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We Bail Them out then get screwed

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Pacman View Drop Down
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    Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 7:13am
July 2, 2009

Bank Fees Rise as Lenders Try to Offset Losses

Bounced check: $32. Stop-payment: $30. A.T.M. charge: as high as $3.

Even now, after all those bailouts, banks never seem to tire of dipping a little deeper into your wallet. Despite the tough economic times and increased scrutiny from Washington, they are keeping most fees at record highs, and are eking out slight increases on others like overdraft charges — a step they rarely took during past recessions.

The result? Americans are paying more to save and spend their money.

And while the increases are still relatively small by historical standards, they illustrate how banks are looking for almost any nugget of income to help offset huge loan losses and lower revenue as consumers buckle down on spending.

The nation’s biggest banks — those that received the biggest bailouts from taxpayers, and are once again gaining strength — charge fees that are on average at least 20 percent higher than those at smaller lenders, according to Moebs Services, a economic research firm used by banks and federal regulators.

Some of the charges are getting more creative. Several big banks — including JPMorgan Chase, US Bancorp and Wells Fargo & — recently began billing some small-business customers for federal deposit insurance increases. Citigroup and PNC Financial assess around a 3 percent international transaction fee when customers swipe their debit cards overseas.

Bank of America recently introduced a raft of changes. In June, it raised the fees on its basic monthly checking account to $8.95 from $5.95. In April, the bank considered raising its overdraft charge to $39, nearly double what the typical bank charged a decade ago. It backed down only after an eruption of consumer complaints, tweaking its rules to keep its initial fee at $35.

And then there are credit cards: banks are scrambling to raise rates and fees before a credit card reform bill that President Obama signed into law last month takes effect. JPMorgan Chase recently announced it would raise some balance transfer fees to 5 percent, from 3 percent, in August. Citigroup, Bank of America and other lenders have also been raising the interest rates for millions of cardholders.

Over all, fees at the biggest banks are running at their highest levels on record. The average A.T.M. charge, which generates billions of dollars for banks annually, rose at the end of 2008 to $1.97, up from $1.78 the year before and nearly double the 89-cent average recorded in 1998, according to Bankrate.com.

Other charges are more eye-popping: today’s typical $30 stop-payment fee is about twice as much as a decade ago, according to Moebs.

But the most unexpected change has occurred in overdraft fees — the industry’s most lucrative and controversial charge — where the typical fee rose to $26 after five years at $25.

That is only a modest 4 percent increase, compared with the double-digit overdraft fee increases a few years ago, when charges rose to $25 from $22. But amid intense scrutiny from regulators and lawmakers, consumer advocates — and even some bankers— are surprised.

“We’ve never seen a price increase during a recession,” said Michael Moebs, the chief economist and founder of the research firm that analyzed the fee data at more than 2,200 lenders. “What the bankers are saying is that I want to maintain my revenue.”

Scott E. Talbott, a lobbyist for the Financial Services Roundtable, said that the banks’ fees reflect the cost of providing those services and the rise in overdraft charges reflects increased risk. “There is an increased riskiness around repayment because of the recession,” he added.

Most banks have been reluctant to raise overdraft fees or have made subtle but potentially lucrative changes to how they are assessed. Bankers are worried about criticism from Washington and would rather find ways to bolster profits under the radar.

For instance, many banks already generate rich profits by charging consumers high interest rates for loans, while keeping interest rates paid on money market and checking accounts low — a trend that has become more acute as the Federal Reserve keeps rates near zero to help stoke an economic recovery.

But that may not be enough. Large banks, which tend to charge the highest fees, incur a range of expenses that smaller banks do not, including high nationwide advertising bills and the costs of operating networks of A.T.M.’s and retail branches. Many smaller banks are also struggling now more than ever to offset losses and dwindling revenue.

And as consumers themselves rein in their finances, raising the overdraft fee has become an easy option. With fewer customers overdrawing their accounts, overdraft fees risk shrinking to a smaller income stream from what Moebs estimates is a $38.5 billion business this year. That is, unless banks raise fees on customers who run into trouble.

Aaron Fine, a retail banking consultant at Oliver Wyman, said that overdraft fee income could fall 5 to 20 percent for some banks in the second and third quarter. “That is the multibillion-dollar question,” he said. “How do you replace those fees with something else?”

Two large regional banks, which have been hit hard by the recession, appear to be struggling to find answers.

KeyCorp, a regional lender based in Cleveland, raised its overdraft fee by 50 cents to a dollar for repeat offenders in the last few months, bringing its maximum charge to as much as $39. Comerica, which has big operations in Michigan and California, raised similar fees by approximately $2 to $3 when it introduced a tiered fee structure that charges $25 to $37 as the number of offenses increase.

Regulators and lawmakers say they plan to crack down on excessive service fees, just as they did with a new bill barring unfair credit card practices. Federal Reserve officials have proposed new rules that would let debit and A.T.M. customers “opt in” for overdraft protection, or allow existing customers to opt out of the service.

Representative Carolyn B. Maloney, Democrat of New York, introduced more stringent legislation this spring requiring banks to notify customers before they overdraw their accounts.

Of course, consumers do not have to be taken in. Consumer advocates suggest comparing the fees charged by big banks with those of credit unions and community lenders in a given area. When possible, use an A.T.M. in the bank’s network. And if you do incur fees, ask your bank manager about waiving them.

Greg McBride, a senior financial analyst at BankRate.com, said that as banking fees head into overdrive, consumers simply need to be more alert. “We will have to be on our toes to avoid getting tripped up,” he said.


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Hermes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 3:49pm
Actually,and this will sound insane to most,I don't see a problem with what the banks are doing. America is a captalist country,so making money is our prime directive and making it the best way possible is good management. You have a business and the government hands you billions plus you milk the public for more,thats very intelligent. No idiots in the banking business.
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by Pacman Pacman wrote:

Hermes what is the difference between what the banks are doing and what the pay day loan industry was doing, still good old fashion capitalism.

Pacman,the pay day loan problem was or is over the edge with what they are doing. The pay day loan people were making a fast buck on the backs of the poor and indigent. Banks are business people,they are in it for the long haul. They (the banks) provide a service that none of us can live without. There is a big difference between how the two operate. Everyone screams about over-draft fees I say don't get over drawn and you won't have a problem. The very people who are constantly in over-drafts are the very ones screaming. Banks can not allow people to sit there and write bad checks every week. So high fees are similar to a traffic fine,you speed you get a ticket,you get over drawn and you get a fine,nothing complicated about any of it.
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 4:21pm
So payday loans businesses are not business people, I am sure they would dispute that.  When you overdraw you account for whatever reason and the Bank pays the highest check first and then charges a $39.00 overdraft fee for each of the next 7 checks, when they could have paid the 7 checks and charged you the overdraft on the one larger check,  I find something wrong with that.  I am sure the bank would fire you as a customer if you did this weekly.
I was behind a lady at Fifth Third that this happen to, it shocked me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lrisner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Pacman Pacman wrote:

So payday loans businesses are not business people, I am sure they would dispute that.  When you overdraw you account for whatever reason and the Bank pays the highest check first and then charges a $39.00 overdraft fee for each of the next 7 checks, when they could have paid the 7 checks and charged you the overdraft on the one larger check,  I find something wrong with that.  I am sure the bank would fire you as a customer if you did this weekly.
I was behind a lady at Fifth Third that this happen to, it shocked me.


Good Business? Come on! It is one thing to honestly try and make a profit, it is a whole other Ball Game when Institutions resort to "trickery" to make a buck.

 My own financial Institution made a small change which could have well meant Fees to someone a little casual about their Account. The only notice was a comment in a useless little Newsletter that I, myself never waste time reading. The change was without a doubt nothing more than an opportunity to bust someone for Fees. No one will convince me otherwise. I let it be known that I found it distasteful, but stopped short of changing Banks as they all are equally distrustful these days.

I fear that this "distasteful" attitude is indicative of our society as a whole and might well be behind the problems plaguing Middletown.  A little out there? Maybe, but consider that a lack of Honor could well cause a Public Servant to do things that would have been unlikely to happen decades ago. How many Professional City Managers would see Middletown as nothing more than a Resume Builder and thus be unwilling to do anything other than "keep a finger in the Dike", so to speak. The public Servant could well be gone and in a new, more lucrative job while all of us Home Towners are dealing with a severely leaking Dike! That is why it is so important to not allow distaseful actions or unhaded business practices to go unanswered.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by Pacman Pacman wrote:

So payday loans businesses are not business people, I am sure they would dispute that.  When you overdraw you account for whatever reason and the Bank pays the highest check first and then charges a $39.00 overdraft fee for each of the next 7 checks, when they could have paid the 7 checks and charged you the overdraft on the one larger check,  I find something wrong with that.  I am sure the bank would fire you as a customer if you did this weekly.
I was behind a lady at Fifth Third that this happen to, it shocked me.
No pay day loan people are not business people or even people as far as I am concerned. Look at who owns these franchises,football players,baseball players,mafia,crooked business men and the list goes on. No Pacman they are far from legitimate business people. The pay day loan business is far from legitimate,it got it's start in New York city with Mob backing,only they don't go out and break arms and legs they just get you into perpetual debt.
As for the way banks pay the checks,if you don't write more checks than you have money in your account you can avoid that problem. People have a very misunderstanding of how a checking account works. Basic banking isn't taught in any school and I understand how people are so uneducated when it comes to issueing a simple check to pay debts.
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote da120757 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 9:28pm
I used my debit/atm card as a Visa card at Krogers today and there is a hold on it and a charge of $4.00 what the heck is this all about?  Speedway does the same thing???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 10:11pm
There are all kinds of fees the Honest Capitalist banks use to take your money.  I like the one where the merchant swipes your card and the Bank oks the purchase and then charges a $39.00 over limit fee when they knew all along you would go over your limit and the bank should have declined the purchase.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lrisner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 02 2009 at 11:14pm
Originally posted by Pacman Pacman wrote:

There are all kinds of fees the Honest Capitalist banks use to take your money.  I like the one where the merchant swipes your card and the Bank oks the purchase and then charges a $39.00 over limit fee when they new all along you would go over your limit and should have declined the purchase.



I had a friend get busted with that recently!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 03 2009 at 11:06am
Originally posted by da120757 da120757 wrote:

I used my debit/atm card as a Visa card at Krogers today and there is a hold on it and a charge of $4.00 what the heck is this all about?  Speedway does the same thing???
Gas stations do it too,if you buy $10 worth of gasoline your account is charged usually for about $45.00,after a 2 day hold they get their 10 bucks. Now this is done by the gas station not the banks. Probably the same way for Krogers. Your $4 charge was probably to cover the action by Krogers. This is very typical and again it's an uneducated public that finds it all so shocking,get educated people,check into these things and ask questions !! Throw those debit cards in the trash,they are nothing but trouble !!
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 03 2009 at 11:16am
Originally posted by Pacman Pacman wrote:

There are all kinds of fees the Honest Capitalist banks use to take your money.  I like the one where the merchant swipes your card and the Bank oks the purchase and then charges a $39.00 over limit fee when they knew all along you would go over your limit and the bank should have declined the purchase.
Pacman,again a debit card is not a credit card. A credit card will decline if it's over limit or reached it's max or whatever,a debit card will not. A debit card is an open line to your bank account. There's nothing there to stop a purchase from going through. Again throw those worthless things in the trash or accept the fees and quit screaming,but no one will throw them away because you've been brainwashed into thinking you can't live without it,well guess what,you can live without it. My wife and I done away with debit cards and credit cards 12 years ago,we've never been stressed by the banking business since. We don't pay fees and we are never over-drawn,we use cash & some times money orders to pay bills. SHRED THOSE BANK CARDS !!! STOP PAYING FEES !!! LIVE FREE !!
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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randy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote randy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 03 2009 at 11:17am
Are you sure this was nothing to do with your bank ? i have never seen such a charge and i always use my  me debit card
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