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Are we getting our Monies worth

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Marianne View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marianne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 7:52am
Originally posted by Pacman Pacman wrote:


This is about what can Middletown afford in its current condition, which is not even treading water, not about "SOUR GRAPES".

 

 

Pacman, I agree with much of what you post regarding the economy, but I do not understand the logic used here with many of the posts regarding what individuals make.

Acclaro commented that what Mr. Duritsch makes is unreasonable, and that only a civil engineer who owned a company would make 100k. I disagree. Duritsch oversees a significant budget, a large number of employees, and has years of experience. From my perspective, 100k seems reasonable.       

You can't just look at someone's job title and decide that you think he or she makes too much. (Well, you can, but you may be speaking from a position of ignorance).   You have to understand the circumstances of the individual's job. A listing of public employees salaries in the MJ does not provide any context for this. That's why I don't think those lists are very useful except as a lightning rod.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote transplant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 8:29am
Marianne, what you can do however is compare city to city and from my perspective Middletown should not have this many employees making over $60,000 as compared to Fairfield especially in this poor economy and with so many issues as others have listed.  These salaries when combined with the benefits they receive are not in line with what is happening in the real world.  This point really cannot be debated.   
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Bill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 9:15am
my question is why does he manage so many employees?  I could see if we were a vibrant growing community (with a "bright future") with a lot of business activity but why in the world does he oversee a "large number of employees"?  What in the world do all these people do in this dying town with virtually no economic activity?
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acclaro View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:08am
Marianne, I don't know you nor what you do for a living, but I have been in the private sector for greater than 30 years, inclduing many at a Fortiune 10 company. A civil engineer is the easiest engineering major to obtain and the least paying. I won't bother pulling up countless documentation, as that i not my point. My point is this are tenured employees where no ciuts have occurred, where no meaningful performance has been shown, that includes Duritsh behind the crumbing infradstructure. The have great perks, cetainly don't work hard, have limited if any stress, and have lifetime employment gigs. The city mamanger has transformed Middletown in any fashion---give me a break, and got a $10,500 increase. Duritsh would be lucky to have a job today in the economy as not much building is occurring, other than road construction thanks to Obama's payback to the union. The Planning Director---nearly $100 Kk, what are earth has he done? Many of these people have high school degrees, high school degrees!
 
Let me explain the difference. I know the average salary for a Fortune 500 for an executive runinng > $200 Mm SBU is about $150KK, and they get additional bonuses for performances. They can be fired at any time, and many times are. You don't seem to comprehend the difference in salary between these incomes and a senior executive are not that much. The execs in the private sector make it up by performance bonuses, still face termination at anytime, work 7 days a week, and have enormous stress. These indivdiuals have no stress, sit back, many walk to work, and pull down a six figure income. 
 
They are overpaid, perform below mediocrity, and exemplify how the abuse of the system continues. They have a golf pro making $75KK when the city floats money to keep it open. I now am totally against the City of Middletown Health remaining a stand-alone entity. Let them merge with Hamilton, where 35 year nrses with Master's R.N. make $35KK annually, and the Director makes about $47,000 vs $66,000 in Middletown.
 
What Pacman has shown, is the Beast of Middletown. It needs to be salin, and it begins in May. Who would trade a 7 day a week position with all the hassles, air line travel, need to perform, mae revenue, EBIT, and such for a little more money, than bring the coffee mug and work 8-5 within walking distance of the hoime, pulling down $100,000 or greater annually, especially those with the high school degree. I know a kid who graduated from Fenwick, went to Wittenburg, graduated in 04, and makes >$85,000 as a police officer in West Chester. This is vulgar and it must be stopped.        
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Hermes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:14am
Out of curiosity I looked up New York city stats to see what a police officer makes there compared to Middeltown. Now this is a comparison of populations of 50,000 versus >8 million with a tax base far superior to Middeltown.
 
Are police over paid in Middeltown ? You decide................
 
New York city.....police officer starting salary $ >35,000
 
5 years seniority with ALL benefits - overtime...longevity pay...holiday pay...nigh shift differential...etc...$ 65-$76,000 !!!!!
 
Top paid officers excluding upper management.....$ 65,000 - $ 125,000
 
Remember...this city has a population of more than 8 million people. Middeltown has about 50,000.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:20am
Take a look at the Public Works Department that Davy D manages and see how many employees he has. Last time I saw this department's manpower laid out was in the street repair committee meeting a few years ago. I remember his position(actually Ginger Smith's at the time)....Director....an assist manager, a supervisor, a team leader, three machine operators and an admin. That's approx. six or seven in this department alone. Some positions, at that time, were not filled according to Smith. Is he in charge of any more departments" If so, how many employees are involved? If DD only has this one department of approx. seven, from a "number of people to manage" standpoint, IMO, he is overpaid. If he oversees multiple departments, he is probably drawing a fair salary. It's the Golf Course Director's salary of $75,000 that baffles me. Same with the dispatcher's salary of $66,000 and $64,000. This seems quite high from other dispatchers salaries I have seen in other cities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:25am
Hermes- how about a comparison of Newark Ohio to Middletown? Lived in Newark from 1979 to 1984 and Middletown and Newark could be sister cities. Same demographics, town atmosphere, industrial based, population, etc. Would be interesting to compare how Newark pays their police, fire, city manager, and other city positions listed on Pac's list.
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Hermes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:44am
Vet - The reason I checked major cities was due to the demographics. If a city the size of NY is paying what Middeltown does then something is wrong. Either NY city is under-paid or Middeltown is -over-paid.
 
Another one is Chicago. The mayor makes $ 216,000 & our city manager makes about 40% of that ? Governor of Illinois - $ 150,000.....patrol officer (Chicago) $36,000-$73,000 (with all benefits). And Chicago has a population of almost 3 million people.
 
I don't know about everybody else but I see a problem when our city manager makes almost what the governor of Illinois makes. Especially in hard economic times. And police making the same pay or more as some major U.S. cities ??!!!
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Bill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:52am
this thread alone has convinced me to vote no on any city tax initiative -- roads, etc.
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wasteful View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wasteful Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:52am
Why does Middletown have:
 
1 Fire Chief
5 Deputy Chief's
5 Captains
8 Lt.'s
 
39 Fire Fighters
 
In particular the 5 Deputy Chief's and 8 Lt.'s. 
 
I would think a Dept. this size could do with 2 Deputy Chief's and 6 Lt.'s.
 
 
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Hermes View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 10:59am
Vet - Newark,Ohio.....population a little more than 43,000
 
Full time cops....100....salary $±56,000.....fire department pay...77 firemen @ $69,000 yearly.
 
Government Administration....average salary $ >35,000
 
Newark has a monthly payroll of $ < 2 million.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 11:55am
Soooo.... looks like the town size comparison is close.(within 5 thou or so) Looks like the fire pay is comparable. Same with the cops pay. Newark has 100 cops? How 'bout Middletown numbers? The biggy here is the government administration with the average pay of approx. $35 thou. Now, do these Newark salaries of 35 thou include the director/manager/dispatcher/golf course director/etc. positions, or does this 35 thou just apply to the workers/admin. in each department? You know.....as Leona Helmsly once said.....the little people.

What is Middletown's monthly government payroll compared to Newark's "less than" 2 mil?

Will we be able to say that Middletown is significantly higher in salary costs than Newark when comparing cities that are similar in most categories? Not in police or fire salaries but maybe in government salaries perhaps?

Marianne- would this be a fair comparison for you, and, if true, convince you that our comments are based on facts rather than "sour grapes" IF....IF we can show any difference?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 1:55pm
Hmmm----Marianne says its "sour grapes" for taxpayers to state city employees are vastly overpaid, provide no services of importance and indeed have cut back services, and its the taxpayers who pay for the benefit of a public servant to be employed, and yet we have a 'sour grape" mentality associated with those whom work for us? Something amiss from this logic? Middletown is simply in another solar system---no "normal" group of citizens would not see this as outrageous, but in Middletown, comments about "sour grapes" of those paying the bill are a daily occurrence.
 
Its caled entitlement, the union mentality. Too many think what the hell, I could have worked at Armco, but took this city job, so I'm entitled to make a large salary, provide no benefit, make great perks, because I'm a union man or woman. Comin, look at Armco, think I'm not going to get my share of the apple? That's why a school like UNC-Chapel Hill, can provide instate tuition with room and board for $11,000 vs Ohio's instate deal of about $27,000. The union effect lingers.
 
"Sour grapes"? You bet so when the city leadership has destroyed Middletown, keep cutting back on services, and pay salaries in a city which property values have declined among the lowest in the state, and a few residents who must also be in public service, communicate a comment about the one paying the bill being jealous of the great packages the people who work for us get.
 
Beward those of you looking to move to Middletown, you will encounter the most resistance to change and clinging to entitlement than any city in the country.   
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Marianne View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marianne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by acclaro acclaro wrote:

Marianne, I don't know you nor what you do for a living, but I have been in the private sector for greater than 30 years, inclduing many at a Fortiune 10 company. ....Many of these people have high school degrees, high school degrees!
 
...... These indivdiuals have no stress, sit back, many walk to work, and pull down a six figure income. 
 
...... Who would trade a 7 day a week position with all the hassles, air line travel, need to perform, mae revenue, EBIT, and such for a little more money, than bring the coffee mug and work 8-5 within walking distance of the hoime, pulling down $100,000 or greater annually, especially those with the high school degree. I know a kid who graduated from Fenwick, went to Wittenburg, graduated in 04, and makes >$85,000 as a police officer in West Chester. This is vulgar and it must be stopped.        


You're right:  you don't know what I do for a living.  For all you know, I could be one of "those people" who "just" have a high school degree and earn 100k a year. 

Some of those people with "just" a high school degree are a lot smarter than people with advanced degrees. 

The blanket statements about the working conditions as well as the mindset of city employees exemplify what I stated earlier.  

You have no idea about the stress levels of employees at the City Building unless they've communicated them to you.   Many walk to work?  Do you follow city employees home from Donham Plaza?  And what's wrong with *walking* to work?    

Wow....  what a post.
 

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Marianne View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marianne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:



Marianne- would this be a fair comparison for you, and, if true, convince you that our comments are based on facts rather than "sour grapes" IF....IF we can show any difference?


Vet, I have no problem with people expressing concern about what goes on in this city, and I understand it's human nature to wonder why people earn a certain income.  I've just found many of the comments on this thread regarding the personal and professional situations of employees at the City Building to be baseless unless those individuals posting know something more about each employee's situation, how their income was earned, and what their responsibilities are. 

Acclaro's comment about Mr. Durtisch's salary and civil engineers was, at least from my reading, incorrect.   I'm in a position to know something about what engineers make professionally; I posted statistics from the Labor department regarding average salaries and pointed out that Mr. Duritsch does not function soley as a civil engineer in a firm.  His counter was that civil engineering is an easy degree and that civil engineers can't get jobs now didn't refute my points.  Instead he follows that with comments about city employees with "just high school degrees!" who lead stress-free lives and walk to work.  Sorry, that sounds like sour grapes, or perhaps silliness to me.   Just my opinion. :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 4:04pm
Marianne- you can think its normal for a clerk to make $100 KK a year, and think each of evryone of these individuals earnm every dime of their pay- good for you. The city employees are overpaid, two cities reveal that Balanced Scorecard comparision (you can look the term up). You appear to be a cheerleader for the old network and pay which is outlandish for the benefits provided, again, the Neward annd NYC was quite convincing. If you don't mind paying it, more power to you. The majority get it, know its out of hand, and will defeat the coming levies, and rescind the 1.75% down to 1.5% in a few years. I'd pull up Hay Point scales but why bother. You think coity hall is worth getting paid 25% more than their contemporaries evidently. I ran a $100 MM business unit a few years ago, and didn't even invest in an Executive Assistant. Call Jim Kleingers and ask what he pays his civil engineers if you wish to "bench-mark."  There must be some remarkable achievements I just haven't been privy to in the last few years. Gee...what was is? Oh, the loss of First Financia, the loss of AK executive payroll, the loss of Middletown Regional Hospital, the stagnation of the school district and failure of the land grab. But, its going to be bright in the future, that's priceless. And so is the school district (humor me---priceless?)  
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Bill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 4:45pm
Which is more galling than the comp of entrenched, upper end city employees:
 
o  Their overly generous pension
o  The absolute job security regardless of market conditions 
o  Their performance, silly!
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Bill View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 4:46pm
I'm also guessing the city building is a ghost town at 5:01pm..  does anyone put in extra time in light of their "exempt, salaried" status?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wasteful Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 4:53pm
Marianne are you saying pay should be based on the stress level of a job?
 
Marianne states, "You have no idea about the stress levels of employees at the City Building......"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 5:07pm
clearly option A, Bill.
That is the lead weight destined to break the back(and bank) of our city,state and country.
With these employees retiring at an early age at these high pay rates(so they can double dip), and living much longer today(though Obama's health care program could seriously shorten lifespans), there is absolutely no way the few still working(for less) can sustain this system.
Do the math Marianne--do you REALLY think that it can work?
 
Stress here?
With these retirement conditions?
lol
 
What about the private sector with benefits nowhere approaching this bloated level, and no guarantee of getting anytthing down the road from struggling businesses and funding?
 
Obviously the fire dept. has too many chiefs for their staffing, and is far out of line.
A public safety renewal will be a VERY hard sell, understandably, since even that .25% can't sustain the up-coming retirement expenses.
 
Obviously municipal, govt. and education system employees need to be brought into the Social Security system, Medicare/Medicaid and new health care programs. Good enough for us--good enough for them, especially since we bear the cost burden.
 
jmo
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Marianne View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marianne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by wasteful wasteful wrote:

Marianne are you saying pay should be based on the stress level of a job?
 

Marianne states, "You have no idea about the stress levels of employees at the City Building......"


No, I'm saying that acclaro has no idea what stress levels are experienced by city employees unless he is one.

He made a claim about city employees not having any stress; I question how he can make such a claim.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marianne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by spiderjohn spiderjohn wrote:

clearly option A, Bill.
That is the lead weight destined to break the back(and bank) of our city,state and country.

With these employees retiring at an early age at these high pay rates(so they can double dip), and living much longer today(though Obama's health care program could seriously shorten lifespans), there is absolutely no way the few still working(for less) can sustain this system.

Do the math Marianne--do you REALLY think that it can work?

 


Not sure how you come up with this question based on what I posted. I'm not even sure what you're asking.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 5:44pm
Marianne- city employee stress?  LOL! These are tenured employees, they'd have to commit a felony to be fired. Look at the years they have and how rapidly they zoom up th payscale. Bill was right on, at 5:00 pm, don't be near the elevator (rather the stairwell). The stress must be unbearable for the city employees such as the ED Department. I mean, they are waiting on SunCoke to build the plant that AK initiated, and see all this buisness leaving, but surely don't show any stress. The city manager? Got nearly a $11Kk raise while nothing has been accomplished other than more business being lost, and the wrecker ball tearing down Middletown. The city law director- the stress associated with how to by-pass the city council votes and get the at large removed (I don't care about that but am intelligent enough to comprehend the motivation).  Hell, these are the best paid upper class in Middletown. 
 
Do I know stress? Yes. I work 7 days a week, travel about 4, do turn-arounds for large F100's, and have p/l for a large unit producing about $300 MM annually. I'm about $20 KK above the city mnager, make the rest up in bonuses, and put in about 12 hr average days.
 
End of story, public employees drastically overpaid. Same job security as a tenured professor, and I assume Dean Cowen was/ is tenured so she can do her thing with downtown Middletown---what has that produced?.
 
I have seen no meaningful results anywhere of any reasonable measure in Middletown in years. There's the real world, and the unreal world of the public sector and Middletown has a lifestyle anyone would trade in a NY minute for. The Beast is documented, and the care and feeding is out of hand. Will it change? Entirely up to the voter, but this is a pretty easy deciion for anyone evaluating the facts here.      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marianne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by acclaro acclaro wrote:

the Neward annd NYC was quite convincing.


I just want to point out - yet again - the problems with some statements made on this site. Goto http://www.nypdrecruit.com/

"PRESS RELEASE SEPTEMBER 26, 2008
Police Officers overwhelmingly approved a contract that gives them a 17% raise over four years. Members of the PBA approved the contract by 99.4%.

Under the agreement, the January 2009 Police Academy class will have a starting base salary of $40,361 and goes to $41,975 on August 1, 2009. When adding holiday pay, uniform allowance, and average night differential; a first-year Police Officer will have a total salary of $46,228 before overtime.

The base pay will increase every year to $76,488 after 5.5 years. When adding holiday pay, uniform allowance, average night differential, and longevity pay; a Police Officer with 5.5 years will earn $90,829 before overtime."

So after five and a half years on the force, an officer will earn 90k BEFORE overtime.

The quoted salaries of patrol officers in the MPD do not include years of service.

Of those listed, how many have 5.5 years experience, and what is their pay *before overtime*?

I assume that the salary statistics from the MJ *include* what people made through overtime, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Therefore, to compare what MPD officers make to what NYPD officers make and say that this proves the MPD is overpaid makes no sense.

So, no, acclaro, the NYC comparison was not "quite convincing."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 24 2010 at 5:54pm
Marianne, I could have studies of salaries pulled up out of my global firm's knowledge base, and nothing would convince you otherwise these employees have great perks, limited to no stress, and lifetime employment. So why bother? There is nothing which has been produced of significance, anyone can clearly see overhead which is out of hand, including a former superintendant out of the parochial system who condemned the runaway overhead in MCSD in the last levy, and there are many attorneys not making 1/2 of what the city law director makes in Middletown. Your analogy has no more credibility than Chuck Furmon at Butler Cty Commission saying some clerk from small town USA in Kentucky deserves $93,000. because she grew up in the same small town in Hazard that he did. I'd like Mr. Wainscott to run the city and school system for a year, cut it to the bone, and watch the results come forth.       
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