Middletown Ohio


Find us on
 Google+ and Facebook


 

Home | Yearly News Archive | Advertisers | Blog | Contact Us
Wednesday, May 15, 2024
FORUM CITY SCHOOLS COMMUNITY
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Council retreat waste of time ??
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Council retreat waste of time ??

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Hermes View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: May 19 2009
Location: Middletown
Status: Offline
Points: 1637
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Council retreat waste of time ??
    Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 7:19am

Reading about council retreat January 30th sounds to me like it was a major waste. From the sound of the article nothing was accomplished except to set goals that should be the norm.

The only thing I got out of it is a possible fire & police levy coming soon.
 
Back to Top
VietVet View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: May 15 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 7008
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 7:39am
OK- they talked about public safety and the need to "give the people what we promised them in the last safety levy". But I am intrigued with this "dog park" thing that was discussed. What's that all about? Sounds like a worthy subject and certainly should be on the priority list in a city in the condition that this one is in. I also was very pleased to read that they are going to "restore socioeconomic balance to the city". How about the generalized statement- "various issues related to housing and code enforcement"? What's that mean? More Section 8 and property citations?

Now- none of this crap is going to really happen. It's just "retreat talk" to go through the exercise of discussing "something" to justify the meeting. But, how would they go about "restoring socioeconomic balance to a city that is so skewed to the lower income/poor/destitude side of the scale (by the way, thanks past/ current council for the saturation of Section 8!), and, knowing how unattractive the city is to middle and upper income folks to locate here....... how would one possibly go about doing this in a normal person's lifetime???? Nothing to lure middle/upper income to town to balance it out. Who's fooling who here?

Oh... and how do we know how that the $286 given to each council member will be spent on business lunches, "training" and "dinner meetings"? Who is accountable to the public to see that that is conformed to?
Back to Top
Hermes View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: May 19 2009
Location: Middletown
Status: Offline
Points: 1637
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 7:51am
Vet - You picked up on something that I missed...."give the people what we promised them in the last safety levy". So apparently we didn't get what we paid for by passing that last safety levy !! What happened to the money ??!!!
 
And I'm with you Vet on the $286....sounds to me like that money is being used to pay themselves for going to the retreat. Do council members need an expense account ?
Back to Top
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: Apr 20 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 8:02am
Nothing to lure middle/upper income to town???  Surely you jest!!!
 
Once the word gets out about our new dog park, the new "energy conserving" bike paths, and our new MILLION DOLLAR plus "gateway" (complete with water feature), the high-class, high income, gentrified types will be will be burning up the interstate to get here and bid up the prices of our real estate!!!
 
Well, at least a few "starving artist" types, but hey, council (not this council but some other council) will be happy to authorize more Section 8 vouchers to accommodate them. Clap
 
I wonder if the new "dog park" will have any "Section 8 dog houses" for all of the indigent dogs that will be flocking here??? Wink
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
Back to Top
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: Apr 20 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 8:10am
Originally posted by Hermes Hermes wrote:

Vet - You picked up on something that I missed...."give the people what we promised them in the last safety levy". So apparently we didn't get what we paid for by passing that last safety levy !! What happened to the money ??!!!
 
And I'm with you Vet on the $286....sounds to me like that money is being used to pay themselves for going to the retreat. Do council members need an expense account ?
What happened to the money???  They used it to balance the budget.
 
Hmm...expense accounts should be public records.  I always heard that there were lots of city "business" luncheons and dinners at a now defunct Bar-B-Q joint on Roosevelt.
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
Back to Top
VietVet View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: May 15 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 7008
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 8:46am
Got a few questions on the doggie park. Will this park have a purpose such as greyhound racing? (no gambling please, or we'll raid your little operation, confiscate your dogs and use your winnings for revenue for the city) OR will it just be your typical "run-of-the-mill" doggie park where one can take their beloved pet for a potty break and some exercise? If the latter, I would suggest it be located on the Becker, Armbruster or Mulligan properties. It would be nice to see our councilmembers leading the effort by donating some property to our new doggie park concept. Well, alrighty then..... nothing like setting up some serious priorities for the city in these little retreat sessions!!!!
Back to Top
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: Apr 20 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 8:55am
Let's see...maybe we should run some rough numbers to try to figure out where the Public Safety payroll tax increase money stands.  First, remember that, during the budget discussions PRIOR to the decision to float the tax increase, the chiefs of both police and fire said that they needed about $500,000 year over year increase each to maintain services at the (then) current authorized levels.  Somebody check my math, but that should total somewhere around ONE million per year.
 
Let's work this out for, say, three years:
 
There are what...about 170 police and firemen???  (I'm just estimating on all of these figures!!! Remember, I said a ROUGH ESTIMATE!!!)  And they AVERAGE wnat...say $70,000 per year???  And the largest year-over-year increase was supposed to be the wage increases REQUIRED by contracts.  What would that be???  Let's say 3%, which equals about 9.3% over 3 years.
 
So...170 people times $70,000 times 9.3% equals...ummm...carry the one...add in the age of an old oak tree...mvoe the decimal point a couple of places to the right...no...to the LEFT...
 
Why, that comes up towhat...about $1,106,700???
 
But wait a minute!!!  During those same three years, the tax increase (standing alone) amounted to somewhere between SIX and NINE MILLION!!! 
 
So, the DEDICATED "safety tax increase" brought in over SIX MILLION, bet the increased costs over the then-present levels were only about 1.1 MILLION!!!   What happened to the "other" FIVE MILLION???  I dunno, and I''m sure that it's just a coincidence, but isn't that about what the BUDGET DEFICIT would have been over three years
 
Now, as Barbie once said, "Math is hard!!" So anyone who feels inclined to research the ACTUAL figures, please do so, and PLEASE, correct any errors I might have made!!!
 
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
Back to Top
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: Apr 20 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 8:59am
Vet,  Maybe the city can get those two gals to clean up all the doggie do-do for free???  You know, to stock up for their next fight!!!  LOL LOL LOL LOL
 
 
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
Back to Top
Hermes View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: May 19 2009
Location: Middletown
Status: Offline
Points: 1637
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 10:17am

I think it was very noble for one of them to admit that we never got what we paid for on that last safety levy. (or was that a mere slip of the ole political tongue ?)

Mike - Thats why I asked where's the money. I'm guessing but a copy of the contract with the fire & police unions would probably be a must in order to track the raises and find out exactly what union members recieved in pay & benefits. Plus figure in the amounts for upkeep,vehicles,stations,so on.
 
 
Back to Top
Marianne View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Avatar

Joined: Jul 13 2008
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 165
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marianne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 10:51am
Originally posted by Hermes Hermes wrote:

I think it was very noble for one of them to admit that we never got what we paid for on that last safety levy. (or was that a mere slip of the ole political tongue ?)


 


Hermes, where is that in the article? Who is the "they" that you have in mind? I only look at the online version, but all I see is AJ Smith quoted as saying:

“We need to at least sustain what we told the public we would when they passed our public safety levy a few years ago,” he said. “We promised we would be able to maintain the staffing we had, so we need to work on putting more public safety forces in the street.”

I'm no expert in staffing levels for public safety in Middletown, but it may be just a poorly phrased, or perhaps more likely, poorly quoted statement.

But as phrased, this quote could suggest that fewer officers are on the street since the public safety levy, but I'm not sure that's the case.

Also, I imagine that if folks here have a question about whether staffing levels have changed, that information can be obtained from someone in the fire and police departments who is responsible for knowing those facts.   

Back to Top
Nelson R. Self View Drop Down
MUSA Citizen
MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: Oct 03 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 279
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nelson R. Self Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 11:03am
Perhaps we should withhold further comment until the City Council meeting on 2/16 when Miss Judy and Doug unveil their FY 2010-14 HUD Five-Year PlanConfusedConfused
 
Surely the City's latest version of the "Plan of All Plans" is bound to transform our ailing community into a destination location for home buyers throughout the tri-state area?  LOLLOL
 
Maybe the City will embark upon Phase II of the Housing Code Enforcement blitzkrieg and handout citiations to 2,300 new property ownersConfusedConfused
 
Could it be that yet another HUD Multi-Million Dollar Grant Application is in the offing that will solve numerous housing problems over the next 50 yearsLOLLOL
 
Could it be that more "hefty pay raises" are on the horizon for the poorly paid Community Revitalization Department staff too?  LOLLOL
Back to Top
lrisner View Drop Down
MUSA Citizen
MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: May 26 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 330
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lrisner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 11:06am
NO! on Safety Levy. We need to be prioritizing our Budget. Safety and Infrastructure should be FULLY Funded before a dime is spent on anything else. Then if we need a Middfest Levy, have a vote. Anything less is outright Corruption!
Back to Top
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: Apr 20 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by lrisner lrisner wrote:

NO! on Safety Levy. We need to be prioritizing our Budget. Safety and Infrastructure should be FULLY Funded before a dime is spent on anything else. Then if we need a Middfest Levy, have a vote. Anything less is outright Corruption!
 Irisner:
Too late!!!  The 0.25% increase in the payroll tax, purportely dedicated to public safety, has already passed.  (I believe it was in November of 2007.)  The question was: Where did the money go, and where is it going in this, its third year?
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
Back to Top
Hermes View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: May 19 2009
Location: Middletown
Status: Offline
Points: 1637
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 12:45pm
Thank you Marianne for the correction.
 
AJ did in fact say that according to the article.
 
“We need to at least sustain what we told the public we would when they passed our public safety levy a few years ago,
 
I withdraw my statement and change my plea to temporary insanity. Wacko
Back to Top
Marianne View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Avatar

Joined: Jul 13 2008
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 165
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marianne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by Hermes Hermes wrote:

<FONT size=3 face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Thank you Marianne for the correction.

 
AJ did in fact say that according to the article.

 
“We need to at least sustain what we told the public we would when they passed our public safety levy a few years ago,

 

I withdraw my statement and change my plea to temporary insanity. Wacko


Hermes, he seems to be saying two different things in that quote: on the one hand, we can't be making cuts, because we said when we passed the levy it was to maintain current levels, but he's also calling for more officers on the street. The way it's phrased in the MJ, I could see what you were saying.
Back to Top
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: Apr 20 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 1:53pm
Marianne:
Actually, I remember quite well what was said.  During the budget discussions earlier in the year, the half million (+-) that each of the chiefs mentioned needing was supposed to ADD a couple of people to each department by by filling some of the "authorized but vacant" positions.
 
A few month's later, during the campagn rhetoric in support of the tax increase, that 0.25% increase was supposeddly enough only to "maintain the current manpower levels."
 
I'm sure that anyone who cares to spen the time can find the documentation for this. At the time of the vote on the tax increase, the 0.25% was projected to equal about THREE MILLION per year. I kept asking the question: "what changed in just a few months that took us from A HALF MILLION more for each department per year buying us MORE manpower, to THREE MILLION per year just maintaining the status quo???"  I was never able to get an answer.  In fact, I was never able to find anyone who acted like they understood the question!!!
 
I even asked it of the encumbents at the Forum held at the Sorg Theater just the weekend before the election.  (Somewhere there is a tape of that Forum.)  No one could answer.  (I guess they were "not set up to answer questions at that time."  Big%20smile)
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
Back to Top
A.J. Smith View Drop Down
Outsider
Outsider


Joined: Nov 04 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 8
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A.J. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 2:15pm
By Ryan Gauthier, Staff Writer Updated 12:07 PM Friday, February 5, 2010

MIDDLETOWN — Public safety. Finances. Infrastructure.

In four simple words, Middletown City Council outlined its goals for the year.

During the group’s annual retreat on Saturday, Jan. 30, council members and city staff shared highlights of the past year while looking ahead to potential concerns in 2010.

Vice Mayor Anita Scott Jones said in ranking their priorities for 2010, it just panned out that the top three were perhaps the most obvious choices.

“They are really what the city is supposed to be about,” Jones said. “ I believe if we take care of those things, everything else should just fall into place.”

Russ Carolus, city finance director, said his department’s goal is to remain “conservative in (its) outlook” and continue to closely monitor revenues as they come in.

“We want to make sure we’re proactive in looking at ways we can better handle our resources,” he said.

It likely will become increasingly important for city staff to participate in the legislative process at the state level, he said, particularly as it pertains to possible changes in police pensions.

In the end, Carolus said every service made available to residents boils down to how much money is left in the city’s pocketbook.

“The will of the people and what they want to do is accomplished with money,” he said. “Planning out how to spend and allocate those resources is a big part of the deal.”

Councilman A.J. Smith said his first priority has always been public safety.

With Middletown already “down 17 police officers from where a city our size should be,” the 2nd Ward representative said he would like to see the city increase police, fire and EMS staffing in the near future.

“We need to at least sustain what we told the public we would when they passed our public safety levy a few years ago,” he said. “We promised we would be able to maintain the staffing we had, so we need to work on putting more public safety forces in the street.” [Sorry for the confusion here] The reason I said we need to work on putting more public safety forces on the street is because we have cut below what we said we would not cut in police and fire when the public passed the levy.

“If we want to keep our citizens and attract new citizens, those individuals need to feel safe here,” he said.

Discussion during the retreat included the feasibility of establishing a dog park, restoring a socioeconomic balance to the city, updating the master plan and various issues related to housing and code enforcement.

Council members also agreed to split the $2,000 budgeted for 2010 evenly among the seven council members, with each allowed $286 for business lunches, dinner meetings and training opportunities.

Back to Top
Marianne View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Avatar

Joined: Jul 13 2008
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 165
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marianne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by A.J. Smith A.J. Smith wrote:

[COLOR="#000066"][Sorry for the confusion here] The reason I said we need to work on putting more public safety forces on the street is because we have cut below what we said we would not cut in police and fire when the public passed the levy.


Can you be more specific?
Back to Top
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: Apr 20 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 2:28pm

Stand firm on that, AJ!!!

Public safety is the FIRST PURPOSE of Municipal government!!!
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
Back to Top
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: Apr 20 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 2:30pm
AJ:
What was the "pact" that Mulligan mentioned that all of the council members signed???  (Something to do with boards and commissions, but he glossed over what it actually said.)
 
Can you post it here, please???
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
Back to Top
A.J. Smith View Drop Down
Outsider
Outsider


Joined: Nov 04 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 8
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A.J. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 2:31pm
What do you mean?

When council asked the public to pass the levy, council said that they would not cut any positions if it passed, but instead sustain the current levels of staffing.

That hasn't happened. Council, has indeed cut public safety forces. I was simply saying that we need to uphold our promise to the public and restore those positions by adding more public safety forces to the streets.
Back to Top
Marianne View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Avatar

Joined: Jul 13 2008
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 165
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marianne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by A.J. Smith A.J. Smith wrote:

What do you mean?When council asked the public to pass the levy, council said that they would not cut any positions if it passed, but instead sustain the current levels of staffing.That hasn't happened. Council, has indeed cut public safety forces. I was simply saying that we need to uphold our promise to the public and restore those positions by adding more public safety forces to the streets.


AJ, If your question was directed to me, I'm asking for you to provide (if you can) the specific numbers regarding staffing of fire and police. You say above that Council has cut public safety forces, but what does that mean in terms of concrete numbers (patrol, support, firefighters, etc.)?

Sorry if my initial request was unclear.
Back to Top
A.J. Smith View Drop Down
Outsider
Outsider


Joined: Nov 04 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 8
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A.J. Smith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by Marianne Marianne wrote:

Originally posted by A.J. Smith A.J. Smith wrote:

What do you mean?When council asked the public to pass the levy, council said that they would not cut any positions if it passed, but instead sustain the current levels of staffing.That hasn't happened. Council, has indeed cut public safety forces. I was simply saying that we need to uphold our promise to the public and restore those positions by adding more public safety forces to the streets.


AJ, If your question was directed to me, I'm asking for you to provide (if you can) the specific numbers regarding staffing of fire and police. You say above that Council has cut public safety forces, but what does that mean in terms of concrete numbers (patrol, support, firefighters, etc.)?

Sorry if my initial request was unclear.


1 dispatcher - Paid out of Division of Police budget, however, he/she dispatches for both police and fire.

3 fire admin positions - I do not know what all three of them are. I do apologize, but I will find out.
Back to Top
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: Apr 20 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 2:45pm
Marianne:
Exactly as I said above!!!
 
Part of the campaign rhetoric promoting the Public Safety payroll tax increase was that:
If it FAILED, the city would have to lay off police and fire personnel.
But, if it passed, they would: 1)  Keep the ENTIRE 0.25% increase separate; and   2)  Use it ONLY for police and fire.
 
At the time (when unemployment was around 5.5%) they projected that the 0.25% would equal about THREE MILLION per year.
 
Instead, they used it to balance the budget so they wouldn't have to cut back anywhere else!!!
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
Back to Top
wasteful View Drop Down
MUSA Citizen
MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: Jul 27 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 793
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wasteful Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2010 at 2:46pm
Mike I believe the Pact you are talking about is some  type of Code of Conduct if we are talking about the same thing.  Also as far as Public Safety goes you must also remember with the new Police Contracts the City must now come up with an additional  $185,000.00+/- a year for the next 3 years if I remember correctly.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.
Copyright ©2024 MiddletownUSA.com    Privacy Statement  |   Terms of Use  |   Site by Xponex Media  |   Advertising Information