WOW- Cincinnati State.
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: Economic Development
Forum Description: Local government efforts to develop the local Middletown area economy.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3414
Printed Date: Nov 20 2025 at 11:58am
Topic: WOW- Cincinnati State.
Posted By: swohio75
Subject: WOW- Cincinnati State.
Date Posted: Oct 26 2010 at 9:30pm
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Will be interesting to see how this unfolds but it could have great potential for Middletown.
New branch campus in works for Butler County Cincinnati State officials agree to partner to open new school in Middletown CINCINNATI — More educational opportunities may be headed to Middletown as Cincinnati State Technical and Community College officials passed a resolution to partner with the city to establish a branch campus. As part of the agreement, announced during the board of trustees meeting Tuesday night at the school’s main campus, the college will begin negotiating a long-term agreement to open a branch campus while Middletown will offer buildings “free and clear” to Cincinnati State for its use. The initial start-up would center on the school’s culinary arts and hospitality programs. College President Dr. O’dell Owens said eventually the school would offer its full line of courses in Middletown. Dan Cayse, vice president of strategic initiatives and entrepreneurial development, said the college is interested in acquiring the Manchester Inn and Conference Center, the former Middletown Senior Center at 140 N. Verity Parkway and the former CG&E Building at 1 N. Main St., the current home of The Middletown Journal. Owens said the college has a key interest in the Manchester since it is “the heart of Middletown” and would work “to protect the Manchester” by rehabbing the building and adding green energy such as solar panels and a geothermal system. Meanwhile, the CG&E building would serve as the campus hub for classrooms, laboratories and administrative services. The deal has been in the works since September 2009 when late local businessman Perry Thatcher invited Cincinnati State’s resident chef to cook at the Manchester, Cayse said. School officials estimate 15 percent of Cincinnati State’s students come from the Middletown area. Coupled with the city’s central location and public transit system that can bring students from across the Butler County, Owens said the branch campus is poised for success. “This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and this really ensures the longevity of Cincinnati State,” he said. “It will give us the opportunity to grow and expand and for Middletown to gain another tool to draw business to the city.” In the coming weeks, city and school officials will be negotiating financing and building acquisitions, as well as a time frame for campus start-up. Mayor Larry Mulligan said the branch campus should have a positive impact the region. “There is a big untapped market in Middletown and the whole region. (The college) offers a curriculum our residents haven’t had access to in the past.” |
Replies:
Posted By: Mtown
Date Posted: Oct 26 2010 at 9:38pm
| I predict it won't take long for the ModdletownUSA naysayers to pounce of this development with negative babble. |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Oct 26 2010 at 9:41pm
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If this happens, Middletown will have three institutions for higher learning:
Miami Middletown Greentree Health Science Academy Cincinnati State Not to mention the proposed Kingswell Seminary, if that ever gets off the ground. |
Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Oct 26 2010 at 9:48pm
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Mtown wrote:Posted By: Voice of Reason
Date Posted: Oct 26 2010 at 9:51pm
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I am cautiously optimistic that this is great news for the city. Credit goes to the city staff and whoever else helped to bring this to fruition (assuming it actually happens, of course). Good for Middletown! ------------- "Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK |
Posted By: PattiGal
Date Posted: Oct 26 2010 at 9:55pm
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Wonderful news! ------------- "Because nice matters..." |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Oct 26 2010 at 9:57pm
This is the part that excites me the most. Full line of courses could mean students downtown--likely both day and night. 15% of 20,000 (their project current enrollment) would be 3,000. Even if we could get half that # at a Middletown Campus--1,500 The one issue with using the Cinergy Building is that Casper and Casper is located on several of the floors. If they need to be relocated to another facility, I would hope effort is made to keep them downtown. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Oct 26 2010 at 11:51pm
Do you do parties??? ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 2:33am
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As part of the agreement, announced during the board of trustees meeting Tuesday night at the school’s main campus, the college will begin negotiating a long-term agreement to open a branch campus while Middletown will offer buildings “free and clear” to Cincinnati State for its use.
Yep ya got me really excited about this deal. So the City will buy the Manchester Inn and then give it to Cincinnati State? I can't wait to see what we will be paying for this property. |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 7:07am
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Logic would say that these buildings should be purchased for $1. These same buildings couldn't be given away when Mr. Thatcher was alive.
Hey, with all these students coming downtown maybe we need to build a PARKING GARAGE!
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 7:35am
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perpetual denigration and negativism from troll mtown--so predictable and non-productive.
Personality trait obviously
should be a great fit for this area, since Cincy St. trains students for more common mid-level employment opportunities.
If it takes "outside experts" to make something happen here, it is great to see the city finally move past the old names/faces who have kept that area in shambles. Please do us a favor and take their properties also.
Cincy St. is a realistic common-sense opportunity that may also rid the area of more architectural dinosaurs.
It will also bring into play the "other" entrances to the city, lightening the pressure on the I-75 bottleneck.
Rt.4, Rt.73 and Rt.122--entrances from the north,south and west.
Hopefully some positive balance will be restored, and the former downtown area will be relavent again.
Looking forward to it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddTkQPv34dI&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddTkQPv34dI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p02X9i1C_AQ&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p02X9i1C_AQ&feature=related
4 a great time right here in river city, join us at Finkleman on 11/13!!
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 8:20am
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Cincinnati Enquirer story:
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20101027/NEWS01/10270349/1055/NEWS/Cincinnati-State-to-open-Middletown-campus - http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20101027/NEWS01/10270349/1055/NEWS/Cincinnati-State-to-open-Middletown-campus
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 10:05am
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Cincinnati State has many excellent Associates Degree programs in medicine, culinary, fire safety, IT, et al. IBM hires a number of Cincinnati State students whom have been excellent employees at many top tier companies. What is exciting and POSITIVE about this development is it expands the attractivemenss of Middletown for residents to move in to have access to so many excellent feeder institutions. These includeMUM, and the others spiderjohn referenced or others.
Where Middletown misses the boat in city hall and council is it just doesn't get what makes West Chester, Mason, and Liberty Township so attractive to residents: NO TAXES! That is why Middletown cannot compete, along with so many well documented problems already communicated. So, the addition of Cinci State just adds another + to the city and its residents, and abiliy to attract new residents, in the sense a resident can sell a homewith a buyer knowing if they have young adults, they have MUM, which feeds Miami at Oxford, Cinci State, which offers a good career path to the mid tier career positions or the students can continue on at any number of quality schools of higher ed including UC, Miami, others.
To Mtown's previous point on the inability of the younger council members to lack the experience to talk to C suite executives, while the "4" horsemen can, I read that with humor. What any business would want to hear is exactly what they hear in Mason, Libert Township, West Chester, and other cities,there are no taxes. Look at Springboro- tax rate of 1.5%. Any of the 4 could not communicate a message any better than the 3 you take shots at (who cares if anyone completed a degree and practices law---the % of law students whom drop out after a semester is higher than grad school, dental, vet, or medical school Mtown is a nonsensical point), is of no relevance.
Businesses want to hear 1) What type of school ranking do you have 2) how are you helping me and my business: ergo---tax incentives. That is not spoken effectively by the city nor the council,and inexperience has no bearing on that message.
While Cinci State will have no impact upon adding jobs in Middletown,other than the profs (they also do have a very fine paralegal program), it does help property owners, because although the citynever effectively markets the city as a good place for residents, the fact will remain- Middletown offers great post high school educational value in MUM, Cinci State when it ramps up, and other ancillary institutions. Cinci State will cannabolize some of the programs at Greentree and MUM in health, but it still will have no adverse impact upon the numbers of teaching positions. And, the residents gain by telling a buyer, in a 5 minute drive, their kids have access to a nice prep program at MUM to move on to Oxford, or elsewhere,and the same at Cinci State.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 10:08am
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So--maybe it is time to "donate" pretty much the entire area formerly known as downtown, including all properties currently owned by the Tatcher, Finkleman and Valen/Tekakis groups. They have failed to make real improvements or perform day-to-day maintence and houskeeping, and have brought in no real businesses, and nothing planned outside of holding on until the municipality sweeps in to bail them out of their holdings.
Since the PAC building required a heavily subsidized giveaway(will it really be open for a sale in Nov.?), the Manchester, former Senior Center, and former CG & E buildings are empty and non-functional at this time, there is no way that the city should pay a premium price for them. Minimum bids at best, or they should be donated by the current owners to relieve their liabilities.
If the city over-pays for these empty and dated structures, how are they going to rationalize coming to the voters when the financial train wreck happens in 2 years? How will the city afford public safety and infrastructure maintenence? How about collecting the "un-encumbered funds" and "other" category in the budgets of every dept. within the city? If the $$ is not line-itemed, then it doesn't belong in their budgets.
jmo
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 11:15am
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Mason does have an income tax rate of 1%. West Chester, Liberty and Deerfield Townships are not allowed to have an income tax because they are townships. One of the strongest arguments against West Chester becoming a city is the income tax argument. Regardless, both SJ and accarlo make excellent points. 1.) Old Senior Building: I believe the city owns it. So no cost there to the city. Attractiveness of this building to CSC is that it has a commercial kitchen for a culinary program 2.) Manchester Inn: It’s been stated here several times that the owners received a loan from the city several years ago, and this loan has not been repaid. Perhaps that will be used as a negotiation tool by the city. The obstacle here: I believe there are three partners: Levy Estate, Thatcher Estate and Bill Akers. Not sure if Levy Estate disposed of its share or not. Attractiveness of this building to CSC is that it can provide hands-on experience to students in both the culinary and hospitality programs. Plus for the city in that a downtown hotel and banquet center remain open 3.) Cingery: This one is a bit more complicated. Originally, this building was purchased by both Perry Thatcher and Peggy Blakely under the guise of Venture 3 Enterprises. Not such of both parties are still involved. I’ve heard the Blakely’s have fallen on hard financial times. Casper Law occupies floors four and five. Middletown Journal and additional law office(s) are at street level. Would these be relocated? More long-term thinking: What kind of student housing might this project bring. One of the downfall’s of MUM is that there isn’t any student housing. Which is typically the case of a branch of MUM’s size especially when the main campus is so close. Plus there are plenty of apartments in close proximity. But could a downtown campus support student housing? The city has acquired the old Orman building on Verity. Ideally, they would like to preserve part or whole and find a redevelopment partner to build out loft-style units. Could a downtown campus build a stronger case for redevelopment? Lots of good questions here. Oh, and SJ - get ready to open that gourmet grocery store downtown to support the cuilnary school and tis students
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Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 12:05pm
| The city better not pay more than $5 for the Manchester. I've heard the principals would give it away for $1 if they could. Let's see them step up to the plate and do so. |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 1:04pm
Tax Summary for Cinergy. Looks like payments are behind for 2010:
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Posted By: Mtown
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 6:57pm
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Vivian
All you do is spew negativity. What is your problem? |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 8:03pm
| acclaro, while I agree this is an optimistic development, I do wonder if this really improves the real estate market. You mention that people might move here for the educational opportunities. Really? Most people are OK with commuting 25-45 minutes to college, so would anyone really move here because of Cinti State? I don't know if MUM has caused anyone to actually move here even though certainly MUM is an asset to the community. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 8:35pm
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Bill, I was attempting to put as + spin on this as possible. Any gain from MUM and Cinci State, Greentree, et al, is negated (-) by Middletown's poor school system. I do not think this will create a + impact on job numbers, but it does fill the real estate void downtown. The additional - is of course, most who may attend Cinci State will not have jobs awaiting in Middletown, but will move elsewhere.
If the city doesn't buy these. its a gift, and at least gives the home owner something + in Middletown to attach to existing property, but you are correct: the + on higher education resources ergo MUM and Cinci State, is a net sum gain of probably above 0, associated with the reputation of the school system.
But, with gas hovering around $3.00/gal, these assets are still attractive to a buyer when marketed appropriately. The city will not do that, but a seller can. And, it does give those downtown a chnace if they wish, to get an education and lift themselves out of the situation they may be in economically.
I did not say it will improve property values, just help the seller have an extra carrot to work with to sell property, but it does nothing to elevate property values (and won't). Just my opinion.
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Posted By: squeemy
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 10:15pm
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Cincinnati State Technical & Community College is a commuter school. There won't be student housing. The other urban community college campus in the area is Sinclair CC in Dayton - again no housing and on a much larger scale. Sinclair offers a technical curricula as does the Clifton campus of CST&CC. Hospitality & culinary curricula are a good start but I'd like to see more offerings especially in areas where MUM falls short: engineering and industrial technology. Service industries are fine but we need more skilled technical people. The boost to business can come from meeting student needs - gas, food and if I remember, coffee as they won't always want to eat or hang out where they go to school. I speak as an alumnus of, what was then called, Cincinnati Technical College. |
Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 10:46pm
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acclaro - Middeltown can't compete against West Chester not only because of taxes but location . Everything around West Chester area has excellent accessibility easily seen from the expressway (for most business). You put anything in our downtown area and it's going to be hard to find for an out-of-towner. Most people think Middeltown sits right off the exit of 75 so then they get a big surprise when they find out they are miles from the downtown area.
I'd be curious to know the percentage of students going to Miami here that are out-of-towner's. I can't see to many people coming here for a culinary school. Now put it out by the interstate and it would probably thrive. People want convenience and driving from the interstate to downtown is not convenient. Same with the PAC it will not be convenient for people to make the drive. ------------- No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !! |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 10:48pm
I wasn't suggesting student housing owned by the college, but housing catering to students per se in the private sector. |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 10:50pm
Yet isn't that the case for Miami Hamilton, which is several miles from the Interstate yet has a high enrollment than MUM? |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 7:09am
| No negatives here Mtown. This appears to be a good thing for the downtown area initially. Questions: The article says that Cincinnati State will lease the buildings after the city purchases them, they are renovated and turned over to the college. If that is the case, the city is still in the real estate business as the owners, they still haven't passed the buildings on to a permanent owner and they will be liable for the taxes and general upkeep on the buildings in the future, won't they? Or, will the college be responsible for the taxes (accounted for in the lease) and any further building upkeep? Who will be paying the insurance premiums for these buildings if the college is just leasing? What will this mean for the taxpayer down the road? How much will we be paying for this transaction later? Is there a minimum time that the college is to occupy these sites? What happens if this doesn't work out in the next 3 years and the college decides to vacate the premises? Same questions go for Verdin's art building. The city, in their negotiations, needs to get some hint as to the commitment on deals like this. Otherwise, there is no long-term stability to these programs. |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 11:34am
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Taxes, no. Because the city (the same would be true for CSC) is exempt from paying property taxes. The question is how will the outstanding $14,000 in taxes on the Cinergy be dealt with if the building is “gifted” to the city. As far as renovations go, It sounds like the deal could be somewhat similar to the Greentree Academy where the city issues bonds to pay for the renovations, and those bonds are repaid with the rent form CSC: Likely, Mulligan said, the city will issue bonds for the project, with Cincinnati State paying off the debt. The school has indicated it will pursue state funding as well as any new market and historic tax credits that might be available, he said. The city is financing the construction of Greetree with the academy paying rent for so many years until the bonds are paid off. Then the ownership transfers to Greentree. |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 12:23pm
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It will be interesting to see how the Manchester's finances are dealt with. No doubt it will continue to lose $$...unless CSC pays a high amount of rent to the city. After awhile will CSC want to absorb that cost? I could see them staying in the old Sr Center and Cinergy Building but handing the Manchester back to the city and saying no thanks |
Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 2:43pm
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I don't see this as being big enrollment down there. Maybe local students might attend but not to pull from other areas. Not an easy location to access. If they do come here - it will be to commute - as they could not rent with out jobs locally to the school as well. I think it is great move to get the building being used - but do not see that this will impact the downhill spiral the city is currently on.
If I am not mistaken doesn't Miami have some building downtown that they lease - old Bank One building being one of them. Does anyone know if they have had success with offering classes down there?
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 2:55pm
Miami doesn't offer classes downtown. What's downtown in the old Bank One building is a the Center for Applied Research.
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Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 3:41pm
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But one thing to realize - it may not be any harder to get to then the Miami Hamilton location - Miami has a lot better name out there then cincinnati state. There is a difference. Not to mention to make that a valid arguement you would need to bring the demographics of where each school pulls from.
Some MUM students will go to Hamilton to take a course they can not get into at Midd - or they may even commute to Oxford for this. This in all in road to a 4 year degree. However you are talking techinical training here - they are usually there all day for a period of time. Are these same degrees offered a colleges in Cin of Dayton, that have a better location. You can not compare Miami to Cincinnati State.
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 4:19pm
Bill, assuming a huge budget item for the current Manchester ownership is utilities, I believe CSC could be addressing that as part of the renovation as one of the articles mentioned “going green.” The ballroom is still one of the nicest and largest banquet spaces—from what I can tell the renovations look nice. As a side note: I had dinner at The Manchester about two months ago on a Friday evening. It was the first time I had been there in a couple of years.
Now granted, it was Friday Nite Prime Rib Buffet nite, but I don’t eat Prime Rib. Much to my surprise, there was quite a crowd there that evening. Much to my disappointment was the food and service. First and foremost, we did not receive any bread until after we finished our dinner – despite asking for it twice. We were told that “fresh bread is in the oven.” Throughout dinner I waited to have my water glass refilled or offered another beverage. I ordered off the menu—filet mignon with baked potato and green beans. Meat was ok. Green beans were salty and tasted like they had come out of a can. Overall, the meal was rather basic and boring. During dinner, I heard a member of the wait staff tell another member that a party had just been seated and that she was going to “push the buffet.” When we finished our meal, our waitress did not ask if we wanted coffee or dessert ---just brought the check. We walked out agreeing that while want the Manchester to do well, we won’t be back for dinner anytime soon. |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 5:21pm
This year's enrollment is around 4,000 for Miami Hamilton and 2,500 for Middletown.
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Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 5:22pm
| This announcement is great news for Middletown and Downtown. It is also one of the best possible scenarios for the Manchester Inn. Kudos to all in Middletown and at Cincy State for this vision. |
Posted By: viper771
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 5:40pm
| I agree!! If it all works out, it is a positive step forward. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 5:52pm
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Although most know this, the addition of Cinci State and PAC exemplify the magical connotation of the words uttered recently by several city council members---regionalization. Middletown is darfting on Cincinnati, but that's okay. For Bobbi: MUM is really a feeder campus to Oxford and other colleges, althought it does have the Nursing program and several Associate Degree programs, including Industrial engineering. Cinci State has many specific disciplines within a two year degree program: these include several fantasic programs in medicine such magnetic imaging, surgery, and the types of specialized programs offered at Kettering. They also have a strong affiliation (fast track) to UC. so while MUM feeds Oxford, Cinci State feeds UC. So, that is a nice plus.
One could argue now with MUM and Cinci State, businesses would find Middletown very attractive, with the execption of taxation. So---the potential is there for this to be a positive. Throw in the airport, and other assets, and the foundation is there for a success somewhere downstream. I think Kasich has some innovative ideas on bringing jobs into Ohio, so in time, these types of developments do have a positive impact on Middletown. This shores up Cinci State at the north end, and PAC at least adds some branding and identification (excuse me---"regionalization") to Cincinnati.
Unfortunately, the other dismal aspects of Middletown will not allow much leverage for these efforts, a little too late in the game, but between Cinci State and MUM, you have among the best rates per credit hour in the state of Ohio.
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Posted By: rngrmed
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 8:48pm
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Besides professors, there will be secretaries and maintenance. Also assuming some housekeepers, career counselors, financial aid officers etc. Low- med range income jobs. But some more jobs. As far as who would attend? Why not some of the residents on the south side? many of them may qualify for grants. Teach them about student loans.. And now school is within walking distance.
Another reason why I think educators need to start telling kids earlier that college or education is important and they can do it. There are opportunities for them to succeed with work. May even draw in more students once Cincinnati State offers more career choices here.
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Posted By: viper771
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 9:43pm
| I would be interested in taking some classes there. It is walking distance from me and that just makes it better :) |
Posted By: angelababy
Date Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 10:39pm
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Credit goes to the city staff and whoever else helped to bring this to fruition
------------- Welcome to my paintings website - http://www.wholesaleartmall.com - Wholesale Art Mall . |
Posted By: gemneye70
Date Posted: Oct 29 2010 at 7:07pm
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I think this is a great thing for the city...I hope all of these ideas work out and make a cool place for all of us, residents and out of towners to hang out. |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 11:08am
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Here's something else to consider about location and access.
Franklin City Schools has a bond issue on the ballot to construct a new Franklin High School in the vicinity of Manchester and Shaker Roads. If this comes to fruition and other development in the area follows, look Franklin/Franklin Township to push for an exit at I-75 and Manchester Road, which would open another route to downtown from the interstate via Manchester/University and Reinartz. |
Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 4:37pm
hahahahahahahahhahahahahaha  |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Oct 30 2010 at 5:10pm
| You wonder if the city would have been better off spending the $$ that went to PAC and C St. on a new fancy building for AK out by the highway. But Wainscott and his buddies may not have gone for it anyway... |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 6:30am
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From the Journal today....Regarding claims made against Thatcher's estate before the city buys these properties.........."Two claims have been made against the estate by area banks regarding funds owed. Fifth Third Bank is claiming $296,000 against the estate, plus interest and attorney’s fees, while First Financial Bank has made a claim of $986,646.08. Councilman Dan Picard is representing First Financial(Mulligan's bank???) in that claim, according to probate court records. Neither claim indicates what assets or properties may pertain to the debts."
Anyone have any comments to make concerning Picard's involvement in representing First Financial on these properties and then voting on the purchase of these properties while on council? No conflict with his involvement before the transaction occurs or does everything seem to be above board? Should he abstain when the vote is taken to eliminate any questions? For the city leaders to claim that the city is not in the real estate business, they sure are accumulating a nice inventory of property aren't they? 
Not so sure Picard will abstain and that Landen won't allow him to vote. There's the right way to do things and then there's their way. This should be watched closely during the voting tonight. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 8:42am
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Of course Picard should abstain from a vote, as its a conflict of interest. He'd be written up in a Disciplianry report at the Ohio Supreme Court. Landon would not allow him to vote. I don't know if FBT has represented the city, but if so, because of the estate matter, probably appropriate for Allen to abstain, as it appearsthe 5th/3rd property was in foreclosurewith the reference to attorney fees (but the Journal may have that reference wrong).
More imporatntly, the city can't fix roads, can't shell out $50,000. for a pool, but will pay off the existing mortgage? Nice tax write-offs for the estate. Does anyone at city council represent any Middletownians (the majority), not a few hundred? I just don't believe the majority would agree to PAC nor Cincinnati State under these conditions. Cinci State will hurt MM's enrollment (but nothing wrong with competition), but dropping in excess of $ Mm? I just do not believe council has taken into account the majority of Middletown residents. Wow, as spiderjohn said, here's another "bail-out".
Guess there are no "teat party" members in this city as they sit idle while the city spendsmoney like drunken sailors. And I thought the city was broke? Well, they own the golf course, the airport, and now massive priperty allotments downtown. What a city, what a council.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 10:44am
| If Picard and Allen are forced to abstain from the vote, this issue cannot pass as an emergency. |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 10:47am
| would it be too much to ask for the city to negotiate a lower payoff amount ?? Doubt they would as now the banks know they have the COM over a barrel. |
Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 11:05am
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Middletown City Charter Article III, Section 18 SECTION 18. NO OFFICER TO BE INTERESTED IN CONTRACTS.
No member of City Council or any other officer or employee of the City shall be interested in the profits or emoluments of any contract, job, work, or service for the City. Any member who is, or may become interested in any contract, job, work or service for the City, shall forthwith forfeit his office. Any contract in which any member of City Council is or may become interested in any way whatsoever, may be declared void by City Council.
This would cause Mr. Mulligan and Mr. Picard (and perhaps Mr. Allen, if his firm is involved in any related business) to have to abstain from voting on these matters.
The fly in the ointment is Mr. Landens illegal interpretation and position of the word ABSTAIN. In the past he has taken the position that a vote to abstain is a "vote in favor" of the issue or a vote with the majority.
abstain - to keep from, to withhold oneself from participation; to refrain voluntarily, esp. from indulgence of the appetites. WEBSTERS NEW COLLEGE DICTIONARY.
Mr. Landens interpretation is insulting and clearly manipulative.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 11:27am
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Unquestionably, Mr. Picard would have to abstain, as he would be violating the Code of Professional Conduct, as he is representing a client. One could argue as FBT, and Mr. Allen, have represented the school district in Middletown, there is a quaisi conflict of interest, as his client has been the school district which sits in the city, and obviously has a relationship between the two.
Mr. Nagy, I don't follow enough of those bi monthly meeting enough to know if what you are stating is fact, but if so, as abstain means the vote is not taken into account (hard to believe that would be considered a YES vote), please review the link and act as your conscious may be your guide. Perhaps Mr. Kidd will beat you to the punch. It appears this will be down to 6 at minimum, but probably still would be 6-0, in spite of costs, and serious questions on ROI.
http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/DisciplinarySys/odc/default.asp
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 11:40am
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I fail to see why Mr. Mulligan would need to abstain from voting.
He doesn't OWN First Financial Bank (although he may own shares) and he isn't a member of First Financial's Board of Directors or Senior Management team. I believe he is a VP, but not sure what division he works in. As long as he hasn't "touched" this case, I see no problem with him voting. Picard should abstain however.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 11:57am
| Good point sw75. However, I had forgotten First Financial was a party and holds the lien on a property. It should now be down to 5 on council, as Mr. Mulligan would have a conflict of interest, as he is an employee of First Financial Bank the city would be buyingor paying off the property. Also, as there are liens )mortgage holders), how can the Manchester or any property be "given" to the city? The porperty is owned by the two banks involved and it reads to me, mortgages are held on the properties as collateral. I don't think the Manchester could be sold for the amount owed to the bank, and I am assuming the properties secured the debt. I reacll Mr. Mulligan abstaining on a vote concerning the YMCA, so I would find it difficult for him not to abstain from voting when he works for the bank that is owed money, aconflict of interest as his interest naturally, would be in First Financial Bank. It would be interesting to determine if there were arrears on the Manchester, but maybe not, but clearly if attorney fees were being sought, the property backed by 5th.3rd must be unless the Journal made an error is indicating fees were being sought. Just My Opionion. |
Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 12:55pm
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I think some of you are jumping to conclusions. While today's Journal article is not a model of clarity, it does say that the claims against the Thacher estate by 5/3rd and First Financial do not specify which properties are involved. Thacher owned a lot of real estate in town. You are assuming these 2 claims are connected to the properties the city wants to acquire for the Cincinnati State deal. They might be, they might not. We don't know. Also, the article says that Council will be asked to vote on a resolution to spend up to $500,000 to acquire all the properties. If the 2 bank claims mentioned do involve these properties, then clearly the city intends to negotiate a substantial compromise. Maybe the banks have been approached and already agreed. Elsewhere in the article is says that the Thacher estate values the properties that Cincinnati State wants at $1.3 million. If so, again, it appears that the city intends to pay no more than $500,000 for all the properties, which would be a fraction of the listed value.
Like you, I would like to know more details about the finances of the proposed deal. But I think we should give council a chance to work something out, as the upside potential is very large, and an active campus downtown could be the critical mass that turns things around.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 1:19pm
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"the THATCHER ESTATE values the properties that Cincinnati State wants at $1.3 million. If so, again, it appears that the city intends to pay no more than $500,000 for all the properties, which would be a fraction of the listed value."- Ms. Andrew, the Thatcher estate may want that from the properties and have appraised the values as such, but, like most property in Middletown, what people want for their property, what is is really worth, and how much people will pay for said property are really three different things. At $500 thou, the city may be getting a good deal and it may not be. What happens if the city pays $500 thou for these properties and the Cincy State thing doesn't work out. What happens if the city pays to remove all the liens against these properties to own them outright and they become vacant in time? What happens, if in 5 years, Cincy State has downsized their operations and only need 1 of the three buildings the city will own? What does the city do with the other two besides pay taxes on them, have no takers and watch as the buildings deteriorate and the taxpayers money goes down the perverbial toilet again? Don't we need to consider the risks before we get too caught up in how wonderful things will be when the school moves in? What are your feelings about the city accumulating all of this property-(ie Senior Center, Verdin's Art Center, these three Thatcher buildings, an airport, a golf course money loaned to the Manchester, etc?) Aren't they accumulating too many properties for a town that is not suppose to be in the real estate business? Does it make you go "hmmm" when you see all this money thrown at ventures like this, but they can't find the money for the streets, sewers and a swimming pool? Something isn't right here, is it?
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Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 1:28pm
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Acclaro,
Please note the charter's useage of "any", "any way whatsoever". I present it for consideration and a caution. I didn't write it the Charter says it.
The most outstanding violation was that of Perry Thatcher's abstention a few years ago on the sale of his property for the hospital while he was on council. He abstained in the vote and Mr. Landen said it counts as a vote "for". It is a matter of record. There have been others but I think you could probably get the video on that one.
Many times the issue is not what is being done but how it is being done. That is my concern here. Let it be done legally and correctly.
Paul Nagy
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Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 3:30pm
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Viet Vet, please re-read what I posted, instead of jumping all over me for things that I did not say. I did not say that the properties are worth $1.3 million. I have no idea. My point was that the amount that the city is proposing to spend is substantially less than both what the estate values those properties at, and less than the amounts that the banks have claimed. The second point was that we don't know whether or not the claims of the banks are against the properties the city is looking to acquire, or different properties. It seems that we would want to know that before any question of a conflict of interest can be analyzed.
In the last paragraph of my post, I said I need more details as to the financial terms of the proposed deal. All I am saying is, at this early stage, it sounds like a good thing for the city. Of course it would not be, if the cost bankrupted the city. But the city is seeking authority for $500,000 at this point, not 1.3 million or the amount of the mortgages, as earlier posts seemed to assume.
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Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 3:42pm
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Mike Presta is out of town and wanted me to let others know that he may be able to post about this issue later this evening.
Thank you.
Paul Nagy
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 3:50pm
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And I did not say that you said the properties are worth 1.3 mil. The Journal story mentioned that. I also did not "jump all over you", Ms. Andrew. No reason to do that. With all due respect, I believe you have over-reacted in this case.
I understand your point on the property values, Ms. Andrew. I just suggested that even though it may seem like a good deal at that price, it may not be a good deal if the buildings are empty at a later date and the city is getting nothing for its investment and the taxpayer has paid for another white elephant, that's all. It has happened too many times to dismiss the possibility. I believe you mis-interpret many things I say at times. Perhaps I don't make myself clear to you when I direct comments your way. IMO, the city should stay out of the real estate business and let the Thatcher estate, the banks and Cinci State haggle over the transactions. The city has no business using taxpayer funds to buy property. Business property such as this should be contained to private businesses. JMO |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 4:04pm
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Vet, you and others frequently complain about the lack of life in downtown, no jobs, etc. Here we have a rare opportunity to pump some life into downtown but it may require city involvement. My guess is the city is needed for the issuance of bonds. The bonds will fund the renovations needed and the city then collects lease payments from Cincy St.
I would not want this deal to happen if it costs the city too much or if the lease terms allow Cincy St to leave in the short term with the COM holding the bag. However, if those hurdles can be averted, the city's role in this may be vital.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 5:10pm
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Ms. Andrews, I will be the first to state 9/10 times the Journal gets it wrong, but I would logically assume they had some knowledge and talked to someone involved with the estate, perhaps the Exectrix, as the records in probate as you know, are not public. Then the question becomes why would a bank and its shareholders be willing to settle for .5% of appraised value, and I assume based upon my reading, there to be liens on the property, that they would not just let a $15 Mm estate pay the amount owed to each? This defies logic.
To me, my interpretation is the city and the Estate have been in negotiations for a period of time. As you know, the devil is in the contractual details. How many years will Cinci State commit to a lease? 10, 20, 30, or 5? I find it very hard to believe two banks would be willing to forgive nearly $800,000. when the funds are available within the estate. The city SHOULD NOT be in the real estate business just as the government shouldn't be owning GM, AIG, and the other bail-outs.
There is something quite odd about this situation, and one would have to assume The Journal did its homework, has accurate numbers, and has contact with the Exectrix.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 6:20pm
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Bill: And just where does the money come from for the city to be able to issue these bonds?
You state- "The bonds will fund the renovations needed and the city then collects lease payments from Cincy St." LEASE payments implying that Cincy State is not intending to BUY the buildings and commit as the city desperately needs downtown. The lease arrangement COULD-COULD (speculating here) make it quite convenient for Cincy State to vacate the buildings at their discretion, leaving the city holding an empty building for how long?????  To add insult to injury, the city is out the bond money for the renovation, benefiting the school and the school COULD (speculating here)get to stay "as long as they want to"
The same thing just occured with Verdin's Art building. The city is spending money to get the place the way Verdin wants it and Verdin can leave anytime he thinks it isn't worth it anymore. In each of these cases, the city is taking the risk and absorbing costs it can't afford, with no long term commitment for Verdin or Cincy State as it stands now. (speculating again) I'd like all of this to work out too, but what happens if it doesn't? No one is asking that question are they? We'll have a group of unwanted city owned, taxpayer funded buildings that we can't give away free. Too great of a risk IMO. You mention that some of us complain about the lack of jobs. Whatever happened to creating jobs the old fashion way. IE- the employer is enticed to town, chooses a location, the city provides tax incentives for a few years to free up some company money to build the business and hire more people and grow from there WITHOUT THE CITY BUYING THE BUILDING FOR THEM, WITHOUT THE CITY PAYING ANY LIENS ON THE BUILDING CHOSEN, WITHOUT THE CITY PAYING ANY BACK TAXES, WITHOUT THE CITY CUSTOM REHABBING THE BUILDING FOR THE PRIVATE BUSINESS TO ACOMODATE THEIR NEEDS, ETC. Where does the new business responsibilities begin in setting up their PRIVATE business? |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 8:42pm
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wow is perfect
So the cincy st project will finally force the city to deal with the area sewer system?
imagine the timeframe involved
can't wait to see the financing plan for this project
well--we all knew that it would happen eventually
might as well do it b4 the school build-up
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Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Nov 02 2010 at 8:58pm
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Vet, your rants are usually well-founded but you now are complaining when you have ASSUMED the negative and criticize this project when none of us know the details yet. We just don't know yet.
The fact is your dream scenario of private business coming downtown soley for a little tax abatement, the same tax abatement that ALL towns offer, is wishful thinking.
No doubt the PAC giveaway was ridiculous. But don't assume...yet... the same generous terms will apply to the Cincy St project.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 03 2010 at 12:17pm
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With the Lakota and Mason school levies being defeated, we can expect a bump in Middletown open enrollment? Bill, totally agree Cinci State has a great reputation for offering solid programs and at a good price point. How well will it do in Middletown? I have no idea. Mnay of the medical programs are duplicated by Greentree Academy, MUM, and Kettering. The culinary school is quite good, and I know several students who went there,work at the Marriott, and attend UC getting a degree. Maybe there is some excess capacity (probably plenty) that between MUM and Cinci State, would allow a student tolive in a campus like dorm environment. Perhaps dedicate two floors to it. Will more frequent the Manchester because of the program,or not? Will it take students away from MUM or Greentree? No idea. Will it draw from Mason, WC, Springboro, and other other areas? Probably. Cinci State would not pay property tax, and most of Middletown is now non profits, with exception of AK, Quaker Chem, Pilot Chem, etc.
With Kasich being eleced, the train stop is dead (good---waste). I think most would state there are more questions which make this disconcerting than answers at the present. But, if it goes through, there are payroll taxes.
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Posted By: Nick_Kidd
Date Posted: Nov 03 2010 at 10:46pm
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The questions I have are: 1. How many Middletown citizens will be employed by Cincy State? 2. Since most of the properties involved pay high property taxes, Cincy State is a non-profit and pays no property taxes and we must hold the schools harmless, will the city make up the lost school funding? Or, as usual, will they dump these additional expenses onto the few honest tax-paying citizens left in Middletown. 3. Since what little income tax that the city collects will have to go to the schools, who will pay for police and fire protection for Cincy State? 4. Since we have all been told how shovel-ready sites were so much more desirable than old buildings, why doesn’t the city really help PAC and Cincy State and give them empty lots that have very low property taxes. 5.How can the city even consider selling bonds to purchase these buildings, when they are still trying to pay the bonds for removing the City Centre Mall roof and the airport? Since they have made little to no headway on paying these bonds, I believe that we owe more on these bonds now than we did a few years ago. ------------- Government is not the answer to problems, government is the problem. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 04 2010 at 7:27am
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President of the Middletown Convention and Visitors Bureau and local business owner Linda Moorman said it will take “a big chunk of change,” referring more to how the campus could bring money, training and new ideas to the area than how much will be expended to secure the project.
From the Journal..."As Moorman asked those in the audience in support of the project to raise their hands, about 30 people did so to a round of applause. The Rev. Greg Tyus read a letter on behalf of the Middletown School Board in support of the project and the educational opportunities it will bring to the area. As a member of the school board and a college alumnus, Tyus said he believed the project would be “great for all of us.” Michael Pratt, the regional dean of Miami University, said Miami would welcome the addition of Cincinnati State to the community, adding that he looks forward to partnering with the school and helping to improve the lives of those in the community through training and education" All fine statements IF this thing works out the way they THINK it will, but no one is asking any needed questions. These comments come only knowing what's on the surface. IMO, another "knee-jerk" reaction by Tyus, Pratt, and Moorman and her group on what appears to be a great opportunity. No one to date, before these properties are purchased by the city and before Cincy State is given the "key to the city", is asking specifics about Cincy State's intentions and what their part will be in the long-term success of this venture yet the city is preparing to delve into purchasing these properties for them. The same thing happened at a council meeting when the PAC supporters, one by one, approached council supporting the idea without having a clue as to the risk of long term occupancy or whether the city was going to be left holding the bag if things went wrong for some reason. Both are risky situations without knowing the commitments BEFORE jumping into the unknown waters. A time frame contract for commitment from both is needed before absorbing this $500 thou risk. JMO |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 04 2010 at 9:18am
| The fact two banks are "negotiating" to take less than what is available in funds in the estate is bizarre. If I were shareholder of either, I;d be asking questions. If I were dean of Cinci State, I;d be evaliuating why Hamilton has a higher enrollment than MUM, and be asking what student numbers can I put up in Middletown. If I were the ED,and city manager, I;d be asking how can I get a 20 year commutment or greater on the lease. If I were a citizen, I'dbe concerned how much, if any, of the loss of tax is going to be passed to me from the loss of the taxation on these buildings becoming non profit. But, it will poss 6-0, and no need to worry about anything as these questions are on the shoulders on a Dean, two banks and their share-holders. I have absolute confidence, these buildings are not worth $500,000. or the two banks would not negotiate this price down. Next, the city should buy the Jug, and let the culinary institute run it. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 04 2010 at 10:25am
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Wouldn't care who ran the Jug as long as they didn't repeat the original Coke formula thing and try to change the taste of the hamburgers there. Those hard, overcooked waffle fries could go though.
acclaro- just don't understand why someone.....anyone isn't asking the important questions on return on investment that is asked in any normal monetary transaction. How 'bout you Josh, AJ or Ms Scott-Jones?? How about asking these questions on behalf of the taxpaying citizens who are footing the bill on this? Or are we just going to jump in the water without checking the depth? |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Nov 04 2010 at 10:44am
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A lot of the Thatcher estate is tied up in a business that was going to be sold last year but I believe delays have set in. So maybe the estate is not that liquid.
The continued mentioning of this "$500k" number sounds fishy as if the purchase prices have already been agreed upon.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 04 2010 at 10:47am
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This is all developing so fast, and as usual is being rushed as an "emergency", when in no way should it be handled in this manner.
This is a wonderful/important opportunity/project that should be handled with care in order to get it right from the beginning. There really is no rush--these properties will not be transferred over-night, and the financing options should be examined.
Please take the time to do it right--it is not necessary to be treated as an "emergency"!
We have not elected Ms.Moorman,Mr.Pratt, or Mr.Tyus to any public position where they have true input into this process. They can be citizens commenting just like the rest of us. Besides, all of them have relied on municipal/taxpayer funding for their existence. Spending public $$ is a way of life for them.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 04 2010 at 11:09am
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Spider, is there not any legislation that's not an emergency? Also troubling a few seemed to play their hand and knew this had been in the works for some time (interesting huh?) So, if the Manchester gifts the buildings, including the Inn,and it stays open, will Cinci State get the proceeds or will someone step out and get those revenues for the restaurant business? Who is paying Mr. Akers off- or is he gifting his stake? If the Cinci State campus runs the Manchester, isn't that considered non profit, or will they sublease it for a sweetheart deal? I really do not understand what the attarction for Cinci State to be in Middletown, but that's the Dean's problem. MUM probably loses money, but the state the cash out. Under Kasish, he won't be so receptive to support the unions and schools as Strickland was to secure the "young" vote.
While many questions linger, te reality is Cinci State is a fine school, and if students don't mind fighting the traffic cameras, and they feel they can sustain their enrollment, God bless them. Will be really interesting what partners sublease the Manchester from Cinci State to keep the Manchester open. I don't see how a non profit such as Cinci State could do that as a non profit, but maybe they will run it.
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Nov 04 2010 at 1:15pm
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I think its being acted upon as emgergancy because does't that waive the 30-day enactment period? Technically, it is getting two readings. Nov. 2 and Nov. 16.
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Posted By: Mtown
Date Posted: Nov 04 2010 at 4:40pm
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More anal arm-chair quarterbacking by the MiddeltownUSA old guard.
Don't you think that anyone on City Council that may have a conflict will check to determine if in fact there is one? Another perfect example of aimless wondering by a very small number of people on MiddletownUSA that seem to have nothing important to do with their lives. Focus on something that matters. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 04 2010 at 5:08pm
| Attaboy Mtown. Nice to hear from you again. Still waiting on your game plan to improve the town. You have nothing to offer do you. Instead, all you have offered since making a nuisance out of yourself here is aimless, mindless popping off at the mouth with no signs of having enough mental capacity to offer any suggestions that would sway us to your side of the ledger and find reason to defend some of the leaders you seem to want to cozy up to all the time. Polishing the knobs of city hall leaders seems to be your cup of tea bud. You've got the whole anal thing wrong pal. The anal retentive people in this town swallow the whole load of crap they're shoveling downtown. That's as nice as I can talk to a person with your character. The small number of people on Midd USA? The number has grown in the last year or two. Keep watching. It will continue to grow. If the site had no significance, council people and the city wouldn't be monitoring it now would they? Focus on something that matters? What an ignorant statement to make. We are focused on something that matters. The prosperity and welfare of this town. Mercy. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Nov 04 2010 at 5:44pm
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Mtown, you are EXACTLY CORRECT! There is no need to speculate. The history demonstrates like everything city council has done, this will be a BUST! We had the outdoor theme setting by the river---a bust. We had the Mall with the roof to be covered, and then uncovred----BUST! We had funds taken out of the general fund for infrastructure in 1988 never to be rescinded---BUST and an incredible disservice to its residents. We had the $5 Mm given to keep Middletown Hospital from running to Warren Cty---Bust- no biomedical extravagance, an abundance of new jobs, but consolidation and a load of money for Perry Thatcher. We have the Regional Airport acquisition---another BUST! We have city ownership of Weatherwax---now on how many years of taking funds from the General Fund to make up for the loss of income in vs taken out---BUST! We had the $50,000. in investor funds put up by Pratt, and wasn't it Allen or an attorney at FBT for the airline carrier that was to come to Middletown---another BUST! They went bankrupt in a month didn't they after the money had exchanged hands! Then, we had the school system building new schools that did not attract more students as planned and promised---another BUST!
Mtown, you are so correct. There is no need to speculate on this venture. It is doomed. Everything council touches and the city, goes down in flames. So, here's expectation based upon past experience, this will be a BUST as will PAC!
How many years do you have Mtown with the city before you retire or complete your tenure on council?
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 14 2010 at 5:03pm
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From the Journal today....
Dan Cayse, vice president of strategic initiatives and entrepreneurial development, said while the school is committed to Middletown, financial ratio requirements for state colleges and universities would prevent Cincinnati State from owning the buildings. “We decided in the discussions with the city ... the best way to proceed is for the city to own the buildings and to enter into long-term lease agreements with them,” Cayse said, adding that it’s possible the college may try to buy the buildings in the future. Don't understand this. Am I misreading these two paragraphs? In the first paragraph, Cayse says the "financial requirements for state colleges and universities would PREVENT CINCINNATI STATE FROM OWNING THE BUILDINGS" Second paragraph, he says "it's possible the college may TRY TO BUY THE BUILDINGS IN THE FUTURE" ?????? Thought the first paragraph said they were prevented from owning them???
IF Cincy State only leases these buildings, they can leave when the lease is up. If they owned the buildings, wouldn't they have more of a commitment to stay and "try a little harder if things started "going sour"???? |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Dec 22 2010 at 9:13am
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From the Journal on Dec. 22.......Well, looks like the beginning of trouble in paradise with the buildings the city purchased for Cincy State.....
"Cincinnati State may not use all buildings city acquired for campus here" "Just what will happen to some of the buildings acquired by the city if a new college campus doesn’t want them was a subject of discussion at the City Council meeting Tuesday night". NOW, council thinks about this??? 
"Gilleland said no decisions have been made for how buildings may be used if the school does not want them, but emphasized the city does not want to get into a landlord situation.- TOO LATE JUDITH- the city done messed up again trying to be real estate agents. How many times do we have to go through this scenario before you people learn? Fools “If (Cincinnati State) is not interested, we need to dispose of them in some way,” she said. So,Judith, your plan was to buy them, watch as they sit empty, then eventually claim you can't find a buyer (kinda like the Swallens building, Studio and others) and demolish it, leaving another empty lot downtown. Why, why.....it's brilliant!  How much more of the people's money are you  's going to waste? Fire 'em all. Ms. Scott- Jones, you mentioned that you would admit to wrong doing if this didn't work out when you voted for it. Looks like it has a chance of happening. Prepare to make your public statement. Some of us haven't forgotten your comments.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Dec 22 2010 at 9:30am
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Vet, I believe Vivian and Mike Presta had this addressed elsewhere, ergo, intended to be given to the Middletown Historic Society all along, so apparently a move intended.
To your post above the recent post. Something is interesting about this whoe CSCC deal. The reference the STRATEGIST is making is that the debt/equity ratio for the amount of funding they would have to borrow is too high and will out of bounds, by state state requirements. I believe fiscaly year for most states is July to July. So they have no money capitalized for this project? No planning. Why are they wanting to move so rapidly? Want to take a bet this turns out to be just the culinary school?
What's behind CSCC desire to move so quick, when they have no money in this fiscal year, for these buildings? They have had at least one issue with a senior adminsitrator that had some unsavory business dealings which led to termination/ accelerated resignation. What's behind the fascination and need to cloak all this with a possible lease, and then purchase after they get through the fiscal year, and start raising money. And with all the cuts Kaisich is planning, this is still a "go."? Probing needed at CSCC.
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Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Dec 22 2010 at 10:16am
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If the city council ends up agreeing to Jim Stabler's (vice president of the historic commission) request to acquire the Bank One building then they will be complicit in this whole fraud. We have been told that Sam Ashworth and Mayor Mulligan are involved in this up to their ears and Judy Gilliland is pushing the envelope to make it happen. If this is true it is time for a revolt. We just cannot go on any longer with this type of corruption and destruction to our city. Its been going on for years and it must stop.
Remember, all of those people who came down to the council meeting in support of Cinc. State coming. We all were hoping the agreements had happened.They were told certain things had been agreed upon. We and they were deceived! Their silence from here out on the matter will be deafening.
Council, please clean house.
Paul Nagy
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Dec 22 2010 at 11:39am
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It was the look on Ms. Judy’s face when A.J. Smith inquired about the letter in their packet from Mr Stabler…priceless…and then Dan Picard started asking pesky questions also. Ahhh yes...talk about a sweet deal!
However that mouthy kid A.J. opened his mouth and blew her entire plan. Hmmm…Didn’t our “Devious Diva” just put some property on the |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Jan 25 2011 at 6:38pm
Cincy State courted by others besides MiddletownBy Jessica Heffner, Staff Writer 5:52 PM Tuesday, January 25, 2011
MIDDLETOWN — Middletown is not the only city trying to court Cincinnati State Technical & Community College for a new branch campus During the school’s board of trustees meeting Tuesday, President O’dell Owens said the city of Hamilton has expressed interest in the school opening a branch campus there instead of in Middletown. Owens said a meeting he thought was meant to discuss his speak at the upcoming Greater Chamber of Commerce annual dinner and meeting turned into a pitch to open a Hamilton campus. Owens said the possibility of the former Elder-Beerman Department Store being turned into a collaborative college campus was discussed. He told Cincinnati State trustees that he doesn’t believe the plan to be viable right now since the city does not have the building no any form of funding or commitments in place to get the project off the ground. “This is obviously not the same kind of deal in Middletown,” he said. Dan Cayse, vice president of strategic initiatives and entrepreneurial development for Cincinnati State, said they have not received a formal offer from Hamilton and emphasized the school remains committed to the Middletown project. “Our priority right now is Middletown. If we are going to focus our efforts anywhere it’s going to be there,” he said. ------------------
You just knew something like this would happen. Now with Robinette gone, is anyone working on getting a deal done with CincySt? Any urgency....hello? anyone out there in city hall?
If this falls through it will spell Judy's departure... |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 25 2011 at 7:09pm
| Bill, you are joking right? Middletown is giving CS a sweetheart deal, a commercial kitchen, you name it, for the culinary school only. Hamilton just comes along with no freebies or a sweetened deal too good to refuse. You actually think MR is the kingpin on sweetheart deals? So this deal, with the Manchester gone, and CS knowing how desperate Middletown to be, is hoping to talk toothers elsewhere...especially with MR gone? Hamilton will only sweeten this further for CS. Comical really. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jan 25 2011 at 9:18pm
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As of My bet is that |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jan 26 2011 at 6:24am
Will there be any backlash at all if this Cincy State deal falls through, given the money spent on mothballed properties, bailing out the Manchester, back taxes, rehab, etc? If Cincy State is a no show on this project, will Gilleland, Mulligan and others responsible for this, feel the wrath of the people? Probably not.....everyone mad as hell.......no one mad enough to ask council for resignations from the city leaders. Business as usual, although lighter in the city wallet now for jumping the gun on property purchases done on a handshake and a smile and unwanted downtown buildings sitting for decades decaying. Same goes for Verdin's arts center. Taxpayer money spent without taxpayer consent nor a signed deal in hand, with potential catastrophy around the corner. Disgusting. 
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 26 2011 at 8:36am
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What baffles me is the excitement CS has in this project? What is it that is so enticing---because its a deal that's too good to pass up with Middletown absorbing such huge expense? Hamilton is not a serious contendor, what are they going to do, put a kitchen in the Elder Beerman building? It is obvious CS's focus is solely upon the culinary school and the Mancgester's previous past. The question to be askd is what business and influx of residents does this impavt? I say very little. PAC has commitments for 5 now right? That includes a picture framer, moving out of a home office. That's unique isn't it, a picture framer moving out of a home to frame pictures at PAC. And exhibitions once or twice a month is to bring alot of traffic downtown?
Oh well...why bother, its done. Hamilton just squeezes Middletown to give a better deal to CS when they are giving away the store now. Well, we'll have lots of chef's to provide Bob Evans, Cracker Barrel, and Brown's Run.
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Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jan 26 2011 at 12:09pm
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Gentlemen |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 26 2011 at 12:54pm
| Vivian, here's a memo to city: back end the lease, get State in at a lower cost, so the cost the first 3 years is low, and then backend load it, with amortized rates going up over time. By doing so, State moves in faster, and commits to longer lease agreement. With the State funding cuts, the sweet deal will need to be made sweeter by the emerging competition. But, they don't have a kitchen, won't give what Middletown will, and if 50% of State's students come from Middletown, they figure they'll grow the base locally. Not certain how much calculus State is putting into how many patrons will be dining at the Manchester. |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Jan 26 2011 at 10:42pm
Funny you mention that, because the old Elder Beerman building still has a kitchen from its old restaurant. Probably not very usable, however, especially compared to the Manchester which has been open in the last decade. Hamilton has been working with Sinclair and Miami to establish vertical degree programs in the Elder Beerman building, and the Hamilton Community Foundation has already started fundraising, I believe (at least they are advertising the project in their newsletter). So it was interesting to hear that they are now talking to Cincinnati State.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 27 2011 at 8:32am
| SM, I did not know there was a kitchen in the building, thanks for the post, but as you said, I realize they (Cincinnati State) wants a kitchen, commercial grade, and would prefer the historical significance of the Manchester. O'Dell also indicated almost 50% of Cicinnati State's students comes from Middletown. That is not to imply Hamilton could not put in a commercial kitchen, make the deal better than Middletown, but either he was posturing with other communities, or truly geels a gentlemen's agreement has been reached. |
Posted By: middletownscouter
Date Posted: Jan 27 2011 at 8:35am
| I thought the plans were not just to run a culinary school but a hospitality school which would likely include things like hotel management. Something much easier to teach in an actual hotel rather than an old department store. |
Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Jan 27 2011 at 9:11am
| acclaro, I believe the proportion of CSt students from the Middletown "area" was 15% not 50%. fyi |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 27 2011 at 9:51am
| Bill, thanks. I thought O'Dell stated their numbers, with 50% of Middletown students modeled for forecsting, would generate a break-even point and justified the fcus upon Middletown. Thanks for clarifying my error. What I took out of his comment was Middletown was particularly important to them associated with the high % of students from the area attending the school, which was he first I had read that made Middletown a more logical choice for their evaluation. |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jan 29 2011 at 1:33pm
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Weekly Update to City Council from the City Manager Several staff members and consultants met Friday with Dan Cayse of us to establish a plan of action for the entire project. I anticipate that it will be another month or more before we have a plan of action. We continue to work as expeditiously as possible on this project. There are a number of other factors that staff is also working on aside from the main project: tenants in the existing buildings, maintenance of the buildings, etc. Plans are still to acquire the Manchester Inn and Chappel building in the next couple of weeks.
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