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Highlands HIstoric District
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swohio75 View Drop Down
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Points: 820 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swohio75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 31 2009 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:


The question still remains about why the ORIGINAL wing of Middletown Hospital, without a doubt the MOST historic structure in Mr. Michel's area, was allowed to be demolished before the "historic religion" began to be preached.


It's my understanding that the original 1915 hospital building was long gone well prior to the discussion of moving the hospital and tearing down the old.
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swohio75 View Drop Down
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Points: 820 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swohio75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 31 2009 at 9:58pm
Consider this.

South Main Historic District - which is listed as a district on the National Register of Historic Places (HHD currently is only receiving local designation by local ordinance) - was added to the Register in 1974. The only structure on South Main individually listed on the NRHP is the Tytus Mansion.

If you use the construction dates of these homes as provided in the Historic Preservation Plan of Middletown, Ohio, and you look solely at those structures not listed as intrusions, calculate their age at the time of the district being listed, and then calculate the average of all structures, it comes to 89 years at the time of listing--and this includes several commercial structures on Main Street.

According to information provided to council, the average age of the homes included in the HHD is 73. So we are talking 16 years difference. This average includes intrusions, which I did not use to calculate my average for SMHD.

I makes more sense, seeing how 88% of the buildings in HHD are 50 or plus years in age, which is one of the qualifications for the National Register, to create a district than to have each home have local designation.

The only individual structures that have local designation (to my knowledge) are 1.) Doty House on Curtis 2.) Middletown Firehouse on Crawford and 3.) Middletown Pioneer Cemetery.

I would rather try to put into place a preservation plan for the HHD district while still a stable neighborhood than to wait until it starts to decline, which is pretty much what happened to South Main.

Just because I advocate for creating this district, doesn't mean that I don't believe there are other structures and districts that could merit local (and perhaps national) designation in Middletown.
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viper771 View Drop Down
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Yeah I agree Vivian. I do think there are TOO MANY newer homes on that list. I think the old cemetery should be saved and taken care of. I drive past it all the time but I haven't gone in there yet to check it out.
 
We have been working on the house. I hope by next year I can repoint and maybe start some repainting or something. Been too busy with the important stuff right now to make it look nice :) but it will be great one day.
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Viper,

    I think a historic district with this many newer homes takes away from the importance of an older historic district...jmo   
    Several small cemeteries have already been moved. The Middletown Cemetery is the largest and the oldest and we really need to save it.
    I drove past your old house yesterday and it’s looking good.
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viper771 View Drop Down
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Points: 221 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote viper771 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 31 2009 at 3:06am
The whole reason why I moved to Middletown was to fix up and old house. I would like my house to be declared historic one day. I don't think a house from the 50s should be historic YET.. maybe when it becomes 80 years old or so. I think the cutoff should be the 30s. I don't think I would want to live in a house that was stuck in the 70s era forever.
 
Hopefully something good happens with the vault Vivian! Up in Lima, some of the old cemeteries were just "moved", and they built a Lowe's and Menard's on the ground :( The only thing that remains is a little sign that talks about the cemetary as you enter the parking lot.
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TudorBrown View Drop Down
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Points: 265 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TudorBrown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 30 2009 at 4:24am
Originally posted by Vivian Moon Vivian Moon wrote:

Wasteful
On September 24, 2009 at 10 am I will put my case before the State of Ohio


Thank you!
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Bobbie View Drop Down
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Points: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bobbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 12:35pm

I agree with Vivian.  A lot of people when they buy an old home like to restore it back to the original features to a degree.  They also want the extras that are available now on homes.  But homes that were built in the 50's or later - probably want to be able to upgrade their homes (especially homes in the 70's).

Wastful - sometimes it is just about doing what is right.  I don't expect a school to teach students about local history - however families do pass this information down to their children.  It is not right for the city to make everyone keep up their properties and not their own.  The vault is not a new issue that they just realized - it is something they have known about for along time that they put on the back burner.  The vault has more history then some of the houses that they are wanting to designate historical. 

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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 12:26pm
Wasteful
I have always had a love of history and old buildings.
Many people in Middletown do not want the vault torn down.
Every city around us is restoring their cemeteries...why not Middletown?
On September 24, 2009 at 10 am I will put my case before the State of Ohio
and they can decide what needs to happen next with the cemetery.
If they tear down the Vault do you really believe they will take better care of the cemetery? Do you really believe they will plant flowers and paint the park benches?  I don't think so......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 7:49am

Vet
   I’m having a real problem understand this….
   I have worked on and in many residential historic districts in the tri-state area and I have NEVER seen an age difference like this. All the residential historic districts that I have worked in are homes built no later than about 1900.
   I could understand this better if it was just a few blocks however this is a huge area to be declared historic.    
   And then we have the homeowners of these newer homes. Do they really want all these restrictions placed on their homes? Will all these restriction on these newer homes devalue and make it more difficult for them to sell their properties later? Do they really understand that once their home is declared historic that they can’t put on a new roof or outside light fixture without the permission of Mr. Ashworth & Mr. Kohler? Did ALL 66 residents sign a petition to be included in this proposed district?
    Something about this is just not sitting right with my three little gray cells. More research is needed.
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wasteful View Drop Down
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Points: 793 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wasteful Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 7:19am
Vivian I am not disagreeing with the fact that the City needs to step up and maintain the Cemetery.  I am just saying rather than drag this out, a little compromise might go a long way.  I don't see a lot of residents getting excited over whether the Vault is there or whether you take the money you can get and build a nice garden or seating area on the spot.
 
Schools don't even want to teacher U.S. History anymore I don't see them taking the time to delve into local history, when  most kids don't even originate from Middletown to start off with.
 
I know I  lived in many different cities as a kid and would have had no interest in learning about the History of each City I lived in.  Maybe your expectations on some of these issues are to high.
 
 
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VietVet View Drop Down
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Points: 7008 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 7:10am
Good questions Vivian- IMO, SOME of the homes in the old hospital area are certainly worth attention and are LOCALLY historic- ie the Hook mansion on The Alameda. I certainly wouldn't call a former Armco VP's home historic in that area. A founding industrialist like Sorg- certainly historic. Can the whole area be designated historic even though the history on some of the homes have no historical significance? Are there South Main St. area homes that have no historical value, yet the whole area is deemed "historic"? Isn't it more logical to take the homes on an individual basis within a given area? JMO What is the terminology/criteria that defines/qualifies a home/area for this? Do ALL of these "old hospital area homes" meet this criteria?
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 6:45am
Wasteful
Now and then you need to stand up and fight for what you really believe in.
Now and then the City needs to just do the right thing for the citizens of this city.
The vault is the focal point the very heart of this cemetery. This is the most historic and intact area in the City. Hundreds of people from all over the US visit this cemetery every year.
They need to show some respect for the founders and veterans of this City and restore the vault and maintain the cemetery. 
The schools needs to use this cemetery as a teaching tool of local history. 
And we wonder why our children know nothing about US history..Confused
   
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 6:27am

"One of the benefits of a historic district is that owners of homes will not have to apply individually to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places and incur the expense associated with this process."

    Very few of the 66 homes in this proposed historic district could be listed on the National Register of Historic Places.
So why are all these home owners wanting to be part of a historic district? 
Why is this historic area so large?
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TudorBrown View Drop Down
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Points: 265 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TudorBrown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 24 2009 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by Vivian Moon Vivian Moon wrote:

Do you think all of these houses belong in a historic district?

PROPOSED HIGHLANDS HISTORIC DISTRICT
Decade homes were built......Number of homes constructed
1890s………………………………………………………..2
1900s…………………………………………………………3
1910s……………………………………………………….13
1920s………………………………………………………17
1930s………………………………………………………..4
1940s………………………………………………………..5
1950s………………………………………………………14
1960s………………………………………………………..0
1970s………………………………………………………..6
1980s………………………………………………………..1
1990s………………………………………………………..0
2000s………………………………………………………..1
TOTAL                                             66 Homes


I'm not arguing for or against this idea, although I would like to add: America's best homes were built in the 1920's.
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 24 2009 at 6:53pm
Do you think all of these houses belong in a historic district?

PROPOSED HIGHLANDS HISTORIC DISTRICT
Decade homes were built......Number of homes constructed
1890s………………………………………………………..2
1900s…………………………………………………………3
1910s……………………………………………………….13
1920s………………………………………………………17
1930s………………………………………………………..4
1940s………………………………………………………..5
1950s………………………………………………………14
1960s………………………………………………………..0
1970s………………………………………………………..6
1980s………………………………………………………..1
1990s………………………………………………………..0
2000s………………………………………………………..1
TOTAL                                             66 Homes
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 3:43pm

Spiderjohn
Major changes will be taking place over the next few months and I will miss your wisdom. I hope you will join us again after the election to discuss our new City Council.   
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2000+ View Drop Down
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This may be said another post; if so, I missed it - for those of you who wanted the old hospital's little brick wall torn down (corner of Florence and Sherman), the reason it is staying up is because that is the wall where the Highlands Historic District plaquard will be displayed...just rumor at this point...
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spiderjohn View Drop Down
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Streets/infrastructure
Storm/waste sewers
cemetary
the former downtown
Section 8/HUD/CDBG
Economic Development
Business retention
 
 
STEP UP ON ELECTION DAY!!
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accuro View Drop Down
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sj, point well made. The floodgates will open. I recall my home was built by a gentleman who's family had four generations of read admirals that went back to the McCain family, hence, my home and neighborhood must therefore be historic. I've given this more thought. I like the name of Monticello District in honor of the builder of the houses in my neighborhood from Virginia. How is "historic" defined? Is it by age? Mine's 50 years old, so what's the cut-off. And what about the modern homes built in Highland Park? Are just victorian homes deemed historic? Or should the Frank Lloyd Wright look house designed by the Tasmanain Architectural group out of Scottsdale be deemed historic. Well, I have my neighborhood earmarked. I know Currier & Thornhill will want theirs branded. And of course, DaVinci will want theirs marked historic, especially with the age of the oak trees. 
An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out. - Will Rogers
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wasteful View Drop Down
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Vivian it has absolutely nothing to do where my family is buried.  I will agree with you If, If and more if's.....but that does not change the facts that the City didn't.  If the city starts to take care of the cemetery now and I agree they should have all along, this matter is pretty much closed.   If the City decides to tear down the vault it is their property.  Maybe a nice seating area with Park benches and flowers or trees can be put in that spot, with the Middletown Community Foundation money if it is still available.  I know you have put a lot of time, money and energy into this project, but why spend your remaining days fighting the city over it when a compromise could be reached and maybe a place to sit and think about the wonderful people who are laid to rest there. 
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 12:18pm

Ahh Wasteful
Now we are to the meat of the problem…If the City had been taking care of the cemetery the Vault would not need to be restored...If the City had been taking care of the cemetery it would not have become an unsightly weed field littered with broken stones and  I wouldn’t have spent the last 5 years and a bunch of money cleaning the mess up….If your family was buried in this cemetery it would really matter to you.

 
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wasteful View Drop Down
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The City's idea and your idea of taking care of the Cemetery is obviously two different things.  If the City decides to tear down the Vault and then maintain the Cemetery in a well kept fashion, I don't see where you would have much of an argument left against the City.
 
 
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 11:27am
Here is the link to HUD Historic Preservation information.
It's a reeealy great read
http://www.hud.gov/offices/cpd/environment/library/subjects/preservation/index.cfm
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 11:04am
Accuro
    My current problem with the City is because Mr. Kohler said if I would get  the Middletown Cemetery declared historic I would be given CDBG funds to restore the vault. In 2006 the City Council declared the cemetery historic and Mr. Kohler did not submit the paperwork for CDBG funds to restore the vault. Yet these are the same funds that have been used to restore many buildings in the downtown area and the historic district. Now I'm told by the City that even though the vault has been declared historic and a local landmark this offers NO protection what so ever...so now the City wants the vault torn down. 
    Since the Middletown Cemetery is the most historic 11 acre in Middletown and owned by the City why wouldn't the City want to save it? Why is the downtown more important even though it has less historic value? You will also notice that the Middletown Historic Society has NOT spoken out on this issue.
    The Highland District has went before the Council of Landmarks and Historic Districts....however it still needs to go before the City Council to be voted upon before it becomes a "Historic District".
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Kohler decides too much in this town. That's part of the reason why it's in the condition it's in. With Kohler (and Mulligan) living in a designated historic district themselves, isn't it a conflict of interest for him to determine which areas of Middletown are historic? Should he be involved with making decisions with respect to historic areas especially when it involves money allocations to these areas as with South Main St.??? He benefitted by living in the South Main area by receiving money for his property didn't he? Did he have a hand in this decision and, if so, is this ethical? Are there credentials that one must have to determine what is historic or not or does the city just "deem" someone able to determine historic criteria? What are Kohler/Ashworth's credentials that make them the "historic area designators"? Are there legal guidelines to determine who is qualified and, if so, are they being followed in this city? If not, is there any legal recourse? If Kohler and Ashworth are making decisions that involve the use of taxpayer money- be it local, state or federal money- shouldn't the public be allowed to challenge those decisions? Where is the balance to all of this?
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