Middletown Forum : Lakota Cuts http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/ This is an XML content feed of; Middletown Forum : Other School Issues : Lakota Cuts Tue, 06 Oct 2026 02:43:35 +0000 Sat, 05 May 2012 10:26:07 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 10.12 360 www.middletownusa.com/forum/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=4376 Middletown Forum http://middletownusa.com/images/blog-logo.jpg http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/ Lakota Cuts : Gentlemen I’m sure years ago... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32846&title=lakota-cuts#32846 Author: Vivian Moon
Subject: 4376
Posted: May 05 2012 at 10:26am

Gentlemen
    I’m sure years ago that you have heard your family state that a child had “bad blood” or was “born bad”.  It took me many years to understand what the elders were really saying.
    Today we use different terms to describe these children depending upon their age, ADD, ADHD, ODD or BiPolar. Mental illness can start at a very young age. In later years the majority of these same children will be diagnosed as BiPolar. If you look into their family background you may find a parent that suffers from mental illness.
    Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) seems to show up in Junior High School age children. No rules or amount of discipline will work on these children. The schools nor the teachers can fix a child with mental illness.
    Without medication and a lot of hard work by the parents these same defiant teenagers will end up filling our courts and prisons.
    So is it a health issue or an educational issue that we need to solve? Or maybe it’s both.    
   

]]> Sat, 05 May 2012 10:26:07 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32846&title=lakota-cuts#32846 Lakota Cuts : Vet, I was just kidding you, I... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32844&title=lakota-cuts#32844 Author: acclaro
Subject: 4376
Posted: May 04 2012 at 6:49pm

Vet, I was just kidding you, I totally get your point and agree. But in fairness to the administrators and the Board, they have limited ability to discipline besides expulsion and detention. When they expel, they hurt their revenue stream, when they give detention, for a problem kid, who cares----they don't. A vicious cycle.

My father was the great Santini, I got paddled often, and rarely, for good cause. I never paddled my two children ever. Positive reinforcement works, smacking a kid doesn't, and one good, caring teacher can make the difference in anyone's life.
]]> Fri, 04 May 2012 18:49:50 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32844&title=lakota-cuts#32844 Lakota Cuts : acclaro wrote:But there is... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32843&title=lakota-cuts#32843 Author: VietVet
Subject: 4376
Posted: May 04 2012 at 5:14pm

Originally posted by acclaro acclaro wrote:

But there is one difference. Soldiers are trained to kill, to respond without question to an order, to survive and for their platoon to survive. Moreover,, students are not trained to fight. They are also restricted within any school district in Ohio as to how discipline, including paddling, etc., can be used (if it can be used- I believe it has been all but abandoned."While agreeing with you discipline has its place, as does tough love, it is virtully impossible to implement it in today's legislative;y "soft'" public school limitations.



Whoops! Now wait a minute acclaro. You are generalizing on the military, suggesting in your post that "soldiers are trained to kill". Might apply to certain MOS's in the Marines, Army Rangers and Green Beret and the SEALS in the Navy, but, in general, the military offers training in "non-killing professions such as the medical field (to work in the base hospitals), computer programming and repair, Military Police work that makes a fine transition to law enforcement in civilian life, high tech training such as flying Predators by computer and upscale guidance equipment, air traffic controller training from the Air Force and many other AFSC's that don't include killing. All of us know the military has become high tech and is in touch with the modern day world. Again, I contend there are similarities between public education and the military and that a scaled-down, less harsh version of the military would work in the schools. You are correct in your statement that the world of education is run with a soft/kinder/gentler/"make the kids candy-a-----" mentality.......and what has that gotten us to date? The system has become a joke to the kids because the system has eliminated real consequences for their actions. The are laughing at the system and the "adults" that have set it up don't have a clue why there is disrespect for authority. JMO ]]> Fri, 04 May 2012 17:14:27 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32843&title=lakota-cuts#32843 Lakota Cuts : But there is one difference. Soldiers... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32840&title=lakota-cuts#32840 Author: acclaro
Subject: 4376
Posted: May 04 2012 at 7:25am

But there is one difference. Soldiers are trained to kill, to respond without question to an order, to survive and for their platoon to survive. Moreover,, students are not trained to fight. They are also restricted within any school district in Ohio as to how discipline, including paddling, etc., can be used (if it can be used- I believe it has been all but abandoned."

While agreeing with you discipline has its place, as does tough love, it is virtully impossible to implement it in today's legislative;y "soft'" public school limitations.
]]> Fri, 04 May 2012 07:25:07 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32840&title=lakota-cuts#32840 Lakota Cuts : acclaro: "Public education... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32837&title=lakota-cuts#32837 Author: VietVet
Subject: 4376
Posted: May 03 2012 at 9:07pm

acclaro:

"Public education is not boot camp".

No, not in the purest sense.

Ahh, but there are similarities. Both have people attending from all walks of life. Both are conducted as "institutions" with large numbers who gather generating large multi-faceted problems. Both depend on control to function. (although I question the control of the current school climate as opposed to the old climate). Both target instructional means to accomplish the training required to fulfill the end result. Both rely on motivation and the reward/punishment system. Both take people from all walks of life and attempt to condition them to learn a common focus. Both attempt to achieve success through their efforts, albeit dissimilar in certain procedures to attain that success. Both deal with different levels of the economic and social status. JMO]]> Thu, 03 May 2012 21:07:19 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32837&title=lakota-cuts#32837 Lakota Cuts : No child left behind accomplished... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32836&title=lakota-cuts#32836 Author: acclaro
Subject: 4376
Posted: May 03 2012 at 6:32pm

No child left behind accomplished what?

Yes/ No----John Kerry nuances.

Reform school and junior military camps have their place being kindred spirits to boot camp. Public education is not boot camp.
]]> Thu, 03 May 2012 18:32:11 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32836&title=lakota-cuts#32836 Lakota Cuts : Marcia Andrew wrote:Vet, I... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32835&title=lakota-cuts#32835 Author: VietVet
Subject: 4376
Posted: May 03 2012 at 3:47pm

Originally posted by Marcia Andrew Marcia Andrew wrote:

Vet, I hear what you are saying about "old school" ways. Those ways did appear to work then, for most students. But, times have changed and students have changed. Research on "best practices," what works in underperforming, socioeconomically challenged school districts, shows that schools need to connect with students, to build relationships with the students, before we can ever hope to teach them. Sadly, a fair number of students have no positive relationships with adults outside of school. They won't respect authority and follow expected rules of behavior when they have no history of trusting adults. And, "building a relationship" does not mean being their buddy, necessarily, but showing that the adult cares about that kid as an individual, and, because they care, has high expectations for how they will behave and perform academically.


Ms. Andrew, consider this as an alternative relating to our discussion.

In military basic training (doesn't matter the branch of service), there is an accumulation of many different types of people representing as diverse a background as any found in your school system. From farm boy to inner city gang member to California "surfer dude". Their activity and life-changing situation (converting them from "do as I please" civilian attitude, to a "you'll do as your told, when you're told world) is handled through being manipulated by the drill instructor's techniques and by listening to and doing exactly as trained. Otherwise, you will live in a world of hurt (other word used here). It is a classic rewards/penalties behavior system. This system has been around for decades and is time-proven for effectiveness in converting large numbers toward a single behavior pattern. There is no coddling, no mercy and no "being a friend" between the troops and the drill instructor. Yet, at the end of the basic training period, the once out of control behavior has been eliminated. The once shy, non-aggressive, easily bullied person is taught a lesson in self-esteem and given a more aggressive attitude and, in general, each person has grown up a little for the effort made to motivate them. Again, all done with discipline, aggressive life-altering environments and hardly a friendly relationship between student and teacher. Just pointing out, positive results can be accomplished by taking the hard-nosed approach rather that being "kinder/gentler" or a friend to the students. IMO, sometimes we coddle to younger generation too much and it only results in generating weaker personalities to cope with the real world. JMO ]]> Thu, 03 May 2012 15:47:08 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32835&title=lakota-cuts#32835 Lakota Cuts : Vet, I hear what you are saying... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32834&title=lakota-cuts#32834 Author: Marcia Andrew
Subject: 4376
Posted: May 03 2012 at 1:21pm

Vet, I hear what you are saying about "old school" ways. Those ways did appear to work then, for most students. But, times have changed and students have changed. Research on "best practices," what works in underperforming, socioeconomically challenged school districts, shows that schools need to connect with students, to build relationships with the students, before we can ever hope to teach them. Sadly, a fair number of students have no positive relationships with adults outside of school. They won't respect authority and follow expected rules of behavior when they have no history of trusting adults. And, "building a relationship" does not mean being their buddy, necessarily, but showing that the adult cares about that kid as an individual, and, because they care, has high expectations for how they will behave and perform academically.]]> Thu, 03 May 2012 13:21:15 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32834&title=lakota-cuts#32834 Lakota Cuts : Ms. Andrew: "We may be able... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32833&title=lakota-cuts#32833 Author: VietVet
Subject: 4376
Posted: May 03 2012 at 11:10am

Ms. Andrew: "We may be able to restructure the way services are delivered, so that we have more custodians, but who also perform maintenance services"

SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA TO ME.

Ms. Andrew: "Besides the humane point of treating our staff fairly, there is a benefit to the district of keeping long-term staff who know and care for our students"

AHH, THE HUMAN ELEMENT IN THE WORK ENVIRONMENT. DON'T ALWAYS HAVE THAT IN CORPORATE AMERICA. A "CORPORATE WORLD" COMPANY LIKE P&G (OR INTERNATIONAL PAPER) DOESN'T CARE TO THAT DEGREE ABOUT THE EMPLOYEE......JUST THE BOTTOM LINE. PEOPLE WHO HAVE, OR ARE WORKING FOR THEM, PROBABLY, AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER, HAVE FELT THIS WAY. "KEEPING LONG TERM STAFF" IS A DETRIMENT FOR CORPORATE AMERICA. THEY WANT YOU OUT AND RETIRED. PAYING YOU THE BIG BUCKS AND RETIREMENT ACCUMULATED OVER MANY YEARS (AND A MONEY DRAIN TO THEM), WHEN THEY COULD HIRE A YOUNG PERSON, MOLD THEM IN THEIR WAY (ALSO CALLED "PROCTORIZING THEM") AND SPEND MUCH LESS MONEY ON WAGES AND RETIREMENT.

Ms. Andrew: "Especially the day-time staff who are in our buildings when the kids are, many of them build relationships with the students over time".

HOW IMPORTANT IS BUILDING A RELATIONSHIP WITH A STUDENT? THE STUDENT IS GOING TO BE THERE FOR A BRIEF PERIOD OF TIME BEFORE MOVING ON. IS IT MORE IMPORTANT TO TEACH AND PREPARE THEM FOR THE WORKING WORLD, OR TO BE THEIR FRIEND? NOT TO BE CALLOUS HERE, BUT IT SEEMS THAT THE "FEELINGS/BEING A BUDDY" PORTION OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM IS TRUMPING THE MEAT AND POTATOES PART OF IT. YOU'LL HAVE TO EXCUSE ME FOR BEING OLD SCHOOL WHEN THE EDUCATORS EFFECTIVELY TAUGHT, EXPECTATIONS WHERE MADE CLEAR, DISCIPLINE WAS IN PLACE, AND RESULTS ATTAINED IN A STRUCTURED ENVIRONMENT WHERE EDUCATORS DID NOT BUILD RELATIONSHIPS AS THEY DO NOW, BUT RATHER "KEPT A DISTANCE" BETWEEN STUDENT AND TEACHER. IT WORKED BACK THEN. NOT SO SURE THE NEW WAYS ARE AS EFFECTIVE. JMO

]]> Thu, 03 May 2012 11:10:40 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32833&title=lakota-cuts#32833 Lakota Cuts : Vet, looking at industry standards,... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32830&title=lakota-cuts#32830 Author: Marcia Andrew
Subject: 4376
Posted: May 03 2012 at 9:46am

Vet, looking at industry standards, we may have not enough custodians but more maintenance and utility workers than we need. We may be able to restructure the way services are delivered, so that we have more custodians, but who also perform maintenance services. Besides the humane point of treating our staff fairly, there is a benefit to the district of keeping long-term staff who know and care for our students. Especially the day-time staff who are in our buildings when the kids are, many of them build relationships with the students over time.]]> Thu, 03 May 2012 09:46:59 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4376&PID=32830&title=lakota-cuts#32830