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Tuesday, November 21, 2017
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Sometimes you have to wonder....

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buddhalite View Drop Down
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    Posted: Nov 02 2017 at 5:06pm
I've reviewed the city council agenda for the upcoming 11/7 meeting and a bunch of it is just mundane business.

There's two legislation items that are of definite interest......

Apparently Grandpa Joe's wants to build downtown - and the taxpayer has to be on the hook to help lure them to downtown.  Argh.  

Part of the 10k that is being invested is to ensure that the signage is historic.  Yeah - that's what the people of this city time and time again show that's most important to them......that's why the east end is so popular with the locals.  Oh yeah - a direct hit to the city funds of another grand because, well, if it weren't for these giveaways, we'd be losing this business!  Take the grand loss on permits (that is a direct giveaway) and now no one for sure can ever tell me that the city doesn't spend money on Downtown!  

Furthermore the whole operation is only going to generate $300k in payroll annually - so if you look at the city's direct benefit to that - anyone know the numbers better than me?  How long before the city gets an ROI on this and what's the next 10 years look like?

Then you have Dedicated Motivated who is already an existing business in Middletown - who just wants to move (I don't live too far from there and I thought the already moved in?  The place is painted and appears to have activity).....if we just left them alone.....they'd still be doing what they are doing.  The additional jobs are only part-time - and the city thinks we have to subsidize that!?!?!?!?!

It's time folks - time to stand up, speak up and make it known that playing fast and loose with the city funds is the worst thing that could happen to our city.  Pretty soon, hey if you can create a single job - the city will give you 7 vacant house lots, waive permit fees for 10 years, give you back all the income tax revenues you generate - and on top of that give you money to put up a business sign (so long as it fits THEIR definition of what a sign should be.)

It's gotta stop - and also folks - these are being declared EMERGENCIES!!!!  Talk about a misuse of that statute.

Bob


"Success usually comes to those who are too busy to be looking for it."—Henry David Thoreau
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote middletownscouter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 03 2017 at 10:28am
$310,000 in payroll x 1.75% payroll tax to the city = $5,425 annually.  It would take 1.85 years of payroll taxes (on the anticipated $310,000 annual) to get back the $10,000 layout.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote buddhalite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 03 2017 at 11:19am
You know - the math doesn't seem too horrible - but the city's expectation has to be a long-term commitment to operating a business - or a more significant number of jobs have to be created....

This place is going to have mostly part-time workers - 300K in payroll seems a bit heavy to me - maybe, maybe not.

The staff report makes it sound like the ONLY reason they'll come here is because of incentives.   IF that's the case.....tell 'em not to bother.  We're gonna have to constantly give 'em stuff just to make them happy.

Businesses that demand incentives are like 4-year-old children.  Once they get something for nothing - that's all they ever want.

How about just selling the outside world on all the 'charm and quaintness' of Middletown and actually having them come here without a bunch of free money?  If downtown is all that it's supposed to be - why not?

Plus - our city is so flushed with cash - we can afford it, right?

"Success usually comes to those who are too busy to be looking for it."—Henry David Thoreau
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swohio75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 03 2017 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by buddhalite buddhalite wrote:

You know - the math doesn't seem too horrible - but the city's expectation has to be a long-term commitment to operating a business - or a more significant number of jobs have to be created....

The staff report makes it sound like the ONLY reason they'll come here is because of incentives.   IF that's the case.....tell 'em not to bother.  We're gonna have to constantly give 'em stuff just to make them happy.

Businesses that demand incentives are like 4-year-old children.  Once they get something for nothing - that's all they ever want.

How about just selling the outside world on all the 'charm and quaintness' of Middletown and actually having them come here without a bunch of free money?  If downtown is all that it's supposed to be - why not?

If the East End with interstate access is all that's it's supposed to be - why would we be offering incentives and deals for develop on the I-75 corridor.

A one-size-fits-all approach to economic development may not be the best.  Each area may need different tools in their tool box to encourage investment. 

According to the staff report, this would be over 3x the size of the Miamisburg location, include a bottled soda room, and ice cream parlor. 

As a side note, the staff report indicates the Maimisburg location sees 30,000+visitors annually.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Analytical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 03 2017 at 1:44pm
Excellent post and thanks for sharing your opinions, SWOhio75.

Your commentary is spot-on and hopefully generates additional thought-provoking responses.  After all, Middletown's priorities, policies, plans and programs are not static and merit periodic review whether it be the I-75 corridor, older neighborhoods housing/stabilization, "downtown" re-development projects, opioid crisis, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote buddhalite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 03 2017 at 3:48pm
This is a slightly edited response to a private message I just sent to a member - thought I'd just post it. 
----
Well, it's news to me as well - and the fact that it is being called 'pilot' - I assume it is something new.

The issue is - Miamisburg gets 30k visitors a year, but people actually go to Miamisburg's downtown area for other reasons than the candy store.  Middletown people are just incapable at times of understanding that when they refused to let 75 go through this town - they doomed downtown....there's nothing that is going to stop that erosion, I'm afraid.

Miamisburg is accessible easily by car - Middletown's downtown - not so much.  So much money was spent for so long keeping business away that we've now found ourselves business proof.  Even on the east end - prime commercial real estate is zoned residential!  Who would want to build a home right there anyway?  I heard rumors that Chick-fil-a was wanting to build in the the Union/122 Intersection area - but knew they'd have to put up one heck of a fight to go through on all the rezoning and then fight over water and sewer and everything else.

I am against subsidizing businesses of this size - we never really get a return on the investment (because if their estimates are correct the business only generates $5k/year in revenues for the city) and we shouldn't be considering these credits for a business that size.  What happens when someone wants to open a taco stand in a storefront there?  We gonna abate their taxes and waive their fees too?  If we do that for every business - our city will stay cash-strapped forever.

If someone wants to come here and bring 500 jobs - that's a different story and we should be considering abatements and rebates or whatever.....but for an ice cream and candy store?

*****'s painting a great picture with her words - but the reality is unless you're a booze hound - there's no reason to go to the 'new downtown' - between DORA, the distillery, the beer, the bars, the bars and the bars - what's there to do and why would I drag my family to that?  As a Christian - I have no business being in the middle of all that.

There's more empty storefronts down there now than there was in 2007 when I moved away.  That's sad - and it tells me that all we are doing is putting lipstick on the pig!

Bob
"Success usually comes to those who are too busy to be looking for it."—Henry David Thoreau
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swohio75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 03 2017 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by buddhalite buddhalite wrote:

This is a slightly edited response to a private message I just sent to a member - thought I'd just post it. 
----
Well, it's news to me as well - and the fact that it is being called 'pilot' - I assume it is something new.

The issue is - Miamisburg gets 30k visitors a year, but people actually go to Miamisburg's downtown area for other reasons than the candy store.  Middletown people are just incapable at times of understanding that when they refused to let 75 go through this town - they doomed downtown....there's nothing that is going to stop that erosion, I'm afraid.

Miamisburg is accessible easily by car - Middletown's downtown - not so much.  So much money was spent for so long keeping business away that we've now found ourselves business proof.  Even on the east end - prime commercial real estate is zoned residential!  Who would want to build a home right there anyway?  I heard rumors that Chick-fil-a was wanting to build in the the Union/122 Intersection area - but knew they'd have to put up one heck of a fight to go through on all the rezoning and then fight over water and sewer and everything else.

I am against subsidizing businesses of this size - we never really get a return on the investment (because if their estimates are correct the business only generates $5k/year in revenues for the city) and we shouldn't be considering these credits for a business that size.  What happens when someone wants to open a taco stand in a storefront there?  We gonna abate their taxes and waive their fees too?  If we do that for every business - our city will stay cash-strapped forever.

If someone wants to come here and bring 500 jobs - that's a different story and we should be considering abatements and rebates or whatever.....but for an ice cream and candy store?

*****'s painting a great picture with her words - but the reality is unless you're a booze hound - there's no reason to go to the 'new downtown' - between DORA, the distillery, the beer, the bars, the bars and the bars - what's there to do and why would I drag my family to that?  As a Christian - I have no business being in the middle of all that.

There's more empty storefronts down there now than there was in 2007 when I moved away.  That's sad - and it tells me that all we are doing is putting lipstick on the pig!

Bob
If you map I-75 (Best Buy at Dayton Mall) to Bullwinkles, you will find that it is 3.7 miles.  I-75 (O'Charleys) to Triple Moon is 5.8 miles--not that big of a difference.  I would suggest that while Miamisburg may have a more quaint and clean appearance, both downtowns offer several of the same amenities. 

Here's a list of business downtown that don't serve booze....my guess it outweighs the places that do.  
  • Crab Apple Books
  • Flores Leatherworks
  • Beau Verre
  • My Favorite Things Boutique
  • Society (currenty closed)
  • Soul Craft
  • Haute Fusion
  • Spoken Bicycles
  • Triple Moon Cafee 
  • Pendleton Arts Center
  • Lesters Rock n Roll 
  • Blast Furnace Pizza (no liquor license)
  • Gallery on Clinton
  • Haven Yoga
  • Miss Selby's Soups
  • Design2Wear
  • 1214 Central Store
  • Central Pasty
And your claim there are more empty storefronts now than in 2007?  I am not buying that at all. I've watched downtown evolve over the last 10 years The reality is, there is more activity there now and more people enjoying the downtown area now than they did in 2007.

I get it, it's not your thing. But you holier than thou attitude leaves little to be desired, especially when DORA is only in affect during certain days and hours.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote buddhalite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 03 2017 at 5:37pm
With all due respect - you don't get it.

Grandpa Joe's in DOWNTOWN Miamisburg is less than 2 miles from the DAYTON MALL and on a heavily traveled road (SR 725) - and WAY WAY WAY more accessible than anything in downtown Middletown if you're not already in Middletown.  Ever objectively travel from I-75 to downtown?  It isn't exactly a pleasurable drive, nor is it scenic, it is well - twisty, turny and pretty dreary after a certain spot.  

That's the problem.  Look at every single city along the I-75 route - which way did they grow?  TOWARD the interstate.  The only way Hamilton was able to overcome was we had to pay for a 4 lane divided highway (SR 129 in case you didn't know) to give a path to them for the rest of the world.  

All I'm saying is that this isn't field of dreams.  

And for your list - I'm a middle aged fat white guy......none of that appeals to me.  I'm not an artsy fartsy kind of guy - and you know what - neither is the majority of Middletown.  Why should the taxpayer be on the hook for this?

Again - let the private money determine the winners and losers.  My friend, if you want to put your money downtown - go ahead.  There's reasons developers aren't beating a path to downtown - and we're turning a blind eye to it all and continuing to waste good money on a pipe dream.

Bob
"Success usually comes to those who are too busy to be looking for it."—Henry David Thoreau
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