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AJ Smith talking during council meetings |
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acclaro 
Prominent MUSA Citizen 
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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 Posted: Nov 18 2010 at 10:36pm |
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Ashkicker, I always enjoy the depth and irectness of your responses. Well thought and articulated.
I have a former Ohio fire chief in the family and was engaged to the daughter of a Chief in Atlanta. State that only that I have a very good feel for the structure and running of the stations and such. Its a moot point for me to bring up anything about collectibe bargaining, runs, and such. The police get far more overtime than the fire department, but the deputy chiefs many times stay where they are to get it, instead of being chief. The perks in benefits are fantastic, and by law, I believe the city and county 9if a county employee), have to pay into the OPERS pension, 20% of salary. That's why the "double or triple dip is so accepted as a cost benefit---pay salary to those already drawing a pension.
The job is dangerous, but so is working at AK or driving down I-75 to get to the office on Vine Street. To my knowledge, I don't think there have been a handful of firemen whom were killed in action in Middletown in a century (thankfully).
I heard a reliable source who owns several gas stations in the area, a city employee in the tax division stated 50% of Middletownians are unemployed. I simply cannot see how these wages and benefits are sustainable in the city, although city hall seems to find a way to always be able to add people, while talking the "tight" talk too often. My gripe about the union is it is a means of advancement and security. Look at the standards to the police chief: seniority and getting highest score with minimum of 70%. That's why neither department wants to make cuts, because it impedes the ladder upward mobility (pardon the pun).
Enough said. Just a suggestion the union head should be looking at the trends and think about serious negotiation, same for police. These benefits and pensions, and pretty nice pay, at six figures in Middletown, is a very comfortable existence. We both know the high % of firemen that work side jobs, or do HVAC. etc., on the days they have off.
Great profession, just like all public sector has become. Man, was I fool to think I'd work for 40 years at my first career endeavor. Today, average turnover top to bottom, in private sector is 3 years. I'll take 30 years and out at 50 any day of the week. Average fed pay is $150 kk. I think you'll see some changes coming in the future, including OPERS raising retirement age.
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Voice of Reason
MUSA Resident 
Joined: Oct 13 2010 Location: Williams Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Posted: Nov 18 2010 at 10:43pm |
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Acclaro,
I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying, but the 50% unemployment number in Middletown is not nearly accurate. I would question the validity/sanity of that source if I were you. They either are vastly confused about statistics and percentages or they have no understanding of how unemployment is calculated. It does make me worried that if a person in the tax division of Middletown thinks 50% is the correct number.
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"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Voice of Reason
MUSA Resident
Joined: Oct 13 2010 Location: Williams Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Posted: Nov 18 2010 at 10:46pm |
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Oh, and Ms. Scott Jones, I would be remiss if I didn't give credit where credit is due--I agree with your stance that the city has to take chances on things like Cincy State, even with the City Centre Mall, Lake "Mistake" and other failures fresh in our memory.
Those bad ideas do not inherently mean that investing in Cincy State is also a bad idea.
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"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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ashkicker
MUSA Resident
Joined: Jun 16 2009 Status: Offline Points: 86 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 12:16am |
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Spiderjohn,
why the large truck for emergency runs? any other choice of vehicles? are the large trucks as medically-equipped as the emergency vehicles? All engines carry paramedics, paramedic supplies and drugs for the serious calls. Engine 82 and Quint 84 both are equipped with defibrillators for heart attack victims. Engine 81 and Engine 83 are equipped with AED's for heart attack victims. The engines can do almost everything as a medic except transport the patient.
By the way, 1000 is not a good reason to stop posting. I enjoy and look forward to reading your posts. Please reconsider your departure.
Voice of reason
Top paid fire fighters make approximately $58,500. A number I have heard in the past is an average of $75,000 for each fire fighter. I feel pretty good that we fall within your $90,000-$100,000 range.
I am having a problem following your logic. You state " I can't imagine many of your fellow firefighters would be opposed to such a high-compensation/high-expectation philosophy, and those who are might just be those who prefer to coast". Are you saying the current fire fighters are just coasting? I know this is a leap, but are you suggesting if fire fighters were paid more, we would work harder and therefor not need as many fire fighters?
The 8 (or 12) hour shift vs. the 24 hour shift is something most people cannot comprehend. I'm not saying you are dumb, it's a totally different beast. When I started the 24 hour shifts from the norm of an 8 hour shift, it's different than what I thought it would be. There are still aspects of my job my wife doesn't understand. If we were to sit down at a table we might be able to see this issue similarly.
Negotiations - if the sides cannot reach an agreement, the contract goes to fact-finding. The Union gives their argument, the City gives their argument. The fact-finder can recommend the Union side, the City side or something else. That is not binding. If either side rejects the fact-finder, it goes to concilliation. The Union gives their side, the City gives their side. The concilliator must choose the Union side OR the City side. The concilliator has no latitude, it's one side or the other. Concilliation is binding. Now the fact-finder and the concillator are choosen off a list. The list contains an odd number of names. Each side goes back and forth striking names until only one is left. Now image you are on the list and your awards are "generally in favor of the union". Who do you think the City is going to strike first? In the awards I have seen, generally, it is about a 50/50 split. You can't make much money if you are stricken from the list early in the process.
As fire fighters, we are prohibited by law to strike. If we didn't have collective bargaining, the City could say take it or leave it and we would have no recourse. Do you remember the public safety levy? We (the citizens and the fire fighters) were told it was necessary to MAINTAIN our public safety services. I'm not exactly sure of the split, but I beleive it was around 60/40 in favor of the police department. We lost a Deputy Chief, fire training Captain and Fire Marshal this year. Those position cuts have put a strain on the department.
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Anita Scott Jones
MUSA Immigrant 
Joined: Aug 25 2009 Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 12:22am |
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Voice of Reason,
My main concern centers around the reserves and how we got to 25% without new revenues coming in and the public safety levy not bringing in what was projected. Now, we are spending down to 15% and I don't agree that the path taken is the best. I believe that the budget can be further simplified. The city staff has their job to do and we have ours. I simply view the budget from a different perspective. A budget is just that. It can be conservative or liberal (forgive the political analogy) as far as assumptions go. Just because something has been done a certain way for years doesn't mean it is the best way. I commend the staff for their efforts. However, I also believe that our budget is overly cumbersome.
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Anita Scott Jones
MUSA Immigrant
Joined: Aug 25 2009 Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 12:24am |
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The decisions we make will always put us in a catch 22 stance. However, we should never get to the point where we don't try.
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council 
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 4:08am |
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Usually, I find your posts most informative and logical, but for some reason I just can’t seem to follow you on this subject. Now I get it if there is a multi-vehicle accident, or victims trapped in cars, or a structure collapse, or similar circumstances. I also understand if the engine is simply much closer than the life squad. What I can’t understand is why the engine should respond to other calls when it seems likely that the squad will get there first and there is only one victim involved. I also remain confused as to why two vehicles must accompany a single victim to the ER. (I am assuming that “ER” means hospital emergency room.) Any help that you can provide will be appreciated. |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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VietVet
MUSA Council
Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 7:26am |
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ashkicker- for my family's needs, you guys in the medic units and the big red fire trucks are a blessing. The wife has had two seizures since her stroke back on Oct of 2009. Scary thing to see someone having a seizure and being helpless to do anything about it. Called 911 on both occasions and the medics and a fire unit were dispatched and arrived within 5 min. Nice to have four or five responders who know their stuff show up when you think your wife is dying before your eyes.
God Bless you and your other professional colleagues. The fire department response, the medical care she received at Atrium in Emergency, ICU and in Rehab and the supporting cast are a very bright spot in a town with alot of other problems. You folks are NOT one of those problems IMO.  
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middletownlost
MUSA Immigrant
Joined: Oct 15 2010 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 7:42am |
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Ashkicker, please stop your whining over losing three positions, when the police have not only lost 12 positions since 1996, but three administrative positions as well (2 deputy cheifs and a Lieutenant).
The reason the MPD gets 60/40 is because not only have they lost more positions, their call volume is double the MFD or close to it.
The fact is that arbitration is bad for the future. It has gotten to the point where non union employees get nothing while fire and police continue to get raises each year no matter how good or bad performance is. This city cannot keep handing out raises left and right while income into the city does not increase. How hard is that to understand? It's basic economics.
The average public appreciates what you all do in public safety, but they dont appreciate the constant crying and whining over your cut administrative positions and salary increases. I have a degree, have worked for my company for years and been given outstanding annual performance evaluations and have yhet to see a raise in 3 years. You know why? We cant go to an arbitrator and hold our employer hostage for more money - BECAUSE THERE IS NONE.
Both the fire and police departments keep us all safe and do a great job. You have helped my family as well as my friends. But what do you want the city to do? The city is dying, not thriving. I know for a fact that the police department has as little as 7-8 officers out on busy saturday nights. Thats it. In a city of 50,000. So you arent the only part of the city hurting for staffing.
Try to think about it from a public point of view.
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middletownlost
MUSA Immigrant
Joined: Oct 15 2010 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 7:48am |
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 8:12am |
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Ashkicker- I restate I appreciate your articulate communication and devotion to setting he record straight as best you can. To clarify, the 24 hr shifts are such that firemen get to rest, sleep, and are on call at the station. You cook together, which makes the famous "firemen's chili" and other dishes an outcome, as well as forming tight continuity. What about those on call with pagers on weekends, and such---they also could easily amortize the additional hrs and state what you did: adding 16 hrs weekly and calculating the wage per hr looks dismal or a bargain, but its not a constant run 24 hrs non stop.
I would state as many have previously, there is a need or benefit of evaluating augmentation through volunteers, although I would suggest in arguendo, w/o statistical support as I don't have it, that runs, transporting patients from home to hospital, consumes a larger portion of time annually than putting out fires. I'm sorry but I don't see the analogy in danger. Yes, you get paid to fight fires, and I get paid for other skills, but the danger in getting killed statistically, is higher with a long commute than working in a town the size of Middletown awaiting a fire. That is not to say you aren't respected nor appreciated (plural meaning department and individually). The public sector unions, IMO, have just put the state and country in a pinch. The benefits are great, pay fine, and when we discuss the second job opportunities, it is because the work week is shortened. Many would take a 3-4 day week, such as the nurse who works 2-3 12 hr shifts and gets paid 40 hrs, not bad for time management.
I am not pitting fire department vs ploice, both have a service to perform, and other issues associated with compensation, and such. I also recall the Chief indicating that the department could get by with the three cuts you reference.
Anita-Scott Jones- My issue or response to you is you indicated Middletown had to take a risk and had previously been afraid to do so. I disagree resdpectfully. The city has taken many risks, virtually all failures. The city just doesn't seem to get it. Is it a city that wants to establish itself as a commuter town, or an industrial town? PAC is very high risk, as art just doesn't create a destination in heart nor mind. How about a Children's Science Musuem as many cities have, which draw many (including young professional adults)? What is unique about PAC? Have not its other successes been associated with pre-existing destinations that it leveraged? I'm sorry, I just am skeptical this will be a destination for others outside Middletown.
As for the confusion on the budget, those are legitimate concerns. Why is money flowing in and out of the general fund? What was the 25% reserve so critical a few years ago to protect a bond rating, but not now? What is the city doing to improve the ability for the property owner to protect the asset owned? Why does the city own a golf course, an airport? Is that a tangible asset which a clear ROI can be calculated, or a warm and fuzzy "intangible" one, just like art creates a "uality of life" uplift? is a pool a more appealing quality of life benefit, a bike trail, or an art location? How much do the average pieces of PAC cost vs the art reproductions one can buy at the true destinations locally---the Monroe fle markets?
Finally, I have to ask. Why have not you or any of city council, called for the infrastructure funds to be put back in place, so the streets and repairs can be made. If Middletown is not a destination for home buyers, including those desperately desiring to sell to move to West Chester or Mason, why would an art center? I perceive the failures on council and city leadership to be one of prioritization- it just sets the wrong ones, chronically.
I think Cinci State has > potential, but I see it more as a bail-out of the Thatcher estate, and saving The Manchester from LEASE signs.
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Nelson...Himself
MUSA Resident
Joined: Sep 08 2010 Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 8:25am |
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Good Morning Acclaro,
Thank you for stating the following question in your last post:
"What is the city doing to improve the ability for the property owner to protect the asset owned?"
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 8:30am |
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M Lost- you missed the point entirely. It was about unions, not fire department vs ploce department (which it appears you avor police). I get it on the Chief, but to say senioroty has liitle import, and unionization, is in error. Getting to Deputy Chief takes promotions, politics, and testing, and interviewing. I don't see 70% a high standard to meet, but that's not what determines who gets the position in Middletown---its politics and other factors not worth mentioning.
You reference the private sector, I agree. You missed the point on unions. Look at Springboro: super resigns, as does the treasurer. Treasurer stays 3 months, has a new job in Miasmisburg I think. What would happen in private sector? Start job in 3 months and begin interviewing? You'd be perceived as someone with a past, moving too much, and the odds of getting a job, impossible. With the unions in public sector, you move easily and rapidly. That was the point- unions, and their impact, not who serves the city better, fire or police.
Playing the "card" who is more valuable to Middletown or any community a lossing hand ML. .
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Paul Nagy
MUSA Citizen 
Joined: Jan 11 2009 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 8:34am |
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Acclaro,
You state the situation quite precisely. The risks must be calculated risks. The projects must be neccesary to bring businesses and jobs not amenities or special interests projects in these financial crisis times. Hiring of city employees must be limited and even they and their unions must share the sacrifice. It is all about the use and abuse of taxpayers money. We need a balanced budget not a deficit budget. We need a budget that is not only balanced but has within it a plan to take us to a better level. We have been told repeatedly that soon these benefits and pensions are going to bankrupt the city. It is time for financial discipline on everyones part. We need to become financially sound and concentrate for a few years on infrastructure, public safety and jobs period.
Paul Nagy
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middletownlost
MUSA Immigrant
Joined: Oct 15 2010 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 8:40am |
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 Great points.
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Bill
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 9:17am |
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What was surprising at the last council meeting, though it shouldn't have been, was when it became apparent that the city (Robinette) had not even discussed with the banks whether it was possible to only purchase the CG&E building. When questioned, Robinette said he would have to look into it "tomorrow" and then some chuckling occurred. Why wasn't this look into beforehand? Why was it assumed the gullible city would just buy up all the properties? I'm not saying the purchase will not work out, just wondering why all options weren't investigated beforehand.
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 9:47am |
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What bothers me is the appearance or possibility so much of the decisions are made to support the :historical" area of Middletown homes, where Larry Mullligan, his parents, Mr. Kohler, and others reside. Consider if the city did take a wrecking ball downtown? So what? I repeat----what does Mason have downtown, Springboro, or West Chester? Nothing. Its peripheral outliners by 75 and niche antique stores. I think Cinci State will be fabulous if every program they offer in Cinci is offered in Middletown. PAC---I am doubting Thomas.
But, what provoked the rush to save the Manchester? The legacy of Mr. Thatcher, his dream, or the city workers and council members who place protecting their own personal asset interests (homes on Main Street) above other interests? I have no answers, and I am not indicating that to be the motivation, but PAC and a campus within walking distance of the historic row begs the ? to be asked. If the option was A) tear down the buildings or have a LEASE sign, or B) make a deal with limited revenue coming back into the city, but adds assets to surround the historic area, seems a reasonable question to contemplate.
I request the city simply begin to realize its mission: 1) Protect its citizens 2) Minimize expense and uplift efficency and productivity while providing reasonable infrastructure and driving costs down (raising water bills doesn't meet that objective 3) Investments and divestitures made in areas no city should have an interest, or provides a benefit for a few but not majority (golf and airport).
Its the logic of decisions which remain baffling.
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Bill
MUSA Citizen
Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 10:00am |
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Another thought is will the acquisition of the CG&E building result in the removal of the tenants, i.e. Casper & Casper law firm? If they leave town, there goes their tax money. |
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 10:06am |
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Once again--with these pretty much useless/valueless properties having loans, mortgages and back taxes to clear up in the Thatcher estate, and the long time frame for Cincy St. to take possession and begin operations---- why the urgency to once again decale "emergency legislation"?
Why not take necessary time to get everything sorted out and explained to the taxpaying citizens?
Also notice the waffling by Smith,Becker and Allen, who had reservations/didn't agree with buying the bank buildings--but then quickly voted "yes" on the project. Mayor Mulligan's and ED Robinette's explanations on the whole building package and potential usage would be laughable if this wasn't such an important matter/decision.
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 10:46am |
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If I were an existing owner of commercial property, why would I not be offended by the city taking care of one owner, and not others? As spider stated, Cinci State in no rush, why the city---inheritance tax driving factor?
Mr. Becker was one of the biggest naysayers about downtown....but votes a resounding yes. How many staff does Cinci State estimate will be in Middletown? Is this a small satellitte for them, with the city holding the bag for years to come while they decide what to put in besides culinary?
Ms. Moon had an excellent comment: tearing down parking garage and Swallen's building to save on maintenance and utililies but how much $$$ will be expended awaiting the CS move? This has far more $ than answers. Fire, Ready, Aim continues. Is this the advice Mr. Allen would give a client?
Will the city buy the Jug, CSH building, the Moon Adrion building, K Mart, Save a Lot's (if it closes), and countless others? If not why? I just feel "historic row" in play on this "emergency". Better buy now why pricing is low? Serious questions resound on this acquisition as with PAC.
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council
Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 11:38am |
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Acclaro It is my understanding that the
Sooo will the City give this building to the Historical Society later?  Since the City wanted all those poor people out of downtown are they going to buy the US Hotel from the Finkleman family also? Lots of questions about a lot of money.... |
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 12:24pm |
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Agree Ms. Moon, but the city seems to place certain entities and businesses before the residents. This is reaching serious status. Residents are just getting hammered in Butler Cty associated with mismanagement. Taxes high, cty looking at raising sales tax, to cover mismanagement. When the real estate floor is hit, it will leave many at jarring levels.
What's the hurry to buy? Seems the benefactor is the Thatcher estate, and the historic Main Street owners. Far too many ?'s with no answers, just assumptions and speculation. Wasn't it recent, all teh talk was about the east end---what's perculating out there? The reason for all these emergency sessions is to bypass the time the citizens can riase issues. Same strategy Obama and Company used to cram healthcare reform down our throats.
?????? with no answers. Par for course, but why bother with the public? Father knows best.
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Nelson...Himself
MUSA Resident
Joined: Sep 08 2010 Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 12:48pm |
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The essence of governance in Middletown is: "Don't mess with the boss. She rules absolutely!"
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Voice of Reason
MUSA Resident
Joined: Oct 13 2010 Location: Williams Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 12:51pm |
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Ms. Moon and Acclaro,
If the city hadn't torn down the Swallen's building and parking garage (which were blighted eyesores and were producing nothing for the city), how would that have altered the costs associated with the Cincy State project? They would be paying to maintain those buildings whether Cincy State was coming or not, so why not get them out of the way and clear the way for some development? The point is that if they hadn't torn them down they would still be paying to maintain them anyway, so there is no incremental additional cost to the city. Think about this: would you have preferred that they not tear down the Swallen's building and parking garage and instead pay to maintain those useless structures? What exactly is your alternative?
As far as saving the Manchester--it seems like a great way to save a historic landmark and also satisfy the needs of Cincy State. And we can argue all day long about whether the city is getting a good deal or not at the prices they have agreed to pay for the buildings, but the fact that the city is paying substantially less than the appraised taxable value is at least an indicator that they aren't getting the worst deal possible.
And Acclaro--there is a pretty clear difference in why the city would want to buy the Manchester and not the Jug--that being the Cincy State deal. I know of no community colleges interested in operating out of the Jug. Do you? Is this a bailout of the Manchester? Maybe, but it is my understanding that the Manchester has been losing money for quite a while now, so they could have simply shut their doors if they really wanted to, and it serves the City's purposes quite nicely to obtain that asset and lease it to Cincy State. You can hardly argue that it's a bailout of the Manchester when there is this potentially great deal for the city occurring at the same time. A bailout of the Manchester would involve the city purchasing it with no other user in sight. Then I would certainly agree that the Manchester had been bailed out, but that's not the case here.
One final question for Ms. Moon and Acclaro: what specifically should the city have done differently with regard to this Cincy State matter? How else could they have convinced Cincy State to come to Middletown without the Manchester and nearby buildings? What else should the city be doing differently?
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"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Molly
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Joined: Oct 10 2010 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
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Posted: Nov 19 2010 at 1:43pm |
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I hope someone can inform me of what happens to the buildings the city bought, should Cincy State decide not to come here? I don't believe there are any contracts between Cincy State and the city that are binding, unless I am mis-understanding something.
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