Middletown Forum : I was WRONG about School Levy http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/ This is an XML content feed of; Middletown Forum : School Tax Issues : I was WRONG about School Levy Mon, 05 Oct 2026 18:48:48 +0000 Sun, 18 Jul 2010 07:09:17 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 10.12 360 www.middletownusa.com/forum/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=3069 Middletown Forum http://middletownusa.com/images/blog-logo.jpg http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/ I was WRONG about School Levy : Hermes the U.S.Census has been... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20166&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20166 Author: Pacman
Subject: 3069
Posted: Jul 18 2010 at 7:09am

Hermes the U.S. Census has been estimating for the last 2-3 years that the population of Middletown has declined to about 48k so this is nothing new.
]]> Sun, 18 Jul 2010 07:09:17 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20166&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20166 I was WRONG about School Levy : I have to go along with Mike on... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20161&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20161 Author: Hermes
Subject: 3069
Posted: Jul 17 2010 at 1:21pm

I have to go along with Mike on the "who's paying what" school levy issue.
 
But I do have one question.....when a bank or financial institution repose a house & lot do they pay local taxes on it ? Such as the school tax.
 
And Vivian brings up an interesting item about the number of tax paying citizens left in the city. Regardless of the number someone is going to have to pay for this levy.
 
Once again I don't think the school board took anything into account when they presented this levy. As with DC politicians, in my humble opinion, they see the citizens as an endless stream of income for their cause.  I don't believe for a second that the board gives a rats rear end what kind of shape this town is in or it's citizens. What I'm saying is harsh and I could be totally wrong, perhaps the board did research prior to presenting the levy,I don't know. I know I wasn't contacted by anyone doing a survey to see if it was feasible for me to pay,that much I do know. (Thats being used as an example)
 
Bottom line....whether it's city council,school board or even the state or county to present a levy or pass an extra tax without first researching to find out if people are capable of paying or not is wrong in my book. To drive people further into debt or risk the loss of a home because they can't pay is beyond reason. It doesn't matter if the levy cost a home owner $100 per year or $600 per year,that is still money being taken away from a family that could be used for a meal,gasoline,school clothes,medical bills,repairs etc etc etc. And don't forget money being paid on OTHER levies that have been passed,so in total the school levy is just another one on the long list of passed levies someone has to pay for.
 
I have and always will vote against levies. (although I did vote for the library,like an idiot)]]> Sat, 17 Jul 2010 13:21:01 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20161&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20161 I was WRONG about School Levy : Vivian, I think it is a forgone... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20159&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20159 Author: Pacman
Subject: 3069
Posted: Jul 17 2010 at 9:16am

Vivian, I think it is a forgone conclusion that the population of Middletown has declined.  I also don't see how having more properties bought up by Section 8 landlords is going to solve Middletown's issues.  Increasing the  poverty rate is not the answer to ANY of Middletown's problems.
 
There comes a time Vivian when you have to say enough is enough and stand on your own two feet and not rely on the Almighty HUD funds which come with far to many strings and far to few dollars to make them worthwhile for Middletown.
]]> Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:16:19 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20159&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20159 I was WRONG about School Levy : Mike Soon we will have another... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20158&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20158 Author: Vivian Moon
Subject: 3069
Posted: Jul 17 2010 at 8:00am

Mike
    Soon we will have another big problem here in Middletown.
If the New Section 8 Inspection Rules are passed by City Council none of the foreclosed properties that are now up for sale will be purchased here in Middletown so they will continue to set empty and suck up city funds and property values will continue to fall here in Middletown.
    Then we have all the commercial property that has been sitting empty for years.
    I can’t wait for the census report to confirm that we do not have 50,000 people left here in Middletown.

]]> Sat, 17 Jul 2010 08:00:27 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20158&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20158 I was WRONG about School Levy : VietVet wrote:Mike- are you... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20156&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20156 Author: Mike_Presta
Subject: 3069
Posted: Jul 17 2010 at 5:58am

Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Mike- are you trying to suggest that if the schools are guaranteed 18.3 mils and there are fewer residents in town(say 48,000) to pick up the tab, that we all will be paying more than if we were at full capacity (say 54,000)???? That makes too much sense and is too logical on the math scene for me.

Speaking of school funding- the amount the schools are getting should be going down as our property values have dropped by 20 to 40 thou with the re-evaluations done by Rogers in the off-year assessments, right?( I'm being sarcastic here by the way). Has any of our property taxes gone down to the level of our newly established, downgraded property values? I haven't seen a drop in my taxes. They are the same amount as before the recent re-appraisal of property even though my home was re-appraised for 30 thou less than it was worth a few years ago. What gives here folks?
Vet,

Not quite!!!

First, the schools are (I believe) guaranteed $18.3 million per year, not 18.3 mils.

Second, (and once again, this is just what I believe--i am NOT a lawyer, thank goodness!!! Wink Big%20smile ) if your property is reappraised, it has been said, that it will not affect the "school" portion of your taxes, as long as you have not made substantial improvements to your home!!! For example, if by some miracle all properties in Middletown rose in value by 25%, the school tax rate would go DOWN so that your tax bill would remain the same. Conversely, if all Middletown properties sank by 25% (AGAIN), the school tax rate will go UP, so that portion of your tax bill would remain the same!!!

However, if you add six rooms to your home, a swimming pool, a three car garage, tennis courts and a wine cellar, and thereby raise the appraised value by 10%, the school portion AMOUNT of your property taxes will go UP about 10%!!!

Conversely (and once again I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY!!!), if my house burns down, and I decide not to rebuild but simply to clear the rubble and to fill in the hole and simply hold onto the lot, the school levy component of my property taxes should go DOWN substantially, perhaps by 75 or 80%!!!!

The thing is that, YOU, Hermes, Randy, Pacman, Spiderjohn, Nagy, Bill, Wasteful and the rest will all have to ADD to YOUR taxes to make up the shortfall my empty lot leaves in the $18.3 million per year that we guaranteed to the MCSD on May 4, while I take the insurance money move to the outer banks of the Carolinas.

At least that’s the way that I, as a non-attorney, see it!!!

Attorney Andrews may disagree.

]]> Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:58:51 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20156&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20156 I was WRONG about School Levy : Oh, and have a nice day!!! http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20154&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20154 Author: Mike_Presta
Subject: 3069
Posted: Jul 17 2010 at 5:06am

Oh, and have a nice day!!! Smile]]> Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:06:53 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20154&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20154 I was WRONG about School Levy : Well??? Well?!?! WELL!!! Well,... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20153&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20153 Author: Mike_Presta
Subject: 3069
Posted: Jul 17 2010 at 5:00am

Well??? Well?!?! WELL!!!

Well, I may have erred in what it is called. And, well, even pro-levy posters referred to “conversion levies“ without challenge. And, well, I didn’t want to argue about this any longer and perhaps “moot” was not the correct legal term to use, but, then again, well, I am not a lawyer. And, well, at least to me, what the dang thing was called was NOT the issue!!!

So, let’s get back to what was the issue (at least in MY mind):

1. “It is a fixed sum levy, that will generate the fixed sum ($18.3 million) for the district.” [Your words, Ms. Andrew, not mine, but we agree on this!!!]

2. The “population size is not directly relevant to taxes. It's a property tax, not a per capita tax. The people can leave town, but the property cannot. Someone owns it, and a tax is assessed against it.” [Once again, your words, Ms. Andrew, not mine, but we agree on this!!!]

Now, back to the original point, regardless of what the thing is called:

As hundreds (and possibly even thousands) of properties are demolished, land banked, converted to parks, or otherwise turned into properties which NO TAX-PAYING ENTITY OWNS (such as municipal government), exactly how will this “fixed sum” be “generated” without “raising taxes” (as that term is commonly understood by the layman) on the rest of us???

ONE single levy was substituted for TWO, and, at the same time, converted from a fixed term to a never-ending proposition.  Call it a "duck" (even though it doesn't quack), or call it a "unicorn" (even though it has no horn), that is NOT the question!!!  The paragraph immediately above in BLUE is the question!!!  (And, at least in MY MIND, that has been the question from the start!!!  Go back and read the transcript posts of BOTH threads!!!)]]> Sat, 17 Jul 2010 05:00:44 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20153&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20153 I was WRONG about School Levy : What happens to the funding when... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20149&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20149 Author: wasteful
Subject: 3069
Posted: Jul 16 2010 at 5:44pm

What happens to the funding when and if the city ever gets around to demolishing 2000-3000 homes?

]]> Fri, 16 Jul 2010 17:44:20 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20149&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20149 I was WRONG about School Levy : I expect "collectability"... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20145&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20145 Author: spiderjohn
Subject: 3069
Posted: Jul 16 2010 at 4:06pm

I expect "collectability" to become a much more difficult issue as the economic "situation" lingers.
Especially if the commercial property collapse happens(just look at thempy business structures + those filled by marginal tenants).
 
So--what happens to the funding when a sizable # of owners can't pay?
]]> Fri, 16 Jul 2010 16:06:35 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20145&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20145 I was WRONG about School Levy : Viet Vet, the Buckeye Institute... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20141&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20141 Author: Marcia Andrew
Subject: 3069
Posted: Jul 16 2010 at 1:23pm

Viet Vet, the Buckeye Institute paper that Mike Presta cited at the beginning of this thread actually explains why taxes drop very little when property values go down, as you noted.  Very short summary that leaves out lots of intracies, is that while property owners are shielded from almost all the increase in taxes that would otherwise be associated with increased property values, due to HB 920 (and school districts only see a small fraction of an increase), the opposite happens when property values go down--school districts are shielded from almost all the decrease that would be associated with decreased property values, and property owners only see a small fraction of a drop.  So, as property values drop, the school district will see a small decrease in taxes collected on the inside millage, but not on taxes collected on fixed sum levies.
 
As to the rest of your question, the population size is not directly relevant to taxes. It's a property tax, not a per capita tax. The people can leave town, but the property cannot. Someone owns it, and a tax is assessed against it.  Collectibility does becomes an issue.
 
Marcia Andrew
]]> Fri, 16 Jul 2010 13:23:26 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3069&PID=20141&title=i-was-wrong-about-school-levy#20141