Middletown Forum : Hamilton's Catalytic Downtown Projects http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/ This is an XML content feed of; Middletown Forum : Community Revitalization : Hamilton's Catalytic Downtown Projects Mon, 05 Oct 2026 14:28:48 +0000 Fri, 03 Aug 2018 08:29:36 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 10.12 360 www.middletownusa.com/forum/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=6803 Middletown Forum http://middletownusa.com/images/blog-logo.jpg http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/ Hamilton's Catalytic Downtown Projects : Marty Kohler. Wow, there's... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50443&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50443 Author: VietVet
Subject: 6803
Posted: Aug 03 2018 at 8:29am

Marty Kohler. Wow, there's a name from the past that is haunting. Glad to see he is out of the picture. Did so much damage to this city using his little tactics along the way. Got a kick on his "self important" attitude on the little Architecture board trying to tell downtown property owners how their homes should look. Another black eye for the Gilleland Administration I believe. ]]> Fri, 03 Aug 2018 08:29:36 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50443&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50443 Hamilton's Catalytic Downtown Projects : Kohler purposely decreased traffic... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50434&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50434 Author: Mike_Presta
Subject: 6803
Posted: Aug 02 2018 at 4:11pm

Kohler purposely decreased traffic through downtown and implemented measures that would PREVENT high traffic there.

It was part of his "traffic calming" brainstorm to make the area "pedestrian friendly".

]]> Thu, 02 Aug 2018 16:11:46 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50434&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50434 Hamilton's Catalytic Downtown Projects : The S. Main St. folks will have... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50304&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50304 Author: VietVet
Subject: 6803
Posted: Jul 02 2018 at 1:13pm

The S. Main St. folks will have their way with Adkins and council. The Mulligans will see to that. The whole downtown money pit is designed to protect the S. Main St. neighborhood from property value loss. The city is willing to take all of the taxpayer's money and invest it into the downtown area to protect a few self important individuals who occupy the old historic district. They will be listened to. They always have been. It is a "Mulligan" kind of town we live in folks. Whatever they want, they get......and the rest of us and our wants and needs are ignored. SOP in Middletown these days.

The article says 15 stakeholders along S. Main St. have petitioned to reduce traffic lanes. That is enough to make it happen. I like the statement that these people see the downtown area as "vibrant". Embellished Horsesh--!!!! (Horsefeathers!!!!) I have no clue what they are seeing to label it as "vibrant". Apparently, we have different levels of "vibrant". ]]> Mon, 02 Jul 2018 13:13:13 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50304&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50304 Hamilton's Catalytic Downtown Projects : Posted: Jun182018 at 1:21pm... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50300&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50300 Author: Analytical
Subject: 6803
Posted: Jul 02 2018 at 8:41am

Posted: Jun 18 2018 at 1:21pm by Buddhalite
All fine and dandy - of course Hamilton's downtown district has between five and eight TIMES the daily traffic per
ODOT and the Engineer's office.

The thing is that this is the kind of stuff that Middletown can't support downtown.  We've not got the infrastructure to
pull off the necessary 50k traffic in these areas to sustain such properties.

No major thoroughfares = no major investment. 

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Planning/TechServ/traffic/Traffic_Survey_Flow_Maps/2011_Survey_Flow_
Maps/But_tsr_2011.pdf

Posted: Jun 19 2018 at 12:52am by Analytical
BUDDHA -- Did you mean to say daily traffic counts of 50,000 vehicles are necessary for the Central
Avenue "downtown corridor" to sustain any property revitalization?  It's near impossible to fathom that level
of traffic safely and efficiently plying east and west along Central Avenue.
Posted: Jun 19 2018 at 10:11am by Buddhalite
NELSON -- What I said is that per DOT stats and traffic flow - Downtown Hamilton has a daily traffic of over 50k -
while parts of downtown Middletown barely register on the traffic flow map.

You see - you can turn the old high school into affordable housing (it would be a nightmare to do so and it would
take WAY more investment than tearing it down and building a brand new high-rise in its place.  There's no one
running over there thinking they're going to do anything with it.  Why?  (What empirical evidence do you have to
support this opinion)?

There's a problem that Downtown has.....it's traffic.  And frankly, it has nothing to do with what is or isn't there to
attract anything - it's just flat out traffic.

Yes - all that development in Hamilton is great - but there's 50k cars a day running past all of it...and there's
minutes away access to liberty, bridgwater falls, fairfield, etc.

Again - the whole issue with downtown was letting that highway go so far east of town that it obliterated that
section of town.  Let's be honest - if we moved city hall to the east end....what would happen to downtown?  (Bob,
it was the Federal Highway Administration and not the City of Middletown that determined the final
right-of-way location for the construction of I-75 

If we moved all the city offices and city employees and the city divisions to the east end - would there even be a
downtown Middletown?

I am a free market guy - and the answer is that if the market will bear it - private money will come running.  If we
have to coax private money to invest - it's a bad deal all around.

I'm not against redevelopment - I'm against bad development.  This is why all the other projects you like to harp
about here (not a very civil or accurate comment, Bob) on the boards are so dangerous.....in order to
convince people to invest we give away the farm....then they start counting the cost and realize that the project was
insolvent from the get.

Those who have been willing to invest private money have and many have failed miserably - many to the point the
prjects never get off the ground - and those that do, well, I've been spending more and more time downtown - those
places can't be long for throwing in the towel based upon the people in the establishments at peak times (even
during festivals and events!)
Some recent food for thought for you, Bob.  Most people are inclined to trust the analysis and recommendations of professional transportation planners and affected business/property owners than anyone's personal conjecture!


Middletown group petitions for fewer traffic lanes along downtown street

March 27, 2018
By Ed Richter
Middletown Journal-News

MIDDLETOWN — 
A group of downtown stakeholders sent a petition to Middletown city officials seeking lane reductions and other traffic calming efforts on South Main Street to make it more friendly for pedestrians and bike riders.
The 15 stakeholders representing 19 properties along South Main Street said in their petition that they see the future of the downtown area as a vibrant and lively space supporting freedom of movement safe for pedestrian traffic.
“As Downtown Middletown citizens, property and business owners we are urging our leaders to act now to reduce the number of traffic lanes on Main Street in downtown to one lane each way north and south, using additional street area for: on street parking, loading/drop zones and a bike share path,” the petition said.
The group forwarded a copy of the petition to this news outlet.
The stakeholders said the recently completed Downtown Middletown Strategic Master Plan recommends that street calming measures be incorporated to slow and regulate vehicular traffic through downtown.
“Main Street in downtown has experienced redevelopment activity in recent years that has and will significantly increase pedestrian activity and the need for parking, bike share routes, pedestrian drop zones and loading zones,” the petition said.
The area of South Main Street targeted is between the foot bridge going into Smith Park at the northern point and south to the intersection with First Avenue.
City Manager Doug Adkins said the petition came to him for action and that City Council has seen it.
However, Adkins said it is just a concept so far and that the petition would be revisited when the city begins the downtown piece of the its new transportation plan that will cover all modes of transportation.
Adkins told this news outlet that the city hopes to use public works to clear out some of the wooded area behind the Hope House this spring and, if funds become available, design a new bike path between downtown and the River Center currently under construction by MetroParks of Butler County.
As part of his March 7 response to a petitioner, Adkins said work on the transportation portion of the city’s overall master plan will start in the fourth quarter and there is $75,000 in 2018 budget to start this process. He said additional funding may be required in the 2019 budget to fully lay out these transportation initiatives.
“We’re already on track to do what you are asking, but we will need several more months to be ready to kick off this piece,” Adkins said. “As we get closer to implementation of the transportation plan process, we’ll certainly circle back to downtown businesses and the Main Street community to add their input to the process.”
]]> Mon, 02 Jul 2018 08:41:48 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50300&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50300 Hamilton's Catalytic Downtown Projects : Vet,Good idea starting with the... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50283&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50283 Author: processor
Subject: 6803
Posted: Jun 25 2018 at 3:05pm

Vet,
Good idea starting with the School Board.  They may have already run this down and could share their info with you...saving you some time.  I'm glad you plan on talking with them.

Years ago this was talked about and the issues that Mike brought up were some of the main drivers towards having to tear it down.
]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2018 15:05:51 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50283&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50283 Hamilton's Catalytic Downtown Projects : Not complaining here processor.... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50282&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50282 Author: VietVet
Subject: 6803
Posted: Jun 25 2018 at 2:58pm

Not complaining here processor. Just trying to talk through a scenario that may save the Miller Gym. Thank you for your suggestions. Was going to go to a school board meeting to talk to them about their intentions and the possibility of following up with any sources that may be interested..........

then,

Mike posted and shared some very valid points on the cost of replacing the HVAC and making the facility ADA compliant. Just wondering, since the last game was played there a year of so ago, why the gym wasn't made compliant before the closure and if it was never compliant, why? Being a public facility, I thought, by law, it had to accommodate the ADA laws. Anyone?

Guess the issues brought forth by Mike may be the nail in the coffin as to re-purposing the gym. Too bad. It has history and some quality built into it to salvage it. Lord knows, there has been more than enough of Middletown's past demolished during the last three decades with some demolition deserved and some in question.

We all know there is no one with 15 million who is eager to save the gym. Hell, no one has stepped forward with their own money to save any of Middletown's buildings........except the city government using YOUR tax dollars to fund THEIR private owner friends. That has been well documented within these pages.

Which brings to mind the following.......

Soooo, how about it city leaders. You bought the CG&E, First National Bank, Goetz Tower and the old Barnitz Bank buildings in the Thatcher estate package to save those buildings. You loaned your buddy Robinette taxpayer money to try and salvage the Rose building. You gave your buddy Grau the Manchester for a dollar after buying it and not being able to sell it to save that icon. The Duncan Oil deal ring a bell on our money usage? How about offering the school board some money to save the Miller Gym? IMO, it would be no different than the real estate deals you have made with the school board in the past would it? Why would the Miller Gym be any different?]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2018 14:58:15 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50282&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50282 Hamilton's Catalytic Downtown Projects : There are a couple of issues of... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50281&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50281 Author: Mike_Presta
Subject: 6803
Posted: Jun 25 2018 at 2:32pm

There are a couple of issues of which those who want to save the gym might not be aware:

1.  HV&AC:  The gym's HV&AC is piped over from the antiquated main system that serves the rest of the school and it is not feasible to save that system when the school is demolished. The cost of a new HV&AC system to serve the gym alone would likely be a deal breaker as it would add years to the ROI of any of the scenarios that have been suggested.

2.  ADA:  If the gym were to be remodeled to the extent required to serve as a stand-alone facility, it would have to meet the requirements of the Americans with Disabilities Act.  This would add another big wad of dough to the costs that many of you may not be considering.

I am not trying to argue, either for or against.  I am simply trying to point out two big cost factors that some of you might be overlooking.  If you want to save this gym as a public facility, your best bet might be to look for someone who has $15 million or so that he would be willing to spend just to have a place to play pick-up games 
]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2018 14:32:01 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50281&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50281 Hamilton's Catalytic Downtown Projects : If you really wanted to save the... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50280&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50280 Author: processor
Subject: 6803
Posted: Jun 25 2018 at 1:27pm

If you really wanted to save the gym you should start with the School Board and see what their intentions are.  If it is to tear it down, you need to determine their time frame so you know how much time you have to find another purpose.  Then you would need to get with the people who could spend the money and organize the facility to be self sufficient.  Ask the Board at the YMCA if they could/would have a use for it.  Ask others who run sports programs.  Then you'd have to get the parties together to see what could be worked out.  My guess is that the School Board wants to what's good for the community but eliminate their responsibility for the building going forward.  I'd be surprised if they wouldn't consider other options.

Bitching about it on a blog, that few read, will accomplish nothing.
]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2018 13:27:05 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50280&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50280 Hamilton's Catalytic Downtown Projects : buddhalite:"If this person... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50279&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50279 Author: VietVet
Subject: 6803
Posted: Jun 25 2018 at 9:15am

buddhalite:

"If this person wants to cough up the funds to make it happen - then let them have the building."

"If not - someone needs to just man up and understand that it's not going to happen and quit wasting time on dreams and buttercups."

I will offer some suggestions/solutions to funding the gym to keep it intact......

Perhaps the Wade E. Miller Gym could be saved by tying the sports activities which would occur into the YMCA and the funds they get in running their operation. Perhaps the Miller Gym could be an extension of the YMCA where intramural basketball and volleyball leagues could occur. Perhaps the city could set up a membership program for all who would use the facility to help fund it. Perhaps the same grants used to fund the downtown projects and historic buildings could also be used to fund the historic Miller Gym. Perhaps refreshments and sandwiches could be sold on the premises to help defray costs. Perhaps the city could tie the gym into their "historic district" area and reap what benefits that would mean for the gym. Perhaps a community membership could be paid for those wanting to use the gym facility at their convenience. Perhaps corporate memberships could be obtained to have industrial league basketball in the gym. How about corporate donations helping out?

I agree with buddhalite that the location is a detriment. No doubt about it that the neighborhood has gone so far downhill over the last three decades that it makes it extremely hard to look at any positives as to usage for the high school building itself. It is a shame. It is a sturdy building. Has many examples of old school workmanship throughout. I also understand why it is targeted to be demolished as well. It is just sad to see yet another Middletown landmark being taken down. The downtown area, for the most part, is a shadow of itself in more prosperous times. Just hard to watch things disappear and not be replaced by newer buildings. Too many "Gilleland Greenspaces" in Middletown now. She may have liked the idea of greenspaces, but some of us older folks are sad to see so many of them now. Hell, we can't even identify our old hometown anymore in some areas. Sad to see. You know, progress comes with the "out with the old and in with the new" philosophy but we have a lot more "out with the old" going on and hardly any "in with the new" in it's place. Time to start replacing what you have torn down city leaders. What is your plan to do this?
]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2018 09:15:52 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50279&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50279 Hamilton's Catalytic Downtown Projects : BUDDHA - I thought the entire... http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50278&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50278 Author: Analytical
Subject: 6803
Posted: Jun 25 2018 at 8:17am

BUDDHA - I thought the entire purpose of this board was to foster discussion.

I am participating in such discussion.  I am making counter points to yours.  I am trying to persuade and so are you.

RESPONSE - topical discussion/debate is predicated upon the civil presentation of ideas/beliefs as well as counter ideas/beliefs.  IT'S NOT THE OUTCOME OF CONSTANT CRITIQUE/BLANKET DISMISSAL OF ONE'S IDEAS WHILE FAILING TO PRESENT ALTERNATIVE CONCEPTS.  Therefore, what concrete solutions have you ever suggested in the way of badly needed housing and community development improvements?  Aside from oft-stated opposition to public financial assistance of redevelopment endeavors, what are your priorities, policies, plans and programs for the betterment of Middletown as an aspiring city council candidate?

BUDDHA - I think your expectations of this city are egregious and impossible. You think I am a whippersnapper coming in here telling you that you're wrong.

I am only participating in the discussion.  FWIW - ok - save the gym.  Where's the money coming from?

I'm not heartless no was my response inappropriate.  If you want something - how do you get it?  You go buy it.  So, my response was - let 'em have it. I have no problem with that.

RESPONSE - Your critique of my long-standing commitment to sound fiscal management is way off course.  And, I'm a realist in terms of what is possible/not possible given a municipalities' market dynamics and financial condition.

Since 1971 I've witnessed some glaring examples of wasteful spending of federal funds.  Being a fiscal conservative, I've always endeavored to bring cost-effective and highest/best use thinking to a normally bureaucratic environment.  Your assessment of my expectations as being egregious and impossible speaks volumes about your tendency to belittle others.

BUDDHA - I was in the building no less than 2 weeks ago - it's a disaster.  Any ROI on making that place anything more than what it is would likely be 20 years or more in a rent-controlled situation.  Not to mention its location.  Oh yeah - it's location.

RESPONSE - Like some people, I'm not so presumptuous in declaring myself to be an expert in determining the economic feasibility of utilizing the former Middletown High School for any adaptive reuse.  That requires specific expertise in the conduct of market analysis studies, the preparation of construction cost estimates, the packaging of assorted financing sources, cash flow analysis, etc., etc.

BUDDHA - Excuse the fire out me for butting into conversations and trying to make some business sense out of things.  I'll crawl back in my hole and let you go back to dominating the boards with solely your posts and nothing else.  That's productivity.

RESPONSE - I successfully spent eight years as a home builder in New England and know what it's like to compete in the private sector.  I know the ups and downs of having owned/operated a small business that provided homes for 77 customers.

Buddha, simply share "concrete" recommendations for solving Middletown's troubling deficiencies from now forward!  Generic, feel-good generalities are not what's needed.  The floor is now yours.  Use it productively. 
]]> Mon, 25 Jun 2018 08:17:43 +0000 http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6803&PID=50278&title=hamiltons-catalytic-downtown-projects#50278