A.J. Smith

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   Thank you to all that attended. 

The next District Dialogue will be on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 at the Robert "Sonny" Hill, Jr. Community Center from 6pm - 7:30pm. 

All are more than welcome to attend!

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A.J. Smith Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Outsider Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 8	Post Options Post Reply Quote A.J. Smith Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 13 2011 at 4:25pm
	Thank you to all that attended. The next District Dialogue will be on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 at the Robert "Sonny" Hill, Jr. Community Center from 6pm - 7:30pm. All are more than welcome to attend!

Mike_Presta Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483	Post Options Post Reply Quote Mike_Presta Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 13 2011 at 12:01pm
	Mr. B., I would like to expand on one point. When I arrived (a few minutes late due to a previous commitment), the group was well into the discussion of the septic tank discussion. Before that was over, some residents seemed to want to blame Armco/AK Steel for the failure of their septic tanks as well as “secret tunnels” under Yankee Road many other problems. Mr. Picard stated that: “AK owns all of Dick’s Creek.” Since everyone seemed convinced of their “facts”, and I felt it fruitless to debate those issues, I kept my mouth shut. However, the truth of the matter is that Dick’s Creek rises in Warren County well east of any AK property. In fact, tributaries and upstream branches of Dick’s Creek run right by Atrium Medical Center and the Renaissance subdivision where Mr. Picard resides. Perhaps they are responsible for some of the pollution??? Mr. Picard, have you thrown any batteries or broken CFL light bulbs away in your back yard???
	“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012

TonyB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631	Post Options Post Reply Quote TonyB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 13 2011 at 8:15am
	Vet - I attended last nights meeting and will attempt to give a full report. No, no SB5 talk. Most of the meeting was spent with residents concerned with the septic system inspections being done by the Health Dept in Ward 2. There was also questions about how recycling can be increased in the ward and overall in the city. Mr. Picard was there and talked to redidents about the street replacement legislation and concerns were raised about 18th St where residents had previously fixed the curb and gutters but the city never paved the street. There was also a concern raised about concrete work that has yet to be finished from the gas line work on Minnesota and Mr. Smith had been told that the work would be completed by May. A concern was raised about the CDBG money being used inefficiently and Mr. Picard said he would look into the matter. It should also be noted that Mr. Mulligan attended the meeting as well. If there was anyone else there who would like to expand on this summary, please feel free. There were at least 10 citizens in attendance and, IMO, it was an informative and productive meeting.

VietVet Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008	Post Options Post Reply Quote VietVet Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 13 2011 at 7:08am
	Didn't see anything in the Journal about Mr. Smith's community meeting last night. Did anyone go and if so, how many were there and what was discussed. Hope Mr. Smith didn't go on a tangent about SB5 again. When do you think Mr. Becker, Mr. Picard, Mr. Mulligan and Mr. Allen will have their "fireside chats" with us mere mortals?

TonyB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631	Post Options Post Reply Quote TonyB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 09 2011 at 1:46pm
	groundswat -thanks for your post. After much philosophical rhetoric (mostly from me) we did return to the subject of this thread. I'm not sure why the ideas of duty and honor need be run by any citizen of this city or this country for that matter. Those were ideas that I picked up in my youth that were taught in our public schools. I've mentioned before that I went to Monroe High School even though I lived in Middletown but that was when it was the combined district. Are the ideas of duty and honor no longer taught in Middletown City Schools? I don't have an answer to that; perhaps someone else does. The rest of your post troubles me because it points to a lack of leadership and direction. I agree that trust in government is at an all-time low and where there is no trust there is animosity. That animosity has been directed at the employees of government and based on your post, they don't seem to have much trust in the leadership of their government. That trend needs to be reversed and quickly!

TonyB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631	Post Options Post Reply Quote TonyB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 09 2011 at 1:37pm
	acclaro - Your last post is a fine description of the current state of affairs in our town. It will be of interest to me who on council proposes and endorses the public safety levy. I'm pretty sure that Mr. Laubach is not in favor of the renewal of this tax (although I could be wrong about that) so it will be telling if anyone amongst current council will tie their re-election to the passage of this. Replacing MMF is something else to consider. Thanks to Mr. Presta and the info from previous threads, the city's economic development is tied to this non-profit. The issue there (as I see it) is whether Middletown Moving Forward has also engaged in electioneering which I would interpret (based on reading the law) as a conflict of interest and illegal. The persons associated with the CIC have one thing that cannot be discounted; deep pockets! Recent elections have proven that a campaign of disinformation and partial information is effective in deceiving voters. Overcoming that will prove a monumental task. I do agree that if the water dept profits were used to fund other programs that it might be legit. If they actually identified what they were using those extra revenues for it would add some credibility. Universities use their football and basketball programs to pay for the rest of the athletic department which I see as a clever and smart use of resources. It's also very transparent because they tell us that is what they do. IMO, that is the litmus test for anyone who wants to run for council: a pledge to make city government more transparent. We can disagree on a number of issues that might determine support for a candidate but at the end of the day, I won't support anyone who can't make that pledge. I also agree that citizens don't need to pay by assessment for what they have already paid for in taxes. Is it me or is FIX THE STREETS!!! too complicated a message to understand?

acclaro Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878	Post Options Post Reply Quote acclaro Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 09 2011 at 12:57pm
	Tony, I think we should focus our cumulative efforts n what we can control in Middletown. What I see we can control immediately, is the outcome of the next election in november. Using your term, we vote out the Allen's, Mulligan's, others, that do nothing to advance the fundamentals which are associated with running Middletown. in my opinion, that includes ASJ, as no one, with the exception of Josh laubach has even acknowledged the fact for 25 years, Middletown has not made an effort to put on the ballot, the previous MANDATE to put funds that cannot be ysed for payroll or pet projects, and used to pave roads for citizens. They also need to focus on core functions of running a city, and that is accomplished initially by starving them---get that tax back to 1.5%. We have no hope that I am aware, of credible candidates being able to run against anyone sponsored by MMF. Not that we don't have bright candidates or citizens, we do, they just don't have the luxury of walking across the street like Allen does, or Mulligan and others, that get elected. I agree that a city's main function is to supply the absolute best possible service at the most economical price point. I don't mind if profit is made in one area, as long as it is still the most economical price in the area, they do it efficiently, and they use those profits to provide citizens with even more services. The fact is, in Middletown, water is te cash cow, and by no means, do they use the profits to augment and provide other services. They inflate the citizen on water bills, having of course a monopoly, make a nice profit, which costs more than it should, and do not spread the profit into providing other services. You see Tony, that has been Middletown's strategy for several years now. To get levies passed, which lets hope and pray the voters will remember, they take services away as punishment. The city used to pick up leaves in the fall, but for 5-7 years, they stoped that, to use as a bargaining chip for the the 2.25% levy they attempted. Now, by all evidence before us, they intend to not even make a feeble attempt at telling the citizens they aren't even going to pave roads a liitle each year. Rather, they offer this dumb plan citizens will pay to have their tax money used for over-inflated salaries for over inflated personnel, and the citiens will actually PAY to have the city pay to have that done. Can you believe that one Tony? In fact, from what I recall, te city has budgeted, and perhaps city council already approved, about $600,000 in asphalt euipment and of course capital, thinking citizems would pay for a service they have been deprived since 1986, and to prepare for that, the city is ready to invest in the equipment to pay for the paving that cotizens will pay the city to do, abobe and beyond the taxation. When you sum it up, other than the great bargains outsiders can get by Middletown ruining home owner value, there isn't any economic value to be had in Middletown. Taxes aren't low, services are terrible, well...you get the point. So, the only constructive initiative in 2011 is one agenda item: DEFEAT the tax of 1.75% and bring it back to 1.5%. Then. the other issues can be tackled such as how to replace MMF or have parity, with candidates that will actually win an election on council and work for constituents and not carrying water for the city. And indeed, ol H2O in Middletown, is a cash cow, and pretty sacred.

TonyB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631	Post Options Post Reply Quote TonyB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 10:14pm
	acclaro - I agree that AJ will not be recalled. Many of you on here have me convinced that MMF (whichever one that is) will sweep their candidates into office in the fall. Don't see a coherent plan or a coordinated effort that will change that; IMO.

acclaro Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878	Post Options Post Reply Quote acclaro Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 10:08pm
	GS, I had several large trees all over my property with the ice storm, I took my chainsaw, cleaned everything myself. To my knowledge, the city didn't even have a truck go out to pick up cut wood and tied branches. I ended up spending a day getting in the form ol Rumke likes, no more than 4 Ft long, neatly tied, and not weighing more than 70 ibs. I assume the workers who signed up for water break duty get paid overtime, I know my relative in Warren Cty did, and loved the time and a half, just like firemen, police, etc. Can't say anything more about AJ. He won't be recalled, Anyone who wants to try, go for it. I don't have any idea what the deal is on his campagn funding, and if he'll get that turned in in a month. If not, he's got $43,000. staring him in the pocket book.

TonyB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631	Post Options Post Reply Quote TonyB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 10:02pm
	acclaro - my friend, I believe we are getting somewhere here. If there are businesses that can do exactly what city employees do, why do we have city employees? It's the mandate thing here, IMO. Once again, why have a government if we can just have a corporation do it? I've seen your posts about our Water Department. I agree, it is being run like a business instead of a government service. That is something that our elected leaders need to be looking into. IMO, that service should not be run for profit. That should mean a reduction in rates and that is just my point. Run as a profit center, a government service no longer becomes service, it becomes a business and as I stated before; I just don't believe the goals of for profit business and government are compatible. I'm not against saving hundreds of thousands of dollars, my contention is that government can be run efficiently by using the private sector as a model but without the profit motive. If I'm reading your comments correctly, it seems that you are also against running the water department as a for profit business because it does not provide real value to the citizens of Middletown. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Why can't government optimize efficiency? In the end, that should be city halls ONLY motivation!

ground swat Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Citizen Joined: Mar 31 2011 Status: Offline Points: 367	Post Options Post Reply Quote ground swat Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 9:53pm
	I guess we' re not talking about A.J anymore. Duty and honor? We don't trust local government to do the right job but we should trust them to followup on subs. Just a question, but have you run this duty and honor thing by any of the employees of the city, like the folks picking up all the ice storm damage or the ones fixing a water main break in Dec. at 3 in the morning. I already know, they signed up for this type of work. Trust me these folks are scracthing their heads as much as we are about the direction this town is going in. And I would guess they aren't very happy being lumped into the union debate when fire and police get most of the spot light. Ran into a city worker looking at a apron that was poured last fall. Didn't have a inspector on hand to followup on the sub who poured the crete over the owners water shut off valve may not have records to show but we will still have to pay to have it torn out and replaced. Complicated subject, and don't think that all these "other " cities don't have these problems.

acclaro Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878	Post Options Post Reply Quote acclaro Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 9:45pm
	TonyB, I apologize, but I continue to miss your point. I tried to keep the post on the need for Middletown to focus on cuttingcosts, running at the highest level of effectivenss, but we continue to debate profit motives vs service motives. I don't see your point. Lets use another example. Southwest Airline can fly you anywhere in the United States safely and cheaply, than you can pull out the car you own, fill it up, and drive to pt A to B (assuming you are traveling at least a 2-3 hr flight. Southwest Airlines makes a profit by running highly efficent, by operating only Boeing 737's, so their mechanics can keep parts low and their mechanics know one airliner---the 737. They also fly pt to pt, not through hubs, and avoid the high cost tariff air ports. So, are you saying its wrong or studpid to fly Southwest, because they also are in the business to make money? Applying the Southwest Airlines model, we have any number of excellent businesses that can do exactly what city employees do, better, faster, and without the added burden of pensions and all the collective bargaining mess. So what's the issue: its better to give a job to a city worker than a private company, who hires the same profile of worker. Using my example about Cincinnati picking up trash, the company that will outsource trash pickup will hire those same city workers, but they will be on the private companies payroll. The former city workers were estatic! I fail to understand your point to be made. Now, lets turn again, to the fact public sector units do indeed, make profit, and operate as a profit center. I gave you an example you can check yourself, but going to the city website and evaluating their financial numbers. Its called the City of Middletown Water Department! They are a profit center, they don't pass their costs to citizens at their cost only, but they mark it up, and run at a marginal basis > than 10%. It indeed is a Profit Center and they make a profit, If you look at 675 around Wright Patterson Air Force base, you'll see signs for CSC, ACS, Battelle, SAIC, and many others.. Why is that? Because Wright Pat poutsources thousandsof jobs for 15 year intervals to contractors and subcontractors with many jobs decalred top secret. Why on earth would Middletown not be able to support an outsourcing model? I don't get it. It would save hundreds of thousands of dollars. My gosh, they should have Computer Now outsource their entire computer operations, or Cap Gemini Sogeti. They are not running efficiently, nor saving money. The private sector makes money by runing and opgtimzing efficency. They are notivated to do so; city hall is not. Its really no more complicated than that.

TonyB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631	Post Options Post Reply Quote TonyB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 9:22pm
	Vet - it might have been easier and cheaper for Middletown to give it to rumpke, my contention is that there would have been no Rumpke to give it to until it became profitable for a private company to provide the service. Once again, an instance where a government service was provided because no private company was interested in doing it until it could be made a profitable enterprise. Rumpke didn't exist until there was a profit to be made from the collection of refuse. Only then did there become a reason to turn over refuse collection to a private company. My contention isn't about whether a private company is faster or cheaper. All of us are aware of cases of government malfeisance. We also have instances where private industry is guilty of fraud, inefficiency and cost overruns while fulfilling a government contract. I have a problem about governments shirking the responsibility of providing mandated services. As a taxpayer, I AM UPSET AT THE MONEY WASTED!!! Wasted by government employees, wasted by private contractors, wasted period!!! I said before that wrong is wrong; waste is waste; doesn't matter the source. IMO, the difference is that in private industry the goal is to make a profit. I just don't believe that is the motivation behind government services and that it is a conflict of interest to ask private industry to fulfill governments' role when the goals of each are not compatible.

VietVet Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008	Post Options Post Reply Quote VietVet Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 8:51pm
	TonyB...."Vet - I disagree that cities got rid of garbage collection because of cost" Tony, it was easier and cheaper for the city of Middletown to get rid of their trucks, manpower, employee bennies, insurance premiums paid for vehicles/people, and give it to Rumpke. acclaro post at 7:28PM... "Cincinnati is looking to outsource trash pick-up for cost reasons." Looks like acclaro found some info. that supports my statement above about city cost savings. Tony, despite all the flaws with the private sector, they still do a better job, faster and cheaper in almost any area of discussion than any level of government. Surely, you are aware of the many stories concerning how slowly and inefficiently and how expensive projects can be when the government has their hands in anything. I see it everyday while working around both government employees and the military. Neither offers a hint of efficiency in their thinking and in their execution of daily activities. As a taxpayer, you would be upset at the money wasted, the layers of paper shufflers on base, the multilayers of high salary people who's jobs are so concise, they actually only work 4 out of 8 hours as their day is normally not filled with activity for a full working day. You watch government people work after coming from private industry for many years and you just shake your head in disbelief at the expectation difference in the two worlds.

TonyB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631	Post Options Post Reply Quote TonyB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 8:18pm
	acclaro - I agree that if provides the service the public wants and either saves tax dollars or is beneficial financially, that's the way it should be done. I guess I'm living in the past thinking that gov. services should be provided by government. I'm a dinosaur; probably why I'll be extinct soon.

acclaro Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878	Post Options Post Reply Quote acclaro Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 7:28pm
	OK, I'll name two:New York City collects trash with city workers, so does Cincinnati. Cincinnati is looking to outsource trash pick up as a cost saver Tony.

acclaro Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878	Post Options Post Reply Quote acclaro Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 7:26pm
	Tony, there are still many major cities that pick up trash as part of their weekly duty and expense associated with city taxation. I could name many, but the point to be is quite simple: there are cities that do waste pickup and its included in the tax paid to the city. Other cities pay a 3rd party and reap some benefit, such as Middletown, in recycing, charging for the collection of payment and a surcharge which they add to the 3rd party provider. Mike Presta's point is absolutely accurate why on many mundane and repetive chores and duties, it would servecities better to regionalize these. That's his point associated with economies of scale and scope. Why do you think hospitals, now turning back to the non profit private sector, share mri equipment? Its because it is cost prohibitive to have capital tied up in their occasional needs when the expense can be amortized through other hospitals, The same of course, through cities and regionalization, which is known as the concept of econcomics of scale. The greater the use amongst many, the lower the cost. Making this real easy, if I can get the same mower of lawns on Thursday to do my yard and 25 others, where he just has one stop to make, reserves gas, and is time, I can get a better rate per yard, maybe at $15.00, than $30.00, if he does 5, and one may want it done on Monday, another Tuesday, etc. The biggest abuser or culprit in not making utilization of the laws of economy of scale and scope is the school system and districts. Can you imagine if we did have regional treasurer's, centralized bus maintenance, one PR person for the whole southwest region of Ohio, than one PR per district? That's driving costs down. I see outsourcing to be an immensely effective tool for city hall. Will they use it? Maybe. They do pay 3rd parties to mow the grass. Is there a reason the water could not be purchased from another county, saving money, like Hamilton is doing? Of course not, but the city likes the profit center in public works. That's the problem, as Bill pointed out. There is no motivation to save money, or perform at a higher level. By having the private sector do it, there is.

TonyB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631	Post Options Post Reply Quote TonyB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 6:02pm
	Vet - I disagree that cities got rid of garbage collection because of cost. They got rid of it when it became profitable for private companies to provide the service. If there were no profit, cities would still be picking up trash regardless of the costs. If I'm not mistaken, private industry is always looking for ways to turn what was refuse in their operations into an opportunity to make a product and a profit. I think I read that early in the history of oil, gasoline was considered a "garbage" until someone found a use for it; then it became a profitable commodity.

TonyB Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Citizen Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631	Post Options Post Reply Quote TonyB Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 5:52pm
	I guess I'm simply not able to communicate properly what I'm trying to get across here. And here I was thinking I'd explained my ideas well!!! Fooled myself evidently, lol. First of all, I don't think you can compare a government entity that provides a service with a private company.To Bill's analogy about a well-run private company vs a government operation; are you trying to say that educated, talented people are not to be found among government workers? As far as a competitive advantage, that's for private enterprise; government provides services that are non-competitive that are mandated to be provided by law. When there was no profit, there was no private enterprise to perform the service and that's why government's had to pick-up garbage; it wasn't profitable. When it became profitable to do so, that's when private enterprise came in and government did the right thing by letting the marketplace dictate the service. Perhaps I am missing the point about outsourcing. I certainly understand the motivation of private corporations outsourcing certain functions, it's profit. Got that one (at least I think so). I do understand the idea of public /private partnership, what I've tried to communicate is that if it's being done by a private company for less, why wouldn't a city be able to do that since there is no profit margin to consider. Your point about shared risk is a good one; private business doesn't make a profit and they go out of business. If tomorrow there were no profit in waste collection, would Rumpke do it? No, because without that profit there is no motivation or reason to do it.. Perhaps it is pollyanna of me to think that government should be as motivated to provide the services mandated by charter or law. I honestly thought that was the job and the motivation was that you are providing a service to all citizens and since everyone's money is involved, the motivation would be there to do your best. I don't see that as little girl wishing; I see it as idealistic and striving for a more perfect union. What motivates a private company is profit, what motivates a government and it's workers should be duty and honor. What I read from all of these comments is that you disagree with that. I don't have as much trust as most of you seem to have in private enterprise to supply government services.How many cases of fraud and mismanagement can we point to where private companies managed public services. If the citizens want a private police force, private fire fighting, provate company control over water, street repair, etc., why have a government at all. Let's just swear our allegiance to the corporate logo and forget any of that other stuff about liberty and justice. So long as a profit margin is maintained, all is well. Beginning to look like the world imagined in "Rollerball". (The original, not the remake! lol)

Mike_Presta Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483	Post Options Post Reply Quote Mike_Presta Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 5:32pm
	Consider the following: Four cities in close proximity. One of 50,000 people; one of 20,000; and two of 12,000 each. One needs 5 operating ambulances and two spares; one needs 2 operating ambulances and one spare; and two need 1 operating ambulance and one spare each That is a total of 9 operating ambulances and 5 spares. If they could agree on a “standard” ambulance perhaps they could get by with 9 operating ambulances and only 3 spares--a savings of 2 spares. By re-supplying the ambulances from a common stock of supplies, they likely could all benefit from a lower cost of consumables (bandages, IVs, etc.) Could such an arrangement work for, say the cities of Middletown, Monroe, Franklin, and Trenton??? I don’t know, and perhaps ambulances is a poor example, but you get my drift, and if the same company was also supplying police cars, snow plows and other vehicles and providing routine maintenance…
	“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012

Mike_Presta Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483	Post Options Post Reply Quote Mike_Presta Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 4:38pm
	The best cases for “regionalization” would be if, for example, all cities, villages, townships, etc., in a region would standardize their street paving, sub-base, sewer specifications. They then could all do away with their street and utility departments and use outside contractors for all of this type of work.
	“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012

acclaro Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878	Post Options Post Reply Quote acclaro Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 4:33pm
	TonyB, I have attempted to get this thread focused upon hw Middletown could save money, and the point Josh Laubach made regarding his view a city focuses upon cost containment and efficient operations in Middletown, when I indicated in water services, a few others, it is an actual profit center, it makes money (although it retains its non profit tax exempt status. I am afraid I agree with Bill; I have completely lost your analogy on waste and commodity. A commodity can be any number of things, an item for stock purchase, a description of an item that has no brand identity and perecived differentiation; ergo, a roll of toilet paper, a paer towel, a piece of paper. So, I am completely lost by your analogy on commodity associated with garbage. My point anything that a public sector services is a commodity, because it is not perceived as a brand. We don't pay outside the police service, for private forces to guard us do we? Of cousre not, it is a service provided, a commodity, that we view our police department no different than any other in the state---its a commodity. You are losing me again on the profit argument. On the contrary, there is economic value to recycling garbage and waste. I have every night before trash, truckloads sorting through my throaways for metal that can be sold, or other metal products. You are missing the point, and respectfuly, don't seem to know how outsouricng works in either the private or public sector. It doesn't cost the private secvtor MORE to outsource a function, and usually, the costs are less. Service Level Agreements are put in place, and bonuses made by exceeding the baseline performance of the current staff before outsourcing. They also implement shared risk, where the outsourcer may even loose momney, based upon performance or non improvement. So, there are shared risk financial models, joint ventures, and many creative partnerships where best practices are implemented, which benefit BOTH the company or munibipality, and also the company providing the service. I guarantee in Middletown, across the board where this could be done, we'll leave fire 9other than volunteer augmentation) and police out of the debate. The same holds yrue with creation of competition between the public sector school system and giving the tax payer the choice to use it for private education, such as parochial. The parochial schools blow the public schools away in performance at .25% of the cost. Of course, the school unions hate this, but the above illustrates how costs could be reduced, performance improved, and motivation affects performance. By the way, corn is a COMMODITY that is going through the roof, too much ethanol, too much demand globally, adding to a monthly average of 4% of GDP ergo inflation. You lost me quickly TonyB. No disrepsect, but this is what happens with some of our council members running for office. They start well, and then just totally lose the concept they are attempting to get across to the voter. I can handle Rumke picking up my trash, I could handle Accenture or KPMG outsouicng every function performed by Middletown employees starting Monday morning at 8 am,

Mike_Presta Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483	Post Options Post Reply Quote Mike_Presta Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 4:26pm
	I don’t have the time to jump into this fray with both feet right now, but let me make one key point using garbage as an example. Please recall the economy of scale!!! A city collects and disposes of garbage only for that one city. Firms such as Rumpke or Waste Management collect and dispose of garbage for several cities in an area, thereby allowing more optimal usage of all equipment and manpower (and other resources). This allows the same, or even better, services to be provided at a lower unit cost even while making a profit. Similar situation with bussing, etc. That is why street maintenance can be done cheaper, yet better, by private contractors than city employees, yet City of Middletown is getting back into street maintainance, where they have failed in the past.
	“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012

VietVet Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008	Post Options Post Reply Quote VietVet Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 3:09pm
	TonyB...."The pick-up of garbage was a government function for many years because there was no value to garbage"....... The city got rid of the task of garbage pick-up by city workers because of the cost. The city was paying for the garbage trucks, gas and the maintenance of an aging fleet, the driver's salary/bennies, the salaries/bennies of the guys that rode on both sides of the truck actually carrying the cans to the truck and back to the curb. (They went to one guy on the back of the truck doing both sides of the road for cost savings, then the driver only ala Rumpke of today before contracting it out to Rumpke and disposing of the trucks altogether. The city also had the cost to maintain the city dump located where LaRosas, White Castle, Odd Lots and the former Damons/ Schiavone's "Junction" restaurant stands today. "My contention is, and will remain, that if a private company can provide the service for less and make a profit, a government should (assuption) be able to provide that service for less BECAUSE there is no profit motive involved". IMO, it is not necessarily so that the government can do it cheaper. The cost to provide that service may be higher because of salaries, layers of beauracracy, in-efficiency of operation and other issues related to cheaper operation. Private industry wants to do it faster, cheaper and more efficient because if they don't, it cuts into the profit margin. Public entities don't operate with the profit motive and their urgency to get it done isn't as great. JMO

Bill Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List MUSA Citizen Joined: Nov 04 2009 Status: Offline Points: 710	Post Options Post Reply Quote Bill Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: Apr 08 2011 at 3:07pm
	Tony, not sure what point you are making...but I'm afraid it's a bizarre one. So to compare apples to apples, you're saying a well-run private company that handles..let's say trash pickup...that is profitable and has talented, educated leadership making anywhere from $200k-300k annually does not have a competitive advantage over a municipality with a middling department head (who probably used to work in an altogther different department of the city) making $80k ? That the performance and efficiency of these two groups should be the same? Profit is the ultimate ignitor -- the firestarter that gets the juices flowing and the minds churning. Its is what spurs the hiring of smarter people and people who don't mind cutting the fat. It makes people work faster, quicker, and makes management get rid of the dead weight. I don't think that same motivation and drive would be found in any municipality.