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Bond Issue

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VietVet View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 11:59am
ch, where did I say that all who support the schools are "kool-aid drinkers"? I said that, just as I had a selfish reason for supporting the seniors levy, I would imagine school levy supporters have their reasons too. Check the post once again.

ch:

"Once again, none of you addressed what to do with our 90 year old monster. Ignore it for 10 more years and THEN do something/nothing about it? Under full local cost?"

OK, THEN WHY DO WE SEE 100+ YEAR OLD BUILDINGS ON THE NOTRE DAME, DUKE, AND OTHER PRESIGIOUS COLLEGE CAMPUSES THAT SEEM TO HAVE GREAT SUCCESS IN EDUCATING THE YOUNGER PEOPLE? THEY GET A GOOD EDUCATION OUT OF OLD BUILDINGS. BY YOUR LOGIC, IN ORDER FOR THE YOUNG PEOPLE TO RECEIVE A GOOD EDUCATION FROM THESE UNIVERSITIES, ALL OLD BUILDINGS NEED TO BE TORN DOWN AND REPLACED BY NEWER, MORE MODERN FACILITIES.

ch:

Please answer the questions: (1) what is your long-term plan for the middle school?

UPGRADE THE SCHOOL TO PROVIDE WHAT WOULD BE OFFERED IN YOUR NEW SCHOOL BUILDINGS. VAIL (OLD MIDD. HIGH TO ME) HAS LASTED FOR WHAT, CLOSE TO 100 YEARS. DOUBT VERY SERIOUSLY THAT WE WILL GET THAT MILEAGE OUT OF THE NEW MIDDLE SCHOOL YOU ARE PROPOSING.

ch:

2) Why punish all the students because of some?

I THOUGHT WE HAD OTHER ALTERNATIVES TO EDUCATING THE STUDENTS THAT DIDN'T PERFORM AS WELL AS THE MAINSTREAM. ISN'T THE PURPOSE OF THE ALTERNATIVE EDUCATION TO PREVENT STUDENTS FROM FAILING AND DROPPING OUT ALTOGETHER? FURTHERMORE, WHY DO YOU REFER TO "PUNISHING ALL THE STUDENTS BECAUSE OF SOME"? BECAUSE THE STUDENTS DON"T GET FANCY NEW DIGS PUNISHES THEM? HOW DO YOU FIGURE?

ch:

"By the way, I have NEVER tied new schools to performance"

UHH, I BELIEVE YOU HAVE. I BELIEVE THE SCHOOL PEOPLE (PRICE) MADE THAT CLAIM BEFORE THE ELEMENTARIES WERE BUILT. SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF BUILD THE NEW SCHOOLS AND WATCH THE PERFORMANCE IMPROVE.

ch:

"We need new/renovated buildings because the others are not functional for today's learners---at any level."

BUT CH, THE NEW BUILDINGS WITH ALL THE LATEST BELLS AND WHISTLES ARE NOT PRODUCING ANY BETTER RESULTS THAN THE OLD BUILDINGS DID. THAT SUGGESTS THAT THE "FUNCTIONALITY FOR TODAY'S LEARNERS" AS YOU PUT IT, DOESN'T TRANSLATE TO AUTOMATIC IMPROVEMENT. AS OF THIS DATE, YOU CAN NOT MAKE THAT STATEMENT WITH ANY VALIDITY. IT HASN'T PROVEN TO BE SO IN THE ELEMENTARIES.

NOW, ADDRESS MY QUESTION TO YOU, WHICH YOU FAILED TO DO.

HAVE THE NEW ELEMENTARIES GIVEN US ANY BETTER RESULTS, AFTER A SUFFICIENT NUMBER OF YEARS, COMPARED TO THE PERFORMANCE FROM THE OLD ELEMENTARIES? AND IF SO, 45 MILLION MORE? OW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE PERFORMANCE TO DATE FROM THE NEW SCHOOLS?

I STILL MAINTAIN THAT THE CORRECT CURRICULUM, PRESENTED IN THE CLASSROOM WITH THE PROPER TECHNIQUE THAT WILL ATTRACT THE INTEREST OF THE STUDENT, COUPLED WITH A CONTROLLED CLASSROOM ATMOSPHERE AND STUDENT PARTICIPATION, FREE OF INTERRUPTIONS AND PROBLEM STUDENTS, WILL GET THE JOB DONE, NO MATTER HOW OLD THE BUILDING IN WHICH THAT CLASSROOM RESIDES. IT IS CONTENT DELIVERED TO THE STUDENT AND STUDENT INTEREST THAT TRUMPS NEW/OLD BUILDINGS IMO. THE FOCUS IS WHAT THE STUDENT IS ABSORBING, NOT WHERE THEY ARE SITTING.   
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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chmoore1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chmoore1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 3:59pm

Vet: I have NEVER said that new buildings would raise test scores.  New buildings replace old, out-dated buildings.  "I THOUGHT WE HAD OTHER ALTERNATIVES TO EDUCATING THE STUDENTS THAT DIDN'T PERFORM AS WELL AS THE MAINSTREAM. ISN'T THE PURPOSE OF THE ALTERNATIVE EDUCATION TO PREVENT STUDENTS FROM FAILING AND DROPPING OUT ALTOGETHER."  ?  The answer doesn't fit the question----Why do all the Johnnys and Marys that are learning not get the tools necsaary to keep up with the Mason and Lakota Schools?  Listen, once again: to renovate Vail to state standards is as expensive as building a new building, AND THE STATE WON'T LET YOU DO THAT IF RENOVATION COSTS ARE  66% OF A NEW SCHOOL.  Middletown taxpayers would again lose the the very dollars necesasary to pay for the new school.  ACCLARO: let's use your analogy to the 100 year old buildings at Duke, Yale, Harvard, etc.  Let's see, how are those colleges funded again?  Oh, yeah, TUITION at $50,000 per student .  Oh, yeah---and Room and Board.  Yeah, that's the ticket!  Have you seen any articles lately about the cost of college going up?  Sure, you can renovate Vail---have you been in there lately?  Try the fourth floor.  Classroom sizes are less than 750 sq. ft.  State standards (which everyone on here raves about) are 900.  Spiderjohn: with respect, I will answer your questions separately since this post is getting long.   Just 1 chmoore.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chmoore1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 4:03pm
Vet: by the way, I have NEVER argued about college buildings being torn down. You continue to confuse me with someone else. Here's a good question for you: if Duke, etc. owned Middletown Middle School, and wanted to renovate it, would it cost more for the college to do it, or more for Middletown City Schools to do it.  And, whichever is more costly, why do think that would be?   Just 1 chmoore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chmoore1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 4:13pm
Speiderjohn:  So-- what happens to the old hs, now a middle school, when it is closed?
Can the system afford to tear it down?
Will it be looted of any valuable woodwork or fixtures like the other schools were?
Will the property be sold?
Will the taxpayers get good bang for their buck through salvage/sales?
As I understand from the board minutes, the old HS will be torn down along with Wade E. Miller, the annex building, the cafeteria and the Warehouse (old shop) building.  The demolition cost is in the price. I have no idea about the looting, either past or future.  I would think that property would be sold, just guessing...that's up to the board at that time I would think. Have no clue about the "bang for the buck through salvage."  I guess that would be up to the architectural firm that does the project.   Just 1 chmoore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 5:22pm
chmoore----

Georgia Tech is introducing an online, Master Degree program in Computer Science, cost for two years (MS)? $7,000.

Enrollment will be 10,000 students. They intend to change the paradigm associated with tenure, brick and mortar, and this nonsense that school costs go up 10% annually.

The state of Ohio overs online high school education. That provides parity.

Brick and mortar is wasteful.  
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chmoore1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 5:48pm
Acclaro: I couldn't agree more about an on-line master's degree.  I got an MPA two years ago from Capella online.  This, however, is about 4 years-old to 18 years-old, not 21-60 year-old students.  Also, Louise McBain, my old MHS Algebra 2 teacher, used to fret about those prodigy children who started college at 12 years old: she constantly worried about who they would take to homecoming.  Same is true for on-line courses.  Capella wouldn't let me on the football team because I couldn't make it to the games.   Just 1 chmoore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 6:08pm
Well chmoore---that's easy to address. The students go "virtual" to the prom, dance, football game, you name it. With your background in public health, as the levy failed for that in Middletown by about 20%; what are the odds the school levy will fail?

What is making the masses leave Middletown is its reputation it is "public sector" haven, meaning, either you work in the public sector, and you support each others levies, school, city, fire/ police, or you get out. If you are in private sector (I am), you get out.
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMAO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 05 2013 at 9:33pm
I'd love to go in the buildings before the are tore down to look around and maybe buy some things.Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chmoore1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 12:20am
Acclaro:  Master of Public Administration, not public health.   Just 1 chmoore
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 6:39am
ch:

"Vet: by the way, I have NEVER argued about college buildings being torn down"

DON'T THINK I SAID YOU DID. THE SUBJECT IS IN THE MIDD. SCHOOL REALM ON BUILDING TEAR DOWNS, NOT THE COLLEGE BUILDINGS, RIGHT? I WAS USING THE AGE OF THE COLLEGE BUILDINGS THAT ARE AS OLD (OR OLDER) THAN VAIL TO MAKE A POINT.... THAT BEING, THAT A STUDENT CAN GET A GOOD EDUCATION IN AN OLD BUILDING AS WELL AS A BRAND NEW ONE. JUST DEPENDS ON THE CURRICULUM, THE METHOD OF INSTRUCTION FOR MATERIAL RETENTION AND THE CLASSROOM ENVIRONMENT.

BY THE WAY, I HAD MCBAIN FOR SENIOR TRIG, GEOMETRY AND PRELIM. TO CALCULUS BACK IN 66. GREAT TEACHER. UNFORTUNATELY, THE CALC COURSE DIDN'T PREPARE ME FOR FRESHMAN CALC WITH KATHIE MULLIGAN AT MUM THE FIRST YEAR IT OPENED. COURSE ENDED WITH LIMITS AND MULLIGAN STARTED WITH LIMITS. SHE MOVED THROUGH THE COURSE AT A FAST PACE AND CALC WAS COMPLICATED TO ME.

I WILL ASK THE QUESTION FOR THE THIRD TIME.......

WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS FROM THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS BEFORE THE TEAR DOWNS AND WHAT ARE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS WITH THE NEW SCHOOLS? ARE THEY VASTLY IMPROVED AND IF SO, WAS IT WORTH THE 45 MILLION TO SEE THE IMROVEMENT? DID THE TAXPAYER GET A GOOD ROI? AND IF THE ANSWER IS NO, WHY DO WE WANT TO REPEAT THE SCENARIO WITH ANOTHER BOND LEVY, KNOWING THE FIRST DID NOT YIELD ANY BETTER RESULTS?......OTHER THAN A "USE IT OR LOSE IT 40 MILLION FROM THE STATE" OF COURSE.

ch:

Here's a good question for you: if Duke, etc. owned Middletown Middle School, and wanted to renovate it, would it cost more for the college to do it, or more for Middletown City Schools to do it. And, whichever is more costly, why do think that would be?

I WOULD FIRST NEED TO KNOW HOW MUCH HELP IN FINANCING DUKE WOULD GET AS OPPOSED TO MIDD SCHOOLS. NOT FAMILIAR WITH THAT FINANCING AND WHAT IS AVAILABLE THROUGH ANY FED OR STATE PROGRAMS TO AID IN THE MONEY AREA. I WOULD IMAGINE THE COLLEGE WOULD HAVE AN EASIER TIME RENOVATING VAIL AS THEY HAVE A GREATER MONEY TAP FROM TUITIONS, BENEFACTORS AND RESEARCH PROJECTS. MIDD. SCHOOLS HAVE ONLY THE POOR, MIDDLE AND LOWER MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE TO BLEED DRY FOR THEIR MONEY TAP. THE HIGHER INCOME HAVE MOVED OUT ALONG WITH MOST INDUSTRY AND THE HIGHER WAGE EARNERS, LEAVING MIDD. SCHOOLS NO CHOICE BUT TO BEAT THE REMAINING TAXPAYERS UP.

OK, TEAR ALL THE OLD BUILDINGS DOWN IN THE MIDD. SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT YOU WOULD LIKE. WILL JUST COST MONEY THAT PEOPLE IN A POOR TOWN DON'T HAVE. I'LL MAKE A BET WITH YOU THAT AFTER YOUR NEW SCHOOLS ARE BUILT, NOTHING WILL CHANGE AS TO BETTER PERFORMANCE AND THE PEOPLE WHO WERE FORCED TO FUND THE NEW FACILITIES WILL GET ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR THEIR MONEY. AGAIN, FOR THE UPTEENTH TIME, YA GOTTA CHANGE WHAT'S GOING INSIDE THE BUILDING TO CHANGE THE RESULTS. THE CONDITION OF THE BUILDING, NEW OR OLD, ISN'T THE FIXATIVE TO THE CHANGE. WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN THAT.


I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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VietVet View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 7:10am
ch:

"Why do all the Johnnys and Marys that are learning not get the tools necsaary to keep up with the Mason and Lakota Schools?"

IF BY TOOLS, YOU MEAN NEW SCHOOLS, I THOUGHT I SUGGESTED THAT YOU DON'T NEED NEW SCHOOLS TO EFFECT LEARNING. THEREFORE, NEW SCHOOLS SHOULDN'T BE INCLUDED ON YOUR "TOOLS" LIST. JOHNNY AND MARY CAN KEEP UP WITH MASON AND LAKOTA IF THEY HAVE THE SAME QUALITY OF CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION AND THE PARENTS INSIST ON A GOOD EDUCATION AS THE MASON AND LAKOTA PARENTS DO. PARENT INSISTENCE DOESN'T REQUIRE NEW SCHOOLS. IT REQUIRES A MINDSET CHANGE WITH THE MIDDLETOWN PARENTS. MASON AND LAKOTA DO WELL BECAUSE OF THE CLASSROOM ATMOSPHERE AND PARENTAL SUPPORT, NOT BECAUSE OF NEW SCHOOLS. THE ATTITUDE APPROACH BY THE DISTRICT AS A WHOLE HAS A GREATER IMPACT THAN THE SCHOOL BUILDING IMO. EXPECTATIONS ARE HIGHER FROM SCHOOL TO PARENT TO STUDENT IN THESE DISTRICTS.....AND EXPECTATIONS COME FROM PEOPLE, NOT NEWER BUILDINGS.

ch:

Listen, once again: to renovate Vail to state standards is as expensive as building a new building, AND THE STATE WON'T LET YOU DO THAT IF RENOVATION COSTS ARE 66% OF A NEW SCHOOL. Middletown taxpayers would again lose the the very dollars necesasary to pay for the new school

RENOVATE OR BUILD NEW, EITHER WAY, IT'S TOO COSTLY FOR THE AVERAGE RESIDENT OF MIDDLETOWN NOW. THE TOWN IS PREDOMINATELY LOWER MIDDLE TO LOW CLASS NOW. NOT ENOUGH MONEY LIVING HERE ANYMORE TO AFFORD THIS GAME PLAN OF YOURS. NOW, EITHER THE SCHOOL FOLKS AND THEIR SUPPORTERS DON'T UNDERSTAND THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THIS CITY ANYMORE, OR THEY WANT WHAT THEY WANT REGARDLESS OF THE ABILITY TO PAY FOR THE PEOPLE WHICH IS A TAD BIT SELFISH. THERE IS NO MONEY TO DO THE THINGS YOU WANT TO DO, THE ECONOMY AND THE WAY THE CITY HAS BEEN OPERATED HAS DRIVEN OUT ALL THE COMPANIES AND THE PEOPLE WITH MONEY. THE SCHOOLS YOU HAVE BUILT ALREADY AND THE SCHOOLS YOU WANT TO BUILD ARE ALL ROLLS ROYCES IN A YUGO TOWN. THE ELEMENTARIES LOOK LIKE SMALL COLLEGE CAMPUS BUILDINGS AND LOOK SO OUT OF PLACE WITH THE REST OF THE TOWN. THESE BUILDINGS LOOK MORE SUITABLE FOR SPRINGBORO OR MASON THAN MIDDLETOWN.
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Saunders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 7:48am
The CG&E building in clowntown Middletown is pretty old.  How does Cincinnati State expect their students to learn in that old building?  Can't the City schools use the same methods?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chmoore1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 8:04am
Vet: once again we are going round and round and getting nowhere.  Just a couple of observations before I go back under my rock---or I may decide to just stick my head in the sand.  Bottom line is---get your duct tape ready---new school buildings DO have more value to a community than just educating kids: there, I said it.  Otherwise we would still have Maple Park, Oneida, Jefferson, Garfield, Sherman and the old city building where Dublin House now sits.  Eye-sores and dilapidated school buildings do need to be replaced.  Another observation: are you saying, after all this time of expounding  the glory days of education in Middletown in the '50s and '60s, that YOU were not educated properly by one of Middletown's most esteemed teachers, Mrs. Louise McBain?  Could there have been a glitch in the system, even in 1966?  I know that I chose, by my behavior, to not take advantage of the educational opportunities available to me.  I worked through high school and partied on the weekends; I didn't take my homework seriously and lost interest.  But that was MY choice. By today's standards, I would have helped Middletown lower the indicators to less than 6-in-26 (do you like the way I snuck that in for a second time this month?).  Ok, done with my soapbox for a while.  My rock looks mighty inviting.  Just one last poke: if $8.00/month will finish the building cycle for the next 40 years, I'll bite-the-bullet and take it.  Whether we like it or not, "it is what it is." The state mandates everything---test scores, building size, who gets what money...and on and on.  OH, LOOK!  someone dropped a quarter on the sidewalk!  Wow, that will make up for my daily contribution to a new tax levy THAT WILL PAY FOR MY NEW MIDDLE SCHOOL AND RENOVATED HIGH SCHOOL!   I feel better already.  OOOHHH---look! another dime on the ground!  I'll put that towards my next gallon gas. 40 more of those and I can drive another 15 miles....  Please don't stand on my rock---my head hurts too much.    Just 1 chmoore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TonyB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 9:00am
I happen to agree with Acclaro on the idea that the building itself doesn't raise test scores. No matter how you slice this debate or what side you're on, 6 of 26 indicators is a failing grade. I also think there is a huge difference trying to compare education standards from different decades. Back when I went to Middletown City Schools (in the Stone Age), there were no standardized tests to determine whether an individual or the district was meeting "indicators". The standard was how many were graduating and what the GPA was for those students. This whole switch to standardized testing has, imo; destroyed the education system that had been built prior to its implementation. Now, the only thing that matters when judging a school system are those "indicators". The only thing that is taught now is the information to pass those tests and how to take the tests to insure the best possible outcome for the school district. The purpose of education is not the memorization of facts but the training of the mind to learn; something you do for the rest of your life. Our education system no longer teaches that life skill; now we teach indoctrination through the learning of facts and propaganda formulated to keep up the appearance of learning. In Middletown, even the appearance of learning is suffering and the panacea is the offering of new schools as the answer to the problem. It's not the buildings; it's the educational system that has been put in place that is the problem. I don't see how a new levy, new buildings or anything else resolves the real problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chmoore1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 10:21am
Up from my nap.  Richard: Again, college classes, mostly online, older students, different methods when we're talking 5 year olds to 18 year olds.  And, we're talking about 300 students on one campus (building)---not 10 schools, 6,500 students.   TonyB: I agree, too, that the building itself does not raise test scores. BUT, buildings do affect the overall educational process, which is far greater than just passing a standardized test.  I agree with you also about everything else in your post.  Part of my argument is that society itself is the biggest contributor to this problem.  By the way, Vet is the one that is always comparing the "good old days" of the '50s and '60s to todays education....   Just 1 chmoore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 11:02am
Let's really net this discussion out.

There will be those whom want to build a new school associated with they just must have it, to keep up with the "Jones", ergo, other districts. They will use a state mandate for numbers of windows needed, numbers of square feet, the ratio of converting hydrogen to produce methane gas to modulate the high frequency of the 3 D tv's in every classroom, et al.

There will be those who are owed payback for getting other levies passed, now its the school's turn.

At the end of the day, not one brick will have an impact upon school performance nor enrollment. Middletown increasingly needs and utilizes open enrollment for back fill of the decline in population in Middletown. Section 8 also serves to fill the excess capacity of seats, but one assumes, contributes to the continuous improvement rating.

So, the town will rise taxes, with no net benefit. In turn, population continues to decline, more foreclosures go up, as more people dump properties, valuations go down (just wait until the next set of property tax appeals hit), and the cycle of diminishing returns continues. The problem doesn't rectify itself, until those that have been in the city during the "glory" years are gone, deceased, moved on to assisted living, etc. That will be about 10-15 years....ten the mass low income moves in, and the city hits Detroit status in all facets.

Loved the "pizza" tax analogy chmoore....for just 8.00/ month, it will only cost me, the same as buying a morning breakfast at the Golden Nugget, or a few slices of pizzas, or less than a cup of Joe a day.

Here's what Middletown's priorities need to be, and its not building new schools. Also, chmoore, private schools get endowments from givers and donors, maybe the public sector should do same---have one of the Akers drop $10 Mm for renovation for the MHS, not amortize the pizza tax over many houses (properties).

Priority 1- Streets
Priority 2- Sewers
Priority 3- Escalation of property valuation
Priority 4- Repair broken image
Priority 5- Economic development engine "that could and does"- east end
Priority 6- Lower Crime
Priority 7- Focus upon core functionality, not asset takeover and management
Priority 8- Dump downtown initiatives- let Main Street worry about selling their "historic" significance
Priority 9- Mixed blend of full-time/ volunteer fire department
Priority 10- Transparency at Donham (finance- GF)

I wouldn't put the school building in a top 25 frankly.

You know why AK, Atrium, Square D, CSH, and others left Middletown---taxes.             
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 11:10am
ch:

"By the way, Vet is the one that is always comparing the "good old days" of the '50s and '60s to todays education"

ch, DID YOU JUST "RAT" ME OUT TO THE TEACHER?

YEP. MUCH BETTER THAN TODAY'S WORLD IN MOST WAYS. MIDD. SCHOOLS.... A SHADOW OF THEMSELVES IN PERFORMANCE. NO CONTROL. NO DISCIPLINE. KIDS BEING PASSED THROUGH THE SYSTEM JUST TO GET RID OF THEM. PROUD OF THE GIFTED KIDS. NO SO MUCH SO WITH THE GENERAL STUDENT BODY. NO ONE FAILS A GRADE ANYMORE. JUST PUSH 'EM THROUGH. SOME KIDS GRADUATING FROM HIGH SCHOOL CAN'T ADD, SUBTRACT, MULTIPLY NOR DIVIDE. SOME CAN'T READ TO FUNCTION IN THIS OLD WORLD....NEW SCHOOLS SHOULD SOLVE THE PROBLEM THOUGH.

ch:

"TonyB: I agree, too, that the building itself does not raise test scores. BUT, buildings do affect the overall educational process, which is far greater than just passing a standardized test"

I ASSUME, BY YOUR STANCE ON BUILDING NEW SCHOOLS, THAT YOU MEAN NEW BUILDINGS AFFECT THE OVERALL EDUCATIONAL PROCESS....AND HOW DO THEY DO THAT AS OPPOSED TO OLDER BUILDINGS? PLEASE EXPLAIN FOR UNDERSTANDING ch. OR.....PERHAPS THERE IS NO PROVEN DATA THAT ASSURES NEW SCHOOLS PRODUCE BETTER RESULTS. ANY DATA ch?
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 11:46am
ch:

"Bottom line is---get your duct tape ready---new school buildings DO have more value to a community than just educating kids: there, I said it"

THAT WOULD BE TRUE IF IT WERE ANY COMMUNITY BUT MIDDLETOWN. NEW SCHOOLS WOULD CERTAINLY BE OF VALUE TO A COMMUNITY AS TO THE ATTRACTION OF NEW PEOPLE. HAS WORKED FOR MASON AND SPRINGBORO. HOWEVER....THE SCHOOLS OF MIDDLETOWN AND THE PERCEPTION OF THEIR KIDS RECEIVING LESS THAN AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION WOULD TRUMP ANY NEW SCHOOLS YOU COULD BUILD. FANCY NEW SCHOOLS DON'T HELP A BIT IF THE PEOPLE KNOW THEIR KIDS WILL STILL NOT RECEIVE AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION. NOPE, PEOPLE ARE PULLING THEIR KIDS OUT TO GO ELSEWHERE AND TO CHARTER SCHOOLS. CONTENT ch, NOT OUTSIDE APPEARANCE. THE MIDDLETOWN SCHOOLS HAVE NOT HAD A STELLAR REPUTATION FOR DECADES.

ch:

"Another observation: are you saying, after all this time of expounding the glory days of education in Middletown in the '50s and '60s, that YOU were not educated properly by one of Middletown's most esteemed teachers, Mrs. Louise McBain? Could there have been a glitch in the system, even in 1966?"

YEP, A GLITCH. THE MATH COLLEGE PREP COURSES THAT I TOOK IN HIGH SCHOOL DID NOT PREPARE ME TO START THE MULLIGAN VERSION OF FRESHMAN COLLEGE CALCULUS. McBAIN ENDED WITH LIMITS. MULLIGAN STARTED WITH LIMITS. APPARENTLY, THE HIGH SCHOOL MATH PEOPLE DIDN'T BOTHER TO ASK THE RECEIVING MUM MATH PEOPLE WHAT THE STUDENTS NEEDED TO HANDLE TO COLLEGE MATH CURRICULUM. I WONDER IF THE CURRENT HIGH SCHOOL/STATE PEOPLE ARE IN TOUCH WITH THE CURRENT COLLEGE FOLKS TO ASSURE THE STUDENTS WILL BE ABLE TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE IN THEIR FRESHMAN YEAR. SOME COLLEGES MUST START A REMEDIAL CLASS TO BRING THE FRESHMAN CLASS IN COLLEGE UP TO SPEED IN PREPARATION. THAT DOESN'T SPEAK WELL FOR THE HIGH SCHOOL PREPARATION PROGRAM. DON'T THINK IT WAS McBAIN'S FAULT. MIDD. SCHOOLS AND MUM JUST WEREN'T TIED TOGETHER AS TO CROSSOVER NEEDS.

ch:

"Just one last poke: if $8.00/month will finish the building cycle for the next 40 years, I'll bite-the-bullet and take it. Whether we like it or not, "it is what it is." The state mandates everything---test scores, building size, who gets what money...and on and on. OH, LOOK! someone dropped a quarter on the sidewalk! Wow, that will make up for my daily contribution to a new tax levy THAT WILL PAY FOR MY NEW MIDDLE SCHOOL AND RENOVATED HIGH SCHOOL!   I feel better already. OOOHHH---look! another dime on the ground! I'll put that towards my next gallon gas. 40 more of those and I can drive another 15 miles"

I SEE YOU'RE IN THE SAME MODE THAT SOME TV COMMERCIALS ARE IN. "PLEASE GIVE.....JUST A DOLLAR A DAY...THE COST OF A CUP OF COFFEE TO HELP THESE STARVING CHILDREN"...........YOU CAN SPIN IT ANYWAY YOU WISH AS THE TV PEOPLE DO, TUGGING ON YOUR HEART STRINGS TO GIVE, TEARS AND ALL. IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THE PERFORMANCE OF PREVIOUS LEVIES. WHAT HAS HAPPENED WITH THE PROGRESS MADE FROM THE 45 MILLION WE SPENT ON THE ELEMENTARIES? LIKE TOM CRUISE SAYING "SHOW ME THE MONEY" IN JERRY McGUIRE....I SAY "SHOW ME THE PERFORMANCE" BEFORE I VOTE FOR YOUR BOND LEVY. A BUCKS A MONTH ISN'T THE ISSUE HERE ch. WHAT DID I GET FROM MY LAST 8 BUCKS A MONTH FROM THE LAST BOND LEVY IS. I JUST DON'T THINK YOU HAVE PROVEN THAT THE LAST BOND LEVY MONEY WAS WORTH IT, MUCH LESS GIVING YOU LEVY SUPPORTERS MORE THIS TIME.

BY THE WAY, STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, POSED FOR THE FOURTH TIME NOW....WHAT WAS THE PERFORMANCE LEVEL OF THE ELEMENTARIES IN THE OLD SCHOOLS VERSUS THE PERFORMANCE FROM THE NEWLY BUILT SCHOOLS. AND WAS THE DIFFERENCE WORTH THE 45 MILLION SPENT. HOW ABOUT A RESPONSE THIS TIME.
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 1:28pm
Acclaro,
 
I have one minor comment to your priority list:
 
Move the sewers up to Number 1.  Not because you or I may see it that way, but because the EPA will soon FORCE the city to see it that way.
 
(Also because it would be just like City Hall to do a street first, then tear up that brand new pavement to do sewer work.)
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote processor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 2:03pm
Acclaro,
I like your priority list but some of your priorities are results and/or strategies and not action items.  For example #3 escalation of property values is a result of increased demand and/or reduced supply.  I would argue that better schools; academic performance number one and functionality, location, and appearance of schools number two will help achieve your #3 priority.  Many people are turned off and are concerned because of the location of the middle school.  Some don't buy in Middletown because of the location.  Academic performance is a work in progress while the re-habbed high school and the new high school can be done now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 2:59pm
processor; I agree with you and would state as the adage goes; '"it is location, location, location" when buying property, and escalation of value.

However....the problem with building schools is that is simply does not address the city's other problems that increases demand and eliminates supply. It actually diminishes demand, and increases supply.

The school buildings, in my opinion, is not even a "band aid" effect. Middletown's problems run so deep and wide, it would not put a dent in overcoming many obstacles. I don't believe the location is an issue and hasn't been for years. Of course, it makes for a nice argument to get new school(s) built, but it is not a "location driven" need. Some of the most wealthy property owners in Middletown, others than those whose children were at John XXIII or Miami Valley, Summit Country Day, et al, had no issues with Vail, other than violence. Location was always and is today, a non issue.

I do realize of course, its a nice strategy to have---they have to move it to be more neutral, and closer to the east end. An interesting paradox---move Vail closer to highway (75) for growth, while downtown is the engine for revitalization, and money pit expenditures, associated with the renewal of the downtown. Someone is wrong. Hard to sustain two opposing arguments for "location."   
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote processor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 3:21pm
Acclaro,
Anecdotally I know of about 10 people who would have kept their children in Middletown City Schools but moved them out ONLY because they did not want them to go to Vail due to its location.  This can also be seen in the enrollment data.  There is a fairly large drop between 6th grade and 7th.
 
The new/rebuilt schools won't solve Middletown's issue, but is one necessary step.  The school board seems to be doing a good job in assessing the proper priorities; academics first, financial performance second, school culture third and facilities fourth.  Maybe there will be a positive change in city management and council and they too can get on board with proper priorities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 3:31pm
processor, I know a very prominent physician/ surgeon who had a stepson beat to a pulp at Vail; the drop off you speak, at least among those whom I speak/ spoke, is associated with Vail violence, not locale. As we both agree...I believe anyway...

the school location will have limited effect on increased enrollment, other than one could argue....a stretch in my opinion, some living in Franklin might stray into open enrollment if out at Miller Ridge area (a stretch- emphasis added
:D)  
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ktf1179 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 3:33pm
I got it Get Mike Holmes and or the Property Brothers to come out and renovate and flip the old middle school into a modern functional open concept school, with Hardwood Floors, Stainless Steel appliances, and Granite Counter Tops in the Kitchen and in the Home Economics Rooms LOL Handshake
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 06 2013 at 3:37pm
I agree that the new school admin location may teach Council/city admin a few lessons on interaction with citizens.

The school people that read this site actually want to meet the bloggers and establish dialogue. They are open to listening, and providing answers and explanations.

Seems that the city staff prefers to denegrate web posters and keep the us vs. them in the bunker approach.

Anyone else feel that way?
Jmo of course!
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