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Sunday, November 10, 2024 |
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Red Light Camera's |
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Wots 
MUSA Resident 
Joined: Mar 18 2009 Status: Offline Points: 94 |
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 Topic: Red Light Camera'sPosted: Jul 17 2009 at 12:12am |
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Good article here. Red-light cameras in Schaumburg screech to a halt -- chicagotribune.com “because crash data, prepared by the Police Department in June, revealed that the intersection does not have a problem with running-red-light accidents nor did it have one in 2008 when the cameras were installed. That fact angers Brian Costin, president of the Schaumburg Freedom Coalition, a citizens group that campaigned against the cameras last September. "I think Mayor [Al] Larson and the board did not do their due diligence," And what kind of due diligence was done by the city. Does “safety” have anything to do with these cameras? |
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Wots
Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers. |
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Bwood
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Joined: Oct 29 2007 Status: Offline Points: 122 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 8:28am |
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If you run a red light, you could die. There really isn't anything you can do to stop people beyond that. The cameras are just a money maker.
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Looking for news or information on display technology? If so Visit the Monitor Blog
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen 
Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 8:38am |
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It would be interesting if Middletownusa.com requested the data used to determine the placement of the current cameras from the city. I would also like to see the data from the original placement of the cameras and then the data that was used to determine that the cameras were no longer needed at the old intersections that they were removed from.
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Major Hoffman
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Joined: Jan 21 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 8:57am |
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I'm glad to answer your question. Clearly, I cannot speak for every community, but can tell you how it works in Middletown.
The first step in this process is to review the signalized intersections in the city to see where the collisions are occurring. Once this is done, the most dangerous intersections are selected and temporary equipment is installed to count the number of redlight violations over a given period of time. In other words, we know collisions are happening there, and need to know if red light violations are a major causative factor. In many instances we have found this is not the case, but rather the issue is speed, or assured clear distance or some other problem. Lastly, the intersection is examined from an engineering point of view to see if it is possible to construct the equipment. If all these criteria are met, a camera is installed.
The camera is not active until 1. the light is red, 2. has been red for 2/10th of a second, and 3. a vehicle is approaching at such a speed that it is unlikely to be able to stop. Once a possible violation is captured it is reviewed three times before a citation is issued. The reviewer looks at two photos and a video. In the first photo the vehicle must be completely out of the intersection (before the stop bar) and the light must be red. In the second, the vehicle must be completely in the instersection (no part straddling the stop bar) and the light must still be red. If, in the first, any part of the vehicle is in the intersection, the assumption is that the car entered on yellow and no citation is issued. Likewise, if any part of the car is outside the intersection in the second photo, the assumption is that the driver was able to stop prior to entering and no citation is issued. In theory, a driver could approach the intersection, stop at the light, then creep through and not activate the system. This is not the offender that is being targeted, only blatant violators recieve citations.
Yellow light time is set according to a formula develped by the Federal Highway Administration and ODOT and takes into account such things a road surface, grade, number of lanes and speed limit. It it not permissible to shorten the yellow time to try to garner more citations, nor would that be ethical or do anything to further the goal of improving safety on the roadways.
After installation there is typically a period of time where warning citations are issued. The goal is to change driver's behavior, and based on the results from the first set of cameras it is working. During the 2 week warning period a total of 150 warning citations were issued. In the first 2 weeks of actual citations this number dropped to 39. This was expected, as most drivers travel the same route on a daily basis, and become more careful at red lights.
After a citation is issued, the violator can pay the citation or request a hearing before a magistrate to contest the case. No points are assessed to the driver's license.
When the city changed vendors there were a number of locations where the number of accidents had been reduced to the point where cameras were no longer needed (Grand and Highview, for example, as well as First and Clinton). Again, this points to the fact that cameras do indeed work.
Lastly, and in my opinion, I cannot understand how someone can be against this program, provided it is administered properly. It's as if those against it feel it is permissible to violate the law as long as no one sees it. By that same thinking, a burglar could break into a business and, if there were no witnesses, never be arrested. This is a violator funded safety program where the goal is not to write tickets; it's to make sure the other fellow doesn't run the redlight and plow into your car or the car driven by your child. Does this generate revenue? Of course. There has to be some penalty for violating the law, but, again, the goal is to improve the safety of the citizens of Middletown. Some take offense with the use of technology to further this goal. If, however, the city hired 10 police officers and stationed them at the 10 most dangerous intersections with instructions to issue tickets and reduce collisions, it would be lauded as a wonderful safety program. Cameras are a more efficient, safer way of accomplishing just that.
I hope this helps, and answers your questions. Again, I cannot speak for all communities across our nation, but only for Middletown.
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Major Hoffman
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Joined: Jan 21 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 9:39am |
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Pacman -
Glad to answer that question, too. Current camera locations:
Roosevelt and Jackson Lane - 14 collisions in 2006, 14 in 2007 and 18 in 2008. Identified by ODOT as a high-accident location that should be targed for enforcement.
Central and University, First and University (treated as one intersection due to the close proximity of the signals) - 22 in 2006, 21 in 2007 and 15 in 2008. Again, identified by ODOT as a high-accident location needing enforcement.
Cincinnati Dayton and Oxford State - 25 in 2006, 30 in 2007 and 23 in 2008.
Central and Breiel - 15 in 2006, 11 in 2007 and 12 in 2008. These tend to be severe due to the relatively high speed limit on Breiel.
Intersections where they were removed:
First and Clinton - 1 in 2006, 1 in 2007 and 1 in 2008
Grand and Highview - 2 in 2006, 2 in 2007 and 4 in 2006
Both of these had much higher accident rates in prior years, which prompted their selection for cameras, however the current data does not indicate the need for enforcement.
There were other intersections that were worse that were not selected because of impending construction, such as 122 and Dixie Highway, or because they were not constructable, such as Roosevelt and Highland or Tytus and Verity. Some others that were audited yielded surprising results, such as Germantown and Verity, which has a high number of accidents but few red light violations.
Targeted enforcement at high accident locations is done on a weekly, if not daily, basis. There are STEP (Selected Targeted Enforcement Program) grants available from the State, which Middletown takes advantage of, as well as State funds to combat DUI. We regularly look at high accident locations and assign officers there (manpower permitting, which is a different story and not part of this issue.) The concept of selecting dangerous locations for directed enforcement is nothing new; it seems the change here is a change in the use of technology. One of the primary missions of any police department is to ensure the safety of the motoring public; this is one more tool to accomplish that mission.
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 10:06am |
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Thanks Major Hoffman.
I am familiar with basically 4 intersections some no longer have cameras.
Elliott and 122
Breiel and 122
Central and Breiel
Manchester/University and Breiel
For the above intersections was there an appreciable decline in accidents once the cameras were installed? It doesn't appear that the cameras have done much for Central and Breiel from your post as far as detering accidents, "Central and Breiel - 15 in 2006, 11 in 2007 and 12 in 2008. These tend to be severe due to the relatively high speed limit on Breiel."
Isn't it true that you are actually ticketing the owner of the vehicle, who may not be the operator of the vehicle in many cases. What happens with rental cars, leased vehicles, work vehicles etc. that are not owned by the driver in many cases?
Thanks in advance.
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Major Hoffman
MUSA Immigrant
Joined: Jan 21 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 10:58am |
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Elliot and 122 showed a decrease in accidents and violations, however I don't have the numbers at my fingertips. The decrease was such that we did not survey this location.
The audit of Breiel and 122 (Roosevelt) showed too few violations, surprisingly, and the complexity of the intersection makes this location difficult. The number of violations dropped dramatically while the camera was there, indicating fewer drivers were running the red light, therefore fewer collisions were being caused by red light violations.
Central and Breiel is slated for a camera.
Manchester/University/Breiel had a camera capturing Norhtbound violations. The number of accidents (7, 5 and 8) could justify one, and the added benefit of inducing youthful highschool drivers to be more careful comes into play here, but the proper approach is Eastbound. That approach is not constructable due to driveways and terrain. The Northbound approach is not where the majority of violations are occurring.
The original camera locations were selected based on a 5-year (1999 to 2004, I believe) total of collisions by location. At that time, Central and Breiel 239 collisions, an average of 47 a year. This average is misleading, as the intersection had changed over those five years with better signals and other improvements, as well as improvements in automobiles, however it still bore inspection. This is a trouble spot that we have paid a lot of attention to.
It is true that the ticket goes to the owner of the vehicle, not the driver, much the same as a parking citation does. If, however, the owner is not the driver, the owner can fill out an affadavit included with the citation and send it in. The citation is then re-issued to the driver of the vehicle and all time limits begin anew. In the case of rentals, leases or work vehicles, the citation goes to the registered owner and they can either pay it or follow the process above.
There is no photo of the driver. This was done intentionally due to concerns of privacy issues. The citation includes a photo of the rear of the vehicle before the stop bar, a second photo showing the rear of the vehicle in the intersection, and a data bar indicating the date, time, location, speed of the vehicle, length of time the light was red and elapsed time between the two photos.
Keep in mind that red light cameras are only one tool we use to improve safety. Not only are other enforcement methods used, but the Traffic Engineering department stays busy looking at intersections, placing or removing lights, adjusting speed limits, etc. to keep the streets safe for pedestrians and motorists alike. Changes in traffic patterns, new roads and changing demographics in our neighborhoods all come into play when planning for an efficient, safe flow of traffic. It's a difficult, complicated job that many play a part in.
Glad to answer your questions. There is a lot of inaccurate or misleading information out there on this topic. All are entitled to their opinion, of course, but they should form that opinion based on accurate data, on this or any other issue.
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VietVet
MUSA Council 
Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 11:17am |
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Major Hoffman- One more question- there has been discussion over the course of the red light debate concerning the timing on the yellow lights prior to turning red. It appears to many here, that the timing on the yellow light portion, on various lights around the city, are inconsistent. There are intersections where the traffic light sequence has the light on green, (with traffic moving at a 45 MPH clip), turning yellow for what seems a second or two, then red before the car can clear the wider boulevard intersections. There are intersections in town where the yellow light timing is nearly non-existent. Perhaps there would not need to be this red light/rear end collision/running red light debate if the yellow light sequence was set so as to not "rush" people through the intersections (or slam on the brakes) and may give them time to safely make it through to clear, preventing opposite traffic hestitation. JMO
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John Beagle
MUSA Official 
Joined: Apr 23 2007 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1855 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 11:54am |
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Excellent information Major Hoffman. Thanks for taking the time out to explain how Red Light Cameras work in Middletown.
There have been a number of misstatements on previous red light discussions, glad to see you set the record straight. |
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Hermes
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 19 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1637 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 2:47pm |
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I was involved at a red light side impact several years ago and if it stops people from running through red lights then it's good. I'm always afraid of the abuse of the system to make money for whomever,but if it works.
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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Major Hoffman
MUSA Immigrant
Joined: Jan 21 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 3:01pm |
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VietVet
The yellow is set by a formula developed by the Federal Highway Administration and ODOT. They take into consideration a number of factors; some constant, and some variable. The constants are reaction time, stopping distance and average length of vehicle. The variables are the speed limit, the width of the intersection and the grade of the road. Given this, it is not unreasonable that the yellow would be different at different intersections. The yellow time crossing Breiel at Roosevelt would be longer than crossing Grand at Orchard, and the shortest would be an intersection such as Marshall crossing Central.
No system is perfect and, of course, and sometimes things happen that could throw the timing off. If you have concerns about the timing of a particular intersection you can call Valerie Griffith, the Traffic Engineer at 425-7932. She is responsive to these issues and takes traffic safety very seriously.
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 3:57pm |
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Major:
Thank you for coming forward and addressing the questions put forward on this forum. It's a shame that other city officials will not do the same.
As a matter of disclosure, I have been caught once by the cameras, I WAS guilty. I paid without complaint, and have changed my driving habits, so the system works. (I also get "honked at" and "cussed at" a lot when I drive in other cities, by drivers behind me who have to slam on their brakes because they expect me to speed up and go through the changing signals.)
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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adamwlewis
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Joined: Apr 23 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 91 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 4:28pm |
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I agree Mike, it would be wonderful if other city officials would JUST COMMUNICATE to the public. Major Hoffman has done a great job today in informing us and communicating with us. Two thumbs up from me.
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Adam Lewis' Blog
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accuro
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Joined: May 31 2009 Status: Offline Points: 103 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 4:35pm |
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Major Hoffman, thank you for your comments. I believe one of the most danegrous intersections in Middletown, at Breiel Blvd and Rosedale. Everyday I see countless drivers running the light on red on Breiel, but there is absolutely no camera. Also, this same intersection has a trigger which is improperly activated. You have to rock back and forth )and reverse 15 yards) to engage the light to switch from red to green. There is not a day I don't drive that I don't witness a speeder running that intersection, and it doesn't have a "safety" camera. I haven't been ticketed, and haven't had a ticket in decades, but this intersection defeats (in my opinion) there is a safety component to the camera(s).
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lrisner
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Joined: May 26 2009 Status: Offline Points: 330 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 4:36pm |
This is the whole issue for me! I simply can not believe that the Yellows were not shorter that the they were before in the PREVIOUS Red Light Vendor's Equipment. It is my feeling that as soon as an Intersection got Cameras, the Yellow were shorter. Maybe they were more than the required Minimum before the Cameras went in, I don't know. This time around it may have been done right. The last time I heard a lot complaints and haven't so far this time. As to the "Formula", why not avoid controversy and make the Yellows a little more than the minimum? Ticketing anyone other than the Blatant Red Light Violator will be a strike against the Cameras. |
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spiderjohn
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Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 5:08pm |
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No surprise my way.
I have known Major Hoffman for probably 30 years.
He has always been a straight-up honest no-agenda person.
AND I was on board with the Citizens' Advisory Board to the Police Dept. when the camera discussions began. I was very strongly against this concept strictly because of the "big brother" aspect. Flick another switch, and these cameras can photo/ticket you for speeding and lord only knows what else. During my tenure on that board, I was hardly a "yes man" or "rubber stamp" for the dept. Major Hoffman, Chiefs Schwarber,Bruck and Becker had strong discussions on MANY topics. To their credit, all of those involved from the dept. were calm and reasonable(well.....) with everyone walking away as friends at the meetings' conclusion. That board owes so much to the efforts of the dept. to make it work in an honestly difficult situation.
I am now a firm believer in these cameras because overall, they DO save lives and serious injury.
And yes--I have been cited(one of the first, along with former chief Becker) at the Highland/Grand intersection.
Thank you Major for your time and explanations.
Hopefully more city officials will do the same here, and realize that the people posting here are hardly "the enemy" and nut cases(well....again) that many imply.
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tomahawk35
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Joined: Nov 18 2008 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 223 |
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Posted: Jul 17 2009 at 11:37pm |
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I have a question for you Major Hoffman and maybe you can clear this up for me because it has bothered me for a long time. I call the police station back a couple of years ago complaining about speeders on my street of residence and was told that the lack of manpower prohibited them from stationing a patrolman on our street which in return I ask if I could video this action and turn it in which I was told without the police actually seeing the speeders they couldn't do anything. This is the part that really bothers me, aren't the cameras supplying the same info that I offered yet tickets are issued without a patrolman actually being there. In my mind there seems to be a double standard and doesn't the accuse have the right to face their accuser in a court of law. I would appreciate it if you could put my mind at ease about this troubling situation. Thank You
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Major Hoffman
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Joined: Jan 21 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Posted: Jul 18 2009 at 1:04am |
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tomahawk35:
Regular traffic ordinances, as minor misdemeanors, generally require the offense be committed in the officer's presence. This is the case with speeding as well as traditional red light citations that are issued by an officer. The ordinance that covers red light camera citations is a different ordinance than the regular traffic ordinance and is written so that a citation can be issued on the basis of the photographic and video evidence. In other words, there are actually two different ordinances that cover red light running - one traffic, which is issued by an officer and requires the officer witness the violation, and one civil, which is the one that governs the red light cameras.
As for facing the accuser, anyone who receives a red light camera citation can contest the charge in front of a magistrate. The photos and video are reviewed and interpreted by an officer trained on the system and the magistrate makes a decision. This provides the due process that is required for any legal action. The evidence on red light camera citations is always convincing and there is no doubt the violation occurred. Typically, successful challenges to the citations come from drivers who testify that they were in an emergency situation, or weather conditions were such that they could not stop or something aside from the fact that they ran the light. These are known as "affimative defenses" - the offender admits the facts of the case, but has a valid, legal reason for taking the action that resulted in the violation. Very few drivers contest these citations, primarily because it is difficult to dispute a photograph and video of the violation.
On a related note, if an officer observes a violation that is also captured by the camera, the offender receives the traffic citation from the officer and not civil citation from the camera. That is part of the ordinance and avoids a double jeapardy issue.
Hopefully this answers your questions and puts your mind at ease.
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Nick_Kidd
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Joined: May 15 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 112 |
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Posted: Jul 18 2009 at 9:42am |
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Major Hoffman,
Thanks for speaking up about the red light cameras. If all that you said above is true then I don't understand how the following happened, maybe you can explain.
1. The Madison Life Squad was given a red light ticket for trying to save a life. At the time 80% of the ticket went to the camera company. So the $20 Middletown would have received was more important to the city than the patients life.
2. The yellow light at Marshal Road and Roosevelt Blvd. was timed with a digital camera to be two seconds or less. At the speed limit and the steel trucks coming through that intersection, I'm surprised that there was not a fatal accident. (Several other yellow lights were timed and all appeared to be shorter than required by the State. Could this explain the red light runners and accidents?)
3. There were several tickets issued to people that got stopped at the red lights. They took a day off work to go court. With the picture plainly showing that they did not run the red light, they though that the case would be thrown out. But no, they had to pay the $100 fine and come to court on another day to prove their innocence. After two days off work and finally proving with the city's picture that they had been falsely ticketed they were rewarded with having to pay $60 court cost. How many times were false tickets sent out? Did the city figure that most people would pay the $100 ticket rather then take days of work and then get robbed anyway? Or were the different people that looked at the pictures all incompetent? In my opinion there is no excuse for issueing a false ticket or for the malicious prosecution that comes from it.
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Government is not the answer to problems, government is the problem.
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accuro
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Joined: May 31 2009 Status: Offline Points: 103 |
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Posted: Jul 18 2009 at 10:09am |
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Mr. Kidd, to your point: If what you are stating is correct, the issue becomes is the timer on the intersections set prematurely. About 7 years ago, I was driving on Rt 4, and the light was yellow when I went through the intersection. Any professional safety officer will teach any driver, when the light is yellow, you have to commit to the intersection, that is, go through it at yellow.
In my scenario, the matter occurred right by the light at the State Highway Patrol Office. I received my ticket, and went to court to face. Prior to this, I went to time the period from the change from green to yellow to red. It was less than 3 seconds. Next, I called the Ohio Department of Transportation and their engineering department, and they gave me the precise time by Ohio statute, the change from green to yellow to red transpired. At this intersection, it was set improperly. I went to court and prevailed. To your point: yes, the concept of course, is in a criminal matter, the expectation is the fine will be paid. Major Hoffman, I do not understand how an allegation of running a light is civil; its a M5 I believe in the criminal Ohio statute and I would be most curious to know what ordinance states running a red light is civil in nature. Although either civil or criminal is still an annoyance, running a criminal violation through the civil magistrate court would not seem to be correct. As for safety, my position is the worst intersection for actual chronic running of red lights is at Breiel and Rosedale. Yet, there is no camera there. Further, its a danger because the motorist has to drive in reverse about 15 yards backward, to properly trigger the light. I respectfully disagree this is an issue associated with safety, and the camera appearance discourages many from driving through Middletown. Thanks for your responses. |
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An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out. - Will Rogers
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Major Hoffman
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Joined: Jan 21 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Posted: Jul 20 2009 at 10:41am |
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Mr. Kidd;
1. We are not able to find in our records where a Madison life squad was ever issued a citation. When an emergency vehicle triggers the system and the citation process begins, the reviewers check to see if the emergency lights were operating. If they were, the citation is not issued. If they were not, we contact the agency in question and they research the call the vehicle was responding to and let us know if it was of a nature that warranted an emergency response. This is the process that would have been followed if the Madison life squad ran a red light. Additionally, it is not and has never been an 80/20 split.
2. I will pass your information on the length of yellow at Marshall and Roosevelt on to the traffic engineer. Also, if you give me the list of the several other yellow lights that were timed and appeared to be shorter than required by the State I will have her check these. I do know that the yellow was checked at each of the intersections where a camera was installed, and each of those meets or exceeds State requirements.
3. There are no court costs on red light camera citations, whether they are found guilty or not. The only thing they pay with a guilty finding is the amount of the citation. If someone told you they had to go to court on a red light camera violation, and paid $60 in court costs, they were not being truthful.
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Major Hoffman
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Joined: Jan 21 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Posted: Jul 20 2009 at 10:44am |
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Accuro:
The ordinance that governs automated red light violations is Chapter 418 of the Codified Ordinances of the City of Middletown. This is the section that makes it a civil infraction. The ordinance that covers red light violations issued by an officer, and not involving the camera, is found in Chapter 414. Two separate ordinances, one civil and one traffic.
A check of the accidents at Breiel and Rosedale shows 3 in 2006, 4 in 2007 and 7 in 2008. So, while you may see a lot of violations, there is not an overly high number of accidents occurring there. The goal, remember, is to lower the number of accidents, not to just issue mass citations. The first step in the intersection selection process is to identify those with a lot of accidents; Breiel and Rosedale does not meet that first requirement.
I drive through that intersection several times a day, and you are correct, that is a frustratingly long light. I typically make a right turn on red there, so I am not familiar with having to roll back and forth to trigger the light. Is that primarily when travelling Westbound? I will have the traffic engineer check on that.
I'm also surprised that the system would discourage people from driving through Middletown. It seems that many look at this issue from the wrong side; they appear to believe that they will get a citation for not running a light, instead of thinking the cameras will deter the other driver from running a light and colliding with them, thus making this city a safer place to drive. It's a matter of perspective.
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Nick_Kidd
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Joined: May 15 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 112 |
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Posted: Jul 20 2009 at 11:22am |
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Major Hoffman;
1. Your records are incomplete or else this ticket for the Madison Life Sqaud was swept under the rug.
2. The city should know if the timing of all yellow lights are within the state required timing.
3. You are either uninformed or do not know how our kangaroo court works. I will be happy to tell these citizens that did nothing wrong that not only did they get a false ticket and abused by the court but now they have been called liars.
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Government is not the answer to problems, government is the problem.
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Hermes
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 19 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1637 |
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Posted: Jul 20 2009 at 11:44am |
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Nick,I think Major Hoffmans' answers are text book. He is a policeman first and foremost.
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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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spiderjohn
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Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jul 20 2009 at 1:18pm |
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wow--I thought that the Major's answers were very clear and helpful.
He really can't answer in detail if he doesn't have the facts.
Mr.Kidd--I think you are way overboard with the tone and insinuations of your post. Maybe YOU should provide exact details so the situation can be further clarified.
We get a real city person here, answering good ?s accurately, and the crap/bad-mouthing happens.
Pretty pathetic imo
but jmo
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