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No Tax Increase |
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Bill 
MUSA Citizen 
Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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 Posted: Apr 30 2010 at 8:18pm |
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Smartman, who the heck stays with any company for 30 years anymore? You can't! my point was that there is something inherently wrong with the level of retirement pay and medical bennies afforded to teachers when they retire after 30 (or now I believe 32) years. Especially considering that lack of accountability.
Remember, most people don't actually retire after 30 years -- most people can't afford to and most work for a hodge podge of different employers. So they work from 18 (or 22, 23) to at least 65.
And don't forget the teachers' unions are padding their teachers retirement annuity by contributing 14% of every paycheck on top of the teacher's 10%. Whose money is that 14%? The taxpayers! That is unheard of in any industry. Most companies don't even have pensions anymore. Your comparisons to AK or GM retirees is beside the point as they are private businesses, not the public-financed behemoth that is the teachers union.
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Smartman
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 14 2008 Status: Offline Points: 299 |
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Posted: Apr 30 2010 at 6:59pm |
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By the way Bill, I am a manager for a big box retailer. Mt retirement is based on the profits we make. Other wise know as the money you spend in my store. Oh I guess that makes me crooked an and a theif as well!!!
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Smartman
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 14 2008 Status: Offline Points: 299 |
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Posted: Apr 30 2010 at 6:47pm |
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Oh Bill Bill! If you stay with any company for 30 years you can retire. Why do you complain about people retiring? You claim taxpayer dollars. Well if you work in an industry where folks purchase goods, then you are retiring on the money you make from them! Seems like the same thing to me! Postal workers retire off the money you spend on postage. AK folks retire retire off the profits they make on steel sales to auto makers. Auto makers retire off the profits they make on cars. Seems to me these folks retire in the comfort zone! So sir please explain your logic.
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Bill
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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Posted: Apr 30 2010 at 3:28pm |
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the job isn't cushy but the benefits and retiring by mid-50's are pretty cushy
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LoveToTeach
Outsider 
Joined: Apr 23 2010 Status: Offline Points: 7 |
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Posted: Apr 30 2010 at 2:59pm |
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Oh, and Bill- if you think that teachers have a such a cushy job, then why not give it a try? Take out student loans, go back to school and get your education degree. My apologies when you figure out it isn't as cushy as you once thought.
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LoveToTeach
Outsider
Joined: Apr 23 2010 Status: Offline Points: 7 |
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Posted: Apr 30 2010 at 2:55pm |
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Bill- if you think a teacher can retire at age 54 these days, you are living in a dream world!
And what does it matter to you where the superintendent lives? As long as he is good at his job, that should be irrelevant. And I doubt seriously he is worried about the resell on his house that he hasn't even bought yet. Have you met him? Have you taken time to talk to him? If not, I encourage that you do. His staff in Kansas did not want him to leave. They loved him! So, please don't judge someone before they have had the chance to show you that they can deliver. |
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Bill
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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Posted: Apr 30 2010 at 10:16am |
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I'm wondering if he may try to buy on land contract so that if he bolts after 2 or 3 years he simply loses out on his payments and, in effect, has rented his house.
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Hermes
Prominent MUSA Citizen 
Joined: May 19 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1637 |
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Posted: Apr 30 2010 at 9:24am |
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Good points acclaro. I'll almost bet that Rasmussen won't even live in Middeltown. Why should he ? No one else does. Must be nice to be a cop,fireman,teacher, politician and live somewhere thats better than the mess they created here.
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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Hermes
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 19 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1637 |
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Posted: Apr 30 2010 at 9:19am |
Smartman...I wasn't b******* about my income, I was explaining my usage of the term "fixed income".
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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Posted: Apr 30 2010 at 8:30am |
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Vet, I wouldn't be too concerned about a union VP at MUM endorsing a levy; American Association of University Women’s Union advocating passage for benefitting union members. I think that causes more harm than good. No one in Middletown has enough stature or clout it would make a difference. For those who want the cost spread around, it will pass, for those who see Middletown a disgraceful town falling apart, it will fail. For those who are in the assisted living homes, the target of the fire and police when the levies come about, they will vote yes for the visit to the facility, and they don't pay taxes. The key will be how many get out to vote. You can't control the numbers who have children in school. For he few hundred of the Manchester Ball Club, they aren't enough to make a difference.
Memo to Dr. Rasmussen on housing: it took the retired principal on Central about 3 years or longer to ell his 100KK house. If you buy, better be putting up a For Sale sign as soon as you cloe, as you need to allocate about 5 years to sell your house in Middletown. The principal's house was on the right side by the school, and it sat for many years. Better to lease, unless the school says they will buy it, maybe written into the contract. Or the city will withhold enough Obama money to help you out..
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VietVet
MUSA Council 
Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Posted: Apr 30 2010 at 7:13am |
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Ahh Smartman- as usual, your timing is impeccable when delivering a jab or two. Ain't nobody whining, just stating how it is for them as to income, aren't they?
On another note---there has been a lot of high rollin' power doggies just a writin' away in the Journal, endorsing the different levies. Has the city council gone on record to endorse the school/library levies as yet? Must have missed it if they have. Would be very unusual for them not to support the schools/library. Individual rollers have made endorsements. I would think that, with council's unquestioned credibility and influence in the community, the schools/library would welcome the endorsement as many people respect the integrity that is engrained in our city leaders! 
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Bill
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 9:24pm |
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Smartman, yep you're income is fixed...if by that you mean endless teacher raises as far as the eye can see until a cushy pension-soaked retirement at the age of 54.
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Smartman
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 14 2008 Status: Offline Points: 299 |
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Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 8:49pm |
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Hey!!! I'm on a fixed income!!! My employer only gives so many dollars to live on! So what are you bitching about Hermes?
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Bill
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 7:56pm |
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ahh, that sounds nice -- to have a couple years in retirement while the wife still works. Sleep in, golf any time...I can only hope |
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Hermes
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 19 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1637 |
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Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 7:34pm |
Jab away Bill, I'm a tough old coot.
 Just for clarification when I refered to fixed income that is what I get only from my own investment as retirement. I don't get SS or SSI so for me there is no raise or cost of living increase. When I say fixed it's exactly that,fixed at a certain level and as I age that level keeps going down. The economy hasn't helped either. My wife still works though, a full time job thank goodness. (That leaves me all this free time to get on here and b****.)
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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Hermes
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 19 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1637 |
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Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 7:21pm |
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Thank you spider, and I really hate to get upset over the issues because I tend to lose focus, but the buck has to stop some where. I realize this issue is important to a lot of people especially the kids when they see and hear what teachers & administrators,who they are taught to respect and never doubt, spew their threats & intimidation tactics to the public these kids must think the general public hates them or something. We live in a spoiled environment. Kids are spoiled, adults are spoiled and it's pathetic.
My entire argument about levies is not about test scores or pay raises, it's the fact that when the city or BOE ask for money they will go to any and all lengths to get it and not give a damn about who they walk on to do it. They get tunnel vision, all they see is how much money they can get and for how long.
I'll direct this to Ms Andrew, do you care where this money comes from ? Do you give a damn whether or not someone has to do without to pay for this levy ? Do you care that a child may have to go to your school wearing clothes bought at Salvation Army because his/her parents have to dish out so much money ? Do you care that a child may go to bed hungry because his/her parents can't afford a meal because the levy took away grocery money ? Do you think any employer will give a Middeltown resident a pay raise to cover what is being paid in levies ? Do you care that this year alone there are a total of 3 levies being presented to the public ?
In closing, this is not the 1960's, AK Steel is no longer a supporter & benefactor of this town. Middletown has fallen, the downtown area is dead. The high paying jobs are not present. The hospital even left town. (I don't care what you call the east side it's not Middeltown) It's over. The funds are not here. In the flyer I received today it mentions this money will go towards teachers, support staff, sports, honors programs, foreign language, music and art, busses, books, supplies and other programs. At least three of these could be eliminated. Cuts are needed, not increases.
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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 7:21pm |
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lol bill--unfortunaely I can't give any pay increases, and have taken two pay cuts.
fixed income could mean goord or bad
no one can afford more taxes, especially for non-essential services
fortunately the school levy vote doesn't have to be unanimous
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 7:20pm |
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Of course it will pass sj! Its because the rationale is so compelling...its the Middlie Pride, we're getting better right? And those that disagree, well, its the egotistical know it alls, the naysayers. Well, the naysayers have had it up to here with Middletown's promises, and I would be a little more cautious than you articulate in your wild enthusiasm for a positive outcome. New Jersey thought the same as you declare. Bill, the adage, its Middie pride, and we are making progress cannot be a more worn phrase than an individual stating the income is fixed. But, at least you comprehend the difference between fixed and variable expense, that's an improvement over some. Here's New Jersey's results folks, and Middletown is on a path to greatness! I still have alot of oil in the Gulf of Mexico for sale for those buying this positive spin on the levy.
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Bill
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 7:15pm |
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I meant COL, Cost of Living increase....
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Bill
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 7:11pm |
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Hermes, can't help but jab a little here.... the well-worn "living on a fixed income" complaint doesn't mean much over the last few years. Many of us would love our income to be fixed and have no fear of pay reduction, layoffs, etc.! Besides, most "merit pools" companies give out is about 2-3% -- which isn't too far off the COI increase you would get.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 6:18pm |
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lol
y'all are far too sensitive and take yourselves far too seriously.
Vote however you choose--just spare us the egotistical rhetoric.
Thankfully Mike P, is done.
This levy will probably pass without your support anyway.
Hermes' reasoning was by far the most real and sensible.
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 5:16pm |
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Hmmm.....it appears the tactic is out of Saul Alinsky's playbook on Radicalism:
Pass the levy tactics-
7. Tactics "Tactics are those conscious deliberate acts by which human beings live with each other and deal with the world around them. ... Here our concern is with the tactic of taking; how the Have-Nots can take power away from the Haves." p.126 1. "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have." 2. "Never go outside the expertise of your people. When an action or tactic is outside the experience of the people, the result is confusion, fear and retreat.... [and] the collapse of communication. 3. "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.) 4. "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity." 5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage." 6. "A good tactic is one your people enjoy." 7. "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time...." 8. "Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose." 9. "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself." 10. "The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this unceasing pressure that results in the reactions from the opposition that are essential for the success of the campaign." 11. "If you push a negative hard and deep enough, it will break through into its counterside... every positive has its negative." 12. "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative." 13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.'... "...any target can always say, 'Why do you center on me when there are others to blame as well?' When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments.... Then, as you zero in and freeze your target and carry out your attack, all the 'others' come out of the woodwork very soon. They become visible by their support of the target...' "One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other." (pps.127-134) |
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 5:07pm |
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Ms. Andrew: Your efforts using the ratios of assessed value to amount paid per property offend me because either:
You refuse to accept the simple concept that THE DISTRICT IS ENTITLED TO COLLECT THE “FIXED SUM” (your term, my term has consistently been “total amount“) OF $18.3 MILLION FROM THE TAX-PAYING OWNERS OF THE “CURRENT PROPERTIES”, EVEN IF THE POOL OF “CURRENT PROPERTIES” SHRINKS!!! Now, it is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE to do this unless, in some fashion or other, taxes are RAISED on the remaining “CURRENT PROPERTIES”!!! THAT is one point on which I believe the proponents have been misleading the voters. SAME "fixed sum", fewer "current properties", DO THE MATH!!! Now, if you STILL don’t understand, you can look it up, ask an expert, phone a friend, or write Dear Abby. I don't care because I know that I have done my best to speak the truth!!! And that is the last that I will say on the matter!!! |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 4:37pm |
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Spider:
I meant exactly what I said!!! No more, no less!!
I did not "imply" that the BoE was wrong about anything EXCEPT their statements that the "tax RATE could not rise"!!
The tax RATE can rise, by up to 4% per year, as "current properties" fall off the tax rolls.
The "TOTAL AMOUNT" or "FIXED SUM" of $18.3 million that the District will be entitled to receive cannot rise, but the amount that each current or future owner of "CURRENT PROPERTIES" pays CAN RISE!!!
This will be TRUE regardless of how much you, Ms. Andrew, the BoE, or anyone else hope it not to be true.
These attacks are rapidly convincing me of the proper vote on this issue.
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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VietVet
MUSA Council
Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Posted: Apr 29 2010 at 12:37pm |
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Hermes- IMO, no one, from the school board to the admin., to the teachers indicate that they care whether you can afford what THEY want to happen. They appear to be in it for themselves. They will do anything to protect their system, their job, their pay and their benefits/retirement despite being presented factual evidence that they haven't performed to earntheir requests. They care not who is affected-just that they get their requests met and that their turf is protected. If this were not true, we would occasionally read or hear some type of acknowledgement that they realize that their leviescould be a hardship on certain segments of the community. Don't hear or read that message at all, do we? All we hear is the blame game where no-voters are "hurting the kids"- "denying the kids a decent education"- "hurting the health of the community by not supporting the schools"- "unappreciative of the educational community"- etc. Not allowed to have a descenting opinion. Just blindly go along with the program and give them what they want. Hell, that "giving them what they want" has contributed to where we are now. We started out believing their "trust us" propaganda and accorded them their every wish for years. You see what they got us.....(cue the indicators/proficiency test scores and continuous improvement ranking after all these years) Mercy it is painful to watch as this school district has gone right down the crapper since the 70's. However, as Docktor Stevie Price told me one time when we got into it, "well I don't see it that way" when I showed him the area test scores with Midd. on the bottom and questioned why that was. Denying facts presented, giving as many reasons out of their control as to why they failed, and flat out twisting of comments made by the opposition seem to be their favorite games to play. Admission of shortcomings, failures and deceit is not in their playbook. Never will be.
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