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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 22 2009 at 3:43pm

Spiderjohn
Major changes will be taking place over the next few months and I will miss your wisdom. I hope you will join us again after the election to discuss our new City Council.   
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Do you think all of these houses belong in a historic district?

PROPOSED HIGHLANDS HISTORIC DISTRICT
Decade homes were built......Number of homes constructed
1890s………………………………………………………..2
1900s…………………………………………………………3
1910s……………………………………………………….13
1920s………………………………………………………17
1930s………………………………………………………..4
1940s………………………………………………………..5
1950s………………………………………………………14
1960s………………………………………………………..0
1970s………………………………………………………..6
1980s………………………………………………………..1
1990s………………………………………………………..0
2000s………………………………………………………..1
TOTAL                                             66 Homes
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Originally posted by Vivian Moon Vivian Moon wrote:

Do you think all of these houses belong in a historic district?

PROPOSED HIGHLANDS HISTORIC DISTRICT
Decade homes were built......Number of homes constructed
1890s………………………………………………………..2
1900s…………………………………………………………3
1910s……………………………………………………….13
1920s………………………………………………………17
1930s………………………………………………………..4
1940s………………………………………………………..5
1950s………………………………………………………14
1960s………………………………………………………..0
1970s………………………………………………………..6
1980s………………………………………………………..1
1990s………………………………………………………..0
2000s………………………………………………………..1
TOTAL                                             66 Homes


I'm not arguing for or against this idea, although I would like to add: America's best homes were built in the 1920's.
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 6:27am

"One of the benefits of a historic district is that owners of homes will not have to apply individually to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places and incur the expense associated with this process."

    Very few of the 66 homes in this proposed historic district could be listed on the National Register of Historic Places.
So why are all these home owners wanting to be part of a historic district? 
Why is this historic area so large?
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 6:45am
Wasteful
Now and then you need to stand up and fight for what you really believe in.
Now and then the City needs to just do the right thing for the citizens of this city.
The vault is the focal point the very heart of this cemetery. This is the most historic and intact area in the City. Hundreds of people from all over the US visit this cemetery every year.
They need to show some respect for the founders and veterans of this City and restore the vault and maintain the cemetery. 
The schools needs to use this cemetery as a teaching tool of local history. 
And we wonder why our children know nothing about US history..Confused
   
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Points: 7008 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 7:10am
Good questions Vivian- IMO, SOME of the homes in the old hospital area are certainly worth attention and are LOCALLY historic- ie the Hook mansion on The Alameda. I certainly wouldn't call a former Armco VP's home historic in that area. A founding industrialist like Sorg- certainly historic. Can the whole area be designated historic even though the history on some of the homes have no historical significance? Are there South Main St. area homes that have no historical value, yet the whole area is deemed "historic"? Isn't it more logical to take the homes on an individual basis within a given area? JMO What is the terminology/criteria that defines/qualifies a home/area for this? Do ALL of these "old hospital area homes" meet this criteria?
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Points: 793 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wasteful Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 7:19am
Vivian I am not disagreeing with the fact that the City needs to step up and maintain the Cemetery.  I am just saying rather than drag this out, a little compromise might go a long way.  I don't see a lot of residents getting excited over whether the Vault is there or whether you take the money you can get and build a nice garden or seating area on the spot.
 
Schools don't even want to teacher U.S. History anymore I don't see them taking the time to delve into local history, when  most kids don't even originate from Middletown to start off with.
 
I know I  lived in many different cities as a kid and would have had no interest in learning about the History of each City I lived in.  Maybe your expectations on some of these issues are to high.
 
 
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 7:49am

Vet
   I’m having a real problem understand this….
   I have worked on and in many residential historic districts in the tri-state area and I have NEVER seen an age difference like this. All the residential historic districts that I have worked in are homes built no later than about 1900.
   I could understand this better if it was just a few blocks however this is a huge area to be declared historic.    
   And then we have the homeowners of these newer homes. Do they really want all these restrictions placed on their homes? Will all these restriction on these newer homes devalue and make it more difficult for them to sell their properties later? Do they really understand that once their home is declared historic that they can’t put on a new roof or outside light fixture without the permission of Mr. Ashworth & Mr. Kohler? Did ALL 66 residents sign a petition to be included in this proposed district?
    Something about this is just not sitting right with my three little gray cells. More research is needed.
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 26 2009 at 12:26pm
Wasteful
I have always had a love of history and old buildings.
Many people in Middletown do not want the vault torn down.
Every city around us is restoring their cemeteries...why not Middletown?
On September 24, 2009 at 10 am I will put my case before the State of Ohio
and they can decide what needs to happen next with the cemetery.
If they tear down the Vault do you really believe they will take better care of the cemetery? Do you really believe they will plant flowers and paint the park benches?  I don't think so......
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
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I agree with Vivian.  A lot of people when they buy an old home like to restore it back to the original features to a degree.  They also want the extras that are available now on homes.  But homes that were built in the 50's or later - probably want to be able to upgrade their homes (especially homes in the 70's).

Wastful - sometimes it is just about doing what is right.  I don't expect a school to teach students about local history - however families do pass this information down to their children.  It is not right for the city to make everyone keep up their properties and not their own.  The vault is not a new issue that they just realized - it is something they have known about for along time that they put on the back burner.  The vault has more history then some of the houses that they are wanting to designate historical. 

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Points: 265 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TudorBrown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 30 2009 at 4:24am
Originally posted by Vivian Moon Vivian Moon wrote:

Wasteful
On September 24, 2009 at 10 am I will put my case before the State of Ohio


Thank you!
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viper771 View Drop Down
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Points: 221 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote viper771 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 31 2009 at 3:06am
The whole reason why I moved to Middletown was to fix up and old house. I would like my house to be declared historic one day. I don't think a house from the 50s should be historic YET.. maybe when it becomes 80 years old or so. I think the cutoff should be the 30s. I don't think I would want to live in a house that was stuck in the 70s era forever.
 
Hopefully something good happens with the vault Vivian! Up in Lima, some of the old cemeteries were just "moved", and they built a Lowe's and Menard's on the ground :( The only thing that remains is a little sign that talks about the cemetary as you enter the parking lot.
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Points: 4187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 31 2009 at 6:28am

Viper,

    I think a historic district with this many newer homes takes away from the importance of an older historic district...jmo   
    Several small cemeteries have already been moved. The Middletown Cemetery is the largest and the oldest and we really need to save it.
    I drove past your old house yesterday and it’s looking good.
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Yeah I agree Vivian. I do think there are TOO MANY newer homes on that list. I think the old cemetery should be saved and taken care of. I drive past it all the time but I haven't gone in there yet to check it out.
 
We have been working on the house. I hope by next year I can repoint and maybe start some repainting or something. Been too busy with the important stuff right now to make it look nice :) but it will be great one day.
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Consider this.

South Main Historic District - which is listed as a district on the National Register of Historic Places (HHD currently is only receiving local designation by local ordinance) - was added to the Register in 1974. The only structure on South Main individually listed on the NRHP is the Tytus Mansion.

If you use the construction dates of these homes as provided in the Historic Preservation Plan of Middletown, Ohio, and you look solely at those structures not listed as intrusions, calculate their age at the time of the district being listed, and then calculate the average of all structures, it comes to 89 years at the time of listing--and this includes several commercial structures on Main Street.

According to information provided to council, the average age of the homes included in the HHD is 73. So we are talking 16 years difference. This average includes intrusions, which I did not use to calculate my average for SMHD.

I makes more sense, seeing how 88% of the buildings in HHD are 50 or plus years in age, which is one of the qualifications for the National Register, to create a district than to have each home have local designation.

The only individual structures that have local designation (to my knowledge) are 1.) Doty House on Curtis 2.) Middletown Firehouse on Crawford and 3.) Middletown Pioneer Cemetery.

I would rather try to put into place a preservation plan for the HHD district while still a stable neighborhood than to wait until it starts to decline, which is pretty much what happened to South Main.

Just because I advocate for creating this district, doesn't mean that I don't believe there are other structures and districts that could merit local (and perhaps national) designation in Middletown.
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Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:


The question still remains about why the ORIGINAL wing of Middletown Hospital, without a doubt the MOST historic structure in Mr. Michel's area, was allowed to be demolished before the "historic religion" began to be preached.


It's my understanding that the original 1915 hospital building was long gone well prior to the discussion of moving the hospital and tearing down the old.
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Consider this.

What has become the oldest home still standing in Middletown does not have local designation and is not a NRHP listed structure.   But certainly has the history associated with it to be considered! Located on Thorn Hill Lane. Constructed in 1825 on S. Broad near VanDerveer, this Federal style home was moved to Thorn Hill Lane in the 1950s.

It is the family home of Ferdinand VanDerveer.

Ferdinand's father, Dr. Peter VanDerveer purchased the home from its builder, Nathaniel White, shortly after its construction. Dr. VanDerveer was one of the first physicians in the area. Ferdinand was born in 1823, so he definitely spent time in this house.

Legend has it that during the Mexican War, as a Captain Ferdinand's company bivouacked near the house on their way south. For a drill, they would march up the front steps, through the central hall and out the back.

By the end of the war, he had risen to the rank of captain and commanded an assaulting column at the Battle of Monterey. While his regiment was being mustered out Van Derveer served as a second to Capt. Carr B. White in a duel with Lt. Fyffe over promotion White's prmotion to captain. Van Derveer returned home after the war and resumed his legal career. He served for a number of years as the Sheriff of Butler County, Ohio.
When the Civil War began, Van Derveer organized the 35th Ohio Infantry and became its first colonel. It originally consisted of 921 men, 750 of whom came from Butler County. Before disbanding in September 1864, the 35th Ohio Infantry fought at Mill Springs, Perryville, Stones River, Missionary Ridge, and Chickamauga, during which nearly half the men in the regiment were killed or wounded. In 1864, Van Derveer was appointed Brigadier General of Volunteers and assigned to the IV Corps in Alabama in January 1865.

Ferdinand's sister, Margaretta married the Presbyterian minister in town, and lived the couple lived in the house, which was sold to Dr. Barnitz and his wife in 1864.

Ferdinand was also a successful lawyer in Middletown, and later became Butler County Judge.

Why is not? Probably because its owners have not petitioned. It's in an area that is not at risk for significant decline. So why bother?

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Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

There is a CONDO on Riverview that was owned by George M. Verity, whose achievements equaled those of Mr. Hook and the others mentioned by SWohio75.  Mr. Verity also served as Secretary of Commerce.  Can we make a large area around Riverview an "Historic District"???

Geo M Verity certainly did not own a Condo on Riverview. But his Great-Grandson CW did. And he does have many merits. BUT -- the condo isn't 50 years or more in age. And there are several homes on S. Main that are associated with CW that are already listed.


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Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:


Jerry Lucas's boyhood home was in the 2200 block of Grand Avenue.  Perhaps that should be a "Historic District"???


While the area itself might not warrant historic designation, I would tend to agree that Mr. Lucas's childhood home should be considered worthy of local historic designation.

Again, where is the property owner making the petition?   
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Originally posted by swohio75 swohio75 wrote:

Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:


The question still remains about why the ORIGINAL wing of Middletown Hospital, without a doubt the MOST historic structure in Mr. Michel's area, was allowed to be demolished before the "historic religion" began to be preached.


It's my understanding that the original 1915 hospital building was long gone well prior to the discussion of moving the hospital and tearing down the old.
I respectfully disagree.  If I am not mistaken, the ORIGINAL hospital structure was converted from medical to administrative use, and remained as such throughout all iterations of the hospital.
 
However, I would certainly bow to Mr. Crout's knowledge of the subject.
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Originally posted by swohio75 swohio75 wrote:

Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

There is a CONDO on Riverview that was owned by George M. Verity, whose achievements equaled those of Mr. Hook and the others mentioned by SWohio75.  Mr. Verity also served as Secretary of Commerce.  Can we make a large area around Riverview an "Historic District"???

Geo M Verity certainly did not own a Condo on Riverview. But his Great-Grandson CW did. And he does have many merits. BUT -- the condo isn't 50 years or more in age. And there are several homes on S. Main that are associated with CW that are already listed.
You are absolutely right!!!  I erred.  I sit corrected.
 
However, CW did retain this condo as one of his residences throughout his tenure as Middletown's ONLY Secretary of Commerce, which would stand it in as good a stead as any of the homes in the so-called Highland Historic District.  Did any cabinet members reside ever there?
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Originally posted by swohio75 swohio75 wrote:

Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:


Jerry Lucas's boyhood home was in the 2200 block of Grand Avenue.  Perhaps that should be a "Historic District"???


While the area itself might not warrant historic designation, I would tend to agree that Mr. Lucas's childhood home should be considered worthy of local historic designation.

Again, where is the property owner making the petition?   
Well, as is the case in most all of Middletown, property owners do not have the means or the clout (or sometimes even the knowledge of their property's history) to move their property through the process.  Many also realize that they don't have the "connections" to get past Mr. Ashworth's Commission on Landmarks and Historic Stuff (or whatever it is called).  Nor do many folks realize the financial bonanza that might be available to "historic" stuff (IF Marty is on their side)!!!   But I think that the main reason is:
 
Most Middletonians just have too much COMMON SENSE and too little SNOBBERY to think that their old stuff is "special" or that it should be used as a means to "liberate" hard-earned tax dollars from their less fortunate fellow citizens!
 
Now that you have me thinking about it, just why DOES the boundary of this proposed Historic District seem to "jut out" for what appears to be the sole purpose of including the manager's sqeeze's house in it???  What is "historic" about THAT place???
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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swohio75

    Again...I have never seen the 50 year rule used in a residential area of this size and age range.  (Please provide me with an example) The South Main Street Historic District includes commercial buildings . Out of the 66 homes included in HHD only about 40 homeowners want this district....1/3 of these homes are newer....what about their property rights? I don't believe that they clearly understand the regulations that will be placed on their property?
How many of the homes in HHD on their individual merit could be placed on the National Register?...Answer: Very few.  
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They say that they don't want these "historic" homes divided into apartments!
 
HISTORY QUIZ:
Q:  What house in the proposed district has already once been divided into a THREE-FAMILY TRIPLEX???
 
Clue:  It is on ALEMEDA Circle!!!
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Originally posted by Vivian Moon Vivian Moon wrote:

How many of the homes in HHD on their individual merit could be placed on the National Register?...Answer: Very few.  

 
Fortunately, that's not for you to determine. 
 
Regardless, the NR allows for the creation of districts to be placed on the Register.  While inividual structures might not be eligible, the notion is that the make-up of an entire area could still have merit. 
 
 
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