Middletown Ohio


Find us on
 Google+ and Facebook


 

Home | Yearly News Archive | Advertisers | Blog | Contact Us
Thursday, April 18, 2024
FORUM CITY SCHOOLS COMMUNITY
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Pioneer Cemetery
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Pioneer Cemetery

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Guests View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2010 at 11:21pm
The city is in violation of their own city ordinance 1210.
 
This ordinance requires them to maintain this historic structure, and bars them from demolishing it, even if that is the prudent financial decision.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 18 2010 at 11:36pm
The city could flip any ordinance in an emergency vote in one session. The Dispute Resolution Commission gives no consideration to a municipalities guidelines. What is the penalty for 1210? Civil or misdemenaor and fine?  ORC trumps any city ordinance.
Back to Top
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 10:13pm

Let me jump in here:

Up until October 7, 2010, under the old Ordinance 1210, the “COUNCIL ON LANDMARKS AND HISTORIC DISTRICTS” had a duty to enforce the standards and mandates of that Ordinance.

In part, the ordinance stated:

§ 1210.14 MINIMUM MAINTENANCE STANDARDS.

In order to accomplish the purposes of this chapter, areas, sites, structures, works of art or similar objects designated historic sites or located in an area designated an historic district must be preserved against decay and deterioration occasioned by neglect.

The former “COUNCIL ON LANDMARKS AND HISTORIC DISTRICTS” certainly appeared to be guilty of malfeasance, misfeasance, or nonfeasance of duty in regards to the vault at Pioneer Cemetery. Under the terms of this ordinance, the person responsible at the City of Middletown should have been liable for $750/day in fines and subject to 90 days imprisonment for each day that such conditions were allowed to remain, with each day being considered a separate violation.

However, due to City Councils actions in passing a NEW Ordinance 1210 on September 7, 2010, theCOUNCIL ON LANDMARKS AND HISTORIC DISTRICTS was abolished effective October 7, 2010, and a new “HISTORIC COMMISSION” was established, but no one has been appointed to serve on that commission up to and including this date Once established, the new “HISTORIC COMMISSION” will have many duties similar to the old council, unless challenged in the courts.

Since, by ordinance, this new “HISTORIC COMMISSION” must have a minimum of eight members, a minimum of FIVE members will constitute a quorum and must be present to conduct business. City Council appears ready to appoint TWO members at their next meeting this Tuesday, but TWO members will be able to do nothing but convene a meeting and then adjourn for lack of a quorum.

This also speaks to the illegitimacy of the “certificate of appropriateness” recently issued by a group of citizens acting as the abolished “COUNCIL ON LANDMARKS AND HISTORIC DISTRICTS” after the fact of their abolition.

I hope that this helps.

Back to Top
Mtown View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident


Joined: Sep 09 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 63
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mtown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 10:17pm
Mr. Presta
When did you get a law degree?
Back to Top
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 10:30pm
Just as a footnote to the above, much of the NEW Ordinance 1210 is "vaguely worded" (and that is putting it kindly).  We now know, from the last City Council meeting, that at least two city councilmen do not like vaguely worded ordinances.  Perhaps if they would actually take the time to read ordinance 1210, they will bring it back and repeal it.
Back to Top
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 10:33pm
Ms./Mr. Mtown:
Please quote anything that I have written wherein I state that I have a law degree, and cite the source.
Back to Top
Guest View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 5:11am
Originally posted by Mtown Mtown wrote:

Mr. Presta
When did you get a law degree?
He probably got it right after you got elected judge of local political correctness, Mtown.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 8:43am
1210 is written with great ambiquity, meaning it has many interretations of meaning. The fact the council pulled that confirms such. As it was never imposed, there is not precedent,so it could be challeneged on many fronts. How is historic site defined? Is it 1776, 1803, 1955, or 100 years old? Would a cemetrry be deemed by definition, a historic site?
 
What is the meaning by ordinance of "preserve." I washed down the building, and I therefore was preserving it. What paint must I use in preservation. The word "occasion" is completely misused. Occasion is used as "an opportunity", not a duty. I had the occasion to pour my self a cup of Earl Grey tea. I had the occasion to paint my pillars. but elected not to do so, as next year, the condition will be worseand the "occasion" is better to paint in better conditions.
 
This was a horrible ordinace, one easily challenged, which would have been overturned, and one which has limited supported in existing ORC. By its nature, one could argue the city of Middletown is historic by its founding date, and it is a site, as site is not defined, as a locale. And the city is in violation of the ordinance for lack of propermaintenance as the city has had on many occasions, the opportunity to make repair against decay and deteriation.
 
  
Back to Top
Vivian Moon View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council


Joined: May 16 2008
Location: Middletown, Ohi
Status: Offline
Points: 4187
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 9:28am

It is evident that the City doesn’t even know what is historic anymore.
If the
Middletown Cemetery
that was established in 1827 isn’t historic and need to be saved please tell me what is more historic that really needs to be saved…..oooo the historic Manchester Inn.  Wink
The entire historic situation in this town has turned into nothing but a bad joke.


Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 9:58am

Why would Cincinnati State want to pay more for leasing for "renovatins" when the renovations are really nothing more by ordinance, than "preservation" guidelines"? Would these guidelines have impacted The Manchester? is that why The Manchester was closing, associated with preservation costs?

Seems as if the city is getting befuddled that The Manchester might not stay open after 2010. Would think Cincinnati State would want the lease reduced for a non functioning historically significant restaurant. That lowers lease payments. Why would the city want to tear down a non functioning restaurant and hotel, if The Manchester closed, but wanted to take down a non functioning restaurant and hotel if Manchester closes?
 
Will it be more cost effective for other historic buildings and owners to tear them down, than maintain them based upon the ordinance in 1210?
 
Someone needs to go back to the drawing board. 
Back to Top
Devils Advocate View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Devils Advocate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 10:16am
An observation. Perry Thatcher made several million dollars. City of Middletown made tens of thousdands on taxation of PT's $ millions. City made no money off the poor souls resting in the cemetery once entombed in the vault awaiting burial. 1210 has a reference to "significance." On pertinent part it states, "those deemed to be of "significance" by the municipality herein, can appropriate funds accordingly in the manner of their choosing associated with the importance of specific structures, buildings, and assets."
 
No, it doesn't. But, they do. What would happen if te Manchester closed in 2010, when the city was striking the deal with State, and what would be the justification for saving The Manchester and it was nonfunctional, but not maintain the vault. Both have historic significance, both are closed. One is given hundred of thousands of dollars to save, but the other, well, those poor souls including the founders, never paid a dime to the current administration in taxation.
 
Wait, there it is, in a footnote. "Significance" has the following meaning:   
 
"To be determined by the municipality." 
Back to Top
Hermes View Drop Down
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Prominent MUSA Citizen
Avatar

Joined: May 19 2009
Location: Middletown
Status: Offline
Points: 1637
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 11:48am
What I don't understand is why isn't the historical society helping on the cemetery situation ?? (Or are they ?)
 
I always thought and have experienced that the historical society makes decisions and defends what is historical.
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
Back to Top
Devils Advocate View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Devils Advocate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 1:33pm
"historical" is within the eyes of the beholder, and the beholder's perspective on cash valuation. Its not the age, the taste, the tradition, the pride, nor honor. Its within the beholder's perception of how much money can be leveraged, and by whom. That is the definition of "historical".  It is like art. Each has its own "taste" and willingness to pay.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 3:23pm
Mike Presta. I stand corrected. Section 1210.01 under definitions is clearly being met by the cemetery vault, and about 50% of the definitions easily of (a)-(f). Next, has a Certificate of Appropriateness been submitted?
 
If not, suggestion to do so. The problem will be under 1210.04, as they stack who they want on the Board/ Commission, they will rely on 1210.01 (c) heavily, and the economic value of the landmark. No slapping on the wrist, although the city is not in compliance with its ordinance under 1210.01. Same to be applied to the canal, and its "historical" significance. What will $750.00 get you today, a cup of coffee?
 
 
Back to Top
David Boies View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Boies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 5:53pm
Guests, I believe you'll find your math is wrong. The city is juror and defendant associated with the historic vault, cemetery, and preservation. The ordinance was established in 1991. Its over $5,000,000. in fines. Would the city fine itself $5,000,000 for not following its own ordinance, I dunno. Just kidding, the $750. daily begins after the Board decides if the city that put its members on, is not complying with 1210 as written. 
Back to Top
Mtown View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mtown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 6:10pm
You bunch of goofs. The historic ordinance does not apply to the pioneer cemetery. The cemetery is NOT in an historic district.
Back to Top
Mike_Presta View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by Mtown Mtown wrote:

You bunch of goofs. The historic ordinance does not apply to the pioneer cemetery. The cemetery is NOT in an historic district.
Goofs???  I think not!!! Please try to find a friend who can read and comprehend to explain the following to you:
 

ORDINANCE NO.  O2005-150

 

AN ORDINANCE DESIGNATING MIDDLETOWN CEMETERY ON FIRST AVENUE AS AN HISTORIC SITE.

 

            WHEREAS, the City has adopted Chapter 1210 of the Codified Ordinances regarding the preservation of historic sites and areas within the City; and

 

            WHEREAS, the Council on Landmarks and Historic Districts has advised the Director of Planning of the proposed designation of Middletown Cemetery as a historic site; and

 

            WHEREAS, the Director of Planning has recommended that the proposed designation is consistent with the Master Plan of the City, has opined as to the effect of the proposed on the surrounding community and has recommended the proposed designation; and

 

            WHEREAS, City Council has, in its discretion, determined not to hold public hearings on the proposed designation and is satisfied that the property designation meets the criteria set forth in Section 1210.04 of the Codified Ordinances;

 

            NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT ORDAINED, by the City Council of the City of Middletown, Butler/Warren Counties, Ohio that:

                                                                    Section 1

 

The Middletown Cemetery, more particularly described in Exhibit “A”, attached hereto and made a part hereof, is hereby designated as an historic site in accordance with Section 1210.05 of the Codified Ordinances.

 

                                                                    Section 2

           

That this ordinance shall take effect and be in force from and after the earliest period allowed by law.

==============================
Please note:  By posting the above I in no way intend to represent myself as an attorney.  If you feel that you need legal advice just to READ, please seek same at your own expense (or, more likely for you, at taxpayer expense.)
 
Now, if you will excuse me, I must go study for, or at, the bar!!!
 
Back to Top
David Boies View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Boies Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 7:35pm
Mtown, you errored. "goof" on you. 1210.01 clearly defines the broad entities which can be considered "historical" and associated with the ordinance. The above confirms it. Exhibit A is either the boundries or the vault, but the vault would be within the boundries as defined above, and therefore, the city would have responsibilities for preservation.
 
Now, how do you get a fair hearing when the juror is also the defendant in violation of their own established ordinance?  Who should be recused?
 
Perplexing, but achieveable.   
 
Here's the ordinance for consumption- type 1210.01, and digest.
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 10:43pm
Correction needs to be made by an earlier guest post. The Certificate of Aprropriateness is needed only, by ordinance reading, for alterations to a designated historic site, artifact, art, property, or area. Unless the post was in reference to repairing and restoring the vault, as that would be a significant modification (LOL). Well, lets see how it goes in March.   
Back to Top
Mtown View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mtown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 11:13pm
Ahhh, I see a problem here. 1210.99, the continuation of a fine for $750.00 cannot continue after the initial $750.00 as it is prohibited by the 5th Amendment in the constitution. '[T]he Double Jeopardy Clause protects against three distinct abuses: [1] a second prosecution for the same offense after acquittal; [2] a second prosecution for the same offense after conviction; and [3] multiple punishments for the same offense.' U.S. v. Halper, 490 U.S. 435, 440 (1989).  The good news for the city? It is just a $750.00 fine for violation of their ordinance and an unconstitutional remedy.     
Back to Top
Vivian Moon View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council


Joined: May 16 2008
Location: Middletown, Ohi
Status: Offline
Points: 4187
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 11:24pm
Back to Top
Mtown View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mtown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 20 2010 at 11:43pm
Interesting exhibit. And what became of the funds and were they used to make the necessary repairs?
 
Appears to be several violations of the city's ordinance by the city themselves. Could an impartial city council (or body) outside of Middletown be seated to evaluate what appears to be a violation of the city's 1210 ordinance? Maybe an AG question. 
 
Should make for an interesting hearing in March with evidence the ordinance was written, the city apparently violated it, and the Kohler document makes reference to the city's obligation to maintain the cemetery with funding.    
Back to Top
Vivian Moon View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council


Joined: May 16 2008
Location: Middletown, Ohi
Status: Offline
Points: 4187
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 21 2010 at 1:04am

Over the last several years the Middletown Cemetery had become a community garden. The families and neighborhood people would come and visit with me, tell me about their family history, bring me a cup of coffee or a cold ice tea, help me pick up trash, and bring me starts of plants from their gardens.  They donated $2 or $5 from their small social security checks to help make the cemetery a beautiful place for their family to visit. Not one plant was purchased, planted or cared for by the city.
The destruction of the plants at the cemetery is the most vindictive act I have ever witnessed in my entire life.

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
MUSA Resident
MUSA Resident
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 21 2010 at 3:49am
Originally posted by Mtown Mtown wrote:

Ahhh, I see a problem here. 1210.99, the continuation of a fine for $750.00 cannot continue after the initial $750.00 as it is prohibited by the 5th Amendment in the constitution. '[T]he Double Jeopardy Clause protects against three distinct abuses: [1] a second prosecution for the same offense after acquittal; [2] a second prosecution for the same offense after conviction; and [3] multiple punishments for the same offense.' U.S. v. Halper, 490 U.S. 435, 440 (1989).  The good news for the city? It is just a $750.00 fine for violation of their ordinance and an unconstitutional remedy.     
Ms. or Mr. Mtown: When did you get your law degree?
Back to Top
Vivian Moon View Drop Down
MUSA Council
MUSA Council


Joined: May 16 2008
Location: Middletown, Ohi
Status: Offline
Points: 4187
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 21 2010 at 7:38am

I thought the new cemetery board was to have 5 members?

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.
Copyright ©2024 MiddletownUSA.com    Privacy Statement  |   Terms of Use  |   Site by Xponex Media  |   Advertising Information