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Laubach feels Middletown is.... |
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Kelly
MUSA Immigrant Joined: Aug 20 2009 Status: Offline Points: 47 |
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Methinks BeauVerre is reading MUSA.....from Facebook... BeauVerre Riordan Please show your support for the Pendleton Art Center locating in Downtown Middletown at 7 North Broad St. Contact your Council person and let them know what a great thing this will be to continue with the rehabilitation of the core of the Downtown. If you are looking for a gallery space we are accepting names to refer to the PAC owner Mr Verdin. Space is limited apply early. They plan to be open by Thanksgiving... |
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TANGO
MUSA Resident Joined: Mar 21 2010 Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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Well mike their is no way to say who is right in this case , the future will telland just maybe you are not privy to all the future plans of the city I hope. I have faith in LAUBACH I have spoke with Laubach a several times and he is very bright and does his homework. I am just glad to see council is not expanding section 8 again like the past did.
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Richard Saunders
MUSA Resident Joined: Jun 30 2010 Status: Offline Points: 232 |
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Mr. Tango:
Do you not read your own writings, sir?
As Mr. Presta pointed out, you wrote: "broad street bash has shown people will go downtown for the right reasons.”
Compared to the crowds attracted by events sponsored by Middletown Arts Central, the crowds at Broad Street Bash are relatively speaking, quite large. The events to be held at the Pendleton will be much like those held at MAC, and nothing like the events at the Broad Street Bash.
Yet, in your most recent post, you state "their is no way to say who is right in this case."
Sir, you had already answered this question. "broad street bash has shown people will go downtown for the right reasons.” It is apparent that the arts are not "the right reasons."
The People have spoken. It is illogical and immoral to defy the will of The People.
Also, the government should not be concocting future plans in the privy. Such plans tend to be odiferous.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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wow--big words being tossed around.
Seems Council is measuring input recieved on this issue.
So--if you have a strong feeling either way, you should voice those thoughts to Councilmembers by what'ever means possible.
Cou;d well make the difference.
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Nelson Self
MUSA Resident Joined: Aug 17 2009 Status: Offline Points: 144 |
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Mr. Laubach -
As one of your Ward 3 constituents, please consider the following:
1) require that the City of Middletown publish a Request for Proposals/Qualifications for the utilization of up to $500,000 in available funds for bonafide downtown redevelopment proposals; and,
2) provide a listing of vacant, City-owned land in the downtown core that's available for quality reuse as well.
Such a RFP/Q process MUST INCLUDE current owners of downtown real estate as well as proven LOCAL ENTREPRENEURS seeking to expand current business operations.
Wouldn't this approach generate a number of worthwhile proposals to consider? Isn't that a wothwhile stategy for the City in utilizing limited funding and vacant land in the downtown core? Wouldn't it also produce an open, transparent process instead of the usual private negotiating methods?
Nelson Self
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Can anyone explain to us EXACTLY why this will be "a great thing" using actual facts and figures? Can anyone explain why it will be "a great thing" using ANYTHING other than wishes and dreams?For that matter, can anyone explain why BeauVerre was "a great thing" for Middletown??? Or why they were worth the hundreds of thousands of tapayers' dollars that were "invested"?? Can anyone tell us what we got in return for our money??? Perhaps Council should ask these questions BEFORE they vote next Tuesday???
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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plum8up
Outsider Joined: Jan 20 2010 Location: mid 01dletown Status: Offline Points: 10 |
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Mike I don't know you but, I have to admit I feel like I've been chewed on by a pit bull. My take simply put their were members of past councils who I've felt were not above voting on projects that could help themselves politically and finacially. Josh is to honest to do either of those and politically in the long run it will hurt him. So it bothers me the way you guys are beating him up on this one issue when he takes it personally [I mean hes posting rebuttals] when I feel he brings a lot of positives to council.
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plum8up
Outsider Joined: Jan 20 2010 Location: mid 01dletown Status: Offline Points: 10 |
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With the exception of the swallens building i have yet to see anything worth buying that has been torn down.To purchace a building is one thing to renovate and maintain is somthing else.After this real estate collaspe no bank would consider loaning money for an old downtown commercial building period. Who besides perry would even think about buying downtown.Who has that kind of pocket change?So we can tear it down,sell it for pennies to someone who probably cant afford to do anything but let it deteriorate,or take a chance on someone with a track record of success but to get him is gonna take a sweatheart deal.I would take the chance but hey im a moron {see origional post and being torn to schreads by Mr.presta}
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Mr. Plum: If you feel that I am being too hard on either you or Mr. Laubach, I am sorry that you feel that way. However, I cannot apologize for my remarks. If you have closely followed these message boards, you might’ve noticed that I have tried to back Mr. Laubach as he stood against superior numbers on council. However, there were some actions by Mr. Laubach that demand that he be held accountable!!
Simply stated, just because we find ourselves in a hole does NOT dictate that we keep digging. Yet that is what you seem to indicate that we do by subsidizing Mr. Verdin with this sweetheart deal. Just because we have wasted tens of millions of dollars on failed similar plans downtown, wasting another million or so makes no sense. Why not try actual business instead of the repeatedly failed OldeTyme, arts, crafts, antiques, Main Street Plans that have failed over and over and over? Mr. Plum, our city staff will not even allow anyone to attempt a real business downtown using their own funds. They refuse all but the "Main street Plan"-type subsidized non-productive enterpises with "snob appeal" that have failed over and over. Sorry, Mr. Plum, but we must purge city hall of all of the anti-business types, including all senior staff in favor of this project and all council members who vote for it. It will be nothing but another nail in the coffin of not only downtown, but also all of our city! PS: Mr. Plum: Any idea what the attendance has been to date at the "143rd American Watercolor Society Exhibition"??? It is supposed to be a draw from the ENTIRE MID-WEST section of America!!! It has been going on since (I believe) the last Friday in July and continues through this weekend at Middletown Arts Central. Yet, I'd wager that for the entire run to date, they did not outdraw even ONE Broad Street Bash!!! So where are all of these "patrons of the arts", Mr. Plum??? If they didn't show up for this national, once a year event, how can we honestly expect them to show every month for 20 local artist here in Middletown??? Sorry, but it just doesn't make sense!!! It would make more sense to provide seed money to "The Bash". |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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By the way, Mr. Plum, THAN YOU!!!
I am honored!!! I have never before been call "A PIT BULL" for the tax payers!!!
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Hey Mike! I thought the pit bull around here was Joe Dieters, the Hamilton County Prosecutor.???? WLW always refers to him as that when Cunningham (who I hate, by the way) has him on.
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swohio75
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 13 2008 Status: Offline Points: 820 |
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The seems to be a little confusion on the whole Beau Verre Riordan deal and the nature of their business. Beau Verre Riordan is not someone’s hobby. Nor is it some sort of downtown experiment by the city. It’s a business. A business that chose to be in the downtown area. While it may have started as a hobby for Jay and Linda Moorman, it’s now their livelihood. And while it may offer opportunities for others to further their stained glass hobby or interest, BVR has paying customers who purchase a product. In order to produce this product, BVR must HIRE and PAY skilled professionals an income. Income that is taxable by the city of Middletown. Here’s some history on the BVR BV was located on the east-side of Middletown for many years in the KittyHawk area. It was started and continues to be owned by Middletonians. BV purchased Riordan Studios out of Cincinnati. Riordan was the oldest operating stained glass studio in the United States. With this purchase, BVR outgrew their existing location and needed to expand operations. Like any business, BVR considered expansion options, including a new building on the east end of Middletown. But Jay and Linda had a vision for a renovated building in Middletown’s downtown that could lead to the eventual spark in redevelopment. And they worked with the city on a deal that would allow them to do so. The city of Middletown owned a building in the former mall area at Central and Broad that many people will recall as the John Ross Store and later G.C. Murphy’s. I don’t’ know at what point the city acquired the property or how much they paid for it. It could have been part of the mall’s original construction. During the planning process for the downtown mall’s removal, there was debate on whether or not to demolish this building due to the fact the storefront’s replacement cost was more than the building’s value, and the city didn’t have to acquire the property. The decision was made, I believe, not to demolish because the corner was deemed crucial to downtown Middletown’s redevelopment. A hurdle to the property’s redevelopment was the amount of asbestos. BVR’s worked out a deal with the city consisted of the following: - BVR purchased the building for $1 - BVR agreed to spend $30,000 on trim around the top of the building that needs substantial repair work. Anything above that was to be paid for by the city in a $30,000 grant. - The city of Middletown provided BVR with an 15-year interest-free loan with no payments for the first five years - The amount of the loan was $300,000 with $10,000 job credits off the principal of that loan for every job that adds at least $20,000 to the company's payroll. - BVR had hoped, as part of this expansion, to create 30 new jobs This was not some sort of free-be handout. BVR will celebrate 5 years at their downtown location this fall/winter, so repayment of the loan should begin shortly, the amount depending on the number of jobs created. Even if the loan is forgiven based on JOB CREATION, I can tell you the Jay and Linda’s personal investment in the building far exceeds the original loan amount—and may be up to twice the amount of the loan. Here’s an old article from The Enquirer that discusses the deal: http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/10/23/loc_middowntown23.html You can be sure had Jay and Linda decided to expand BVR on the east-end, they surely would have sought tax incentives for that location as well. I wonder if there would be as much criticism if this is the route they had chosen. |
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Just for clarity, swohio, you mentioned that the city owned A building in the mall that people will recall as the John Ross Store and later G.C. Murphy. To clarify, these two stores were totally different buildings- Murphys, where Beau Verre is now and John Ross on the opposite corner of Central and Broad. John Ross was never the G.C Murphy store nor in reverse order.
Wasn't this loan to Beau Verre predicated on creating a certain number of jobs in a given period of time. Could be wrong here, don't remember. Where did the city loan money to Beau Verre come from? City tax payers perhaps? And if it came from city taxpayers, doesn't the city have an obligation to lessen the risk of investment on behalf of said taxpayer? And who gave the city permission to dispense with the 15 year loan with no payments for 5 years thing you mentioned? Seems awfully loose with the people's money, don't you think? |
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swohio75
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 13 2008 Status: Offline Points: 820 |
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The John Ross store was located in the Beau Verre location many years before it moved to northeast corner of Central and Broad:
When they moved, Murphy's expanded their operations in the old John Ross building:
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Before the mall was even thought of, the G.C.Murphy store was where Beau Verre is now and was the main bus stop downtown. The John Ross store was located on the opposite corner. This was during the 50's/60's.
If this situation you are talking about was before the 50's, then it was probably so. |
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Bill
MUSA Citizen Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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swohio75, I don't want to pick on BV or have anything against them. But the point most of us are making is that the city should not be in the business of giving out large sums of money for new businesses, regardless of how much $$ the owner is putting in themselves. What makes PAC worse than BV is that it sounds like the owner is putting in a minimal amount of their own money, if any, which is unlike the BV story you just mentioned.
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swohio75
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 13 2008 Status: Offline Points: 820 |
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Wasn't this loan to Beau Verre predicated on creating a certain number of jobs in a given period of time. Could be wrong here, don't remember. BVR needs to repay the loan after 5 years. The principal of the loan can be reduced by $10,000 for every employee added to their payroll. BVR had anticipated creating 30 new jobs. Not sure where they stand. The loan was provided to help an existing business expand their operations as a result of an acquisition. BVR could have easily relocated to downtown Lebanon or another community. The money used came from a grant from the federal government in the 1970s-- Urban Development Action Grant City Council at the time approved this transaction. |
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swohio75
MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 13 2008 Status: Offline Points: 820 |
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Bill – BVR was not a new business. It was an existing, successful Middletown business. The city was working to retain this business. |
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Rhodes
MUSA Resident Joined: Jun 18 2010 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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They weren't working to retain BVR. BVR wasn't leaving Middletown. It was an experiment at the tax payer's expense to see if business could be generated in the "new downtown". So far, it hasn't worked. It takes more than a glass shop to get a downtown rolling.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Beau Verre is a quality business, owned by hard-working local business people. They would be successful wherever they were located. Even though the city(taxpayer money) bent over backwards to make them the centerpiece in a downtown gamble. A risky offer for both, but almost too good to refuse. Beau Verre has created a true showplace, and success story.
Did this pan out as hoped?
Yes and no.
"Arts" in general, has not caught on in the area, despite many efforts and grant $$ from many sources being thrown their way. Should we try it again, much more heavily taxpayer-subsidized? In the current financial/economic/demographic circumtances, it really doesn't make sense.
The area is overwhelmingly low income, and not even as diverse as Over The Rhine(which had considerable private entertainment ventures springing up). Family Services, Hope House, govt.assistance centers, food pantries, missions and self-help centers dominate the area.
Since our city admin is 100% responsible for the Section 8 over-population and the strong Section 8 concentration in that and immediately surrounding areas, they are seriously contradicting themselves by trying to now quickly shift the area(by force) to the upscale arts district again. This is exactly where our Council is supposed to step in and say "Wait a minute--What are we really doing here? Why are we spending huge tax $$ to repair building to be turned over to non-local businesses, with no productive ontingencies or performance requirements? Are our citizens as a whole getting their money's worth?"
Obviously Beau Verre is approaching crunch time, allegedly due to start making loan repayments and tax obligations. Another non-competing art center(much more heavily taxpayer subsidized) would be good for them. Can't fault them for strongly supporting this expensive but risky proposal.
Still--hard to imagine a mass shopping exodus or business development spurt in that area. "Starving artists" will hardly be manning the facility every day. They simply don't work that way. They might be attracted to the hookers,drugs and seedy bars though. No one is going to fight the brutal I-75 mess to come to that area to do what they could do within their home space. They MIGHT show up one day a month to hawk their wares b4 bugging out back home. Still--who will travel there to BUY essentially what is offered in more convenient and attractive areas?
I know that I am sounding maybe too negative, however there are WAY too many parts of this puzzle that really don't fit well. And our Council is expected to emergency this in next Tuesday. Maybe time to "Just Say No" for now, until everything can be discussed and a much more favorable option can be created for local taxpayers. What is the rush? If Pendleton really wants to be here, they should understand and be willing to seriously increase their stake in the project. If not--I'm sure that someone better will be found.
And I am with Vet--I always remember GC Murphy Co. being on one corner, and Ross's on the other.
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409
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Mar 27 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1014 |
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Spider.....I remember it as you & vette do.........however
Here is a shot of BeauVerre from another angle.
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Thank you to SWOhio for proving my point, and to Spider for re-stating my case so eloquently!!! First, let me agree that I have nothing against the Moormans. I’m sure that they are fine folks. The point is, a past council made a $300,000 interest-free, forgivable loan of the taxpayers’ money and gave them a building with the anticipation that their “artsy” business would spur economic growth downtown. It has not done so!!! Now, five years later, another council is on the verge of doing a very similar thing, again with taxpayers’ money, on even worse terms for the taxpayer, for the same reasons, with even less chance for a favorable outcome for the taxpayers, and no one is willing to look back at this deal! Beau Verre has been a success, but it has been successful for no one but the Moormans. And that is fine as long as they live up to all of the terms of the agreement and are good corporate citizens, but it has NOT spurred economic development in the area. In that regard, the experiment using the taxpayers’ funds has been proven to be ill-conceived!!! Which part of this picture is so difficult to understand??? Why should we expect a different result if we try the same experiment over again (with even worse terms for the taxpayers)??? Would Robinette or Kohler or Gilleland or Landen or any member of city council, using their own money, make a $200,000 loan to Verdin having only the Ross building as collateral??? NO!! So how, in good conscience, can they make a 100 times worse loan using the people’s money??? And all of those mentioned have taken an oath that they are violating in either recommending or allowing this to proceed!!! |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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wow 409--that settles it. good info as usual, SWOhio
fortunately I am not old enough to remenber that. What about you, SWO?
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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I sure don't remember that, and I remember Noah saying that it looked like rain!!!
Maybe John Rossi was the original owner and it was called the John RossI building???
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Thanks SW Ohio for the info. Just goes to show, you learn something new everyday no matter how long you've been around. Nice job on the research and the picture 409.
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