMONY ALSO.

You would have to go to a National forest to find enough trees..........

Let just hope some scared socialist wannabe doesn't misinterpret your post and you end up spread eagle, cavity searched and home ransacked.  I will not have anyone to chat with...Cry


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 11:27am
Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:


Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:


Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:



Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

"The funding has already been ruled unconstitutional and they snub their noses at us"

THEN WHY ARE THE SCHOOLS STILL ALLOWED TO PLACE LEVIES ON THE BALLOT?

SOMETHING DOESN'T COMPUTE HERE.



It stands until another solution is found...............Keep giving them money and there is no reason for them to change.

Requires a complete overhaul of the taxing system, something no politician will even attempt ...Would be political suicide. 



.

SO THE CRITERIA FOR CONTINUING TO IGNORE THE DECREE OF UNCONSTITUTIONALITY AND THE BREAKING OF THE LAW IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER SOLUTION FOR NOW? BIZARRE REASONING AND LOGIC. ONCE IT WAS DETERMINED THAT THE FUNDING WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ABOLISHED. ISN'T THIS CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR, AND AS SUCH, THOSE RESPONSIBLE SHOULD BE CHARGED? EXACTLY HOW'S THAT WORK IN THIS CASE? ONCE IT WAS DECIDED, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ENFORCED. NOT A GOOD ENOUGH REASON FOR THE POLITICAL SUICIDE RISK.


Your government at work.................


PUBLIC HANGINGS ARE IN ORDER AT THE FED, STATE AND LOCAL LEVELS. I'LL BUY THE ROPE AT THE LOCAL TRACTOR SUPPLY IF SOMEONE HAS A FEW TREES ON THEIR PROPERTY WITH SOME STURDY BRANCHES. NEED A DATE, SEND OUT THE INVITATIONS, CALL THE VENDORS AND ORDER THE SOUNDTRACK OF HANG 'EM HIGH TO PLAY DURING THE CEREMONY ALSO.


You would have to go to a National forest to find enough trees..........

Let just hope some scared socialist wannabe doesn't misinterpret your post and you end up spread eagle, cavity searched and home ransacked.  I will not have anyone to chat with...Cry


I wouldn't worry about that happening Hd. I've got guns. Not afraid to use 'em. Got a chip on my shoulder based on what life has dealt me the last 4 + years and really would enjoy someone attempting to knock the chip off. So let 'em try the "spread eagle", "cavity search", "home ransacked" thing. I wish them luck......



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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 11:41am
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

 

I wouldn't worry about that happening Hd. I've got guns. Not afraid to use 'em. Got a chip on my shoulder based on what life has dealt me the last 4 + years and really would enjoy someone attempting to knock the chip off. So let 'em try the "spread eagle", "cavity search", "home ransacked" thing. I wish them luck......


They are scared of guns , so they sneak in while you are snoring and let your guns watch them rape you.....Shocked


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 18 2013 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by HdMechanical HdMechanical wrote:


Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

 

I wouldn't worry about that happening Hd. I've got guns. Not afraid to use 'em. Got a chip on my shoulder based on what life has dealt me the last 4 + years and really would enjoy someone attempting to knock the chip off. So let 'em try the "spread eagle", "cavity search", "home ransacked" thing. I wish them luck......



They are scared of guns , so they sneak in while you are snoring and let your guns watch them rape you.....Shocked


It'll be alright. I've learned to sleep with one eye open waiting for any distress from my wife at night. Light sleeper and wake up with any sound. I'll hear 'em. Been years since I actually had a full night's sleep.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: HdMechanical
Date Posted: Apr 30 2017 at 7:31pm
I am back Life can get rough.....


Posted By: John Beagle
Date Posted: May 02 2017 at 1:55pm
Welcome back!Smile

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http://www.johnbeagle.com/ - John Beagle
Middletown USA
News of, for and by the people of Middletown, Ohio.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Oct 26 2017 at 9:15pm
Back the topic of sewers.......

FOUR GUYS AND A HOLE....

Went to the Chase Bank at Briele and Roosevelt the other day. Next door to the exit, seems there was a big event happening regarding the city sewer department.

Yeah. Seems there was three trucks parked up on the curb on Roosevelt all labeled as "Sewer Department". Two were larger service trucks with the yellow bubble lights a workin'. One looked to be a regular supervisor's pick-up truck with the yellow bubble light apparently warning all motorists that there was work being done and to watch out for the other two bubble light trucks up ahead.

Upon further observation, there were four city employees standing around what looked to be a sewer cover removed and a hole with some sort of interest to these four city folks. They were just staring with great focus and probably were figuring out what to do with the hole. No backhoe in sight as is customary practice. None of the city people had a shovel in their hands so not your typical hole diggin' situation. Saw one employee attempt to jump in the hole as he saw something of interest.

Don't know the outcome as I didn't have enough time to watch the whole event but I can imagine it got pretty darn interesting as time went by given the beehive of activity at that point.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: whistlersmom
Date Posted: Mar 07 2018 at 10:00pm

Read the Wed. 3/7/18 afternoon update of Journal News:

Middletown City Council on Tuesday approved the first project as part of the $269 million Long Term Control Plan established by the consent decree with the U. S. Environmental Protection Agency to correct the issue, according to a staff report prepared by Scott Tadych, city public works and utilities director.

Council approved a $338,400 professional services contract with Williams Creek Consulting to prepare the construction plans and specifications for the Bulls Run to Sunset Park Green Infrastructure Project.

Comment: This so called Long Term Control Plan is a fool hardy delaying tactic which will continue (after 40 years) to avoid separating the sewers. Likely the EPA has no idea that Middletown (directed by Doug Adkins) has decided to waste more money by virtually applying a bandaid over a severed artery, just to delay complying with the order to separate the sewers. Why?

Tadych said the project is the first identified in the LTCP that will consist of constructing a storm sewer to intercept a portion of the flow from the Bulls Run stream where it enters the combined sewer system near the intersection of Sheldon Road and Santa Fe Drive.


He said the intercepted flow from the drainage area will be redirected to an approximately one-acre regional green infrastructure retention basin located at Sunset Park, reducing storm water loading to the combined sewer system.


Comment: The intercepting storm sewer will combine with the sewer system containing raw sewage to be deposited in the retention basin. Instead of a swimming pool we shall have a cesspool in Sunset Park!


The project is required to be completed by mid-2019 under the terms of the federal consent decree.

In his report, Tadych said that aesthetic landscaping and hardscaping features will be incorporated into the green infrastructure basin to not detract from the overall park character

The existing play equipment may be relocated or replaced to accommodate the basin, the report said. In addition, the storm sewer installation on Sheldon Road will likely necessitate overall road improvements between Kenwood Drive and Santa Fe Drive, including waterline replacement, curb repairs and full width street paving.

Councilwoman Ami Vittori noted there were a number of new families in that area that asked if there were any plans to install new play equipment at Sunset Park or to have a community discussion with the neighborhood. City Manager Doug Adkins said he would look into it.

Has anyone considered the odor that may emanate from the retention basin, because the overflow will contain raw sewage from the combined sewers? No amount of “green space” landscaping is going to cover the stench and growth of bacteria in this proposed cesspool which may create a greater health hazard than our drug epidemic. I personally would not want my children exposed to that environment.



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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing" Edmond Burke


Posted By: buddhalite
Date Posted: Mar 08 2018 at 1:56pm
Quoted from whistlersmom:
"Comment: The intercepting storm sewer will combine with the sewer system containing raw sewage to be deposited in the retention basin. Instead of a swimming pool we shall have a cesspool in Sunset Park"

I gotta say - I was at the meeting and in Adkins' own words, that was not the impression that I got.  The impression I got was that the storm sewer flow was being intercepted and redirected to the pond in the park to prevent it ever getting to the combined sewer.  I.e. send it to a retention pond rather than the sewer.


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"Success usually comes to those who are too busy to be looking for it."—Henry David Thoreau


Posted By: whistlersmom
Date Posted: Mar 08 2018 at 3:59pm

 Glad you noticed this! And I believe you are correct. Sewage might not be included in the storm sewer water flowing into the retention basin.

But, did Adkins guarantee that the size/depth of the basin was adequate to retain especially heavy runoff without overflowing? What would happen in that event? The combined sewers (including sewage) in that neighborhood have been notorious for backing up into basements when heavy rains occurred.

Did he disclose what would eventually happen to any retained basin contents? Will it be released into the combined sewer? How would this be accomplished? This storm sewer is only a short segment, not directly connected by any other path to the river. Therefore, the only drainage path is the combined sewer, so the goal of separating the storm water from sewage is totally lost! It’s only a bandaid fix at an extra cost.

If the water is retained in the basin for any length of time during the spring and summer, the stagnant water will become a breeding ground for mosquitoes, may grow a scum of algae, and may attract other undesirables right smack in the middle of a densely populated neighborhood, in what used to be their neighborhood park. Can we trust the city to maintain this monstrosity? This basin has the potential to become a health hazard and a hazardous place for curious children who might try to penetrate its barrier.

Will this basin eventually be eliminated when (if) the “real” sewer separation occurs? If so, what a waste of our money!! Undoing it would, again, cost more money! Of what use would it be if left in place??



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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing" Edmond Burke


Posted By: buddhalite
Date Posted: Mar 08 2018 at 6:32pm
After my last post, I sent a note to Mr. Adkins to confirm the facts about exactly what water will flow into this basin.  They almost always get back within a half-a-day so I'll confirm what I know tomorrow when they reply.

Now - on to the rest of your comments:

I can't imagine anyone purposely building a retention pond that wouldn't hold enough - and with the EPA looking over their shoulders (I do believe they approved this move) I'm not so worried about its capacity.  As far as the current flooding goes - yes it is a problem, and diverting some of that water out of the combined sewer will definitely improve the situation for those residents.  Is it enough to alleviate concern?  I don't know that we have enough information on that.

Retained basin contents?  All of these ponds tend to follow the water cycle to a large degree and have spillways and overflow forethought.  Most expect that the drainage has a 2 week life, so the ponds are sized to ensure they don't run dry - but also don't overflow (even on 10 or 100 year massive storm specifications).

As far as stagnant water goes - if the basin is maintained properly - the design allows for proper movement and drainage and such - and with a less than 2 week HRT, well, stagnation isn't a problem.

From what I can tell, and based upon my research, there would never be a reason to eliminate the basin.  It's a basin, and it is biologically acceptable, actually ecologically preferred and never loses its purpose.

There's a ton of information on these things and how to design them and maintain them on the EPA's website if you want to go and read it all.  It kinda makes sense - so long as it is implemented properly and then maintained.  That's the $64,000 question right there.


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"Success usually comes to those who are too busy to be looking for it."—Henry David Thoreau


Posted By: whistlersmom
Date Posted: Mar 08 2018 at 9:14pm

 Thanks for the information.

The EPA doesn’t really care precisely how their orders are carried out, but they will periodically test for positive results. They will continue to find non-compliance here because this single basin will only partially alleviate a very small percentage of a city wide problem. And all of the runoff collected will still eventually be dumped into the combined sewers, and sewer overflows containing sewage will continue to regularly be dumped into the river. We won’t have to imagine that this is inadequate. Actually separating the sewers is the only viable solution … so why not do that?

If all the information for constructing this basin is so readily available on the EPA website, doesn’t $338,000 sound exorbitant for only the plans and specifications (no actual construction)? Got any figures on construction cost? Just because it may be offered by EPA as a solution, it doesn’t mean that it is the correct solution for this situation. Have they determined exactly how much sediment will go into the pond from the Bull’s Run stream bed? How will that effect the maintenance? Will the basin eventually fill with sediment? Remember what happened with lake mistake sediment? What other possible problems have not been addressed.

Will we have neighborhood basins pock marking our landscape all over town? Is it ecological? Aesthetically pleasing? Or is it just an expensive side step to avoid making the inevitable correction … separate the sewers.

As to whether the proposed basin would be properly maintained … that’s the $265 million question. Just look at city halls current reputation … all the incomplete, defunct revitalization projects and associated costs. Running a muck is our city hall specialty.   



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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing" Edmond Burke


Posted By: buddhalite
Date Posted: Mar 09 2018 at 9:49am
Well,

I don't share the same immediacy of assumption that you do with all things.  However - if you look at any new construction anywhere in our area - storm water collection basins are everywhere.  It is a great way to deal with typical run-offs and can not only be aesthetically pleasing but ecologically sound.

I'm not sure what your beef is here.  I agree that one basin will in NO WAY solve the entire problem, however sometimes (and perhaps this is case here) baby steps are better than none at all.

The biggest issue I have with this right now is that we the public (the wanting to know public) are as uninformed as we can be.  We don't really know why this was the right step, we don't know why we're not going full blast with a separation, we don't know anything.  This is why Middletown was foolish to step into a new era with the strong City Manager.  You people keep electing milquetoast council persons who couldn't win their way out of a verbal argument against a stutterer - and the city is run behind closed doors even when the doors are wide open!  As I say over and again - elections are the ONLY thing that matters at this point!

It's one thing to get on here and discuss these things - but the constant bashing is getting old.  Either 3 or 4 of us are going to get up and run for the offices or not.  


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"Success usually comes to those who are too busy to be looking for it."—Henry David Thoreau


Posted By: whistlersmom
Date Posted: Mar 09 2018 at 12:09pm

 The basins that were established when our neighborhoods were taking shape and being built were a necessary almost natural occurrence and in no way resemble the proposed one acre monstrosity that displaces a city park.

And you are right, Mr Adkins has coaxed city council into giving him total control over them, city hall, and therefore, control over what every citizen in Middletown is “allowed” to do according to his rules. He has council and the citizens so blinded that no one even asks any questions about what he is having them vote on or approve. That’s a dictatorship! And dictatorships are notoriously ripe for corruption.

About 10 years ago there was a lively contest for the election of new council and mayor. The insiders and incumbent council candidates successfully watered down the opposition voting capacity by encouraging such numerous candidates from the opposition. Each of those candidates had a following, leaving none of them to garner enough votes to win a seat. So, all of the opposition were defeated.



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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing" Edmond Burke


Posted By: buddhalite
Date Posted: Mar 09 2018 at 5:38pm
Agreed.  However - Adkins doesn't have any snowballed - the city charter GIVES HIM THAT AUTHORITY!

First - we need to put some of our own up there in council and then we need to re-write the charter to actually give council more than a yes/no on everything....you are aware there is a no-messing-around clause in the charter?

We've come to the point that the only thing that matters are elections.  Who's running?


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"Success usually comes to those who are too busy to be looking for it."—Henry David Thoreau


Posted By: whistlersmom
Date Posted: Mar 09 2018 at 7:05pm
Adkins , I believe was instrumental in getting a rewriting of the charter to give him all the control

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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing" Edmond Burke


Posted By: whistlersmom
Date Posted: Mar 11 2018 at 7:39pm

 Thanks to MattR for publishing the EPA website address, http://wwwapp.epa.ohio.gov/dsw/maps/cso/index.php" rel="nofollow - http://wwwapp.epa.ohio.gov/dsw/maps/cso/index.php which reveals the sites of combined sewer overflows.

In particular, the overflow run off going to Bulls Run CSO, that Middletown is currently addressing with the installation of the proposed basin, is shown as being dumped into the Hydraulic Canal, which is itself a catch basin.

There is no indication of the Hydraulic Canal being connected to the river, because the city had blocked off the flow to the river years ago.

So, it seems that run off going to the EPA indicated, Bulls Run CSO, will have no real effect on combined sewage entering the river and if there is a connection to the river, only a miniscule amount of the city wide problem would be solved. It’s not just a bandaid ... it’s a tiny bandaid.



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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing" Edmond Burke



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