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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote over the hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 11 2013 at 1:08pm
As I understand it, The hud funds are suppose to be used in the "areas of greatest need" which would be in the low income areas, Well, Doug Adkins and Judy decided to have Middletown declared 54% proverty level so they could use the funds in any area they choose. They decided to take advantage of the article stating "Middletown, One of the fastest dying cities" to cover their plan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote processor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 11 2013 at 1:31pm
In my opinion Middletown's failure is a result of many different forces.  Squeemy points out one huge drivers.  Middletown's businesses used to be locally owned and operated.  Over time these were sold and became facilities within larger organizations.  This resulted in the management staff being significantly reduced.  As these people left town looking for opportunities the professionals who supported them, lawyers, accountants, etc also drifted off.  I think that this was just a changing of the times and was no one in particulars fault but it did significantly reduced the talent in town.  To witness this just look at many of Middletown's seniors.  Many are world class in intellect, drive and achievement.  Then look at the 30 - 50 year olds.  There are still some high achievers, but not nearly as many as before.  Then look at the 20 - 30 year olds.  Certainly some high achievers, but an even smaller proportion of their age cohort.
 
The city councils/administrators of the 1980's - 2000's certainly let us down with their lack of understanding of the underlying forces and appropriate counter measures.  I think they were trying to hold on to what they had versus looking for appropriate replacements.  For example they tried to hang on to the downtown retail by doing a "me too" and putting a roof over the place.  All this did was postpone the inevitable and make things worse.  They looked to keep the housing stock full and started us down this road of HUD money and Section 8.  They sold our "soul" to an unthinking unyielding bureaucracy instead of tending to city basics...low crime, good streets and other infrastructure, good fire protection, and low taxes.
 
Now we're in a huge mess with no easy way out.  I think that about the only path out is to significantly reduce the poverty in Middletown by reducing, preferably eliminating, section 8.  Then we'll need to tear down all housing stock, old factories, etc that are not being used.  City council needs to forget all of their HUD type projects and work exclusively on basic city functions; infrastructure, crime reduction, beautification and economic development.  We need to set the conditions that companies find attractive and then sell, sell, sell the city to them.  Ideally they would find some real business people to do the economic development NOT government officials who really don't understand and can't get in to see the right people in the right organizations.  If I was looking to expand my business in SW Ohio Middletown would not be on my short list because of the poverty, high crime, high taxes, etc.  West Chester, Mason, even Fairfield would be on my list.  Only once this was fixed, would Middletown be on my list for consideration.
 
I feel bad for the low income people who would be displaced, but the boat is sinking and will drown everybody if not righted soon.  No boat; no one can be helped.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stanky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 11 2013 at 1:44pm
What gets me is HUD's boo hoo claim that the city has not properly considered the impact of reducing vouchers on the recipients. If I was getting a voucher, is it too much to ask that I may have to move somewhere else in order to continue my free lunch? The reality is most of these people would be able to move somewhere within 30 miles. This is a symptom of a larger problem, both in goverment and the population -- the ever expanding idea of "rights". I have a right to my free rent, I have a right to never move for that free rent, and on and on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 11 2013 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by processor processor wrote:



In my opinion Middletown's failure is a result of many different forces.  Squeemy points out one huge drivers.  Middletown's businesses used to be locally owned and operated.  Over time these were sold and became facilities within larger organizations.  This resulted in the management staff being significantly reduced.  As these people left town looking for opportunities the professionals who supported them, lawyers, accountants, etc also drifted off.  I think that this was just a changing of the times and was no one in particulars fault but it did significantly reduced the talent in town.  To witness this just look at many of Middletown's seniors.  Many are world class in intellect, drive and achievement.  Then look at the 30 - 50 year olds.  There are still some high achievers, but not nearly as many as before.  Then look at the 20 - 30 year olds.  Certainly some high achievers, but an even smaller proportion of their age cohort.
 
The city councils/administrators of the 1980's - 2000's certainly let us down with their lack of understanding of the underlying forces and appropriate counter measures.  I think they were trying to hold on to what they had versus looking for appropriate replacements.  For example they tried to hang on to the downtown retail by doing a "me too" and putting a roof over the place.  All this did was postpone the inevitable and make things worse.  They looked to keep the housing stock full and started us down this road of HUD money and Section 8.  They sold our "soul" to an unthinking unyielding bureaucracy instead of tending to city basics...low crime, good streets and other infrastructure, good fire protection, and low taxes.
 
Now we're in a huge mess with no easy way out.  I think that about the only path out is to significantly reduce the poverty in Middletown by reducing, preferably eliminating, section 8.  Then we'll need to tear down all housing stock, old factories, etc that are not being used.  City council needs to forget all of their HUD type projects and work exclusively on basic city functions; infrastructure, crime reduction, beautification and economic development.  We need to set the conditions that companies find attractive and then sell, sell, sell the city to them.  Ideally they would find some real business people to do the economic development NOT government officials who really don't understand and can't get in to see the right people in the right organizations.  If I was looking to expand my business in SW Ohio Middletown would not be on my short list because of the poverty, high crime, high taxes, etc.  West Chester, Mason, even Fairfield would be on my list.  Only once this was fixed, would Middletown be on my list for consideration.
 
I feel bad for the low income people who would be displaced, but the boat is sinking and will drown everybody if not righted soon.  No boat; no one can be helped.


EXCELLENT!!!! BINGO! NOW, BEFORE THIS GETS ERASED SOMEHOW.....SOMEONE MAKE A COPY OF THIS. EXPAND IT TO BILLBOARD SIZE AND PLACE IT IN FRONT OF COUNCIL SO THAT THEY MAY READ IT PERIODICALLY TO REMAIN FOCUSED WHILE GILLELAND, LANDEN AND THE OTHERS TRY THEIR BEST TO DERAIL THIS MESSAGE. MIGHT TAKE A COPY AND TACK IT UP ON THE WALLS OF EVERY OFFICE IN THE CITY BUILDING SO THAT THEY STAY FOCUSED ON THE CORRECT THINGS ALSO. I WOULD ALSO SUGGEST THAT RIGHT AFTER THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE AND THE PRAYER, THAT COUNCIL READ THIS VERBATIM BEFORE EACH MEETING IS STARTED.

GOOD ASSESSEMENT PROCESSOR.
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 11 2013 at 2:18pm
STANKY:

"What gets me is HUD's boo hoo claim that the city has not properly considered the impact of reducing vouchers on the recipients"....

Personally, I don't care what the "impact of reducing vouchers does to the recipients" because we aren't suppose to have but half the number we have in the first place. The city is doing them a favor by offering the number of vouchers that they are as we are only suppose to be distributing around 700 rather than the 1400 offered now. HUD knows good and well that we are only suppose to have around 700 for a city the size of Middletown. They have found a sucker (Middletown) to take all the vouchers not wanted by reputable cities and will do anything to force this city to hold on to them. Makes it easy for HUD to dump them in one place rather than to have to scatter them all around Butler County.

And, put a time limit on those so-called "rights" too. Then, ready or not, you're on your own, paying your own way like the rest of us have to do. Handouts should never be "forever". JMO
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2013 at 12:20pm
Gentlemen
I hope the following information will help you better understand the poverty levels in
Middletown. Please remember that over the past five years these numbers have increased.


From City of Middletown Section 8 Analysis
June 2010
Page 12

POVERTY LEVELS 2006 - 2008

% Families Below Poverty Level
Middletown 13.5 %
Ohio 9.7%
U.S. 9.6%

% Individuals Below Poverty Levels
Middletown 19.0%
Ohio 13.2%
U.S. 13.2

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2013 at 12:39pm

Gentlemen
    You seemed to be blaming Section 8 landlords and tenants for all the crime and poverty problems that have occurred in Middletown while you never seem to discuss the other subsidized housing units located in Middletown.
    If all these other subsidized housing units were available in Middletown in 2000 then why did City Hall requested 900 more Section 8 Vouchers over the next four year period?       

From City of Middletown Section 8 Analysis
June 2010
Page 25

CURRENT SUBSIDIZED HOUSING IN MIDDLETOWN, OHIO

MPHA Housing Choice Vouchers…………1662
BMHA Units in Middletown………………..593
Low Income Tax Credit Housing…………...604
Privately Owned Section 202/811…………..574
Assisted Housing Doty Trans.Living………...66
Hope House…………………………………..50
TOTAL UNITS……………..……………3,549

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Perplexed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2013 at 12:40pm
Say what you will about the negative impact of the Section 8 program.  What most of you continue to ignore is the waste of HUD funds (CDBG, NSP, HOME, Stimulus) and misguided planning of the occupants of the fourth floor of the municipal building.  Consider the opportunities foregone by Judy, Doug and company.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Perplexed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2013 at 12:44pm
Vivian -
 
Thank you again for providing MUSA with relevant documentation.  There's nothing more important than hard evidence that fully back up your assertions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote processor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2013 at 3:33pm
Vivian,
Isn't your post circular logic?  The poverty numbers increased in Middletown because the section 8 vouchers increased.  As more of them are filled the poverty will go up again and there will be need for more vouchers and on and on and on.
 
Regarding council requesting more vouchers..who here is satisfied with the logic, or lack there of, that council uses?  My guess is that we can continue to increase the vouchers and increase the poverty until Middletown is one big subsidized housing project.  Then people can argue that the government needs to build more housing to take care of the poverty needs.  If we have a chance to turn Middletown around those in need must look somewhere else for their help.  A community can only support so much charity until it brings them down too.  Middletown is well beyond the limit.
 
Perplexed...I totally agree that the city has wasted HUD money and has sold the citizens out with the "price" to receive HUD money. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2013 at 4:19pm
All are missing what is occurring in Middletown. It is a stated GOAL within the Master Plan, which is poorly done, it is the goal-state within Middletown, to be about 28,000 in totality. The city, in time, will reach that goal, but its premise is false.

Larry Mulligan made a pronouncement years ago, if you did not want to be part of the solution, just get out of Middletown. By that, he meant, "cheerleader." The vision is there will be a haven of public paid employees at MUM, C State, the city, elsewhere, to sustain Middletown.

The circular logic to that vision is in the interim, as more get out, fewer move in, this adding additional glut to housing stock. That is where the Section 8 battle line in the sand is drawn. With the loss of influx of residents in, more housing stock sits. To fill the void, as the higher base of professional employees has no interest in living in Middletown, Section 8 is used. It is needed to fill the excess capacity of inventory. The circular logic is not Section 8 is the problem, the circular logic is the city wants to reduct population, to get down to a baseline of income it deems acceptable, with mostly Middletown residents working in Middletown, while there is no influx coming in. This is precisely what has happened to the Middletown School District. It is not section 8 causing poor performance, it is the need to allow open enrollment for trouble makers, others, whom were booted out (at least many), from other districts. MCSD is safe haven.

The only reason the HUD battle was taken on is the Master Plan. The city wants to be a town of 28,000 or so; and will accomplish that inadvertently, as influx out is greater than influx in.

IMO, most are simply focused on the wrong issue of Section 8. Middletown is a city that has become what it is by its own manifestation. Too big of a geographic area to maintain, total disregard for its own core mission, too wide, and not deep enough, and left in the dust by other communities.

Section 8 was a solution for the city's excess housing stock and will be for decades. Economics drove the need for Section 8, not poverty driving Section 8. In turn, those with cash move out, those with limited cash driven in. Just as the school system has done, keading to "stuck on continuous improvement."

Why move to an area that cost you $8,000 to send kid to private school when public school has problems, and a poor reputation? You don't....you go to West Chester, Mason, Mariemont, Hyde Park, etc.        
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2013 at 6:43pm

I would like to share with you the faces of Section 8 tenants that have lived near me in the past 15 years

Young couple, husband works in retail sales, wife works part time for small company.
They have two children. Youngest daughter is deaf with other medical problems.

Divorced woman with three children, not working however she is going to collage to become a Social Worker, oldest daughter is blind with other medical conditions.

An unmarried young lady with a severely autistic son.  The last I heard she could not care for her son alone and had to move in with her parents.  

As you will notice all the above have children with expensive medical conditions.

This is the face of poverty in our country.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bocephus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 12 2013 at 7:38pm

Vivian I have no issues with any American that needs help getting it through tax payer funded Government programs, from what I have seen in the last few years there are lots of people that are cheating the hell out of the system and wouldn't work if they had a job handed to them. Too bad that the good ones get tainted by the bad ones maybe the answer would be if they had better checks and balances on their tenants.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2013 at 7:45am
Originally posted by Vivian Moon Vivian Moon wrote:

I would like to share with you the faces of Section 8 tenants that have lived near me in the past 15 years

Young couple, husband works in retail sales, wife works part time for small company.
They have two children. Youngest daughter is deaf with other medical problems.

Divorced woman with three children, not working however she is going to collage to become a Social Worker, oldest daughter is blind with other medical conditions.

An unmarried young lady with a severely autistic son.  The last I heard she could not care for her son alone and had to move in with her parents.  

As you will notice all the above have children with expensive medical conditions.

This is the face of poverty in our country.


 
Vivian , we can find those same faces in mugshots, This isn't about ppl ....It is only numbers......Thus, that is the problem with charity whether it be for animals or people, when they decide to pull the plug because the numbers don't work, then emotion enters the picture and chaos begins. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2013 at 8:08am
Originally posted by acclaro acclaro wrote:

All are missing what is occurring in Middletown. It is a stated GOAL within the Master Plan, which is poorly done, it is the goal-state within Middletown, to be about 28,000 in totality. The city, in time, will reach that goal, but its premise is false.

Larry Mulligan made a pronouncement years ago, if you did not want to be part of the solution, just get out of Middletown. By that, he meant, "cheerleader." The vision is there will be a haven of public paid employees at MUM, C State, the city, elsewhere, to sustain Middletown.

The circular logic to that vision is in the interim, as more get out, fewer move in, this adding additional glut to housing stock. That is where the Section 8 battle line in the sand is drawn. With the loss of influx of residents in, more housing stock sits. To fill the void, as the higher base of professional employees has no interest in living in Middletown, Section 8 is used. It is needed to fill the excess capacity of inventory. The circular logic is not Section 8 is the problem, the circular logic is the city wants to reduct population, to get down to a baseline of income it deems acceptable, with mostly Middletown residents working in Middletown, while there is no influx coming in. This is precisely what has happened to the Middletown School District. It is not section 8 causing poor performance, it is the need to allow open enrollment for trouble makers, others, whom were booted out (at least many), from other districts. MCSD is safe haven.

The only reason the HUD battle was taken on is the Master Plan. The city wants to be a town of 28,000 or so; and will accomplish that inadvertently, as influx out is greater than influx in.

IMO, most are simply focused on the wrong issue of Section 8. Middletown is a city that has become what it is by its own manifestation. Too big of a geographic area to maintain, total disregard for its own core mission, too wide, and not deep enough, and left in the dust by other communities.

Section 8 was a solution for the city's excess housing stock and will be for decades. Economics drove the need for Section 8, not poverty driving Section 8. In turn, those with cash move out, those with limited cash driven in. Just as the school system has done, keading to "stuck on continuous improvement."

Why move to an area that cost you $8,000 to send kid to private school when public school has problems, and a poor reputation? You don't....you go to West Chester, Mason, Mariemont, Hyde Park, etc.        
 
BottomLine ....Poor Management, no long term goal to address current  assets in place............Instead just assumed growth would provide funds. Growth stopped, money slowed...........Now the core has to be maintained , but no funds in place to support the core or assets.........Now they are trapped, it will take an aggressive player to get out of this mess..And many will not like it.
It will happen regardless if anyone makes decisions or not, No funds = No options.....They can sit and watch it happen or they can control the break....But it will happen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote over the hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2013 at 10:14am
hd: you are right," Desperate times call for desperate measures" Let's see who can rise to the occation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2013 at 1:23pm

HUD Response Letter to the City of Middletown 96 Page Report
Dated:
July 16, 2010
Pages 4-5

      The housing and neighborhood conditions identified in the City’s analysis are real. Blaming the voucher program for these conditions however, is, in the words of former HUD Secretary Dr. Robert C. Weaver referring to claims about the public housing program, “like blaming the doctor for the disease.” The City has several tools available to address its obsolete housing stock and concentration of poverty. A well administered housing choice voucher program in conjunction with a targeted Neighborhood Stabilization Program and Community Development Block Grant funding can certainly help revitalize neighborhoods and help the City meet its long term goals. The Department has many resources to assist the City in meeting its goals to work with City staff to develop and design programs that are consistent with HUD rules and regulations and in the best interest of the City.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2013 at 1:34pm

Gentlemen
Here is the link to our discussion on the Section 8 map and chart and the areas of greatest needs.
http://middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3223&KW=HUD



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2013 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by Vivian Moon Vivian Moon wrote:

HUD Response Letter to the City of Middletown 96 Page Report
Dated:
July 16, 2010
Pages 4-5

      The housing and neighborhood conditions identified in the City’s analysis are real. Blaming the voucher program for these conditions however, is, in the words of former HUD Secretary Dr. Robert C. Weaver referring to claims about the public housing program, “like blaming the doctor for the disease.” The City has several tools available to address its obsolete housing stock and concentration of poverty. A well administered housing choice voucher program in conjunction with a targeted Neighborhood Stabilization Program and Community Development Block Grant funding can certainly help revitalize neighborhoods and help the City meet its long term goals. The Department has many resources to assist the City in meeting its goals to work with City staff to develop and design programs that are consistent with HUD rules and regulations and in the best interest of the City.


 
So who is going to fund those programs and leave the city in control...........Once you accept those grants and monies, there are mandates which must be followed and not always funded by those grants or federal funds....
 
Dig deeper and read the fine print...................
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2013 at 1:52pm
HD
HUD funds all the above programs plus several others.
City Hall receives this money every year so maybe you need to dig a little deeper and find out where City Hall has spent all these funds…
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HdMechanical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2013 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by Vivian Moon Vivian Moon wrote:

HD
HUD funds all the above programs plus several others.
City Hall receives this money every year so maybe you need to dig a little deeper and find out where City Hall has spent all these funds…
HUD does not fund.. upkeep , maintaining windows, HVAC, R-values, ..There are many mandates that HUD places on a entity who receives HUD money.....HUD don't pay for snow removal, salt , trash , taxes and host of other items. Nor do they pay for the administering of services, this is a business ,the numbers do not work, you cut cost..
If this was  private entity like HD Housing LLC and the locale was using excessive resources of the city....You , others and the city would be on the phone, forum or wherever trying to shutdown the nuisance...
The city is policing itself and cutting costs on a for profit venture......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote over the hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2013 at 2:56pm
Isn't some of Mr. Adkins salary paid by HUD funds and is ALL of his secretary's salary paid by these funds? Just wondering.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2013 at 3:10pm

HD
I’m confused about what we are discussing??????
HUD does not fund.. upkeep , maintaining windows, HVAC, R-values, ..
Are we discussing the Section 8 program and the landlord obligations?
There are many mandates that HUD places on a entity who receives HUD money.....
Are we talking about the HUD Funds received by the city or rent received by landlords?
HUD don't pay for snow removal, salt , trash , taxes and host of other items.
HD these are the obligation of the landlord
Nor do they pay for the administering of services, this is a business ,the numbers do not work, you cut cost..
Are we talking about HUD funds paid to the City for the Section 8 Program?
The city receives about 1 million dollars a year and Nelson and Assoc received about 1 million dollars a year to administer the Section 8 Program

If this was  private entity like HD Housing LLC and the locale was using excessive resources of the city....You , others and the city would be on the phone, forum or wherever trying to shutdown the nuisance...

The city is policing itself and cutting costs on a for profit venture......
I do not understand the above statement.
However there is no proof that the HUD Section 8 Program is using excessive resources of the city

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Perplexed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2013 at 6:23pm
Is the city paying Nelson Associates as much (or even more) than was paid to CONSO???
How much is the city spending on staffing from the Section 8 administrative funds?  If so, whose salaries are subsidized???
 
Is it true that the city is spending a sizable percentage of all HUD grants for program administration plus program delivery???  This means salaries, fringe benefits, etc.
 
Help anyone???
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote over the hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2013 at 6:50pm
Isn't doug adkins salary partially paid through HUD money and his secretary's whole salary paid by HUD funds? If the program is turned over to Butler Co. then will the secretary lose her job and what about adkins salary? Will the city keep paying him the same amount for his job of Community Revitilation, It's not like he's done a whole lot of "revitalizing"that you can see. Unless it's the "green spaces" he created with all the tear downs.
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