Middletown Forum : Santa Claus parade

Santa Claus parade : acclaro wrote: AK Steel...

Sun, 15 Feb 2015 21:05:05 +0000

Author: Trotwood
Subject: 5908
Posted: Feb 15 2015 at 9:05pm

acclaro wrote:

AK Steel left Middletown as a top priority because the strike at the Middletown Works was such, they did not want to tether their corporate identity and reputation to a city getting such bad press, and a site getting bad press associated with a labor dispute. The other reasons cited are correct. AK knew years prior to many, what direction Middletown was headed----south, they wished to head north in reputation.

TROTWOOD, if Middletown had no success in the years prior to the current effort in building downtown, ergo, the years it had a city mall with a roof, the years the roof was removed, why do you state it is important now? The city decline in population began 15 years ago, when the city was in its phased approach to build downtown a 2nd or 3rd time..

Demographic changes. Wealth changes. Mindset changes.

Pre-recession, this economy was being fueled in large part by a seemingly endless demand for new housing. Obviously those days are over. Not only are people not buying new houses, they are actively wanting to decrease their responsibilities by buying smaller houses.

Why? Partly because there's a lot less middle class wealth, and people cannot afford to buy as much as before. See my response to Vivian.

Also, partly because of demographic changes. The newest generation coming up the ranks, the Millennials, is by far the most racially diverse generation ever seen in the US. Non-white individuals overwhelmingly prefer to live in urban environments. And often non-white individuals lack the capital and desire to buy new houses in platted developments. They are looking for community in a traditional neighborhood.

So Acclaro, if done right, Middletown could become the desirable place to live once again. It's all a matter of putting in the right amenities, the right atmosphere, and the right incentives in place to get private businesses to do their part. School reform is necessary too, at least to be on par with Hamilton schools (which are doing quite well at the moment). It can happen with the right leadership and the right strategy.

Santa Claus parade : VietVet wrote:Trotwood:"As...

Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:58:01 +0000

Author: Trotwood
Subject: 5908
Posted: Feb 15 2015 at 8:58pm

VietVet wrote:

Trotwood:

"As proof, I'll ask - how many employees who work at AK and can afford to live outside Middletown choose to do so?"

I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBERS OF AK EMPLOYEES LIVING OUTSIDE THE CITY BUT I CAN GUESS WHY THEY WOULD CHOOSE TO DO SO.

I KNOW YOU ARE REFERENCING POLLUTION HERE AS THE REASON WHY AK EMPLOYEES WHO CAN AFFORD TO LIVE ELSEWHERE CHOOSE TO DO SO.

HOWEVER, IMO, IF A SIZABLE NUMBER OF AK EMPLOYEES CHOOSE TO LIVE OUTSIDE MIDDLETOWN, IT HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH POLLUTION AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE POOR SCHOOLS, VERY FEW ENTICING NEIGHBORHOODS REMAINING, HIGH CRIME, POOR IMAGE, POCKETS OF GHETTO DEVELOPMENT, AND OVERALL GLOOMY MALAISE/INEPT OPERATION WITHIN THE CITY. IMO, POLLUTION PROBABLY WOULDN'T EVEN MAKE THE TOP TEN LIST OF REASONS TO NOT LOCATE TO MIDDLETOWN. I BELIEVE YOU ARE GIVNG THIS POLLUTION THING WAY TOO MUCH CREDIT AS THE CITY CULPRIT FOR TURNOFFS REGARDING THIS CITY.

Trotwood:

"Want more proof?
AK's HQ is now in West Chester, and one of the big reasons is because West Chester is closer to where AK's actual corporate employees live. It's also considered to be a more "desirable" community. I would assume the lack of pollution is a factor in this assumption"

YOU ARE CORRECT ON THIS. BOTH AK AND THERMO BLACK CLAWSON (I WORKED FOR THEM AT THE TIME), ANOTHER LONGTIME MIDDLETOWN INDUSTRIAL INSTITUTION, BOTH LEFT MIDDLETOWN FOR A SIMILAR REASON........THEY WERE CONCERNED WITH COMPANY IMAGE. NEITHER WANTED TO BRING IN CUSTOMERS TO THE MIDDLETOWN ENVIRONMENT. BLACK CLAWSON MOVED THEIR OFFICES TO MASON-MONTGOMERY RD.....MUCH MORE MODERN AND DESIRABLE AS TO IMAGE AND PROFESSIONALISM. SAME WITH AK TO WEST CHESTER. UPSCALE BEATS GHETTO SCOURGE ANYTIME AS TO IMPRESSING CUSTOMERS. AGAIN. YOU CAN THANK YOUR MIDDLETOWN CITY LEADERS OVER THE LAST 3 DECADES FOR THE DEMISE OF THE BUSINESS CLIMATE HERE IN TOWN. THEY SAT BACK AND LET IT HAPPEN WHILE HAVING A WINDOW SEAT TO OBSERVE THE COLLAPSE. INEPTNESS RUNNING THE ASYLUM.

I agree, for many pollution isn't consciously considered when moving to a location.

But let me turn it around - would YOU, if someone tomorrow gave you $500k for your house and you accepted the offer, turn around and buy a new house that met the requirements for your $500k dream home, right next to Mt. Rumpke in Colerain?

Pollution is an issue that should not be discounted. Sure, maybe if you live in the northeast end of Middletown it wouldn't be as big of a deal, but all of these "trouble spots" - the Section 8 apartments around Leffferson and Briel, the trailer parks around Excello, the neighborhood surrounding the former Amanda and Oneida Elementary schools of Oxford State Rd. - those sure as heck don't have high-dollar housing. Or a high property value, standing as houses or demolished for another use.

If Middletown is going to turn around, ALL of it is going to have to turn around.

Santa Claus parade : Vivian Moon wrote:Ahhh, Trotwood, how...

Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:50:14 +0000

Author: Trotwood
Subject: 5908
Posted: Feb 15 2015 at 8:50pm

Vivian Moon wrote:

Ahhh, Trotwood,how I love the minds of young people.
    I wish we had hours to sit anddiscuss the history of Middletownand Urban Planning but we don’t.
    Over the years I have seen hundredsof plans for “Designer Neighborhood”. Many of these early perfect neighborhoodswere designed and or built by the very wealthy of heavy industry high on thehill overlooking their companies and where their employees lived. Some weretruly company towns, entire communities built by the company around the factories for their employees.
    Everyone wants to live in one ofthese perfect neighborhoods as long as that nasty factory or the city dump isnot in their backyard. Remember that even Romehad its yuppie neighborhoods.
    So Trotwood as you can see the classsystem is still alive and well.
If the current businesses in downtown wantlocals to support their businesses then they must offer what the community wantsto purchase at a price they are willing to pay…it’s just that plain and simple.

You have a good point.... building a better city requires having people who are invested in its future and are willing to put in the work to see it succeed. Poor/struggling people have neither the time nor the energy to do this. Or worse yet, these people actively demoralize the character of a city by committing illegal actions and being hostile towards others, etc. There's a million different ways to basically say that people who can afford to live away from undesirables will.

But keep in mind that I say people who can AFFORD to live away from undesirables will. Who can afford to? People like yourselves, honestly - older, established or retired Baby Boomers (or even Greatest Generation members...) that have had their career.

Millennials don't have any of those luxuries. We can barely get loans or jobs that pay above minimum wage even if we have technical training, or an associate's degree, or a bachelor's/master's in liberal arts. Even some entry-level engineering positions only pay $35-$40k a year. Labor no longer has the value it used to even 20 years ago.

So where is labor in demand? $9/hr STNA's. Minimum wage Foodservice workers. $10/hr Hourly distribution center employees. And so on. Millennials don't have the money for suburbia.

So where will they come? Places with more amenities, more community, more connectivity. Because why buy when you can rent?

Middletown can pull off a transformation, most everything is in place. The biggest issue I see is AK, which yeah you all poke fun at me for but ask any Realtor or city planning consultant and they would tell you the same. There's a reason why Hamilton's urban movement is gaining traction in ways Middletown's isn't. And no I would place the blame on city government on this one.

Santa Claus parade : processor wrote:Trotwood,In...

Sun, 15 Feb 2015 20:36:53 +0000

Author: Trotwood
Subject: 5908
Posted: Feb 15 2015 at 8:36pm

processor wrote:

Trotwood,
In my opinion AK moved their headquarters to West Chester for four main reasons.
1. There is no income tax in West Chester
2. There were few amenities in Middletown for entertaining customers and the office was not in a pretty area
3. West Chester was closer to where executive management lives (east side of Cincinnati) and wasn't too far for all of the employees who still live in Middletown and the local area.
4. The executive management lost confidence in city government

The biggest reasons were convenience for executive management and no income taxes again for executive management. I know many AK corporate people and don't know any who live in West Chester.

Pollution had about ZERO to do with it.

Better late than never, right? Sorry about the reply delay. I'll make a few points:

Processor, you bring up excellent points. These are all probably true, not formally provable but I think we all could agree they would merit consideration if we sat on AK's Board of Directors.

And this feeds into a larger discussion, one I think is summarized well by Fortune Magazine in these articles:

http://fortune.com/2014/07/07/taxes-offshore-dodge/

http://fortune.com/2014/08/28/is-burger-kings-move-to-canada-a-raw-deal-for-u-s-taxpayers/

Or even by NCR's departure from Dayton, chronicled by the NY Times here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/25/us/25land.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Again, a discussion way outside the scope of a Santa Claus parade/ bringing life back into Middletown OH.

Santa Claus parade : No doubt that the miserable condition...

Thu, 11 Dec 2014 14:32:45 +0000

Author: processor
Subject: 5908
Posted: Dec 11 2014 at 2:32pm

No doubt that the miserable condition of Middletown contributed to the move. That was #2 on my list.

Santa Claus parade : Processor I have heard executives...

Thu, 11 Dec 2014 14:02:11 +0000

Author: Vivian Moon
Subject: 5908
Posted: Dec 11 2014 at 2:02pm

Processor
I have heard executives remark that they were ashamed to bring visitors or clientsto the Main Office because of the over all run down condition of Middletown from I-75 to Curtis Street.
They joked about needing to flying them in under the cover of darkness.

Santa Claus parade : I don't disagree any manager...

Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:54:55 +0000

Author: acclaro
Subject: 5908
Posted: Dec 11 2014 at 1:54pm

I don't disagree any manager or employer would not want to take advantage of West Chester's dual 0 tax rate for payroll and residential living. But, Kurt Reich, who arguably is the no 2 exec as EVP of supply chain, procurement, lived in Middletown for years in the historic house in what is now the Highlands area and Nix is head of process innovation, and lives in town. Taxes contributed, but was not driver, reputation was, and ability to bring in new talent (younger management- engineers), that wanted better tax base and white collar base. IBM also pushed for move associated with ease of attracting high tech employees for the older employees they brought over from Armco when they began outsource deal.

Santa Claus parade : Income taxes were one of the MAIN...

Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:22:08 +0000

Author: processor
Subject: 5908
Posted: Dec 11 2014 at 1:22pm

Income taxes were one of the MAIN reasons. Indian Hill has a .6% tax versus 1.75% in Middletown. On $3,000,000 it's a difference of nearly $35,000. Some of the exec's live in a township where there is no tax.

This is one thing that really bugged me about the AK HQ move. I'm convinced that a lot of the reason for moving was for the exec's convenience and not necessarily for the good of the business.

I'm also told though that the upper management was encouraged not to live in Middletown so that they wouldn't get to know personally many of the people at the plant and this way wouldn't let emotions get in the way of business decisions. I don't subscribe to this philosophy but know many who do.

Santa Claus parade : The problem on local tax as a...

Wed, 10 Dec 2014 16:43:06 +0000

Author: acclaro
Subject: 5908
Posted: Dec 10 2014 at 4:43pm

The problem on local tax as a basis for a move would be it would only amount to a material benefit if the city he/she lives, did not claim a tax rate. If one did not reside in West Chester, you'd pay your locale taxes, if they were required. I believe Indian Hills does have local taxes. As Middletown has taxes, those that work in West Chester still pay the 1.75%. Therefore, taxes were a distant reason IMO.

Santa Claus parade : processor wrote:Trotwood,In...

Wed, 10 Dec 2014 16:25:03 +0000

Author: swohio75
Subject: 5908
Posted: Dec 10 2014 at 4:25pm

Income tax my guess was one of the biggest reasons.

I remember Dickie Wardrop suing the city of Middletown on what he was required to pay because he was trying to claim days worked outside of Middletown (at other plants, offices, suppliers) should not have been included in calculating wages in which to levy the city's income tax against.