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Issue 5-Collective Bargaining

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Middletown News Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 06 2011 at 3:59pm


Here is what he said last year.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 07 2011 at 6:43am
OK ashkicker and other union supporters.....from the Journal-Columbus Bureau.......

From the Buckeye Institute- A CONSERVATIVE based outfit-

"The answer is not so clear-cut. “It is clear no matter how you slice it, that the total compensation package for state government workers far exceeds their private sector neighbors,” says a study released in July 2010 by The Buckeye Institute, a conservative think tank that advocates for smaller government".

"The Buckeye Institute, which has posted searchable databases of government employee pay on its website, found that the median state government worker makes 24.6 percent more than the private sector peer — $36,858 compared with $29,586".

HOWEVER.......we have conflict.....

From another "think tank"-nonpartisan....

"A report by the Economic Policy Institute, a nonpartisan think tank focused on low- and middle-income workers, came to a different conclusion: Full-time state and local government employees in Ohio are paid 5.9 percent less than comparable private sector workers, according to the EPI. When accounting for annual hours worked, they make 3.3 percent less".

Benefits....

Benefits of public
vs. private workers

Public employees do enjoy greater fringe benefits.

"State government workers pay 17 percent of their health care premium costs while Ohio private sector workers pay 23 percent, according to the Buckeye Institute. Local government workers pay an average of 7 percent of their premium costs, according to the State Employment Relations Board".

Quite a descrepancy in benefits contributions...7% for local gov. workers to 17% for state to 23% for the private sector. (Can you understand my lack of support for your cause with these numbers?)

Retirement age...

"Current rules allow teachers to retire after 30 years on the job; police and firefighters may retire as young as 48. Almost unheard of in the private sector, especially in positions lower than middle management. Most workers won't be able to accrue enough for early retirement with the wages and bennies they are given at that early age. 55 would be the earliest, IF you watched every dime and plowed the maximum allowed into investments from when you started working at age 19 to 25. Most can't do this as they are pursuing a home, a couple of cars, having kids/saving for college for the kids....no money left to invest or save for retirement. No vacations, no bass boat, no membership to the country club, no "extras" would be affordable if the desire is to retire early.

Pensions/retirement accounts...

"Workers instead often are given 401(k) programs that do not guarantee a pension amount when the employee retires. Also, private sector workers must wait until they’re 67 before they can collect full Social Security benefits".

Actually, according to my Social Security yearly statement listing all the years I worked and the salaries made each year, if I retired now, at 62, I would receive approx. $1385 per month. If I retire in 5 years at 67, I receive approx. $1835 per month. If I wait and retire at 70, which I will do (if I last that long), I will receive the full SS retirement benefit of approx. $2400 per month. (All of my 401K's from the current and previous companies won't be enough to suppliment the SS check each month without working to 70- they've lost too much money over the years) The article is wrong by stating the full retirement benefits are realized at 67. Not true. It is at 70 according to these numbers and my yearly SS work history.

Just some info. that helps re-enforce my thinking that we need to bring the union shop wages and bennies in line with the majority of the working world nowadays.   



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Middletown News Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 07 2011 at 10:47am
Great Post VietVet! I'm ok with unions, but when total compensation packages get way out of line with my non-union brothers and sisters, then I have to say unions and their membership have crossed the line.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ashkicker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2011 at 9:28pm
For my final post, I offer the following:
 
Pay,
 
"When I graduated from college, the private sector was where the action was. The pay was better, you still had some semblance of life-time employment if you kept your nose clean, and a pension"  So I guess back in the day you guys were complaining to the state and our Governor about the low wages and benefits in the public sector.  Probably not.  Funny how when you were doing good, that was okay.
 
Benefits,
 
Okay, I'll try is one more time.  The City comes to us with concerns about rising health care costs.  We remove the bulk of our health care language from our contract and agree to pay the same as non-unioon employees.  Collective bargaining worked.  While my contract allows the City to take more than what the non-union pays, they choose to take less than the contract amount.  How is that my fault?  If you pick up an item at the store that is on sale, do you demand to pay full price at the register?  No Geico commerical will ever convince me the answer is yes.
 
Retirement,
 
Could you climb a ladder at 70?  Do CPR for 15 minutes at 65?  Breathe air and drag a 200 pound man out of a 1200 degree house at 60?  I doubt it.  However, if you would like to give it a try go to the fire house on Tytus and tell them you would like to try the Combat Challenge.  Give me a heads up because I want to be there when you try it.  The other day we had medic unit that ran their normal runs throughtout the day and around 2:30 in the morning starting running again.  They got back to the station around 6:30 that morning.  Somehow I don't think sitting at a desk compares.
 
Pensions,
 
Image paying into Social Security and receiving a monthly check in the amount of $0.  Yep, each paycheck I receive in the private sector has taxes taken out that I will never see.  Since you are all about fairness with the public sector, please write your legislator and get this changed immediately.  After all, if you work your regular job and a part time job, you get credit for all those taxes taken out.  I'm sure Kasich will address this issue as soon as SB5 passes.
 
How about a couple of other issues.  Why is Kasich the 14th highest paid Governor in the US?  Since he has never been Governor before, shouldn't he have started out at a lower salary like fire fighters do?  What is going on with his cabinet appointments?  Some of his appointees getting almost a $50,000 raise over their predecessors?  Image all the jobs he could have created if he hadn't given out those raises.
 
I have to bargain to get a pay raise while State Legislators vote in their own pay raises.  ORC 101 gave legislators as much as a 3% AUTOMATIC raise from 2002 to 2008.  How does that saying about the fox and the hen house go?  I'm sure you know.
 
Sick time is a benefit I have to bargain to get.  What do our legislators get for sick time?  From the Guidebook for Ohio Legislators, Chapter 3 -- "A member who is absence from session due to illness or other reason can continue to receive a paycheck if the absence is excused by formal action of the appropriate house."  I wonder how many of the excuses were ever turned down.  I know all you guys out there in the private sector get the same benefit and I am jealous.
 
What happens to the legislator that dies in office?  Again from the Guidebook for Ohio Legislators, Chapter 3 -- "If a member dies in office, the law provides for the continued payment of the member's salary to certain individuals.  As implemented by the House and Senate, any portion of the salary that has not been paid to the member is paid in monthly installments to his or her surviving spouse, children, mother, or father, in that order."  So a legislator is in Columbus for a month and passes away.  You and I are on the hook for 47 more months of salary in addition to the full salary of his/her replacement.  I hear P & G, Lowes, Bob Evans and the Middletown Journal have implemented the same policy.
 
Legislators pay 10% into their pension and have the option to pay in an addition 4% to "receive an additional annunity on retirement."  I remember several posters here having the same option in their company plans.
 
Recently I spoke with a House member and he said something had to be done to the collective bargaining process.  His example was teachers in Ohio don't pay anything towards their health care.  I asked him how much HE paid for health care.  Hold onto the arm of your chair, don't let your mouse get away from you and adjust the screen brightness .........HE PAYS 0% to his state provided health care.  I wonder what fairness smells like, probably the same as the bull barn at the fair.
 
Bottom line, House and Senate members can pass legislation to bring themselves into line with the Union members that are killing this state.  There will be no protest, pro or con, no members fleeing the state to avoid a vote.  Kasich won't have to get on TV and explain how legislators are killing job creation in Ohio.  He won't have to explain how this legislation will give control back over to the governing bodies.
 
Will that ever happen?  No, but Ohioians that go to work every day and risk their lives?  Scourge of the earth!  Blood sucking leeches!  Heartless individuals!
 
Well, I guess it's time for me to retire to my palacial estate located on the lake overlooking my boatslip.  The new bass boat will be here tomorrow.  Since the BMW won't pull it, I will have to purchase a new truck to do the job.
 
I have always posted what I believe to be the truth, even when it didn't put fire fighters in the best light.  If you want any more information you will have to call Chief Botts or Union President Harvey.
 
Elvis (in the form of ashkicker) has left the building!  The music fades, the lights dim.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2011 at 9:50pm
Elvis, when times are good, there is revenue flowing into state coffers. When we have the worst recession, really a depression, we just don't have the complete Wall Street collapse, the issue becomes when the servants the taxpayer pay are making more than the public they serve. No more needs to be said.
 
As time went forward, it became wag the dog day. Collective bargaining and putting people in office became the tit for tat. Public servants got great pay and benefits, elected officials got put in office from those passing the collective bargaining legislature. That's when the train wreck began. This just didn't start a year ago, the problem has perculated for years.
 
Kasich will put a stop to it. Maybe we'll see you in Graceland soon. Thanks for the debate. 
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ashkicker-last reply to your responses....

Pay- "back in the day" in 1972, I left the military as an E-5 S/Sgt making a whopping $360 per month. Went to Crane Plastics from 72 to 79 and left making $113 per week. Most of the pay over the last 30 years has been in the $30,000 to $40,000 range at all the non-union companies I have worked for. Exactly when will that "funny when you were doing good" thing suppose to start for me?

Benefits- city taking less than the contract allowed. If so, they weren't looking out for their budget woes nor saving the taxpayer any money were they? Doesn't make any sense for a city to take less when they are strapped for money.

Retirement- I ain't 70 yet but I can still climb a ladder when painting the house. I ain't 65 yet, but could do chest compressions for 15 minutes. I'm 62 and think I could still drag 200 lbs. around-probably not in 1200 degrees of heat though. That's for young guys like you to do. How many times a year would the medics run this schedule? Few and far between I would imagine. We all have worked excessive overtime hours in our lives. Hell, from 1972 to 1979, I worked every summer at Crane from 7PM to 7AM for 12 straight days, then two days off (spent sleeping) then back on 12 straight. Wanna know the real kicker on this? The pay...worked Mon- Fri straight time. Sat. was time and a half..Sun. double time, then on the next Mon.- Fri. straight time again because it was considered a new week even though we were on our 8th consecutive day the following Mon.

Pensions- don't understand your statement of "paying into SS and not receiving a monthly check. Did you not pay into it enough years to earn any income from it? Funny, I receive a yearly statement from the SS advising me of the income I earned since high school and what my SS monthly payment will be at 62, 67 and 70. Most get this statement. Why would it be any different for you? (again, unless you didn't pay into the system long enough) Sick time...never had sick time hour accumulation until I started working where I am now. First time in over 40 years I had this benefit. If you quit, you lose it. If you're fired, you lost it. Currently, I have over 240 sick hours accrued. Can only use 24 at a time per occurance. Probably never will use all I have accumulated. Only have 7.5 years to work.

The legislator who dies in office gets his salary passed on? Never happens in the private sector. You die, the company cuts the money well off right now. They would never think to keep paying your salary to anyone in your family. The only money your family gets when you die is the life insurance claim payment. You are just a piece of cannon fodder for any companies nowadays. No feelings, no allegiance, just a paycheck and waiting for retirement. That's the world they have created now.

ALL public sector employees, INCLUDING POLITICIANS, need to pay a portion of their healthcare package.(and into their retirement) To be fair....15% to 20%. This includes teachers, admin, police, fire.....everyone. The taxpayers can't be paying 15% to 20% on their healthcare package at work AND paying to finance the public sector's bennies through taxes. You're killing us!

ashkicker says...

"No, but Ohioians that go to work every day and risk their lives? Scourge of the earth! Blood sucking leeches! Heartless individuals!" No, none of these descriptions.... but I'll go along with the statement "you are enjoying better wages and benefits at less cost to you and IMO, your sector needs to be brought back in line for the sake of the finances of the cities you work for and to give us taxpayers a break in affording your services" Ash...we just can't give anymore-tapped out....broke......raise starved and behind about 20 years on being able to afford the cost of living all these years. As to the politicians you mention......I can see no other solution in dealing with them except euthanasia.







"Well, I guess it's time for me to retire to my palacial estate located on the lake overlooking my boatslip. The new bass boat will be here tomorrow. Since the BMW won't pull it, I will have to purchase a new truck to do the job". Now you've finally come around to our impression of you public workers and your country club lifestyle. Was that so hard to admit? Why did you insist on fighting us in this discussion?



Farewell ash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2011 at 3:20pm
Elvis, I have to add to put the icing on the cake. The secretary to the Chief in the Fire Department started out at $44,000 and is now > $50,000 annually, with all those gravy benefits the city gets. Compare that to the Director of Nursing, Butler Cty Health, MSN, >30 yr Nursing, UNC grad, $42Kk base, Director of Epidemiology, MSN, >30 yrs Nurse, Miami, UNC grad grad, $42,000. Hell, the secretary for the detectives makes over $50,000 and Betsy Parr, a clerk for council, she is near $70,000. Look at Rhonda Freeze down in Butler Cty, filed complaint when making $83,000 tamed to $69,000., plus her Mayor court fees and cash.
The RN's in Butler Cty make about $35 Kk annually and haven't had a raise in 5 years. Compare that to the pay range for a Middletown water worker, wanting $30/ hr, 240. daily, 1200.weekly, or about $65,000 annually with OT.

It has ended. At least you got the annuity in Graceland coming to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2011 at 3:25pm
Vet, a polite suggestion to place your comments in bold or italics to distinguish from Ash's.  Hard to follow.  Anyway, Ash mentions that some posters have the option to pay in an addition 4% to "receive an additional annunity on retirement."  Not sure that I saw anyone comment on that.  Who out there has an "annuity" on retirement other than public employees?
And the comparison to the legislators is off target.  Yes, they are getting too much and that should change, but their perks are small potatos compared to the unions.
 
In the end, would anyone of us making...say $20/hour go ahead and hire a house cleaner at $30/hour?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 10 2011 at 7:42pm
Thank you Bill for the suggestion. I will try that in the future.

My employer will allow us to place up to 15% of our wages into our 401K in a given year. Periodically, we have the option of changing that percentage back to 10 or to 5% if we choose. They match up to a certain percentage up to 10% I believe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2011 at 11:04am
From the Soundoff in the Journal on Monday, April 25th......

Regarding the April 18 article “Public workers fare better than private with benefits”: This attack on public workers is getting shameful. I wish The Journal would post the fact that public workers don’t live as long as private workers because of all the stress and headaches. Now The Journal is just adding to the stress and headaches with attacks on public workers. Yet The Journal hides an article in the back of the paper about how the super-rich had their taxes lowered. If the United States and the state (budgets) are so bad, why are they lowering the taxes on the super-rich and why is it on the back page? People should be more outraged about that than some public workers having some benefits so they can live out a few years before they die. It’s shameful.

We now have a public worker that is claiming that public workers have more stress on the job than private workers do. This claim comes despite the fact that private workers can be fired on the spot and downsized at any time, have no collective bargaining and take what the boss wants to give them, must pay 15-24% in payroll deductions for medical and dental benefits premiums, pay anywhere from 5-15% into their retirements while public workers pay a fraction of those costs and usually enjoy a higher hourly pay range for a comparable job.

Nope, just can't buy into the claim this public worker is making. The facts and numbers don't support the claim. Hard to justify that public workers bust their hump when you walk into any government office and see how fast they're moving and the overall climate of the working environment when they stare at you, the client, with this blank look in their eyes and lack of enthusiasm to help serve you. Sometimes, I'm thinking of buying them all plumbobs to tie to their belt loops to see if they're moving or not. I find it real comical when the caller says that the public worker doesn't live as long as a private worker due to stress. I see that public stress with the state of Ohio workers along the roads with five people standing around watching the backhoe digging the ditch while the supervisor drives up in the yellow bubble light pick-up truck to supervise the hole diggin". Good comedy.
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Today's Journal...

MIDDLETOWN TEACHERS ASSOCIATION
Keynote speaker tells Middletown teachers: 'the governor hates us'
Middletown teachers hear strong rhetoric against Gov. Kasich at the banquet.
MIDDLETOWN — The festive atmosphere of the Middletown Teachers Association’s dinner banquet was briefly put on hold Thursday night after the event’s keynote speaker stepped to the podium.

Bill Leibensperger, the vice president of the Ohio Education Association, spoke to attendees about the “battle” against Senate Bill 5 and the march toward a voter referendum.

“The governor hates us,” he said as a hush went over the union crowd. “I don’t think I’m overstating that. It’s not about jobs. It’s not about balancing budgets.”


Guess 'ole Bill and the teachers just don't get it either. It is obvious that the country, the states and most cities are cash poor, cutting services, reducing personnel, cutting back on purchases, etc, yet, VP Bill and some of the public employees in all sectors can't see the light.

No, they are all upset that their cushy ride is coming to an end, they will finally have to pay what the rest of us are paying toward bennies and retirement and that the taxpayer has had enough, especially if that taxpayer comes from the private sector. Too full of anger to see the truth, I guess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TonyB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2011 at 7:59am
Vet - Public workers and "the cushy ride" ; sounds like a novel. especially since it would be classified as a work of fiction.
 
Let's face it; everyone thinks their job is hard and everyone else has it easy. After all the venom about how public workers are the problem, is it any wonder that they perceive they are "hated"! I keep hearing the gloating about how public workers are "getting what they deserve" yet the real crooks; the leadership of this state, are seen as saving the state. How are they saving the state when Kasich gives unearned raises to staff who haven't done anything!? If you can't see that; then I'd say you are the one blind to the real truth; these bastards have workers fighting over scraps while they plunder and rape the taxpayer!!!
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Ok Tony. let's give this a ride again....

Cushy job for public workers (any government/union worker) when:

1. They have been paying 9% or less toward their benefits out of their own paychecks when private sector has been paying 15-24%.

2. Have had the taxpayer pay for their retirement packages AND they usually retire at an earlier age as an added slap in the face of the private sector taxpayer. I know some teachers that have already retired when I'm still working at 62 and still trying to build up my private sector retirement accounts to an acceptable level before I can even think about retiring.....AND. to boot, part of my taxes went into a fund to help these teachers retire early. Another boot up the keester for the private sector.

3. Union/public sector workers have had, for years, people that go to bat for them in wage/benefit negotiations and the wimps doling out the money to them, usually give in. Don't have anyone going to bat for us in the private sector. You are given a % raise and you take it or leave it. PERIOD No "negotiating" allowed.

4. They are trained and assigned a job. They only do that job and no other. They are not required to ask if anyone needs help doing their job if they are not busy. (this may have changed, but that's the way it was)

Is the private sector jealous? Hell yes. If you were in the private sector all these years and saw the playing field being as uneven as it has been ....all these years, you would want this change to even it out also. We're tired of footing the bill while the public unions lap up all the gravy. We'd like some gravy too bud.

Like I said, the public worker's bubble has burst and the gravytrain is over......and they don't like it, but want to blame everyone and everything else but the fact that their greedy negotiations over the years have finally caught up with them, IMO. They have priced themselves right out of city, state and fed budgets, IMO.

As far as everyone thinking they have it hard and everyone else has it easy....Tony, I see what the fed government workers do on a day to day basis here at Wright-Patt. It would anger you too as a taxpayer. Layers and layers of un-needed/duplicated positions, mostly papershufflers and meeting-goers.....just like middle managers in the private world. They are all un-needed/costly waste, IMO. I'm sure Kasich has his share of deadwood in the statehouse too and should not be giving any unearned raises in good or bad times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TonyB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2011 at 11:59am
Vet - Let's continue this ride!
 
It isn't the public workers bubble that has burst, it's the AMERICAN WORKERS bubble that has been deliberately stolen from them by inept management and the greed of the wealthy and their bought and paid for representatives. What I continue to not understand is that the people who created ALL of this mess are the ones getting the free ride! Who created the public worker system? That's right, politicians! Who signed all those "free" trade agreements? Politicians. Who downsized all these private sector workplaces and sent the jobs and investments overseas? Wealthy corporations who pay no taxes aided by their bought and paid for politicians! Unneeded and costly waste? Should not do something? Has that ever stopped politicians and their corporate masters? The gravytrain is over for everyone without power and influence. Look at what is happening in Michigan. Autocrats appointed by the governor that can usurp the democratically elected representatives to do as they please and think that their doing us a "favor"!!! Think Kasich won't be looking at that and licking his chops? Taking more money out of the public school system to support private profit and religious education is already happening. I AM ANGRY AS A TAXPAYER AND CITIZEN!!! I'm not angry at public workers or private workers; I'm angry at politicians who have allowed this to happen, the wealthy corporations whose only concern is making more money at any cost and the media who are complicit in this "rape" of America and the American worker!!! By the way, I lump the big unions in with the greedy corporations because while they claim to represent workers, they have contributed to the problem by shielding poor performing workers and with their outrageous rules that reward unproductive workers at the expense of others.
 
Vet, I understand the anger and the frustration but I believe it is misplaced. If we don't fix this problem at the ballot box and soon, there simply won't be anything left to fix. We are headed headlong toward autocracy (if we aren't there already) and nothing short of a people's revolution can restore America and our democratic republic. These little cosmetic changes and all the blame and finger-pointing is a smokescreen. IT IS TIME FOR AMERICANS TO WAKE UP, TAKE BACK THEIR GOVERNMENT AND VOTE THEM OUT!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2011 at 12:24pm
Tony B....

"IT IS TIME FOR AMERICANS TO WAKE UP, TAKE BACK THEIR GOVERNMENT AND VOTE THEM OUT!!!"

And vote for whom? Can't get the candidates that we need to run and really change things. The people we need that will really make a difference are those that have other obligations, don't have deep enough financial pockets to combat the current cancerous people in office, or would be swallowed up in local, state or fed gov. in Washington by the corrupt climate in each level.

When we all vote, do we really have a choice? Aren't the choices on either side of the aisle going to give us more of the same? The very nature of the make-up of a politician today requires a certain amount of corruptness and being able to be bought off by the lobbyists or they wouldn't last a week in Washington. Perhaps getting rid of the lobbyists and corporate influences in Wash. would allow the politicians to work for the people again. Never happen though. Been going on too long and the corruption is too entrenched to get rid of it. Would just like to see one politician say that they will not talk to nor take money from any lobbyist or corporation and really mean it. Hasn't happened yet, has it?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TonyB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2011 at 2:29pm
Vet - who is it that you want to run? Anyone who has the time to run either has deep pockets or has no job. My suggestion has been to vote for anyone that is not a Democrat or Republican. I haven't changed my mind about that. I agree with you about a politician who doesn't take campaign money from corporations or lobbyists might be the only hope. I guess we need to find us a lottery winner!!! lol
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