Middletown Ohio


Find us on
 Google+ and Facebook


 

Home | Yearly News Archive | Advertisers | Blog | Contact Us
Saturday, June 25, 2022
FORUM CITY SCHOOLS COMMUNITY
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - May levy
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

May levy

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: Apr 20 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 7:02am
A got a good laugh at those of you who suggested using the historic Roosevelt Middle School building as a gathering spot for all of the "students" who need a little "extra motivation"!! 
 
Perhaps you've forgotten one important thing about the hallowed grounds of that historic structure, that would be restored to its original glory in a hearbeat for use as an "Olde Tyme" playhouse of some sort (if public funds were available to hire all of the local experts that would necessarily supervise the effort) under better economic circomstances.
 
It is now less than a stone's throw away from our fair city's newest "Historic District"!!!
 
Those folks would suddenly find that the entire structure is nothing but a dangerous eyesore, and probably themselves foot the bill for its immediate blasting to smithereens (and the grounds possibly napalmed, and then salted with toxic waste) before they would allow those sort of hooligans to be allowed so near THEIR neighborhood!!!  I mean, horrors!!!  The ruffians might even want to use THEIR streets "en masse" when they were let out of school to make their ways home.  We can't be having that,now, can we?
LOL LOL LOL
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
Back to Top
VietVet View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: May 15 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 7008
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 7:31am
Smartman, you state, "We cannot have the district lose 26% of their budget and expect great results". Likewise, we haven't seen great results when they have had their full budgets either, have we? If it is true, that we are spending more than $11,000 per student in this school district, and if it is true that that amount is one of the highest amounts in any surrounding district, and if it is true that Middletown isn't exactly the highest performing district around, the most logical conclusion to make is that money spent per pupil doesn't necessarily guarantee that kids will be educated properly. New schools don't necessarily guarantee a good education either or the school district would have been bragging about how the new elementary schools have drastically improved the performance of the elementary students. Haven't seen any articles comparing the performance of the elementary kids in the old elementary schools versus the newly built schools, have you? The idea of the highly publicized pre-bond approval "better education in a newer school" must not have materialized, right?
Back to Top
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: Apr 20 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3483
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 7:43am
I was insulted when Price declared that kids "can't learn in old buildings!"  However, I am reconsidering the issue.
 
I believe that Harvard has some of the oldest university buildings in the USA.  Have you noticed the performance of some of their graduates???  Yale is really old, too, and some of ttheir alums haven't seemed much better.
 Wink LOL LOL LOL
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
Back to Top
Pacman View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: Jun 02 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2612
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 9:17am
acclaro let me help you with your Math.
 
We will just use your 1700 Voucher Section 8 number.
 
Consoc's 2.5 persons per voucher
 
States 6500+/- Students in Middletown School system.
 
1700 x 2.5=4250 persons on Section 8
 
4250-1700 adults = 2550 students
 
That is roughly 40% of the Middletown student population.   Taking into account children under school age I think we can roughly say 35% of the children inMiddletown come from Section 8 families a far cry from your 15%.
 
But of course these numbers don't include the Public Housing and other reduced housing figures which bring it up to about 3600 housing units.
 
Lets see:
 
3600 x 2.5= 9000
 
9000-3600=5400 children
 
5400-1000 children under school age=4400
 
or 67% of the student population.  No matter how you slice it, it is a HELL lot more than your 15%.
Back to Top
Bill View Drop Down
MUSA Citizen
MUSA Citizen


Joined: Nov 04 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 710
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 9:41am
This is one of the tougher issues for me to see a clear solution.  While I understand all the arguments about the MCSD poor performance and lack of discipline, I also think it is unrealistic to think that Middletown will ever be able to greatly increase their performance.  Maybe some gains can be made but not a huge movement upward.  So I agree with Ms. Andrews' "excuses" about the students they are dealing with.  But that does not mean that they should shy away from more daring approaches or
take further tough love measures with both the students and  the teachers' union.
 
MCSD is an elderly patient with significant health problems.  The upcoming levy is like continuing CPR to keep the patient alive.  Yes, the doctor needs to look for alternatives to stabilize and improve the patient, but to withdraw CPR at this point is counterproductive.
Back to Top
VietVet View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: May 15 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 7008
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 10:05am
Bill- OK, question for all of the levy supporters. If we approve this levy and give the schools another injection of operating money, how long do we wait to see any improvement that would be deemed "measureable"? We have given the school folks what they have asked for in the past 20+ years and have seen no appreciable increase in performance. How long would the "positive thinking pro-levy folks wait before realizing that it may be a futile effort on the taxpayer's part to continually finance the current way of educating the kids in town? Shouldn't we reach a point of forcing the issue and telling the school people, change the way you're doing things because you have not produced results or we will cut you off at the money tap and we'll let the state take over? OR....do we keep going on for months and years, as we have been, watching and talking about the same dismal results and hearing the same reasons (excuses?) on a repetitive basis? When is enough.....enough and when does the accountability start?

How long does one stay with a stock that is continually losing money before they tell their portfolio manager to dump it? OR, how many times does one put down money on a horse at Lebanon Raceway and see the horse lose, before they quit betting on that horse?
Back to Top
spiderjohn View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: Jul 01 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2747
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 10:05am
Yer pal and fellow revolutionary, spiderjohn(me!), has been recruited by the school levy committee.
I have agreed to participate, and attended my first meeting last night.
Despite my "Starve the Beast" philosophy, I am excepting this levy from my blanket "Vote NO" intentions.
It is basically a never-ending renewal of the last emergency levys, and accounts for 26% of the system funding. Obviously this monetary loss would cripple any school system. I simply do not want to go through the threats and cuts that were held over everyones' head during the last vote. We don't need that stress or division, though if that is the public choice--so be it.
 
The error on the millage was straight from the auditor's office, and caught by the local treasurer. The responsiblily for this lies ompletely with the county, and is being revised. There is also discussion on whether a levy approval could actually raise your $$ commitment IGF/when property values are revised upward. An accurate clarification will be up-coming. The "Will not raise your tax/$$ commitment" may have to be eliminated--maybe not. My understanding was that passage COULD eventually call for an increased $$ commitment.
 
Believe me--I see Council/Admin/ED as a much larger threat to our community(particularly the citizens), and remain 100% committed to starving the city into conciliation.  
As stated--the city has no real reason to be involved in this land transaction, or providing $$$$ for it AND moving expenses. This should be a completely private matter. If the city wants to create a separate deal to acquire the Vail property, then bring it through the proper channels.
 
So--flame me for siding with the school levy group if you choose.
Fair enough.
Back to Top
Marianne View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Avatar

Joined: Jul 13 2008
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 165
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marianne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 10:20am
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Bill- OK, question for all of the levy supporters. If we approve this levy and give the schools another injection of operating money, how long do we wait to see any improvement that would be deemed "measureable"? We have given the school folks what they have asked for in the past 20+ years and have seen no appreciable increase in performance. How long would the "positive thinking pro-levy folks wait before realizing that it may be a futile effort on the taxpayer's part to continually finance the current way of educating the kids in town? Shouldn't we reach a point of forcing the issue and telling the school people, change the way you're doing things because you have not produced results or we will cut you off at the money tap and we'll let the state take over? OR....do we keep going on for months and years, as we have been, watching and talking about the same dismal results and hearing the same reasons (excuses?) on a repetitive basis? When is enough.....enough and when does the accountability start?

How long does one stay with a stock that is continually losing money before they tell their portfolio manager to dump it? OR, how many times does one put down money on a horse at Lebanon Raceway and see the horse lose, before they quit betting on that horse?


Vet, just curious: if the levy fails and the school district must make cuts to programs, staff, etc., and the performance of the district gets worse, then what???

I don't see how cutting school funding will enhance MCSD's performance in any way. I think you're guaranteeing that performance will suffer.
Back to Top
VietVet View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: May 15 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 7008
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 10:29am
Way to go Spider. So now you're on THEIR side now, huh?
Back to Top
acclaro View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: Jul 01 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1878
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 10:32am
Pacman, let me respeond to you. I realize of course, and won't disagree, Middletown has ruined the city by the explosion of Section 8. The % is too high, I know that, the city knows that, you know that. Now to the math. 2.5 persons per voucher could correlate and I assume does, 2 adults, non school participants, and .5 student. Hence, 1700/ .5 is 850. That's about 15% of the school population.
 
That point is moot from my perspective. I simply believe there are students regardless of economic condition, who can learn, have a desire to learn, and will learn when motivated. You seem to want to pin all of the problems on Middletown on Section 8. I agree it is too high, but it is just one of many factors associated with Middletown's decline. My point is, where is the cut-off for blaming families and incomes associated poor performance? Is it < than $200,000., < $150,000., < than $80,000? Its not ethically right nor accurate, to blame a whole system's performance on Section 8. And with 8, the problem began with city council allowing the huge numbers to begin.
 
The school district is not Oakwood, I get it Pacman. Oakwood has a different demographic. But what about Franklin- do you think Franklin has a medium income above $100,000? Their students perform. This debate keeps falling on excuse after excuse, and I comprehend you don't like Section 8 and the high numbers. I don't disagree with you, but I disagree that is the sole problem for Middletown's decline. In Oakwood, just as an example and minor solution, the students are paired with a mentor from Grade 9-12. Why could not MCSD have caring parents work with those less fortunate, inspire them, mentor them in the value of the education?
 
To VV---right on, new schools did not improve the schools, they did not bring in new students. The system needs solutions, instead of lazily making constant excuses. Deal with the hand given, and make them better. If its too much work, bring in teachers and adminitrators that can do "turn-arounds"- qualities I did not see in my opinion in the lone candidate left for the "replacement" position for Dr. Price.
 
To Mike Presta---right again. Add William and Mary to that list, and countless other colleges and universities across the country who have buildings that are 70-100 years of age, and are well taken care of. Lee's Chapel on the campus of Washington and Lee has been there since the early 1800's. I won't even mention the vault and the city's inability to repair it, so tearing down seems to be easier than restoring and taking care of. Of course, this was the Master Plan. New schools bring new students. Bike paths and dog parks bring new and hip residents. And build it, they wil come- aka- the bullet train on its way to downtown Middletown.
 
 
Back to Top
VietVet View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: May 15 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 7008
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 10:50am
Marianne-"and the performance of the district gets worse, then what?" We are already in the bottom tier or on the bottom as to performance. I don't understand this thinking as to the continued support of a poor performer. It is not logical. Question for you Marianne.....when you buy a car and it becomes a high mileage car with numerous maintenance issues and is no longer reliable, how long do you keep socking money into it before you pull the plug and get rid of it? Somewhere along the road, one must make a decision on whether their investment is worthwhile or not. It has reached that point for me. More than 10 years has gone by and can anyone honestly say that measureable progress has been made? Baby steps have been accomplished by this district but nothing appreciable. Surely, you are not suggesting that we go on in an endless manner with the same failed methods of the past, are you? Time to pull the plug on this patient, unless, of course, you want to try a competely different treatment for a cure. Then, it might be worth funding.

"I don't see how cutting school funding will enhance MCSD's performance in any way". Again, when the schools had the full compliment of funding, did you see a noticible, positive indication of "enhanced performance". No.... the performance has remained constant whether the district was fully funded or incured reduced funding. ie- Poor.

Performance has and will continue to suffer, not necessarily because of the money situation but rather because of the same repetitive failed methods of operation that have occured the last 20 years and the fact that the school authorities are stuck in their ways and won't try new changes to improve the system. At least the results have proven this to be the case.
Back to Top
acclaro View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: Jul 01 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1878
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 11:16am
spiderjohn, it is certainly your right to vote how you please, but its dishearteing to see how easy you change your position. You have been one of the strongest critics of the public sector, the extremity of overhead, waste, lack of accountability, and unwillingness to negotiate. You made no argument as to why you support the levey other than you were asked. I'm sure Ms. Andrews is a very nice, engaging person, but to flip your position has been a pretty consistent stance. Maybe the city manager will have you down for coffee and you'll tell us how great the city is ruin.
 
My point is only this: you have a right to vote, to join whatever group you want, but to fold on principles espoused to me, makes one have no credibility. I appreciate you have a business and have been in Middletown many years associated with it. But, you surely flip on a position, so its difficult to know if you really hold a position on anything. Your position is your position, and you are entitled to it. But to consistently state the unions are killing everything and not look at the school district as a union, is staggering in my opinion. The district is filled with overhead. Its the equivalent of the Postal Service, going bankrupt, but instead of holding indivdiuls accountable, its always, keep the status quo.
 
Its this mindset that has ruined Middletown.    
Back to Top
Bill View Drop Down
MUSA Citizen
MUSA Citizen


Joined: Nov 04 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 710
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 11:20am

Vet, this gets back to my point about the anti-tax position.  Your position sets up a scenario where it's heads you win, tails I lose.  If the schools improve then you say they don't need funding.  If they struggle then you withhold funding as punishment.  I believe that we are talking about a district and a population of students who will not realistically become a top-tier district.  Find me a top district with our demographics -- they are few and far between.  I think that while we are not a top district, there is learning going on in MCSD, there is some value to what these kids are learning, even if they generally are not Harvard bound.  I think a community should provide a base level of funding for their schools, nothing extravagant, as long as the schools are educating the vast majority of kids.  Insisting that Midd. students don't deserve funding because they aren't top of the line and most aren't college bound seems to me to be quite a high bar to set to meet your demands.  I don't believe, in general, our teachers and staff are any less qualified, dedicated, and competent than those in Lakota, Springboro, etc.  But they're working with students who already have one hand tied behind their back. 

I think the schools, absent fraud and utter incompetence, deserve some support.  In an analogy many on this site probably relate to regarding health care, you don't pull the plug on grandma just because she is not as young and productive as she once was!
Back to Top
VietVet View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: May 15 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 7008
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 12:13pm
Bill- if money (levy) is the topic here and better education results are tied to the spending of that money per student, how do you explain why Middletown is spending over $11,000 per student and producing what we see now and the Little Miami (or New Miami ????) ....the poorer of the two districts, spends considerably less per student and has a decent success rate? Could it be that the money spent is not as crucial as the techniques used to get the educational message through? And, if we give this some thought, could we ask the question why the Middletown school officials haven't tried more drastic methods to replace what has been proven not to work?

You say in your statement, "if they struggle then you withhold funding as punishment". There's the difference in the way we are looking at this. You think I'm "punishing" the schools for poor performance. I look at it as holding them accountable for something other than lackluster results at best. I want them to change the way they operate to find a solution to improve performance, not just keep operating as "business as usual". And, to keep trying until they reach a point where we can honestly say that we are convinced they are making a difference in a progressive way.

Find a way to untie the students hand if you know that that is the problem. Put steps in place to aid the student learn. Adapt, overcome, find a way to combat the one hand tied behind the back syndrome. You're intelligent people.

When do we reach the point when we realize that grandma isn't going to improve and make a final decision on her future? Anybody?
Back to Top
spiderjohn View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: Jul 01 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2747
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 12:33pm
My "type of mindset" has ruined Middletown?
lol acclaro
I
I really can't find any up-side to rejecting this school levy.
26% loss of funding pretty much cripples the school system, and I am weary of the program cuts, extra-curricular losses, pay-to-play and all of the dissension/division that comes with it.
In no way do I support the public benefit/retirement programs, and have NEVER changed my stance on that issue. I have posted warnings on that impending disaster for years. I still believe that we over-built the new schools. Haven't changed my thinking from day one.
Like Popeye--I yam what I yam, and am comfortable with my position.
Call me a flip-flopper, I see myself as flexible(a good thing).
I have hope that a new superintendant MIGHT make a positive difference, and I don't see a levy rejection leading to anything positive. It will only drive more talented students out of the system, dragging it down even more.
 
Vet--as always, I am on NO side.
Back to Top
Bobbie View Drop Down
MUSA Citizen
MUSA Citizen


Joined: Jun 05 2009
Location: Middletown
Status: Offline
Points: 288
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bobbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 12:48pm

Acclaro - you are assuming that 2.5 vouchers means that there are 2 adults and one child.  Alot of the cases they are 1 parent with multiple children.  Not to mention the school voucher is not just for individuals on section 8, it also include families of low income based on the number of children in there home.  I would assume that it is public record to know how many children are in the MCSD that receive the vouchers. 

Back to Top
acclaro View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: Jul 01 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1878
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 12:52pm
Bill, while I enjoy your debate, I disagree with your points and analogy. Of course, Middletown has good students, I have nephews and nieces among them who graduated near a 4.0 GPA who went on to top state schools and did very well. But your analogy is completely off the mark. You use life support for grandma because she's aged. I don't see the comparison with students, because you somehow are equating performance with economics. By the way, Obama's rationing on age and health will be exactly what will happen to grandma, so one could argue that should be so in the school district.
 
Lets use a real analogy. I am a shareholder in a company, and I buy stock and expect a return. I am a shareholder in the school system, and have a large % of my property tax go to the system. After years of the company not growing, not producing revenue, and losing marketshare, the company is on the verge of bankruptcy. So, the shareholders revolt, dump their stock, and take a loss, and occasionally, sue for neglect and incompetence.
 
Your point is the school needs money, just to stay afloat. Of course money is required, but the schol systems in the United States are failures, even the federal government makes such a statement. Middletown happens to be even worse than most in Ohio, we'd agree on that.
 
So, instead of bringing in a bankruptcy expert, its the continuation of the status quo, the "Middletown way", instead of the "Middletown Promise." If its a problem because the students don't care, then there need to be administrators whom have a different approach. How can you reinforce the value of an education when one doesn't appreciate it? Isn't that why they don't do well? Its not through money, although that has been tried.
 
What you, the school board, and others fail to realize is the current method for over 7 years just isn't working. You can blame it on discipline, poverty, section 8, whatever you wish, but its not improving. Money won't make it happen. There are two choices: 1) You haul away all those poor students who don't want to be in school, and then everything is just fine right? 2) You bring in leadership that has expertise in urban schools that have had turned around drop-out rates, inspire students, give them hope. These are pretty simple solutions, as well as the voucher system.
 
Sorry about grandma, but the true analogy is a company underperforming. We are shareholders and we want results. We recognize the problems, and poverty and other factors contribute. But, when the company fails, you either fold it up, restructure it, and bring in a team that can turn it around from proven results in districts that were under-achieving.
 
Of course, the other manner is to have Middletown bring in affluent people, raise the quality of life, and have motivated students in the schools making good grades. The problem is, the current problems in the school and perception of Middletown hinder that, so its on to the current population, having lost enormous value in their property because of enormous errors made in the city, to absorb the load.
 
For the lifers in Middletown, or those tied to the community through a law firm, a grocery, a physician's office, following the path that's easy is always the chosen path. As the CEO pf P&G recently said, real leaders are willing to make a hard turn right, than follow the easy turn left.             
Back to Top
Pacman View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: Jun 02 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2612
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pacman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 1:06pm
acclaro states "The school district is not Oakwood, I get it Pacman. Oakwood has a different demographic. But what about Franklin- do you think Franklin has a medium income above $100,000? Their students perform. This debate keeps falling on excuse after excuse, and I comprehend you don't like Section 8 and the high numbers. I don't disagree with you, but I disagree that is the sole problem for Middletown's decline. In Oakwood, just as an example and minor solution, the students are paired with a mentor from Grade 9-12. Why could not MCSD have caring parents work with those less fortunate, inspire them, mentor them in the value of the education?"
 
acclaro you are in denial for some reason.  No one has said that "economically disadvantage' kids are the sole problem in MCSD but you.  It is however a significant factor in the performance of the school system.
 
Franklin contains 36% of its students that are economically disadvantaged, Middletown 67% according to the 2008-2009 State of Ohio information.  That is almost 2 to 1.  Your continual denial that this is even a minor problem and one that needs to be dealt with just doesn't make any sense.
 
No it is not the only issue, no it won't be fixed overnight and no one has claimed it will be.  But ignoring it as you do sure doesn't help.
 
I don't recall anyone on this site claiming that Middletown should be a top rated school district, that is not going to happen, but I would expect it to move up, over time, to an average rated school district and not be constantly at the bottom.
 
The city ignores the socioeconomic mess they have created, many of the citizens turn a blind eye to the same mess and the MCSD sees the mess but is powerless to try and effect any change in it and Middletown muddles on to extinction eventually, waiting for the train to nowhere to come by.
Back to Top
VietVet View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council
Avatar

Joined: May 15 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 7008
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 1:06pm
Spider- excellent self assessment on your part. You sound like you are campaigning for an upcoming office with your neutral stance as to listening to both sides before forming an opinion. Fair enough as to neutrality. Still though, we have brought it to your attention that at times, you seem to "waffle".

You stated, "I really can't find any upside to rejecting this school levy". I can in a selfish way. My property taxes will be reduced and I will no longer be contributing my share to a district that I find as non-performing with no end in sight of any change. With this re-injection of money, are you convinced that anything will change or will it be business as usual? I'm picking the latter. I'll ask you, as a levy supporter (since no levy supporter has responded to the direct question- when is it time to pull the plug on the financial support for a historically poor performing system? Anyone? Why haven't the levy supporters asked the question of the school officials, as to when they think the schools will improve to the point when we can see some real positive news? Or, do the levy supporters just blindly go through the motions of voting for a known stagnant system and believe all the stuff the school people are shoveling? If so, how naive and how sad to see denial of the reality of the situation. Or, is approving the levy just the "civic thing to do" regardless of the known situation in certain circles? Accountablility to earn the taxpayer money means nothing then?
Back to Top
acclaro View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: Jul 01 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1878
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 1:20pm
Well, did I step on a nerve spider? Involvement? Kidding me right? I couldn't make one city council meeting a quarter, let along weekly. That doesn't mean I don't get involved or offered ideas---many, but this city is reactors not proactors. I appreciate you have your business in town and can attend meetings, I applaud you for that. Don't get bent out of shape---you vote is your vote, my vote is my vote, your opinion your opinion, my opinion my opinion.
 
You surely aren't doing my bidding sir. If an idea so rudimentary simple as reversing an ordinance that has allowed for 20 years, infrastructure funds to be used elsewhere can't be embraced by all those "change agents" you championed, Paradise Is Lost in Middletown. No one has brought that up, and yet the debate is why more affluent incoming individuals won't move to Middletown. I think having streets which are driveable might be a start wouldn't you agree?
 
As for the house, it would be like those on da Vinci, Manchester, or your area, which sat for 5 years and counting. Who's buying in Middletown spider? No one. Look around you, and the houses sitting. 
 
Sorry my point on your contradictions upset you- I'm not trying to change your position, vote anyway you want. I just pointed out your contradictions. Hmmm, I thought it was you who said this blog forum was a healthy start for initiating change, and the message was getting through. I obviously misunderstood you and you are correct, this benefit is solely cathartic to let off some steam as it surely provides no impact in altering Middletown's course of action.  Don't worry aout telling anyone it might make sense to change the ordinance back to where it was 20 years ago. Better to keep the streets in disrepair, so residents don't come to Middletown filling schools with better achievers so the system improves.     
 
 
Back to Top
Pat View Drop Down
Outsider
Outsider


Joined: Mar 12 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 8:31pm
acclaro-Get your facts straight!  If you want to discuss the pros and cons of the school levy you must educate yourself on the FACTS first!  Research shows that students that come from poverty stricken backgrounds do not learn the same as middle class or upper middle class kids.  Everyone, at least I assumed, was aware of that FACT.  And yes, it is a fact.  It is not an excuse Mrs. Andrew or anyone else is making up.  They are behind the 8 ball before they even enter kindergarten.  Look at MCSD "Crawl" (sp?) scores.  The kids are assessed before they enter kindergarten and are each given a score.  MCSD scores are terrible.  By far the worst in the county and I'm guessing some of the worst in the state.  Again, It is a fact that these kids take far more resources to learn ($$$) and have a much harder time learning.  MCSD is 70plus% free and reduced lunch, which means that 70plus% of the kids come from a poverty background.
 
Also, your argument about Franklin and the poverty rate.  You must be living in the past when Franklin was an "arm-pit".  If you would look at the FACTS Franklin's demographics do not even compare to Middletowns anymore.  Franklin is not "poor" as you state when compared to Middletown.  That was true in the past, but Franklin's demographics far exceed Middletown now.
 
Also, you do not like Mrs. Andrew comparing Middletown to Youngstown and the others that have demographics similar to M-town.  Well, you may not like it (none of us do) but it is a FACT M-town does compare with the cities she named, in fact M-town is on the bottom end of most any city in the state of Ohio.  I mean, how many other cities have the poverty rate we do and the amount of section 8?
 
You are not comparing apples to apples.  Educate yourself on the facts first, please.  What you are saying is not true.  And remember if the state takes over the school system they will assign a millage and tax rate to you and you don't get to vote on that!
Back to Top
Pat View Drop Down
Outsider
Outsider


Joined: Mar 12 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 8:49pm
PacMan-I agree wholeheartedly with your post (today at 1:06pm).  You are right on, especially on your last sentence in the post!!!  When are people going to wake up and realize it?
Back to Top
acclaro View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: Jul 01 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1878
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 9:27pm
Pat, I think you are using the poverty perception to give a push for the levy as a continued excuse for performance. Let me put what you have stated in perspective. With an acknowledgement Middletown is among the most poverty ridden cities in the state because of the illustrious city council allowing all those vouchers they didn't know about (the dog ate my homework), then we need to spend more money to educate the student...as its the fault of the student and the poor that have brought the school down. What a convenient excuse now for performance which has been a continuation for five years now. 
 
You miss the point. The point is---the school is laden with overhead, and because of the economic problems you stress, it makes leadership with experience in this area that much more important. The school system has too much overhead, and now with all this poverty, it will be an impossibility to rectify. In other words, youi are defeating your own argument. If the school performance is attributed to the poor, then why would anyone with higher demographics desire to move here? And without those demographics, the system continues to perform horribly. Raising taxes doesn't fix this problem---that is the point you are missing.
 
And that is the reason the houses in Middletown sit, and no one can get out. But you expect those stuck in this mess, to continue to pass these levies and tax increases for the city, when the city created the problems you are speaking, but yet not one school board member or others, are attacking city hall as to what a mss they have created. Instead, its keep the overhead in place, and have those left in the city who can't get out, to pass levy after levy because of the problems you describe on poverty. And we wonder why anyone is not buying a house? Go figure. 
Back to Top
Pat View Drop Down
Outsider
Outsider


Joined: Mar 12 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 10:56pm
Oh Boy Acclaro, where do we start?  First of all yes, it is the poverty stricken children that are, as you state "bringing the school system down".  It is not an "excuse", as you like to state, it is simply a fact. 
 
Secondly, the school district is not laden with "overhead" like you state.  What facts do you have for this?  The central office is down to bare-bones.  They just had a state audit on this and they are not top-heavy, in fact just the opposite is true.
 
Next, you state, "If the school performance is attributed to the poor, then why would anyone with higher demographics desire to move here?"...duh?  They don't desire to move here...you got that one right!  And guess who are they only people that can fix that?  Do you think that the school system can just turn down the poor kids?  No, of course not, they have to take anyone who enters their doors.  But, who can fix this???  One guess!
 
And I am not saying to "raise taxes" like you stated.  I am saying to keep the districts taxes the same by renewing the levy.  Remember, this is not new money.  If you go back and read my post it is a fact that poorer children require more resources ($$$) to educate them.
 
Finally, I'm not saying pass levys for the city.  We're talking school district here.  They are two very seperate entities and one does not rule the other.  And if you think this town has problems now, wait till a renewal for the schools doesn't pass- that would be the nail in the coffin. 
 
 
Back to Top
acclaro View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: Jul 01 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1878
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2010 at 11:31pm
Pat, the school system is down to the bones? Come on, lets be honest engines here. They have a communications Director, spent $250 kk on a wasteful attempt for a land grab, paid for an interim superintendant whom has been ill, paid for a retained search firm, and they are down to the bones? This is beginning to sound like an Obama spin cycle on healthcare reform.
 
And its going to get worse if it doesn't pass? Drive down Currier and look at the house sitting for nearly 5 years, or those by the hospital you can't give away, and it could be worse? What if AK is acquired, then its really bad.
 
I'm sorry, this levy should fail on it merits. Butler County is just as bad, its pathetic to see the joke of commissioners going on about an Assistant HR Manager, making $92, 500. The city has made no cuts. The school built new schools, and enrollment has not increased. Middletown is the worst appearing city in Ohio.
 
Money is not the solution on the levy. Improvement is, and bringing in a change agent that fits the demographics.    
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.
Copyright ©2022 MiddletownUSA.com    Privacy Statement  |   Terms of Use  |   Site by Xponex Media  |   Advertising Information