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  <title>Middletown Forum : Did I miss something???</title>
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   <title>Did I miss something??? : I&amp;#039;m just a humble man, but...</title>
   <link>http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3687&amp;PID=32129&amp;title=did-i-miss-something#32129</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=334">acclaro</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 3687<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> Mar&nbsp;05&nbsp;2012 at 11:59am<br /><br />I'm just a humble man, but in my opinion, the very problem with Committees, is the outcome is assured by those that tell the Committees what outcome they desire. Too many crimes committed to have officers sit by the roads and control traffic? I see more police officers sitting at the Goodwill, Kohl's, Target, Lowe's Kroger's. Meijer's, than any intersection. Crime is not a reason to avoid due diligence on watching for bad driving. The other day, I saw a Camaro and Porsche driving 70 mph down Rosedale by the Arboretum in a Grand Prix, crossing over University, then back down, laps. How about a few officers parked at the Arboretum to avoid the cross Middletown run.&nbsp; ]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 05 Mar 2012 11:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Did I miss something??? : Spider: I agree with you totally....</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=484">jag123</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 3687<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> Mar&nbsp;05&nbsp;2012 at 11:15am<br /><br />Spider: I agree with you totally. I was in the same Police Board meeting when this was discussed. As far as taking traffic lights out and having officers inforce speeding by writing tickets;&nbsp;the problem with that is&nbsp; we don't have enough officers and they are busy with crime which is a little more important that running traffic lights. JMO]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 05 Mar 2012 11:15:17 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Did I miss something??? :       spiderjohn, I respectfully...</title>
   <link>http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3687&amp;PID=32126&amp;title=did-i-miss-something#32126</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=334">acclaro</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 3687<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> Mar&nbsp;05&nbsp;2012 at 8:42am<br /><br />spiderjohn, I respectfully disagree with every point you have made. Firstly, the unattended (by actual officer ticketing) fine that is civil, goes to the owner of the auto, not the actual person behind the wheel, unless the driver is the owner. it is unconstitutional. Virtually every state or municipality that has them, does it for one reason: to generate revenue. It is NOT a safety issue. Just this week, the Supreme Court of Colorado is hearing and prepared to make a ruling on their unconstitutionality. <br><br>Why are they bad in Middletown? Firstly, many use the spray substance that makes it impossible for a license plate to be identified by the camera, as it emits a hazy picture. I know factually many have used that substance which in turn, has led to lowered numbers of fines as well as decreased citations. The court also has had many challenges that they drop---so it cost the city time and money attempting to prosecute a civil offense that is actually a criminal misdemeanor.<br><br>Thirdly, in Middletown, as the cameras are solely about revenue generation, not public safety, the absolute worse intersection for running traffic lights is been the intersection of Rosedale and Briehel. Speeders run through that light constantly. NOT one camera has been placed on that light in all the years the cameras exist, and I know for a fact, it is the most dangerous in Middletown for running red lights and speeding. yet, you'll NEVER see a police officer patrol nor cite an individual on that stretch, as so many MHS students are there driving north/south.<br><br>It isn't big brother invading with cameras, rather, the unconstitutionality of being cited for a civil offense and hefty fine when big brother has no idea whom is even driving the auto. As for those in the intersection and driving through when yellow, which the court may throw out and reverse the actual citation, like a minor speeding offense, many times the individual will pay $125.00 even though not at fault, to save the 3-4 hrs awaiting a hearing, and losing time and 1/2 day of salary. That's the reality of the unconstitutional traffic lights that have nothing, nothing, to do with safety. &nbsp; <br><br>Cameras do nothing to prevent hazards of speeding and running through lights. Individuals with bad habits will have bad habits, and cameras aren't a deterrent. Rather, when you see a police cruiser parked, awaiting to cite you for speeding and of course, running a red light, it snaps one out of the stupor behind the wheel, while texting, thinking about the girlfriend, boyfriend, or the evening party at PAC and what to wear, into the harsh reality, you are driving a multiple ton vehicle that can kill another, that can kill you. That's what officers sitting on the side of the road do, and not cameras. Although admittedly, they make it easier for policemen to more easily sit down and guard SunCoke while being built, or sitting at Kohl's, knowing the camera is doing your job, albeit ineffectively and in violation of due process. &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>As for cross checking for Proof of Insurance/ Liability, any and all municipalities, cities, villages in Ohio, ask to have a copy of insurance over any citation. If Proof is not provided, that leads to a suspension for 90 days or greater in Ohio automatically, until proof has been shown. If you secure it afterward, your license will still be suspended, sometimes for a year. Cameras have no bearing on that enforcement, and the same occurs when a camera citation is submitted. provide proof of insurance, or your license are suspended.&nbsp; I add, this practice in Ohio on Proof Of Insurance has been in practice for at least 15 years. <br><br>In Ohio, virtually all traffic cameras are programmed appropriately with a 5 second counter from yellow light to red light, ample time to get through a yellow light without a ticket.<br><br>What's the true solution for Middletown? Remove all traffic ameras, and have police officers do their job, park by intersections, and notice driving behaviors change by seeing a real officer on the watch, than a camera. The cameras actually make it more unsafe, because there is rarely the risk of being monitored by an officer, so habits don't change. That's the negative aspect that far outweighs the revenue generation for Middletown policemen having to do nothing to monitor intersections.&nbsp; &nbsp; <br><br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:42:53 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Did I miss something??? :   spiderjohn wrote:    uhhhI...</title>
   <link>http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3687&amp;PID=32124&amp;title=did-i-miss-something#32124</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=114">VietVet</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 3687<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> Mar&nbsp;04&nbsp;2012 at 6:20pm<br /><br /> <table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><img src="forum_images/quote_box.png" title="Originally posted by spiderjohn" alt="Originally posted by spiderjohn" style="vertical-align: text-bottom;" /> <strong>spiderjohn wrote:</strong><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />uhhh<div>I don't see the traffic lights(and proper timing between signal changes) as being the issue here</div><div>simply put(again)--it comes down to poor/un-safe driving habits and anything that can be done to deter such habits</div><div> </div><div>it is a "people problem" rather than a mechanical issue</div><div>too many people don't do the right thing any more Vet.</div><div> </div><div>I also would like to see all violators cross-checked to see if they have active liability insurance</div><br /><br /></td></tr></table> <br /><br />Fair enough spider. Nice discussion. Will agree to disagree.  <img src="http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif" border="0" align="middle" /> ]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 18:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Did I miss something??? :     uhhhI don&amp;#039;t see the...</title>
   <link>http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3687&amp;PID=32122&amp;title=did-i-miss-something#32122</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=18">spiderjohn</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 3687<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> Mar&nbsp;04&nbsp;2012 at 4:45pm<br /><br />uhhh<div>I don't see the traffic lights(and proper timing between signal changes) as being the issue here</div><div>simply put(again)--it comes down to poor/un-safe driving habits and anything that can be done to deter such habits</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>it is a "people problem" rather than a mechanical issue</div><div>too many people don't do the right thing any more Vet.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I also would like to see all violators cross-checked to see if they have active liability insurance</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 16:45:34 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Did I miss something??? : &amp;#034;Extending the yellow light...</title>
   <link>http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3687&amp;PID=32117&amp;title=did-i-miss-something#32117</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=114">VietVet</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 3687<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> Mar&nbsp;04&nbsp;2012 at 3:25pm<br /><br />"Extending the yellow light timing may help somewhat, however lack of monitoring the situation will still lead to drivers speeding through red lights".<br /><br />HOW? IF YOU EXTEND THE LENGTH OF THE TIMING ON THE YELLOW LIGHT, YOU GIVE THE CAR THAT WOULD NORMALLY BE CAUGHT IN THE INTERSECTION ON A RED TIME TO CLEAR THE INTERSECTION BEFORE THE LIGHT CHANGED TO GREEN FOR THE OTHER TRAFFIC TO PROCEED. DOES IT MATTER WHETHER THE INTERSECTION IS MONITORED OR NOT? THE SITUATION IS GOING TO OCCUR MONITORED OR NOT. IT JUST SAVES THE CAR CAUGHT IN THE INTERSECTION FROM BEING BROADSIDED BY A QUICK GREEN LIGHT GOING THE OTHER WAY. <br /><br />MY POINT IS THAT THERE MAY NOT BE A NEED AT ALL FOR THESE CAMERAS IF THE LIGHTS WERE TIMED IN THE CORRECT MANNER. THE CAMERAS AREN'T GOING TO CORRECT THE UNSAFE SITUATION. THE LIGHT TIMING MIGHT. THE CAMERAS ARE JUST FOR MONEY PURPOSES. WHY DON'T WE SUGGEST A PILOT PROGRAM OF TRYING THE LONGER YELLOW LIGHT AT A PROBLEM INTERSECTION FOR A PERIOD OF TIME AND SEE IF THE NUMBERS DECREASE? (WOULD THE CHIEF ENTERTAIN THAT THOUGHT?) IF THEY DO, WOULDN'T THAT SUGGEST THAT THE TIMING WAS THE SOLUTION TO A SAFER INTERSECTION AND WE COULD DO AWAY WITH THE CAMERAS? OF COURSE, THAT WOULD CUT INTO THEIR REVENUE, WOULDN'T IT?  <img src="http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" align="middle" /> ]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 15:25:03 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Did I miss something??? :  Don&amp;#039;t agree with your logic...</title>
   <link>http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3687&amp;PID=32115&amp;title=did-i-miss-something#32115</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=18">spiderjohn</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 3687<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> Mar&nbsp;04&nbsp;2012 at 2:55pm<br /><br />Don't agree with your logic Vet<div>and here is why:</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Extending the yellow light timing may help somewhat, however lack of monitoring the situation will still lead to drivers speeding through red lights.</div><div>Revenue gained by citing dangerous driving activity is not really a negative. You are on camera committing an un-safe traffic violation endangering others.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>If our govt. has to act in this&nbsp;manner in an attempt to control dangerous behavior, then what is the loss?</div><div>The hoped outcome is better/safer driving habits. Which in turn will save lives, injuries, personal properties and police presence.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>If people aren't responsible enough to protect themselves(and eventually others), then this may be a good spot for govt. to become involved for the greater welfare of the majority who follow the laws and display safer driving habits.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Dirve in an un-safe dangerous manner, and it may cost you $$</div><div>If people don't stop these practices, their actions may cost them(and others)far more.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Very simple--drive responsibly = no problem</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>jmo</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 14:55:23 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Did I miss something??? : Spiderjohn......&amp;#034;As we continued...</title>
   <link>http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3687&amp;PID=32114&amp;title=did-i-miss-something#32114</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=114">VietVet</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 3687<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> Mar&nbsp;04&nbsp;2012 at 2:40pm<br /><br />Spiderjohn......"As we continued to discuss this issue, I gradually changed my thinking because:<br />1. Speeding through red lights at congested intersections was all too common, and extremely dangerous".<br /><br />"Initially I was opposed for the same "Big Brother" reasoning mentioned here"<br /><br />"Don't see the issue here"<br /><br />That is the issue. Too much government sticking it's nose in people's private lives just like the seat belt law, and, let's be honest here.....at least part of this program is to generate revenue for the city under the guise of safety. Again, JMO. Let's take a vote to see if the people really want this in their lives instead of having it crammed down our throats. <br /><br />IMO, the speeding through red lights could have been avoided by increasing the yellow light timing. The way the lights are set up now, the light is green and quickly turns red with no hint of yellow. Ya gotta give the car that is approaching at 45 mph a chance to clear the intersection at locations such as Breile and Roosevelt, Breile and Central and Grand and Breile. You can't have a designated speed limit of 45 on these boulevards and expect a car approaching the intersection at 45 to stop on a dime. Longer yellow light times would help the cars caught in the intersection.(or lower the speed limit to 35).It is knowing that as I approach an intersection at 45, that I am going to have a quick green to red scenario, that causes me to speed up to make it through. Either that or jam on the breaks to stop in time. Going through or jamming on the breaks are both dangerous situations. IMO, the city creates the dangerous situation of running the red lights by the fact that they have no time for caution at the intersection. Give the yellow a few more seconds at the traffic controller box. JMO]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 14:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Did I miss something??? : I was a member of the Citizens&amp;#039;...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=18">spiderjohn</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 3687<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> Mar&nbsp;04&nbsp;2012 at 1:48pm<br /><br />I was a member of the Citizens' Advisory Board to the police dept. when this concept was brought forth.<DIV>Initially I was opposed for the same "Big Brother" reasoning mentioned here, alongwith the structure of the appeals process.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>As we continued to discuss this issue, I gradually changed my thinking because:</DIV><DIV>1. Speeding through red lights at congested intersections was all too common, and extremely dangerous.</DIV><DIV>2. Manpower was not going to be available to monitor the situation efficiently.</DIV><DIV>3. The potential positives of this program far out-weighed the negatives imo.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Since passage, violations have decreased, and also serious accidents at monitored intersections.</DIV><DIV>Violators are issued citations--have a fair appeals process(if you are not completely beyond the stop line, then you will be exonerated), and quire simply, the act of speeding through red lights is very dangerous to the drivers and innocents involved.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>People are stopping at red lights, and accident #s have decreased.</DIV><DIV>A "win" situation for everyone.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Can speed violations also be given?</DIV><DIV>Very easily by simply flipping on a few switches and program changes.</DIV><DIV>Are these readings accurate?</DIV><DIV>I don't know.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Safer intersections and driving habits benefit everyone.</DIV><DIV>The lives saved could well be yours or acquantances or anyone.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Don't see the issue here.</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 13:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>Did I miss something??? : Today&amp;#039;s Journal...  Red-light...</title>
   <link>http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3687&amp;PID=32110&amp;title=did-i-miss-something#32110</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=114">VietVet</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 3687<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> Mar&nbsp;04&nbsp;2012 at 6:26am<br /><br />Today's Journal...<br /><br />Red-light camera citations on decline<br />The cameras also helped bring in more than $800,000 in fines<br /><br />I LIKE THIS ONE FROM LES LANDEN......<br /><br />“(Traffic lights) are designed to try to prevent traffic accidents, to enhance the safety of the community,” Middletown Law Director Les Landen said. “We are using technology as we use it in other areas of law enforcement in an attempt to enforce the law.”<br /><br />WHAT A LOAD OF HORSECRAP LANDEN. ENFORCING THE LAW......YOU MEAN LIKE THE CITY ORDINANCES AND SUCH.  <img src="http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif" border="0" align="middle" />  <img src="http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" align="middle" /> YOU ENFORCE THE LAW (OR TWIST IT)WHEN IT IS CONVENIENT TO YOU AND THE CITY AND BENEFITS YOUR CAUSE. IN THIS CASE IT IS A REVENUE ENHANCER JUST AS JACKING UP THE WATER AND SEWER RATES AND ATTEMPTS TO JACK UP THE CITY INCOME TAX RATES ARE. YOU CAN'T GET REVENUE MONEY THE WAY ALL OTHER TOWNS GET IT- THROUGH JOB CREATION, SO YOU ATTEMPT TO BLEED EVERYONE IN THIS TOWN DRY BY INITIATING PROGRAMS LIKE THIS.  <br /><br />John C. Sennet, of Middletown, would like to see residents place the camera program on the ballot.<br />“You’re guilty until proven innocent,” he said of the requirement to pay the fine before challenging it in court.<br />“It would be nice for council to do what the people want, and if the majority of the people don’t want them, then let’s get rid of them.”<br /><br />AGREE MR. SENNET.]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 04 Mar 2012 06:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
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