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Saturday, April 27, 2024 |
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Red Light Camera's |
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Hermes 
Prominent MUSA Citizen 
Joined: May 19 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1637 |
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 Posted: Jul 20 2009 at 2:20pm |
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Spider,you have to realize Major Hoffman is a police officer & employed by the city. The question is if he had actual knowledge that red light cameras were a rip off would he tell anyone on here ? I seriously doubt it. Plus as a policeman and city employee he isn't going to open himself up to or the city for liable. I liked his answers but I believe they are text book.
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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Major Hoffman
MUSA Immigrant 
Joined: Jan 21 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Posted: Jul 20 2009 at 2:22pm |
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Mr. Kidd;
1. The citations are a public record. There are laws that govern the release of that information. "Sweeping it under the rug" would be a violation of those laws. In addition to checking our records I spoke with the Madison Township fire department. The have no knowledge of receiving a red light camera citation. You can check this yourself by calling them at 424-3384.
2. To the City's knowledge, all the yellow times are set to State standards. You have raised an issue over several that you believe do not conform to these standards. If you provide the specific locations I will have someone check. If you have specific questions about how long the yellow should be, or would rather deal directly with the traffic engineer, you can call her at 425-7932. Traffic safety is something that is taken seriously; the electronics staff cannot be everywhere. They rely on information from other city employees and the public to make them aware of possible malfunctions.
3. I received the information regarding the court costs from the Clerk of Courts, Civil Division. You can check this information by contacting her at 425-7817.
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Major Hoffman
MUSA Immigrant
Joined: Jan 21 2009 Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Posted: Jul 20 2009 at 2:38pm |
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Hermes;
If I felt this was a bad program I would work to have it fixed. Failing that, I would work to have it abolished. Failing that, I would distance myself from it and not respond to questions. I think this is truly is a violator funded safety program that is operated fairly and without bias. You are correct in your statement that I am a police officer, and as such my integrity is my coin of the realm. As any officer knows, once your credibility is questioned you may never regain it. I would not risk that for anything, much less for a red light camera program.
I am truly puzzled by those who defend people who wantonly run red lights and put other motorists at risk. Red light cameras are designed to change the behavior of drivers. The punishment is a fine. They are no more a revenue generating device than are DUI laws, domestic violence laws or any other ordinance designed to keep the citizens safe from those who would violate them and engage in behavior that endangers the rest of society.
p.s. to accuro - while out for lunch today I observed a van blow right through the red light on Breiel at Rosedale. Unfortunately I was in an unmarked car and could not get a cruiser there quick enough to stop them.
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arwendt
MUSA Official 
Joined: May 17 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 588 |
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Posted: Jul 20 2009 at 3:24pm |
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Just wanted to hop in and say thanks to Major Hoffman for taking the time to explain the program and answer all these questions. Good stuff and thanks again!
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“Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.” Benjamin Franklin - More at my Words of Freedom website.
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lrisner
MUSA Citizen 
Joined: May 26 2009 Status: Offline Points: 330 |
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Posted: Jul 20 2009 at 4:15pm |
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Now, Now. Do you think the City would have them if the COST the City more than they brought in? Absolutely Not! They ARE Revenue Devices. Now, if properly programed and administrated, they are acceptable Revenue devices. I have to be honest, when I hear the "talking points" that so many City Officials espouse about this, I really lose confidence in them. Mr Becker stated, when he was City Manager, that the Cameras were the result of an "Outcry" about Red Light runners. I have to say....I never believed him. If he will stretch the truth then, what else would he stretch the truth for. The City could prove me wrong by Donating ALL City portions of the Red Light Camera Revenue to the Community Foundation. Is there any chance of that? I don't think so! |
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Hermes
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 19 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1637 |
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Posted: Jul 20 2009 at 6:20pm |
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Major Hoffman,I would never intentionally question your character on or off the job. My only point,as I stated,is that you are an employee and a policeman,if someone told you to drop the case what alternative would you have ? I'm sure your a firm believer in red light cameras and do your best to keep the public safe. As I stated in this thread I was involved in a side impact collision several years ago by someone who ran a red light. The person was found guilty and ticketed. Had there been cameras perhaps that person would have thought twice before making the attempt.
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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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accuro
MUSA Resident 
Joined: May 31 2009 Status: Offline Points: 103 |
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Posted: Jul 20 2009 at 7:18pm |
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Major, thanks for the willingness to effect the proper adjustment on the intersection at Rosedale and Breiel. Indeed, both east and west sides have the same problem; unless 4-5 cars come up behind one another, neither side triggers the light to change. It would be an interesting challenge to test the constitutionality of the cameras being a civil matter, as they are not civil in Ohio they should be constitutionally in a municipality. It would seem if the argument is the cameras prevent accidents, then all cities and the state would mandate them. As for safety, I'm sure the vast majority of tragic accidents associated with one running a red light has nothing to do with attempts to actually run a red light, but a wandering mind, lack of focus, and then...someone is killed. The cameras don't trigger such an avoidance, they capture revenue. I've never been cited, but I believe unquestionably the usage is revenue or every state would have them installed as preventative, as well as the insurance lobbysists would be all for them. Thanks for the debate!
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An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out. - Will Rogers
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Hermes
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 19 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1637 |
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Posted: Jul 21 2009 at 3:48pm |
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Someone mentioned to me this morning while I was having coffee that since the red light cameras work so well why doesn't the city lay-off or fire a percentage of it's police officers since they are not needed and save the city money ?
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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council 
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 3:32am |
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Hermes:
I hope that you are kidding.
If anything, we need a GREATER police presence on the streets of Middletown. The last time I heard figures (this may be out-of-date) we had only eight or nine officers on patrol during the night shifts on weekends, and less at other times. I thought that more officers would be hired after the public safety tax increase passed, but I guess that $2 to $3 million per year got spent somewhere else.
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Black&White
Outsider 
Joined: Jul 21 2009 Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 11:47am |
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Just my opinion...
As far as I know, the police force has been understaffed for many years. And I’m not debating where the money goes from any tax increase – since taxes cover all areas of city issues (I’m just thankful we weren’t not in the same shape as Hamilton regarding taxes). My guess is that adding the cameras was to alleviate the handful of officers on each shift to focus more on heavy crime (which is more prevalent in Middletown than most care to recognize), rather than traffic control.
Who are we to complain? We seem to get caught up in the fact - it’s not our job to make our community a safer place - it’s the government, city officials, police and fire departments. Yet, we complain about every little thing they do in attempts to create the safer community. All the while, we deny the fact that we’re part of the problem! There aren’t enough officers to keep up with careless drivers and heavy crime. But do we care - it doesn’t appear that we do. We continue to drive more carelessly, daring an officer to pull us over before we run in to someone else. Everyone seems to have a mindset of - no one can tell me what to do - so no one cares to obey even the simplest of laws (i.e. don’t run red lights). So when the police department sees that Person A doesn’t care to save Person B’s life, by keeping themselves from running a red light and hitting Person B...and they see that they don’t have the manpower to keep up with all the A-type people...they decide to put in cameras. What a brilliant idea! Let the camera take care of careless people that need a picture to tell them what they did wrong! Now the officers can focus on people that know exactly what they’re doing wrong! I’d figure, if so many people are against the cameras, they would consider obeying the law so that cameras don’t take their picture. Eventually, no citations would be issued, the police department would be happy that streets are safer, and the cameras would be removed. Who are we to complain – really? Wouldn’t you rather be considered a wise man? It would be wise to obey the law, and encourage others to do the same. No one wants to end up in an accident as a result of carelessness. I’d rather officers wouldn’t waste time dealing with my inability to drive. How awful, to think that an officer would stop and write me a ticket at the same moment a bank was robbed. I don’t want to be responsible for the robber getting away with that! So yes...put up those cameras! I’d rather they were at every intersection! If I’m dumb enough to run a light and risk mine or someone else’s life, then I’m deserving of a citation that tells the story of my wrong doings with bright colorful pictures! Again, this is just my opinion... |
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There's no such thing as Gray.
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 12:42pm |
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An example of what can be done if the Citizens choose to come together:
Voters ban traffic-light cameras Cincinnatians - the first voters in the country to decide whether their municipality should be able to use cameras to catch drivers running red lights - favor a camera ban. Issue 7, which would prohibit the city from installing cameras, passed 51 percent to 49 percent. City Council in August rejected a proposal by the city manager to begin contract negotiations with a camera company. Mayor Mark Mallory had said he would veto the ordinance if it had passed. Still, Councilman Cecil Thomas, chairman of council's Law & Public Safety committee, said he would consider resurrecting the issue in his committee - with a safety emphasis this time rather than a budgetary one. The camera plan came up late last year when council approved the current budget, which included $1 million in planned revenue from camera tickets. Thomas said, however, that it only made sense to wait until after the election to see what voters think of the cameras before bringing the issue up again. Proponents of the measure, including NAACP President Christopher Smitherman and lawyer Chris Finney of the Coalition Opposed to Additional Spending and Taxes, said they wanted to push for the ban now so future councils could never put forth another camera proposal. They believe the cameras erode civil liberties, circumvent a driver's right to face his accuser and were put forth by city officials as a way to make money, not to improve safety. |
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VietVet
MUSA Council
Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 1:50pm |
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Mike- I was always under the impression that the last safety levy that passed was only to maintain the current force, not add officers. Don't think the money was spent elsewhere although, knowing the spending sprees this city is famous for, wouldn't surprise me that some of the levy money ended up elsewhere.
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lrisner
MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 26 2009 Status: Offline Points: 330 |
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Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 2:05pm |
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Double Post, sorry
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lrisner
MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 26 2009 Status: Offline Points: 330 |
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Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 2:07pm |
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Another rude and presumptuous opinion! |
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VietVet
MUSA Council
Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 2:12pm |
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Black and White- For me, the opposition for the cameras comes not from a safety aspect but rather, the old big brother- authority watching the private citizen without the "courtesy" of being present. Now, we are at a point where government isn't required to give you the courtesy of facing you, accusing you and fining you as they stick it to you. Too much authority from too great of distance for me. Some "government nose in our business" things like monitoring seat belt usage in one's own vehicle and keeping an eye on driving habits, for me, go way beyond the scope of governments role in people's lives. I obey the law as I have never received a ticket for running a red light or speeding in over 46 years of driving. Yet, I still think government ought to butt out of people's lives on things like this. Save the cameras for Pelican Bay and the other prisons/security needed areas. Leave the general public out of your "oversight " programs. Justice for the public would be the malfunctioning of the cameras, or perhaps, some obstructions for the camera lenses like they did out west. JMO
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Hermes
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 19 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1637 |
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Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 3:10pm |
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Mike,why would you hire more cops if cameras can do the job ? That makes no sense. If cameras can charge you with a crime there is no need for a cop. The cameras require no time off,no paid vacation,no union,no insurance,no gasoline,no nothing. The ultimate city employee.
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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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John Beagle
MUSA Official
Joined: Apr 23 2007 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1855 |
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Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 3:20pm |
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Two words describe what is wrong with your thinking Hermes...
Big Brother |
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Hermes
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: May 19 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 1637 |
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Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 6:41pm |
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John,my wife would call my way of thinking something else.
 I hate big brother too,but if you can't beat'em,join'em. If those cameras make money for the city they will never get rid of them. If a camera is on every street corner then we have no need for a police department. But we live in a police state anyway so I guess it is a mute point.
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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council
Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 7:51pm |
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We do NOT need more police to do "red light patrol", and I'm sorry if my post was not clear.
But red light cameras cannot solve the problems with drugs that we have here, nor can they reduce thefts or burglaries. Red light cameras cannot stop gangs of youths from roaming our neighborhoods and vandalizing properties, and worse. When one is in trouble and needs help quickly, it will do no good to "call a red light camera." Red light cameras might be able to take a picture of a robbery or mugging in progress in the middle of an intersection, but even if the perpetrator can be identified from the picture, it will be of small comfort to the victim to know that a ticket for a civil offense will be mailed to the rogue a month later
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Black&White
Outsider
Joined: Jul 21 2009 Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Posted: Jul 22 2009 at 11:24pm |
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Well said Mike!
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There's no such thing as Gray.
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accuro
MUSA Resident
Joined: May 31 2009 Status: Offline Points: 103 |
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Posted: Jul 23 2009 at 8:30am |
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Suggestion: as there are those are adamant that the citizens want the right to abolish wards to stack city council with Ward 3 individuals to cram whatever the city wants done without resistance, the petition for the fall should be added to have the abolishment of the red light cameras and put the dedicated funds for infrastructure back where they were in 1987, so they aren't used elsewhere. Does anyone know the city is spending more on asphalt on the bike trail than they have put on your roads for the past 3 years? Amazing.
I appreciate Major Hoffman taking his time to address and respond to the posts, but having a camera does not prevent an accident. Red lights are run regardless, and usually when one is not thinking of the light, day-dreaming, mind wandering. Cameras are there to bring in revenue period. |
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An ignorant person is one who doesn't know what you have just found out. - Will Rogers
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Posted: Jul 23 2009 at 9:54am |
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Wow--so many opinions, valid points and inconsistencies from every angle.
I found b&w's thinking to be very logical.
The cameras don't create a lot of revenue, and at this time do nothing but photo red light violators. If these cameras catch the most flagrant traffic offenders and eventually deter drivers from dangerously running through major intersections(while freeing increasingly scarce and valuable police manpower), I don't see how this wouldn't be a good thing.
Big Brother is always a concern, however he is here now and has been here since LONG b4 the introduction of red light cameras.
The local crime situation is spiraling.
The retail business community is being devastated by petty theft and vandalism.
Employed property owners are fearful of what will happen daily when they leave their residences for job time. Some neighborhoods see pilferage every day.
The police dept. seems to be re-focusing on proper co-operation and apprehension, however the court system has completely disintegrated to the revenue-grabbing scenerio that keeps being mentioned here. Judges suspend virtually all jail time now in lieu of fines and most importantly(to them) the ever increasing court costs. Pay your court cost while ignoring fines and sentencing restrictions seems to be ok with the courts and probation depts. The SAME individuals are terrorizing our community on a continual basis, with the knowledge that they will spend little to no time incarcerated, and paying off judicial judgements is not really an issue. Therefore outside of abusing police officers and paying court costs, there is very little protection and punitive concern. Victims' rights are currently non-existant, and were totally ignored during Mr.Adkins' run as city prosecutor. Proper mandatory notifications of pleas, setllements and court dates simply didn't happen.
YES--the over-abundance of Section 8 DOES contribute to this situation, however it is only one factor and shouldn't shoulder the entire blame.
Economic Development should be far more encompassing than patronizing AK, the Atrium and CBL /Towne Mall. Our local govt. is hardly in a position for the "partnership" mentioned by our new ED front man. His plan was honestly nothing new or inspiring. Actually it was no real plan at all--simply common sense options that shift a large % of the cost back to the city. Not possible at this time.
Business retention has been totally ignored.
Existing businesses are the lifeblood of our community, and attention to their needs/survival would be FAR less costly, preserve FAR more jobs and could lead to possible business expansion and increased employment at a much SMALLER cost with significantly less expense and effort than the also needed recruitment of NEW business(which is very costly due to the high % of new business failures,start-up costs and uncertainty about the resources/competence of the new business owners).
IMO our current ED department has everything backwards, and I just met with them YESTERDAY.
JMO==where am I off here?
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acclaro
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Posted: Jul 23 2009 at 3:34pm |
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sj- I agree entirely with the $60.00 grab for court costs. That's the money maker, while "negotiating" the other allegations as "dropped." The previous reason for the heavy docket for Judge Wall is so many fines issued for every conceiveable minor infraction, to salvage the $60.00. I also agree Section 8 is a minor problem, it is not the all encompassing plaque in Middletown but it is unconscionable Middletown has 60% of the entire county's numbers. Frankly, where are these recipients getting work---there are no jobs in Middletown, but MUM is an excellent source of an education even at the associate level to "better" oneself.
As for ED, its more people with less outcome. All baskets put in Neyer and the east end. Staggering to see the $5Mm given to the Atrium to buy them land and they have $50Mm to put into digitizing medical records. As for cameras, is the $5Kk on average monthly worth the "big brother" perception within Middletown for those looking to buy? Not in my opinion. Now add the additional cost < than $3.00 for the street lights, and Middletown continues the path to making it a community "everyone" wants to avoid. Middletown's ED hasn't been effective for 30 years or more.
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