Accountability of City employees
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: Economic Development
Forum Description: Local government efforts to develop the local Middletown area economy.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2182
Printed Date: Oct 02 2025 at 9:25pm
Topic: Accountability of City employees
Posted By: Paul Nagy
Subject: Accountability of City employees
Date Posted: Oct 24 2009 at 5:28am
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All of the serious issues confronting our city are confronted by City Council and city Staff in a way to avoid accountability for performance. It is time for that to end and we must demand accountability, transparency and integrity. It is extremely lacking in our city government. It is costly to the taxpayers and hinders the city's progress.
The budget proposal is shallow and artificial. We are in severe economic times. The attempt to keep everything running as usual is not justified. The proposed cuts attempt to keep the bureaucracy safely in place without any sincere commitment and sacrifice. We need to get down to providng essential services. We need to have a plan for street repair on an onging basis. Not the promised campaign rhetoric that next year we are going to put $4 million dollars in street repair. If that happens then what? Why hasn't it been done in previous years when we had more money? We need to catch up the street repair and then make certain that each year an amount (as Sonny Hiil proposed ) is provided for street paving. We need a precise plan for our sewer/water system, for public service and not just a 3% raise for police, fire and city staff but something more substantial that makes our city safer.
As the city shrinks the buracracy must shrink. I don't want to see any body lose a job in this community during this recession. However, there are lots of other things that can be done. Hours can be cut, a days work can be cut from staff, wages can be cut, bonuses can be cut. We can cut out money to the Vistors and Conventions bureau, the Historical Society, etc, and a bunch of other special projects like this that have negative effect on our finances during recessionary times. We must stop funding the many niceties and get our funding down to essential service, save some money and CREATE A PLAN to use it to expand the city when the turn-around comes in two to three years. Now we need to be funding only public safety, infrastructure and economic development not anything else. We need to stop our government from getting further and further into our personal lives. We don't need the petty regulations for our plastic swimming pools, garbage cans, the width of our driveways, parking on our lawns, citations for paint on our gutters, etc. and ad nauseum. These are diversions while money is being filtered in to pet porojects for the benefit of certain people. These are awaste of staff time and money. Those responsible must be held accountable and find work elsewhere.
It is difficult for people on the public payroll to understand frugality and sacrifice. They live off of the taxpayers money and don't know how hard it is when your income is stopped. Their's is always there as long as they can keep taxing the citizens. Very little real frugality has been show, No sacrifice has been made. Those who say that they are making a sacrifice by not getting their raise or bonus are spoiled by the extravagance of living in our great country. Real sacrifice can be measured by the price our men and women are paying in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan. Their families make the ultimate sacrifice.
Let us demand performance and accountability.
Paul Nagy
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Replies:
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Oct 24 2009 at 7:04am
| Paul I agree with much of what you say. A major problem with the City is the Strangle hold that the Public Safety Unions have on the city, under current Ohio law. In goods times this is usually not an issue but in the current economic climate, the 3-4% guaranteed raise is a problem, the benefits which are not in line with other public and private entities are also an issue and need to be addressed. If the Public Safety unions continue with their demands in these tough economic times then more layoffs will be the order of the day. Eisner save it will you..... |
Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Oct 24 2009 at 8:42am
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Wasteful,
You are exactly right. The unions are setting themselves up for a big fall somewhere in the future not too far away. We have 8 unions. Their combined salaries, bennies and pensions will eventually bring the city to a major blockwall. They will either have to become
more reasonable or be cut or outsourced. I'm really very sorry that they are short-sighted to their own detriment and that of the city. Their demands are too much for a city our size. I wish they would reanalyze their situation and be more reasonable. The work (particularly the fire department) is out standing. I have not found them to be reasonable in their thinking and it will someday backfire and hurt us all. Its too bad. I believe I am their biggest supporter and have been for a number of years but I see where it is heading.
Thanks for your response.
Paul Nagy
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Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Oct 24 2009 at 12:32pm
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Mr. Nagy,
I am curious as to what actions the fire union is taking that is so detrimental. You must have some information that I am not privileged to. Please post some of information you have.
Thanks in advance for your reply,
ashkicker
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Oct 24 2009 at 12:57pm
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Oct 24 2009 at 1:09pm
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Businesses are leaving town. Poverty is rising. Population declining 1000 vacant houses in Middletown waiting to be torn down. High per capita Section 8 and Public Housing. Poor performing schools. Crime rising. Poor Infrastructure. Etc., Etc., Etc.
This all translates into lower tax revenues which pays the salaries of the city workers. If this decline continues and is not reversed, then sooner or later and I think it will be sooner Public Safety is going to be impacted in the form of layoffs. As Pacman said it is Economic 101.
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Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Oct 24 2009 at 1:11pm
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Pacman,
That you for the informative reply. Have you talked to the City Manager or the Union President lately? Take some time and call them and ask about relations between the two. I'm sure most of the information posted here is correct, it is not 100% correct.
Ashkicker
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Oct 24 2009 at 2:16pm
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Ashkicker are you saying the relationship is less than amicable? That wouldn't surprise me in the least......if it was. But you have to look at this economically and not whether you agree with the City Admin. You have to look at do I take a pay freeze or cut now to preserve all of the Fire fighters jobs and benefits or do we bang heads with the city until it is to late and layoffs start. Believe me I own my own business and have taken a huge pay cut to survive. My wife has taken an 8% pay cut to preserve her job and that of other employees. This is not something that many of us haven't already experienced ourselves.
The city as I see it is not on its way to growing it Tax revenues anytime soon significantly. They spend a significant amount of time, money and man hours dealing with HUD issues which doesn't lend itself to increased tax revenue. It lends itself to bringing in more low income housing, lower tax paying citizens, etc. The city needs to bring back the socio-economic balance so that we can afford Public Safety, so we can increase Public Safety employees, so that we can have a new Fire Station to replace some of the less than desirable ones, so that we can have more Police Officers, better equipment and training, etc., etc., etc.
What is going to happen if the current Public Safety tax levy fails upon renewal, in the current condition the city is in and the financial condition of its citizens due to the economy there is a good chance it would.
You can't continue to raise taxes on the limited number of residents you have that pay the bulk of the taxes. You need to bring in new residents, with new jobs to support the city. Currently I don't see that happening.
Personally I think Middletown's population is declining possibly by as much as 7-10% with the coming 2010 census. The 2007 census already estimates Middletown's population at about 48000, that would be a significant drop.
Good Luck
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Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Oct 24 2009 at 3:23pm
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Pacman,
Less than amicable? Yes. When you call the Union President, ask him if the City Manager requested a pay freeze from the Union. Then ask him what he did in response. I believe the Union President was willing to work with the City to hold down costs and was blown off by the City Manager.
Did you find it odd that Public Safety seemed to be an afterthought at the budget meeting? More than that, why were neither the Fire Chief nor the Police Chief not present? Were they asked not to be there? Just wondering.
Ashkicker
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Oct 24 2009 at 8:13pm
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ashkicker what is the image that the average citizen sees when they watched the Council meeting about the budget and cuts. They saw an Admin that proposed cutting jobs from Depts. other than Public Safety. There was very little talk of Public Safety, I believe the Police had a small cut and Fire a larger cut, but no personnel were laid off. The Public does not know what goes on behind the closed doors at City Hall and I venture if anyone calls and inquires of the City they will paint a rosey picture.
Now this is not to say I don't think that City employees can't do more. Personally I think City employees should be paying more of their Health Care Premium.
Question for you why did your Union Endorse Marconi and Armbruster? Just curious......most of the Public Safety employees can't even vote in the City election from what Council says.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Oct 25 2009 at 1:35pm
Ashkicker:
As I recall from past posts, you are a firefighter and seemed to be a straight shooter and respected by most (if not all) of the regulars on this forum.
That being said, it appears that you already know the answers that we will get (or at least that we should get) if and when we were ever able to contact city officials at a time when they were "set up to answer questions." In my opinion, it would be deeply appreciated by all if you would simply share this information with us, rather than have us go through the machinations (and endure the extended time period that would probably elapse) if we had to gleen this info on our own.
I am rather certain that if you deal with us in a straightforward manner, you will receive the same in return. If you are a regular reader here, you might have noticed that for the very most part, that we treat others the way we are treated.
Thank you in advance if you continue to favor us with your valued input.
Most of us here seek the truth, and what is best for the city. We don't always agree (even among ourselves) but we are always as willing to listen to the opinions of others as they are to listen to ours.
Regards, Mike P.
PS: Sometimes we are even good for a laugh or two, and even laugh at ourselves!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
ashkicker wrote:Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Oct 25 2009 at 2:41pm
| Perhaps,just maybe the reason the city has no money is because everything is being dumped into the east side,aka Renaissance district ? Some of you here know and understand the workings of the city better than I, so do they have the ability to empty funds and spend it on the east side project ? |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Oct 25 2009 at 4:25pm
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Hermes What they are working on now is to dump HUD-CDBG funds on "Renaissance West" (mall area). They are working on it as we speak and Mr. Adkins will again use the 54% rule to make this happen if they get the $19 million in funding
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Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Oct 26 2009 at 9:31am
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I do know for a fact that they have asked concessions of the unions - such as days off without pay - But have they asked this of the non union individuals as well. I know in other cities this is happening - but is it in Middletown, does anyone know?
Also keep in mind that the empty houses and jobless rate in Middletown causes more crime. Empty houses result in arson and theft rises with a lack of income - we need to be careful on what we cut when it comes to our safety.
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Posted By: taxed2death
Date Posted: Oct 30 2009 at 4:43pm
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moon are you saying they are trurning the mall into hud section 8 housing? or did i miss understand your post? ------------- I hope it gets better soon! |
Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Oct 30 2009 at 8:41pm
Perfectly reasonable way of expressing a view on a subject. I disagree with your Logic, but that is fine. Most of my rebuts have been more to the inciting tone of the comments than the Subject matter itself. Please keep up the civility so that we might have a worthwhile discussion. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Oct 30 2009 at 10:42pm
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Lrisner you can disagree all you want. The fact of the matter is revenues are declining from a declining population. A population that is becoming less affluent or middle class and more poverty stricken.
It is a simple fact that if revenues continue to decline as I believe they will for the foreseeable future that employees will have to make sacrifices if they wish to avoid layoffs or even keep their own jobs. This is especially true of the Unionized employees.
Now logically you can say, hey lets make a sacrifice now and increase our share of the premium of Health Care costs as an example or you can elect to do nothing until the cities hand is forced and layoffs occur.
It is coming sooner or later and some on council see it, but union devotees such as yourself would just as soon push the envelope to the nth degree and force the issue. You see it matters little to me which way the union goes. Either way they lose something, one way they lose a little, one way they lose a lot. Either way the money out of my pocket is the same.
I seriously doubt Middletown will be voting for any increase in taxes anytime soon. I would not be surprised to see the Public Safety Levy fail if there are not significant improvement in Middletown before it comes up for vote again.
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Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Oct 31 2009 at 2:42pm
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They have a contract! If revenues were to increase unexpectedly from the time the contract was negotiated, would you be in favor of giving the employees MORE than the Contract required? Of course you would not! That is why we have Contracts. You spoke earlier of you and your wife taking less because of economic conditions, are you saying you will not take MORE when Economic conditions improve? Of course you will. It is unreasonable to expect contract Employees to take cuts in bad times unless you are willing to let them have more (over and above contract requirements) in good times. The problem with your Logic is you want them to share the suffering in bad times, but only take contract requirements in good times, all the while you expect the benefits of the good times yourself. Think about it for a minute before you allow yourself to "kneejerk" about it. What's the point of a contract otherwise? |
Posted By: tootie
Date Posted: Oct 31 2009 at 3:44pm
| This is only my opinion so if goes against your position on this matter, oh well. Your statement that it is unreasonable to expect contract employees to take cuts in bad times unless they get more (or over and above contract requirements) in good times just reinforces my belief that the unions should be disbanded. How do you think an employee feels who has devoted say 15 years to a company gets laid off but someone who has only been there 4 years stays because they are "union". And why should they get over and above their contract if the economy got better? That comment just baffles me. Just because they have a "contract" that does not entitle them to more than their contract requirements. If they are union, usually they are getting more than a non union worker anyway. And yes most people cut back when times are bad and pick back up as the economy improves. That is only common sense and human nature unless you have a money tree in your back yard or are in the upper income bracket. The problem with your LOGIC is that it appears you think union employees are in the same category as the Wall Street and Banking executives who take exorbitant salaries and bonuses with no regards to the companies stabilty. Once again this is my opinion just as your post is yours. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Oct 31 2009 at 9:40pm
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Lrisner a contract is of little value when the funds are not there to follow thru. Like I said it matters little to me what the Unions do, when the time comes for layoffs and if the Unions refuse to make any concessions, then layoffs it will be. Your logic is one of the major downfalls of unionized labor and the reason when times get tough so many union jobs are lost.
If the city goes bankrupt tomorrow and the state steps in you think there won't be layoffs of union employees.....think again. You just keep maintaining they have a contract.
As far as my family goes I have taken a 50% pay cut and my wife an 8% pay cut. Wifes company started layoffs last week. Do I expect my wifes income to come back probably not any time soon. As far as mine goes I have more control over that and it will return as I am self employed. Maybe I should write a contract between myself and my company and bankrupt my company trying to maintain my old salary during these tough times. Of course I think using my logic I will fair better in the long run.
I love the Union mentality though don't give up $25.00 a week but loose your job in the end....makes perfect sense but only to Union employees fortunately.
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Posted By: rngrmed
Date Posted: Nov 01 2009 at 12:11am
| I think Irisner makes some good points. We do expect city employees to take a cut when things go bad, but we are in no hurry to give them raises when things are good. I'm sure if the economy was booming right now, maybe the unions would call for a contract RENEGOTIATION. Yes the unions have contracts that should be honored, but if they ALL want to stay employed, maybe they should consider a renegotiation. Who knows, maybe the city can buy some hanging pots and bring in some more Dollar General Stores |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 01 2009 at 2:10am
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rngrmed, tell us the last year that Public Safety, which is basically what we are talking about here, did not get a raise of 2-4% per year? Tell us the last year they didn't have excellent Health Benefits and other benefits?
rngr, if the city was thriving and revenues were on the rise or even maintaining past levels no one would question the raies or talking about concessions. The same goes for matters such as Section 8 if we had 500-600 vouchers to start with, there would be no uproar about Section 8. If poverty was at a leverl of 8-10% I doubt it would be an issue either. If the schools were performing up to par, you get the picture. But all of the above are not operating in an acceptable manner to many. So do you just ignore the issues as many in Middletown tend to want to do for some reason or do you try to make adjustments to improve or in Middletown's case just survive? Personally I say you make changes and push for a better day when raises are not an issue, Section 8 is not an issue, Schools are perfoming better and not an issue etc., others only see the what is in it for me now and that is the way it is.
Maybe the city should start taxing retirement benefits of its citizens, excluding Social Security, to raise its revenues and maintain it's Unionized employees standard of living.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 01 2009 at 2:33am
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Pac,
I'm starting to worry about you!! It seems like more and more often, I see you awake and on here in the wee hours!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 01 2009 at 2:52am
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Interesting read on some of these old Conciliations awards and contracts of city employees:
http://www.serb.state.oh.us/sections/research/WEB%20CONCILIATION%20AWARDS/1996-MED-09-0764.pdf - http://www.serb.state.oh.us/sections/research/WEB%20CONCILIATION%20AWARDS/1996-MED-09-0764.pdf
Conciliation Awards throughout the state:
http://www.serb.state.oh.us/sections/research/WEB%20CONCILIATION%20AWARDS/_CONCILIATION%20LIST%20HYPERLINKED2.pdf - http://www.serb.state.oh.us/sections/research/WEB%20CONCILIATION%20AWARDS/_CONCILIATION%20LIST%20HYPERLINKED2.pdf
Middletown Fire Dept. facebook.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Firefighters-Local-336/135879957686 - http://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Firefighters-Local-336/135879957686
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 01 2009 at 2:54am
Mike must be Old Age setting in.
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 01 2009 at 3:59am
| Pacman that is all fine and good, but a major problem is that most city employees do not live in Middletown, hence Middletown is nothing more than a paycheck for them. They have no stake here. They want every penny they can get and every benefit no matter the cost. As long as most employees have no stake in the city you have a problem. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 01 2009 at 4:39am
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More important might be the out-of-towners (firefighters) campaigning for Mr. Armbruster. They may not be paying attention to any city affairs that do not directly affect them.
I cannot understand how ANYONE, even a close friend or relative, could have watched Mr. Armbruster's performance during the Candidate Forums and read (AND investigate my replies concerning the supposed "rumored" meetings) and still vote for the man or support his campaign, UNLESS they simply see him as "easy to control" or an automatic vote "for the boys". I mean even after he studiouusly pours over the "workbook" for at least THREE DAYS before each council meeting, and VOTES TO APPROVE the meeting minutes, he hasn't even realized that the other council members have been MEETING BEHIND HIS BACK on important issues!!!
Plus, neither he OR Mr. Marconi can understand that an INCREASED PAYROLL TAX RATE (a FACT) plus their 1,000 "claimed" NEW JOBS CANNOT EQUAL Continually DECREASING REVENUES (another FACT)!!!
This is BEYOND BELIEF!!! (Or, they are BLINDLY saying what they have been "COACHED" to say, AS STATED in the "Moving Middletown Forward" flyer found in the City Manager's office!!!)
------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 01 2009 at 7:32am
| Mike I think it is just as simply as the Union is looking out for the Union and the residents be damned. They endorsed those that will continue to push for what the Unions want. JMHO. Most have no interest in what happens in the city financially past their Paychecks and Benefits. |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 01 2009 at 10:07am
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Which employees are prohibited from striking? Basically, all public safety employees are prohibited from striking under Ohio’s Collective Bargaining Law and must use conciliation. In OCSEA, the following employees are considered prohibited from striking against their employer: Firefighters, Correction Officers, Correctional Sergeants/Counselors, Juvenile Correction Officers, Shooting Range Attendants, Psychiatric Attendants, Psychiatric Attendant Coordinators, Security Technician 1, Security Technician 2, Youth Program Specialists, and all employees at the School of the Deaf and the School for the Blind. What does the conciliator do? A conciliator selects either the proposal of the employer or the union on each proposal either party has submitted. Unlike fact finding, in conciliation, the conciliator is required to pick either the union’s or the employer’s offer and not a compromise between them.When selecting the employer’s offer or the union’s offer, the conciliator bases his or her decision on the following: Past Collective Bargaining Agreements Comparison of other public and private employers doing comparable work The interests and welfare of the public The ability of the employer to pay The parties’ stipulations The authority of the employerHow does conciliation work? Take for example roll call pay. Suppose at conciliation the employer’s position is toeliminate roll call pay altogether and presents evidence to support its argument. The Union’s position is to leave roll call pay as is and supplies the conciliator with evidence supporting its argument. Given this hypothetical situation, the conciliator can only pick one offer or the other. The conciliator has no authority to find middle ground between the two issues. Whichever offer the conciliator chooses, it is final and binding on both parties. The award has the same legal effect as an arbitration award. |
Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Nov 01 2009 at 12:21pm
| The downfall of this city is not the unions fault. If you do not agree with the contracts that the unions have then blame it on the city management - they are the ones that negotiated the contract with the unions. Personnally I have no problem with the unions getting what they have now - it is the economic developement, city management that needs to be looked at. Start where the problem is - we cut our safety - then the city will get worse. If crime gets worse - then it is even harder to bring companies into the city - no new jobs for MIddletown is a really big problem. |
Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Nov 01 2009 at 3:46pm
It amazes me that you see something wrong with an impartial Professional choosing who is right in a dispute. To be honest, I can't see how anyone could be against that. Your bias is on full display when you get on the soapbax about this Issue. |
Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Nov 01 2009 at 11:23pm
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PacMan,
I'm sure you know the answer to your own question. We support candidates that support us. Just because the Union supports a candidate doesn't mean the individual member wil vote for that candidate. We are free to vote our own choice.
Mike P.,
Why do I draw out the issue and not go directly to the point? Look back at my response to Nick Kidd on the issue of "Crash Tax??" Here is a blogger that is spewing information that is so inaccurate it is unbelievable. I go state absolute facts to refute Mr. Kidd's information and the issue dies. I hope by stringing along this thread it will continue to be viewed.
Wasteful,
So because some fire fighters do not live in town, we don't care about Middletown? Lets see, over fifty years of holding dances to help the citizens of Middletown. Wheelchairs for disabled children, specialized wetsuits for a child with birth defects, sponsor several ball teams yearly. We have sent terminally ill children to Disney World. Annual golf outing that has paid the electric bill for the Dream Center, not to mention we helped build the Dream Center. Care packages for the troops overseas, Shriners Hospital and United Way. We built the Habitat for Humanity house on Centennial Avenue. We have paid off loans for a man injured in a motorcycle accident that couldn't pay his bills. For years did the shopper shuttle at the mall to raise money. And to think we didn't get paid a dime from the City to perform those activities. Yeah......I guess we don't care about this City.
And response to looking out for ourselves and the citizens be "damned", a former City Manger made the comment once that it would be cheaper to let houses burn down and fight the lawsuits than to fund the fire department. Contrary to your beliefs, we do care about the citizens and what happens to them. We as a department are stretched very thin now, reducing our manpower anymore will be detrimental to the citizens of this town. As I stated earlier, the City Manager asked the Union to freeze our wages for 2010. A freeze would have resulted in an approximately $185,000 savings to the City. The Union President told the City Manager the Membership probably would not approve a wage freeze but would work with the City to save a comparable amount of money. The Union was blown off and that is where talks of concessions ended.
ashkicker
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Posted By: missmisc
Date Posted: Nov 04 2009 at 8:39pm
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To ashkicker:
I presume from your online name and from the gist of your comments, that you are a firefighter here in Middletown. If so, I'm grateful for your knowledge and skill should I, as a citizen, ever need you. As a city of middletown employee, I have the following serious complaints about the firefighters as a group. My use of the word "you" does not refer to you personally, since I don't know who you are, and perhaps you are not representative of our firefighters. As a firefighter: -You have gotten 3% cost of living increases each of the last 5 years. I have gotten 0% or 2%, not retroactive, one year, only, out of the last 5 was 3%. -My health care cost contributions have gone up. Have yours? -People I work with have gotten laid off, services to the city have been cut, and departments I work with have taken % cuts of over 10%, like 13%-15 or so. Your department/union would not take a .5%(or was it 1.5%) cut at the council meeting last night. Your success is at our expense, on our backs. -Public safety part of the budget is 75%. How much of that is specifically fire department, and how many firefighters are there in the city? There are 63 of us non-union people left. We are taking the cuts. -Many of your co-firemen have a 2nd firefighting job in nearby communities. You make $40,000-$60,000 salary here in Middletown, and an additional $... somewhere else. Total income...more than I make. More than many readers of this thread. -How many of you live in Middletown, and buy our houses, shop in our grocery stores, and send your kids to our schools? -You work regular 24 hour shifts here, overtime 24 hour shifts here, and then are able to put the extra hours a week into the other job(s). -In order to get those 24 hour OT shifts, you trade with each other. -Why can't you work 8 hour shifts like the rest of us, and then at least all you're trading is 8 hours to get overtime. If you had 8 hour shifts, you wouldn't be able to work that 2nd job. -How much of those 24 hours do you sleep, eat, play cards? How many hours do you maintain equipment. Our garage folks do the vehicle maintenance. How many fires in a year do you actually fight? I can remember 1-3 fires in the last 3 years. Perhaps there are some that I don't know about. -I know you are all EMT's and answer health emergency calls. That could be done in an 8 hour day. -A couple of years ago, the firefighters threatened to go door to door here in Middletown, to scare everyone into passing some sort of a bill to save all of your benefits. If I told them how unhappy I am, would you let my house burn? If you were on strike you would. If you knew who I am, would you? -You are mostly between 20 and 35 years of age, full of yourselves, and the testosterone of youth, and appear to have no concept or care of the rest of your fellow city workers. -To contrast: the police are out on the streets on a daily basis, being willing to get shot at, hit, and spit on. They were willing to take department cuts for the well-being of the city's financial situation. -Most of my co-workers and I enjoy helping the public, and also want to help you when you ask. Many of us work for the city because in some way, we are oriented toward service to others. -Next time you need help from one of the people in one of our departments that have lost co-workers, or who aren't getting the same cost-of-living increase you are, will you expect cheerful, helpful service? I know without a doubt that you will receive it. Will we resent you? Probably. If you, ashkicker, as an individual firefighter, are not part of the representation above, I am grateful. Perhaps you could try to talk to your fellow firefighters and get some fairness and balance in your department. To the outside readers of this: the city income, percentages, cost of living data, etc., is all public record. You can ask for this information and it will be given to you. The fire department can't deny the data, but they can threaten to deny service if they don't get what they want, and if they get asked to "give" anything. At some point, we could farm out the whole city employee base, and still not have enough money to have a happy fire department. If all we had left was a fire department, could they fix a broken water line that their fire hoses hook up to? Could they pave a street damaged by potholes so they could get to you to save you during your heart attack? Would they clear the snow from a side street to administer a poison antidote to your toddler? Would they print their own paychecks, or fix their own computers? Thanks for the chance to vent anonymously. |
Posted By: Mr. Dave
Date Posted: Nov 04 2009 at 8:46pm
| Well said, and I welcome you to come here and vent all day. That was the best read in a while for me. |
Posted By: stewieboy
Date Posted: Nov 04 2009 at 10:06pm
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Well put missmisc. I work for the city too and know lots of fireman and police officers in the City and your assesment is right on. I can tell you my sentiment is shared by many other employees as well. Unfortunately we do not have city leaders (council and city government) willing to stand up to the union. I can tell you from experience that we have a very hard working police force. For 8 hours a day they are always alert and busy. With the bad economy their job has only gotten toughfer. I cannot say the same for our fire fighters. However that is the nature of their job. They are only busy when there is an "incident". How many fire fighters have to be in the station at any moment ready to go? I do not know the answer to that question. |
Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 1:06am
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Missmisc.,
Thanks for responding and asking questions. I will answer honestly and hope you find my information helpful. Some information is readily available and some will take some digging.
I do consider myself part of the "you" that you refer to and take no offense to it.
Here we go...............
Health care costs -- I pay the same as non-union employees as I am told. That being said, my health care costs have also risen.
Budget cuts -- Management and Union are two different entities. What the Chief does budget wise is his decision. The City Manager would be the one that would talk to the Union about cuts. The Fire Chief laid out his plan to cut his budget before the City Manager. His cuts were promoting three fire fighters to reduce supervisory overtime ($50,000 savings), eliminate line item for radio repair ($25,000 savings), eliminate day Deputy Chief ($125,000), eliminate training Captain and Fire Marshal ($200,000 savings) and eliminate one Engine Company (11 fire fighters = $839,000 savings). The City Manager said the first three items would be enough and items 4 and 5 would stay intact. Not included in those 5 options are the second Training Captain and Fire Marshal that was eliminated earlier this year. That move will save the City $200,000 in 2010. So if the Council approves the cuts the City Manager wants, the Fire Department will cut it's budget by $375,000. As I have stated in earlier posts, the City Manager asked the Union President for a wage freeze in 2010. The Union President felt the fire fighters would not accept a wage freeze, but would be willing to try to save a comparable amount through other concessions. The City Manager basically ignored the Union's offer.
Percent of budget -- I'm sorry, I do not know how much of the general fund goes to the Fire Department. I have heard numbers like 60%/40% split between the police and fire, respectfully. Currently we have 81 fire fighters and 1 administrative assistant.
Wages and part-time employment -- Am you discourging extra money for extra work? If I worked 8 hours a day and worked at McDonalds, would you be upset? If I drove a cruiser for 8 hours and then sit security at the SunCoke site, would that be OK? Some guys work extra jobs so their wives don't have to work, send their kids to private schools, etc. If you are a City worker and decided to work at WalMart to make some extra money for Christmas, I wouldn't be upset.
In-town/Out-of-town -- 81 fire fighters in the department with 14 living in town and 67 living out of town. Obviously, 14 did buy a house in Middletown. I have no idea how many send their children to Middletown schools. I sure the in-town fire fighters do not shop exclusively in Middletown and I'm sure the out-of-town fire fighters do not avoid shopping in town. I am guessing you only shop in Middletown?
24 hour shifts -- Again, if fire fighters want to spend their off time from the City working a part time job (Be it fire fighting or teaching at Butler Tech) it is their choice.
Overtime and trades -- Are you saying that we trade to create overtime? Trading does not create overtime. If 19 fire fighters are scheduled to work and I'm one of the 19 working and Joe isn't working and we trade, there are still 19 fire fighters working and no overtime is created.
8 hour shifts -- Fire fighters work a 51 hour week. Everyone one of those 51 hours are at straight time. If we were to go to 8 hour shifts, every hour over 40 would be a time and a half. Fire fighters working a 40 hour shift (fire marshal and light duty positions) make the same bi-weekly salary (approximately $1090) as the fire fighter working a 51 hour work week. The 40 hour employee makes around $27.25/ hour and the 51 hour employee makes approximately $21.35/hour. Studies suggesst the City would have to hire approximately 25 additional fire fighters to cover the 24 shifts with 8 hour shifts.
Work, cards & maintenance -- Some days are slow and you might make 1 or 2 runs in a day. Some days you may make 15 runs a day. Cards, TV, movies, etc.? Yes, when we have down time. In addition to medical and fire calls, we test hydrants, test hoses, test ladders, do inspections, reinspections, public education details, monthly training and station duties. All fire department vehicles are owned by the City Garage and leased by the Fire Department. They don't want us to work on the vehicles, it is their job. 3 fires may be what you remember from the news paper. I don't have the exact number of fires but it is above 3. I will try to get those numbers. Sleep? We need to sleep sometime during that 24 hour period, sometimes we don't get to. Try getting out of bed several times tonight and you will cherish your uninterrupted sleep. Try eating cold food or eating lunch at 5:00 PM. Think about having to get up off the toilet at the most inopportune time. If you work for the City, you get several days off to enjoy with the family. We have to cover the City 24 hours a day regardless of the holiday. I'm not complaining, only showing you that while you think we don't do anything all day, it's not all peaches and cream.
EMT -- Middletown has 79 paramedics and 2 basic EMTs. I'm not sure what you mean by "health emeregency calls". If you mean actual phones calls giving out medical advice, we do not do that. If you mean medical emergencies calls, those happen any hour of the day and can't be held to any 8 hour period. We have had 7 medical calls at one time in the City on more than 1 occasion. 4 Middletown squads, Monroe, JEMS and Madison all at once.
Door-to-door -- I believe you are referring to the closing of Engine Company 5 at Central and Breiel. That is a situation that puts both the citizens and fire fighters at risk. We wanted to make sure the citizens knew that there would no longer be an fire truck at Central and Breiel. You are not the only person that doesn't like fire fighters. We work just as hard to save lives and property regardless of your perception of us. By law, we are not allowed to strike and even if we could, we wouldn't let your house burn down. It's funny that your one of your last statements says you resent us but would still give us good service but somehow if fire fighters resented you, we couldn't give good service.
20 to 35 -- Would you prefer 60 year olds to pull you out of a fire? Youth has its place in both the fire and police fields. I guess I need examples of testosterone and being full of oneself to address that concern. I don't know what to say about not caring for other City employees, I guess we look at the world through different colored glasses.
Police contrast -- I look up to Officers, they do a dangerous job. Did you hear about the patient that tried to throw a fire fighter out the back door of a moving squad. How about the medic punched in the face on a run. Have no fear, both medics were armed with their trusty clipboard. See, we don't have guns and tasers to protect us. Oh yeah, when two fire fighters were trapped in the Recker building and exited minutes before it collapsed, there was no-o-o-o-o danger there. Patients with AIDs, hepaBreasts, and other communicable diseases. Patients flinging blood, urine and feces.
Public service -- Most fire fighters get into this business to help others. We don't enjoy having to tell a crying woman her husband has passed away and there is nothing we can do. We don't enjoy seeing children hurt and in pain. It is a great feeling when you can restart a heart, ease the pain of a broken bone or deliver a baby that won't wait to get to the hospital. Fire fighters, like yourself, gravitate to the fire service to help others.
Missmisc, I hope some of this information you will find useful. I will seek out the information you requested that I didn't have readily available.
ashkicker
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 3:10am
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Lrisner as usual you open your mouth and insert your foot, something that you are so good at doing. My post on Conciliation is an exact quote from the Ohio State Employment Relations Board as to what Conciliation is and how it is setup to work in Ohio and is for those that are not aware of what it is. http://www.serb.state.oh.us/ - http://www.serb.state.oh.us/ Ashkicker as far as my statement, "Most have no interest in what happens in the city financially past their Paychecks and Benefits." I stand by it. I did not say you don't care, I said most have no Financial Interests past getting paid.Your own statement bears this out, "In-town/Out-of-town -- 81 fire fighters in the department with 14 living in town and 67 living out of town."
67 out of 81 have no financial interests past their Salary and benefits.
Ashkicker My question to you is why wouldn't the Fire Fighters support a Wage freeze in 2010 during these hard economic times when a significant number of Middletown residents a) have been laid off or lost their jobs or b) have had to take wage freezes or cuts in pay themselves. It is actions such as these that lead to support of levy's and support for your unions to wane. What other cuts would have been made to offset a like amount of funds?
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Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 8:29am
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wasteful,
So by fire fighters not owning homes in Middletown does that mean nobody is paying taxes on those properties? For every home in Middletown, somebody is paying taxes. The City is getting their cut of property taxes either way. If I live in town I pay income taxes and if I live out of town I pay income taxes. It seems the logic on this board is if we don't live in town, we don't contribute to this town financially. Since the conception is that 67 fire fighters living out of town rush out of town after their shift ends, I guess we don't cost the City for services we use. If you live in town and work in Cincinnati, pay Cincinnati income tax and nothing in income tax to Middletown does that mean you don't have any "financial interest" in the City?
Why do you live in Middletown? Is it because this is where you want to live? I'm sure the out-of-town fire fighters live where they want to live.
Again, if we could save the City comparable money to a wage freeze with other concessions, why did it have to be a wage freeze? We were told by the City Manager that she wanted a wage freeze for one year only. If we could postpone uniform replacements, return certification pays, return some holiday/vacation time or change the method of taking holiday/vacation time to reduce overtime costs, why not sit down at the table and seriously talk about the options.
I realize I am beating my head against the wall trying to explain the Union side of this debate. We will never completely see eye-to-eye.
I hope this helped at least a little bit.
ashkicker
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Posted By: taxed2death
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 8:35am
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Wasteful
If they (the fire dept) was willing to cut money else where to make the diffrence where is the problem? Money is money if the numbers add up? Who cares if its wages they freeze or
if they give something else up. Money saved is money saved isn't? ------------- I hope it gets better soon! |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 8:48am
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"So by fire fighters not owning homes in Middletown does that mean nobody is paying taxes on those properties? For every home in Middletown, somebody is paying taxes."
Ashkicker the above statement has nothing to do with the issue here. I fail to see your point. We are talking about Fire Fighters living here not anyone else that happens to own a house in Middletown. We are also not talking about stopping at the local Pub on the way home and buying a beer.
I have no problem listening to the Union side of the debate. Part of the Problem stems from the fact that I get the impression that the Unions do not see the Citizens side nor the City's side of the debate. Revenues are declining currently and the Unions don't get that. Unless there is a turn around in the near future, layoffs are going to happen.
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Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 9:00am
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Missmisc - I feel you have some resentment. I am not a firefighter or a city employee. But I want to make a few points here. Mentioning the firefighters living in the city is absurd to even say. The head of the community revitilization dept does not live in town. He is helping build the city - what is his stake other then the salary. Just because a firefighter does not live in the city does not mean he will let a building burn here. By the way I do not shop solely in Middletown - do you? You bring up the point of their ages and working elsewhere on their off days. Some of them probably work on the off days for more income - as they get older they may not be able to do the physical job they do now. So they have to make the money while they can. They also have a dangerous job - what if they get hurt - a nice nest egg would be beneficial for their family. But bringing up a 2nd job is absurd anyway - on your time off you could get another job if you want. I work and 8 hour shift and have a 2nd job so that point does not work at all.
3 runs in a few years - I am assuming you only mean big fires. I hear sirens all the time. I am sure some are medical. But if you have a chimney fire - as I did - they came and put the fire out - but it did not make big news across town.
If you want me to think they are overpaid for what they do you need to provide information on what the surrounding cities are paying for their firefighters. If Middletown does not pay a going rate we would be a training ground for the other cities and not have the safety that we all desire.
From the outside looking in (being a non city worker) I think you have a lot of talk on where to place the blame for the loss of jobs in your dept. This could be part of the management plan to make it all look like they are not at fault for not having money. It is a great smoke screen have each dept made at the other so no one will realize where the fault is. Missmisc - I dont think you were given all the information regarding where the concessions were taken. Each dept cut where they could - ask your dept head why you had to give up employees instead of making the cuts in other items in the budget.
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 9:09am
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Bobbie Adkins was not out actively campaigning for a Candidate as the Union was and I would say 90% of them couldn't even vote for Armbruster or Marconi. For that matter we didn't hear from the Police Union either I wonder why or did I miss it. Bobbie what it all boils down to is MONEY, which the city is running out of. You can wish all you want to pay competitive wages, but as long as other city's are growing and Middletown is declining along with revenues, you need to be realistic, until such time if ever there is a turn around there will be continued layoffs and as the City manage stated Tuesday they only have 63 non-union positions I presume to work with.
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Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 9:14am
There is a difference, I think. Given the choice between a one time "payback" in the form of the concessions mentioned or a wage freeze, I'd be silly to choose the wage freeze. If you freeze my wages for a year, that doesn't affect merely one year, but subsequent years assuming I continue to get pay increases. Let's just say I'm scheduled for a 3% increase on my $50,000 salary this year, a 3% raise on my salary the following year, and a 3% raise the next year. Obviously, if I take a wage freeze my first year, the amount of my increase will be affected for years to come. I can understand why the Union suggested what it did. I'm not saying I agree nor disagree, but it's not quite comparing apples to apples when you talk about a wage freeze versus the other one-time concessions. |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 9:24am
If there is no difference take the wage freeze for one year?
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Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 11:17am
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Wasteful - Nothing I said had anything to do with the union backing anyone. It was about the cuts. I am smart enough to know that just because a union, celebrity or anyone else backs a candidate - it does not mean they are the best for the position. Also why do they have to make pay cuts if they can cut from their dept in other areas - your answer is if it does not make a difference then take the wage cut. WHY? By the way there is a difference in taking a cut for a year- law of numbers if I make 10 this year and I get a 10% increase this year I am at 11. The next year it is 12.10 then the next it is 13.31. - It is called compounding. So there are good reasons why people don't like this. If you miss 1 year it does effect the rest of your salary. You are right it does boil down to money - but it also boils down to what you feel will help the city the most. If we have a substandard fire and police dept - we will not attract new business or individuals to Middletown. You will attract more crime. Which is something we do not need. |
Posted By: Gary Barge
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 6:38pm
| The numbers given on this blog by ashkicker are a perfect example of how our city dollars are going by the wayside and being spent in other communities. To get straight to the point this election overwhelmingly voted to have the city manager reside within the city just for those reasons. And as a citizen of Middletown I wholeheartedly support home rule that should have never been voted down by council even though the state says that it is unconstitutional. Our elected officials have the power of home rule and it should be reinstated. Even though we can't force our city employees to move back into the city and support the city that gives them their paychecks I would hope that our new elected officials would mandate home rule as a requirement for new hire to live within the city limits. This is how you build a strong community. Also under the ruling by the state they suggested home rule by used by the hiring entity in case of disaster and all hands on deck could be established in a matter of minutes instead of hours. This is only my opinion. |
Posted By: transplant
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 7:10pm
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gary perhaps you can help with this - was wondering this before the election but is the city manager a contractual employee? if she is couldn't council simply require residency in her or any other city manager contract? if the city manager disagrees with this then there wouldn't be an agreement and therefore no employment. |
Posted By: taxed2death
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 7:16pm
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How many of them live just outside of the city lets say madison or monroe and still shop
and spend money in the city? Just because they don't live in the city doesn't mean they
aren't spending that money in the city? ------------- I hope it gets better soon! |
Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 7:25pm
I know the definition, what I don't understand is why you hate the process (I'll say it again, reallllllll Slow for you the for 100th time) where an IMPARTIAL person decides who is right. Now what part of that do you have trouble getting? The only foot in mouth around here is YOU, you are just too THICK to understand it! |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 7:29pm
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"Also why do they have to make pay cuts if they can cut from their dept in other areas - your answer is if it does not make a difference then take the wage cut. WHY?"
Bobbie I am not the one that said there is no difference, I was simply being sarcastic about the fact that someone said there was no difference.
We do have a substandard Fire and Police Force at this time, and I don't mean performance wise, most likely personnel wise, equipment wise, etc. The problem with many of you is that you only see one thing salary for the worker. When the city continues on with the Band Aids just remember these conversations. When the layoffs start or the Public Safety levy is not renewed just remember. Many of you act as if Middletown can crank up the old printing press and just start printing out $100.00 bills. You either prepare now or suffer the consequences later. Evidently most of you here in Middletown would prefer to suffer the consequences later. When they start taking equipment out of service and closing down say Station 5, no need to worry.
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 7:36pm
| Lrisner I didn't say you didn't know the definition and I don't really care if you do or not, but there are many who may be unaware of the process. You just can't get through the day without being an ass can you. |
Posted By: missmisc
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 8:55pm
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Re some past posts.
Yes. I do resent the situation. That was not hidden. Firefighter part time employment vs. full time: Ashkicker's referring to a part-time employment of working at MacDonalds as not being resented by the firefighters was a little condescending. Is their part-time employment at minimum wage? I do have a part-time job at $8...something/hr. I work 8 to 10, occasionally more, extra hours a week, on the weekend and in the evening. I don't get to sleep and eat while getting paid for either job. I'm on my feet all of the time for job no. 2. Don't condescend to me by being graciously accepting of that job. I am fortunate to have 2 jobs. Some people have none. What does the off-duty firefighter make typically? In town/out of town...living, shopping, etc. We voted to keep the City Manager living in Middletown, because it is supposed to add to his/her commitment to the community that has hired them. Good question earlier about can it be required by contract. I don't think so, but that's just what I've heard. If you visit another community to shop or visit, you are a lot more tolerant of it's conditions than you are of the street that you live on or the community you live in. That's why so many of the people here are upset about things deteriorating here. We LIVE here. I moved here by choice because I wanted to support Middletown, being the city paying me. Currently, I am bothered by the resentment that much of the public has toward the city employees like me, but overall, I like being here. Overtime: If a firefighter has a 24 hour shift, then 2 shifts a week equal 48 hours. Some of those hours are spent sleeping. If Joe gets an overtime shift, there are still 19 guys on call, but Joe gets OT. Am I missing something in the math? Fair pay for fair work is important. Not getting substandard firefighters and police is important. Keeping their wages competitive with the other communities is important. Do the city of Middletown's citizens want that standard applied fairly to other city employees or just to those 2 groups? Somebody above said that if the firefighter doesn't get the cost of living one year, then the 2nd year the cost of living increase doesn't go as far, etc. That's true. That is what has happened to the rest of us. I kept my job this year; am I really going to complain about not getting a 3,2 or even 1% cost of living increase? Absolutely not!! I'm not stupid. I'm not talking about wanting some huge pay increase that I may or may not deserve, just a fair application from our leadership. My earlier comment on youth and testosterone was a bit snippy. I apologize. The basis behind it was that when most of us are younger, we tend to be more self-centered and not see value in things that don't directly benefit us. Some of the respect given elders in past cultures, say, American Indians, or the Chinese respect for the wisdom of their elderly has been missing in the US for a while. That is just how I see a lot of younger folks. A generalization, I admit. |
Posted By: taxed2death
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 9:10pm
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Missmisc I think making the city manager live in the city is not comparable to making the fire/police or plan city employee live in the city because the city manager is king of running the city and should really show alittle bit diffrent commitment to the city then the other employee's just my 2 cents. And what is the part-time wage of there second job? I am sure it depends on what they are doing for a part time job ------------- I hope it gets better soon! |
Posted By: transplant
Date Posted: Nov 05 2009 at 9:23pm
| as a city resident, i want my city manager and police/fire personnel living in the city. safety forces should live within the community in case they are needed in an emergency. residency also does show a level of commitment to the city. i was surprised to see the charter amendment regarding the city manager residency. i don't want a city manager who doesn't want to live here. |
Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Nov 06 2009 at 8:51am
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A few points that need to be thought about. If you cut wages it does have a domino effect. There is less city tax from the wages coming in, less money spent on nonessential items, and in worse case scenario it does lead to foreclosure which hurts the county taxes we receive from that home and the surrounding homes. As values decrease so does the taxes. I do feel if money can be saved by cutting some of the other waste at the city - that is where it needs to be. Does not mean you can avoid layoffs or pay cuts. But if they were able to do this for the firefighters we should be glad they were not cut. Each dept has some responsiblity and it is up to the management to decide where it is feasible. Does not mean that each dept would be able to cut the same way.
If the firefighters were to change to the traditional 40 hour week with no overtime - we would have 2 options, hire more or have less on duty. There is a minimum amount that you would need to make these runs. If we hire more, even part time individuals, it would cost more money then just paying overtime. For each employee there is also unrealized costs in benefits that is required (and I am not talking health insurance). So sometimes it makes more sense to pay overtime then to hire more - don't have access to the numbers to verify if this is the case here - but I would guess it would be.
Missmisc. - I feel for you as I am working 2 jobs as well - not because I want the extra cash for Christmas. You have a friend out here - because it is hard - I am living on my coffee every morning. I am also sure you are now doing more work at your main job since they made cuts there. Keep your head up - and always take at least 15 minutes a day to yourself. It makes me feel a little better.
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Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Nov 06 2009 at 12:10pm
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Missmisc,
I was not trying to be condecending in my reference to McDonalds. I was using McDonalds because everybody knows McDonalds. Are fire fighters only allowed to work minimum wage second jobs? If you had a chance to make more money at your second job would you accept a higher wage? Of course you would! If part time employers are paying $18/hr should we tell that employer we will take the job but only if he pays $8/hr? Do you get a break at your full time or part time job? If your house were on fire or you needed CPR we can't call for a supervisor and ask for a potty break. We don't put off making runs because it is noon and time for lunch. Should we go out of service for an hour to eat our lunch and supper? You complain about being on your feet for 8 hours but then want us to be on our feet for 24 hours. You complain about our second jobs but when I state I have no problem with you having a second job, I'm condecending? Fire fighters make a myriad of wages. I thought people were paid based primarily on the skill level needed for that job. Plumbers make good money, lawyers make good money, pharmacists make good money. Fire fighters have specialized training and therefor make good wages. I know you will probably find this condecending but I am serious. Enroll at Butler Tech in their fire fighter course and then get your paramedic certification and you can earn the "big bucks" you say we make. We have women fire fighters on the department.
I still do not understand why people blog that because you can live outside Middletown you don't care about Middletown. Do you think the deteriorating condition of Middletown has affected our jobs? I have seen a shift wherein we are being used as people's primary care because they can't afford health insurance. A man's furnace makes a funny noise and he calls 911. When we arrive at the house, the phonebook is out and opened to furnace repair. It was a simple problem for a furnace repairman, not us. I believe, but am willing to think I'm wrong, that the man called and found out what a service call from the furnace man was going to cost and felt 911 could be a cheaper solution. You are upset that citizens are resentful toward you but yet you can be resentful toward us? I don't understand.
I work 24 hours on/48 hours off every 3 days. That means for every 3 week cycle I work 72 hours 1 week and the next 2 weeks I work 48 hours each week. In other words, every 3 weeks I work Sunday, then Wednesday, then Saturday, then Tuesday, then Friday, then Monday and finally Thursday. The cycle repeats itself the following Sunday. Every one of those 168 hours I work on those 7 days are at straight time. The only time overtime is required is if daily minimum staffing falls below 19 fire fighters or if we are short Officers. There are days were there are more than 19 fire fighters on duty and those fire fighters routinely staff an additional Medic unit.
I can't say if the Citizens of Middletown want competitive wages across the board. I believe they want the most quailified employee for the amount of wages available.
Missmisc, I don't know what department you work in the at the City building. I'm sure your workload has probably increased. In the fire department, we have reduced the work force from a high number of around 90+ several years ago to 81 today. The size of the city has risen from 20 square miles to over 25 square miles in the past 10-15 years. The run volume has doubled over the last 10-15 years. The move of the hospital has been detrimental to our department in terms of units being out of service longer. Fire fighting has changed little in those 10-15 years, we still have to go into structures, put water on the fire and overhaul the fire scene. We have went from funeral homes making the emergency runs in this City to fully staffed Medic units. This economy will tax our fire system more before it gets better.
I accept your apolgy for the 20-35 year old comment. Again I hope this information has answered some of your concerns. Please continue to post your concerns and I will continue to answer them.
ashkicker
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 06 2009 at 12:46pm
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"A few points that need to be thought about. If you cut wages it does have a domino effect. There is less city tax from the wages coming in, less money spent on nonessential items, and in worse case scenario it does lead to foreclosure which hurts the county taxes we receive from that home and the surrounding homes. As values decrease so does the taxes."
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 06 2009 at 12:47pm
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ashkicker- In amoungst the bantering back and forth about city employees, I want you to know that, based on my experiences with the emergency services in Middletown, my family has had nothing but rave reviews about the service. We have never had a house fire, but we have had to call 911 several times related to my wife's health emergencies. NO FINER RESPONSE TIME AND TRAINED EMERGENCY CARE AROUND than with the paramedics here in town. Recently, my wife had a stroke and the squad was called. My son said that no sooner had he talked to the 911 operator, that he could hear the sirens. We've lived in this town for many years and have never had a bad response from your department. Your crew is one of the bright spots in this town. If all city government departments operated as well as yours, we would see some significant improvement in the services to the citizens.
Thank you all for helping us in our time of need. You are appreciated!! Vet  
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Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Nov 06 2009 at 1:12pm
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Vietvet,
We, as fire fighters, don't need to be called heroes and we don't need to be viewed as role models. We don't need 1/2 price food from local restaurants. What we crave from the public, our employer, is exactly want you have given us. The last line in your post:
"You are appreciated!"
You have made my day. Thank you.
ashkicker
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Posted By: Bobbie
Date Posted: Nov 06 2009 at 6:09pm
| Wasteful - you are right that has happened already - however it can and is getting worse. Especially in Middletown - like I said earlier - demanding the unions take a cut - is not the answer to the overall problem. Nor is it a fix. But the cuts do not always have to be at the unions expense - there is so much waste that goes on ---- one example is a few years ago sending individuals to Vegas to see how to save the Towne Mall. That was a big waste of money. I do not think individuals needed a free trip to Vegas at the expense of any employee (union or not). That stuff still goes on now. I have been told of some more recent expendiatures - but because it was told to me in confidence ( fear for a job) I wil not say it here. |
Posted By: stewieboy
Date Posted: Nov 06 2009 at 6:40pm
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" Plumbers make good money, lawyers make good money, pharmacists make good money. Fire fighters have specialized training and therefor make good wages. I know you will probably find this condecending but I am serious. Enroll at Butler Tech in their fire fighter course and then get your paramedic certification and you can earn the "big bucks" you say we make. "
I really have no problem with the pay that a fire fighter is making. They are working in a high risk situation and thus should be paid accordingly. However I would be a miss if I didn't point out that the amount of training/education needed for a fire fighter is no where close to what is required when compared to either a lawyer or pharmacists. These are 2 degrees requiring 6 years of college level education. I myself have 6+ years of college and I don't earn more than a lot of the fire fighters in the city.
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Posted By: stewieboy
Date Posted: Nov 06 2009 at 6:41pm
I could be wrong but I strongly recall that when Mike Robinette travelled to the Vegas convention last year he paid for the air fare expense out of his own pocket.
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 06 2009 at 7:08pm
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Stewie this conversation has nothing to do with, do they or don't they deserve what they make. That is absolutely irrelevant to this conversation. The conversation is about being able to continue the service level that we have at least now in these tough economic times, trying to prevent layoffs or Station closures down the road.
Also I believe everyone that went to Vegas paid their own way, if I am not mistaken.
Bobbie according to Gillelands statement last Council meeting they have 63 employees I take it that are not unionized, sooner or later you are going to hit the Unions.
Middletown will be at the very tail end of any recovery from this economic mess maybe years after other cities in the area start to recover, if they ever do. You have to change with the times or you die with the times.
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Posted By: missmisc
Date Posted: Nov 06 2009 at 10:58pm
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Ashkicker - nope, didn't find your comment about training and wages condescending. Appreciate your wondering though. And, thanks for the invite to try firefighter training. If I was younger I might think about it, although at the time I was younger, I probably wouldn't have been interested.
The appreciation of you from Vietvet and the hero/role model comment you made in return was interesting...it got me thinking about heroes off and on today. I think that hero ultimately refers to someone who has saved a life, or is willing to lay theirs on the line to save a life. You, as a firefighter, definitely fall into that category. Maybe you don't have to go that far on a daily basis, but because of your training, and willingness to dive into someone else's life's problems, you are certainly willing and able to potentially be that hero. I suspect Vietvet is in that same category, even though his military service was (probably) quite a while ago. But, probably his frame of mind is still there. I know that if you saved my life or responded to an emergency for me, you'd be in or close to hero status in my mind. A lot of teachers fit there as well, because of the influence on our kids lives. So...thanks to both of you. You may not have to, or have had to, be a hero, but you were willing to be. Ashkicker and your saying that I am resentful toward you. Apparently I'm not explaining well. Sorry. I will try a bit more here. Hopefully I don't make it worse. If if do, it's not going to be my intent. My resentment isn't toward you. It's toward what I see is an unfair practice of the reality of being employed at the City. I wish I got a cost of living increase every year. I wish the council was as supportive of and concerned about our well-being, and job security as it has been of yours. One of Viet's comments to you was appreciation for your work. Most of the rest of us miss that from the public, the city management, and council. You happen to be represented by a very strong union. Those of us that are 'resentful' don't have any representation, strong or otherwise. I suspect the rest of the union-represented people aren't as 'resentful'. Not sure. Right now, if a union approached the city non-unionized workers, I might be willing to listen, and I have not typically been pro-union in the past. Call it envy...maybe? It definitely hurts, at any rate. That said, I know that public health and safety is different from the more paper-pushing aspects of what some of the rest of us do. It's that willingness to dive into danger, again. But, I'll go back to my complaint of not having any cost of living, wage freeze, job losses. It seems unfair. I'll still call it that. Do you see that at all? Size of the city. I absolutely agree that has put an extra burden on you. I guess from my position, my similar complaint is that from 1965 until a couple of years ago, we were paying the same taxes, but had annexed ______miles, and ______square miles. And with the same money, we now have to maintain all that extra. (I suspect I can find the numbers on Monday.) I know I've heard them, and it was pretty discouraging. To me, it was like looking back at the money I earned in the late 1960's and early 1970's when I was in another part of the country, which as I recall was around $4.10 an hour, and trying to pay todays mortgage or groceries with it, just by trying to "work smarter, and trimming unneeded expenses". Pretty overwhelming, I think. Ashkicker...thanks for being willing to keep discussing here. Vietvet... I am sorry to hear about your wife. I hope she's ok. It's difficult to watch our family hurt. You mentioned poor operation of other city departments except for the fire dept. What would you see as good operation? Are you looking to get rid of all the employees? all of the management? Both? Just wondering. I don't know what your experience with the city has been. I don't know if you had some bad experience with someone or anything. If so, I wish I could apologise for something I don't know anything about, but I probably can't. I know that there isn't a company I've ever worked for that hasn't had some bad employees, or even good ones having a bad day. I wish I could be proud enough of myself to say I've never been a less than an exemplary employee, but that wouldn't be true. I do try to be a good one. I would hope you could let some of the rest of us off the hook of whatever your assumptions are. I guess, if you really want to get rid of all of us, I can accept that as what you really think, although I would still wish it wouldn't be what you meant. I've seen some of your other posts, along similar lines and have wondered. Bobbie... yeah, coffee is good. As is some time for myself. Although joining in here has cut into some of that personal pet-the-dog time. Take care to you also. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 07 2009 at 1:05am
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missmisc such is life in a state which is heavily unionized vs one that is not. I worked for many years in a state in Public Safety where Unions are not a factor. All employees were basically the same, with minor differences. We all got the same raises, had the same Sick Leave, vacation time,same health care, some years the raises were better than others, but we all got the same raise. Threats of strike were non-existent. Police Officers got Court Pay etc. when they went to court, they got night differential for working nights, but that was basically the only differences. There was none of this us against them due to Unions. It worked out quite well for everyone concerned and no one complained outwardly about the system.
Most States in the South are Right to Work Sates which is where this was and most states in the Northeast and Midwest are Forced Unionism States.
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 07 2009 at 1:13am
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Missmisc I have dealt with many city employees from the city, from Public Works, to the Fire Dept,. the Police Dept., Administration, etc. in my business and I can say that all of them have been excellent when conducting business with me for the City. The only Dept. that drives me nuts downtown is the Tax Dept. we bump heads every year over something........nature of the business.........taxes.
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Posted By: missmisc
Date Posted: Nov 07 2009 at 8:43pm
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pacman, So some of my frustration is because of the particular region of the country that I'm in? That's interesting. I wouldn't have known that. Is that connected to the heavy unionized car manufacturing industry that used to be in Dayton, up in Michigan, or also the coal mining states? The term you used, Forced Union States.. does that mean many jobs or types or jobs are only available as a union member? Whereas, in another state, being Right to Work, that same job would not be union?
What starts a state on one of those paths? |
Posted By: missmisc
Date Posted: Nov 07 2009 at 9:21pm
| Pacman your experience sounds so much better than what we have here. It must have been nice. It's nice to know that there's another way out there. I wish we could get there. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 08 2009 at 7:54am
Right to Work law:Right-to-work laws forbid unions and employers to enter into agreements requiring employees to join a union and pay dues and fees to it in order to get or keep a job. Twenty-one states, mostly in the South and West, have right-to-work laws. The ability of states to pass right-to-work laws was authorized by the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947, also known as the labor management relations act (29 U.S.C.A. § 141 et seq.). Taft-Hartley, which sought to curtail union power in the workplace, amended the National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) of 1935 (29 U.S.C.A. § 151 et seq.). The NLRA as first passed preempted state regulation of labor relations in interstate commerce, with the goal of developing a national http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Labor+Law - Labor Law . Taft-Hartley departed from this goal in section 14(b) (29 U.S.C.A. § 164), expressly authorizing the states to adopt right-to-work measures. Organized labor has tried repeatedly, without success, to secure the repeal of section 14(b). The Federal Railway Labor Act (45 U.S.C.A. § 151 et seq.) prevents the application of state right-to-work laws to the railroad and airline industries. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 08 2009 at 8:10am
4117.14 Settlement of dispute between exclusive representative and public employer - procedures.(A) The procedures contained in this section govern the settlement of disputes between an exclusive representative and a public employer concerning the termination or modification of an existing collective bargaining agreement or negotiation of a successor agreement, or the negotiation of an initial collective bargaining agreement. (B)(1) In those cases where there exists a collective bargaining agreement, any public employer or exclusive representative desiring to terminate, modify, or negotiate a successor collective bargaining agreement shall: (a) Serve written notice upon the other party of the proposed termination, modification, or successor agreement. The party must serve the notice not less than sixty days prior to the expiration date of the existing agreement or, in the event the existing collective bargaining agreement does not contain an expiration date, not less than sixty days prior to the time it is proposed to make the termination or modifications or to make effective a successor agreement. (b) Offer to bargain collectively with the other party for the purpose of modifying or terminating any existing agreement or negotiating a successor agreement; (c) Notify the state employment relations board of the offer by serving upon the board a copy of the written notice to the other party and a copy of the existing collective bargaining agreement. (2) In the case of initial negotiations between a public employer and an exclusive representative, where a collective bargaining agreement has not been in effect between the parties, any party may serve notice upon the board and the other party setting forth the names and addresses of the parties and offering to meet, for a period of ninety days, with the other party for the purpose of negotiating a collective bargaining agreement. If the settlement procedures specified in divisions (B), (C), and (D) of this section govern the parties, where those procedures refer to the expiration of a collective bargaining agreement, it means the expiration of the sixty-day period to negotiate a collective bargaining agreement referred to in this subdivision, or in the case of initial negotiations, it means the ninety day period referred to in this subdivision. (3) The parties shall continue in full force and effect all the terms and conditions of any existing collective bargaining agreement, without resort to strike or lock-out, for a period of sixty days after the party gives notice or until the expiration date of the collective bargaining agreement, whichever occurs later, or for a period of ninety days where applicable. (4) Upon receipt of the notice, the parties shall enter into collective bargaining. (C) In the event the parties are unable to reach an agreement, they may submit, at any time prior to forty-five days before the expiration date of the collective bargaining agreement, the issues in dispute to any mutually agreed upon dispute settlement procedure which supersedes the procedures contained in this section. (1) The procedures may include: (a) Conventional arbitration of all unsettled issues; (b) Arbitration confined to a choice between the last offer of each party to the agreement as a single package; (c) Arbitration confined to a choice of the last offer of each party to the agreement on each issue submitted; (d) The procedures described in division (C)(1)(a), (b), or (c) of this section and including among the choices for the arbitrator, the recommendations of the fact finder, if there are recommendations, either as a single package or on each issue submitted; (e) Settlement by a citizens’ conciliation council composed of three residents within the jurisdiction of the public employer. The public employer shall select one member and the exclusive representative shall select one member. The two members selected shall select the third member who shall chair the council. If the two members cannot agree upon a third member within five days after their appointments, the board shall appoint the third member. Once appointed, the council shall make a final settlement of the issues submitted to it pursuant to division (G) of this section. (f) Any other dispute settlement procedure mutually agreed to by the parties. (2) If, fifty days before the expiration date of the collective bargaining agreement, the parties are unable to reach an agreement, any party may request the state employment relations board to intervene. The request shall set forth the names and addresses of the parties, the issues involved, and, if applicable, the expiration date of any agreement. The board shall intervene and investigate the dispute to determine whether the parties have engaged in collective bargaining. If an impasse exists or forty-five days before the expiration date of the collective bargaining agreement if one exists, the board shall appoint a mediator to assist the parties in the collective bargaining process. (3) Any time after the appointment of a mediator, either party may request the appointment of a fact-finding panel. Within fifteen days after receipt of a request for a fact-finding panel, the board shall appoint a fact-finding panel of not more than three members who have been selected by the parties in accordance with rules established by the board, from a list of qualified persons maintained by the board. (a) The fact-finding panel shall, in accordance with rules and procedures established by the board that include the regulation of costs and expenses of fact-finding, gather facts and make recommendations for the resolution of the matter. The board shall by its rules require each party to specify in writing the unresolved issues and its position on each issue to the fact-finding panel. The fact-finding panel shall make final recommendations as to all the unresolved issues. (b) The board may continue mediation, order the parties to engage in collective bargaining until the expiration date of the agreement, or both. (4) The following guidelines apply to fact-finding: (a) The fact-finding panel may establish times and place of hearings which shall be, where feasible, in the jurisdiction of the state. (b) The fact-finding panel shall conduct the hearing pursuant to rules established by the board. (c) Upon request of the fact-finding panel, the board shall issue subpoenas for hearings conducted by the panel. (d) The fact-finding panel may administer oaths. (e) The board shall prescribe guidelines for the fact-finding panel to follow in making findings. In making its recommendations, the fact-finding panel shall take into consideration the factors listed in divisions (G)(7)(a) to (f) of this section. (f) The fact-finding panel may attempt mediation at any time during the fact-finding process. From the time of appointment until the fact-finding panel makes a final recommendation, it shall not discuss the recommendations for settlement of the dispute with parties other than the direct parties to the dispute. (5) The fact-finding panel, acting by a majority of its members, shall transmit its findings of fact and recommendations on the unresolved issues to the public employer and employee organization involved and to the board no later than fourteen days after the appointment of the fact-finding panel, unless the parties mutually agree to an extension. The parties shall share the cost of the fact-finding panel in a manner agreed to by the parties. (6)(a) Not later than seven days after the findings and recommendations are sent, the legislative body, by a three-fifths vote of its total membership, and in the case of the public employee organization, the membership, by a three-fifths vote of the total membership, may reject the recommendations; if neither rejects the recommendations, the recommendations shall be deemed agreed upon as the final resolution of the issues submitted and a collective bargaining agreement shall be executed between the parties, including the fact-finding panel’s recommendations, except as otherwise modified by the parties by mutual agreement. If either the legislative body or the public employee organization rejects the recommendations, the board shall publicize the findings of fact and recommendations of the fact-finding panel. The board shall adopt rules governing the procedures and methods for public employees to vote on the recommendations of the fact-finding panel. (b) As used in division (C)(6)(a) of this section, “legislative body” means the controlling board when the state or any of its agencies, authorities, commissions, boards, or other branch of public employment is party to the fact-finding process. (D) If the parties are unable to reach agreement within seven days after the publication of findings and recommendations from the fact-finding panel or the collective bargaining agreement, if one exists, has expired, then the: (1) Public employees, who are members of a police or fire department, members of the state highway patrol, deputy sheriffs, dispatchers employed by a police, fire or sheriff’s department or the state highway patrol or civilian dispatchers employed by a public employer other than a police, fire, or sheriff’s department to dispatch police, fire, sheriff’s department, or emergency medical or rescue personnel and units, an exclusive nurse’s unit, employees of the state school for the deaf or the state school for the blind, employees of any public employee retirement system, corrections officers, guards at penal or mental institutions, special police officers appointed in accordance with sections 5119.14 and 5123.13 of the Revised Code, psychiatric attendants employed at mental health forensic facilities, youth leaders employed at juvenile correctional facilities, or members of a law enforcement security force that is established and maintained exclusively by a board of county commissioners and whose members are employed by that board, shall submit the matter to a final offer settlement procedure pursuant to a board order issued forthwith to the parties to settle by a conciliator selected by the parties. The parties shall request from the board a list of five qualified conciliators and the parties shall select a single conciliator from the list by alternate striking of names. If the parties cannot agree upon a conciliator within five days after the board order, the board shall on the sixth day after its order appoint a conciliator from a list of qualified persons maintained by the board or shall request a list of qualified conciliators from the American arbitration association and appoint therefrom. (2) Public employees other than those listed in division (D)(1) of this section have the right to strike under Chapter 4117. of the Revised Code provided that the employee organization representing the employees has given a ten-day prior written notice of an intent to strike to the public employer and to the board, and further provided that the strike is for full, consecutive work days and the beginning date of the strike is at least ten work days after the ending date of the most recent prior strike involving the same bargaining unit; however, the board, at its discretion, may attempt mediation at any time. (E) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the parties, at any time, from voluntarily agreeing to submit any or all of the issues in dispute to any other alternative dispute settlement procedure. An agreement or statutory requirement to arbitrate or to settle a dispute pursuant to a final offer settlement procedure and the award issued in accordance with the agreement or statutory requirement is enforceable in the same manner as specified in division (B) of section 4117.09 of the Revised Code. (F) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit a party from seeking enforcement of a collective bargaining agreement or a conciliator’s award as specified in division (B) of section 4117.09 of the Revised Code. (G) The following guidelines apply to final offer settlement proceedings under division (D)(1) of this section: (1) The parties shall submit to final offer settlement those issues that are subject to collective bargaining as provided by section 4117.08 of the Revised Code and upon which the parties have not reached agreement and other matters mutually agreed to by the public employer and the exclusive representative; except that the conciliator may attempt mediation at any time. (2) The conciliator shall hold a hearing within thirty days of the board’s order to submit to a final offer settlement procedure, or as soon thereafter as is practicable. (3) The conciliator shall conduct the hearing pursuant to rules developed by the board. The conciliator shall establish the hearing time and place, but it shall be, where feasible, within the jurisdiction of the state. Not later than five calendar days before the hearing, each of the parties shall submit to the conciliator, to the opposing party, and to the board, a written report summarizing the unresolved issues, the party’s final offer as to the issues, and the rationale for that position. (4) Upon the request by the conciliator, the board shall issue subpoenas for the hearing. (5) The conciliator may administer oaths. (6) The conciliator shall hear testimony from the parties and provide for a written record to be made of all statements at the hearing. The board shall submit for inclusion in the record and for consideration by the conciliator the written report and recommendation of the fact-finders. (7) After hearing, the conciliator shall resolve the dispute between the parties by selecting, on an issue-by-issue basis, from between each of the party’s final settlement offers, taking into consideration the following: (a) Past collectively bargained agreements, if any, between the parties; (b) Comparison of the issues submitted to final offer settlement relative to the employees in the bargaining unit involved with those issues related to other public and private employees doing comparable work, giving consideration to factors peculiar to the area and classification involved; (c) The interests and welfare of the public, the ability of the public employer to finance and administer the issues proposed, and the effect of the adjustments on the normal standard of public service; (d) The lawful authority of the public employer; (e) The stipulations of the parties; (f) Such other factors, not confined to those listed in this section, which are normally or traditionally taken into consideration in the determination of the issues submitted to final offer settlement through voluntary collective bargaining, mediation, fact-finding, or other impasse resolution procedures in the public service or in private employment. (8) Final offer settlement awards made under Chapter 4117. of the Revised Code are subject to Chapter 2711. of the Revised Code. (9) If more than one conciliator is used, the determination must be by majority vote. (10) The conciliator shall make written findings of fact and promulgate a written opinion and order upon the issues presented to the conciliator, and upon the record made before the conciliator and shall mail or otherwise deliver a true copy thereof to the parties and the board. (11) Increases in rates of compensation and other matters with cost implications awarded by the conciliator may be effective only at the start of the fiscal year next commencing after the date of the final offer settlement award; provided that if a new fiscal year has commenced since the issuance of the board order to submit to a final offer settlement procedure, the awarded increases may be retroactive to the commencement of the new fiscal year. The parties may, at any time, amend or modify a conciliator’s award or order by mutual agreement. (12) The parties shall bear equally the cost of the final offer settlement procedure. (13) Conciliators appointed pursuant to this section shall be residents of the state. (H) All final offer settlement awards and orders of the conciliator made pursuant to Chapter 4117. of the Revised Code are subject to review by the court of common pleas having jurisdiction over the public employer as provided in Chapter 2711. of the Revised Code. If the public employer is located in more than one court of common pleas district, the court of common pleas in which the principal office of the chief executive is located has jurisdiction. (I) The issuance of a final offer settlement award constitutes a binding mandate to the public employer and the exclusive representative to take whatever actions are necessary to implement the award. Effective Date: 06-26-2003; 01-27-2005; 2008 HB562 09-23-2008 |
Posted By: missmisc
Date Posted: Nov 10 2009 at 11:27pm
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Pacman,
Thanks for the info. I didn't read it real thoroughly, mostly skimmed. I did see what you highlighted though, and it looks like the union control or activity is pretty well legislated into the system. Looks like this subject thread is losing steam. No other responses to my last longer write. |
Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Nov 11 2009 at 6:23am
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I would straighten out all you Union haters, but itt would do just as much good as telling a Muslim suicide Bomber that He would NOT be greeted by 72 Virgins after killing himself and a bunch of evil non-believers. Certain Heads are just too thick! I do want to remind some that keep referencing jobs they have had that was so good without a Union, you might consider what that job would be like if NOT for the threat of a Union coming in. Many Employers treat People decent for purposes of keeping the Union out! Praise Allah! |
Posted By: gemneye70
Date Posted: Nov 11 2009 at 7:10am
| No one should question the dedication of our firefighters...they can't be putting out fires all of the time. If they have some down time, they can do whatever they want...when they get a call they put their lives on the line to save your arse. Unless you have been there, shut it. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 11 2009 at 7:26am
Another wonderful post by Lrisner who can't have a conversation without the insults and name calling, which does nothing but diminish his position on anything.
Lrisner I have no problem if City Public Safety is Unionized. I don't agree with Ohio's law on how their contracts are negotiated with forced Conciliation which allows one side to just sit there and say Nope, Nope, Nope, lets go to conciliation. Conciliation should not be used as a club but as a last resort. The Union system has gone from being a system to protect workers to being an adversarial system, which is many cases no one wins. Just look at the AK Lockout, good example of what happens when two organizations bump heads and no one wants to give. Many jobs lost, a city is financially hurt, innocent businesses suffer, workers lose their homes and families breakup and for what in the end.
You are right I don't care for Unions, but in Ohio you folks seem to think you can't live without them so we must deal with the good and the bad.
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Posted By: taxed2death
Date Posted: Nov 11 2009 at 2:22pm
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I belive Unions all have there places and do more good then bad. What happened to AK was horrible
and sorry to have seen it go that way. When a city and union cant agree on something then yes a third party helps make the decision. And its not always the unions saying nope nope nope lets see what we get with going to conciliation because its not always a good out come for both the city and the union.
Just my 2 cents. ------------- I hope it gets better soon! |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 11 2009 at 2:49pm
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Taxed2death if the conciliation was not mandatory as it is in Ohio that would be one thing. Many cities feel that Unions pile on demands because the matter will go to conciliation if they keep saying no. The problem is most of you only look at the matter from the employees viewpoint and not the cities. You can not continue to take in $19 million in Tax revenue and spend $20 Million on Public Safety, as Becker stated. The numbers don't work out. In this day and age of uncertainty having 3 year contracts with 3% a year raises is a bad deal for the City and its taxpayers when an economic catastrophe hits as it has now.
It is not a matter of do the employees deserve the money it is a matter of can the city and taxpayers afford it. Currently the answer is no they can't.
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Posted By: taxed2death
Date Posted: Nov 11 2009 at 3:37pm
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May I ask you a question Pacman what is more important to keep a city above water in hard times when it comes to money spent by a city? Parks or streets? a public golf course or police and firemen? A free clinic for health care? Revitalization of down town or dispatchers for 911? The reseason I ask this is has the city really cut all the fat in the city before cutting what helps keep the taxpayers safe and what is really the core of what keeps a city alive untill it finally gets businesses and jobs back into its city? I dont think anyone person is more important then the next we are all equal but I think there are somethings the city can due with out before it cuts the public saftey and streets dept (not sure if thats what there title is or not but i am sure you get the general idea). And I also think in an early post by ashkicker they where willing to make cuts to save the money just not in wages and the city ignored them. Sorry some of the above is off topic I was just wondering about your thoughts on it. ------------- I hope it gets better soon! |
Posted By: missmisc
Date Posted: Nov 15 2009 at 10:14pm
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Taxed, the idea of how much fat the city should cut is pretty subjective in some ways. We have let go of the person who ran the parks programs, and you could say ok, so that's recreational. I think it also included a lot of grant money that won't come to the city now that that person will be gone. And I don't really know what the grant money went for, but I do know it was for programs that didn't have to be paid for from our taxes.
We have let go of the person who ran the city building's heating/cooling system. Anyone who doesn't work in the city building probably won't care. We will though when things get too cold in the winter or too hot in the summer and no one knows how to work the system. And what will it cost to get someone in here on contract for what hourly rate? We have let go of the 2 building department inspectors - one an electrical inspector, the other a general building quality inspector. They could easily be hired partime out of Butler County's inspection department. But will the quality of Middletown get worse as people, contractors, developers etc. realize they can do more of what they want/when they want, and not be as easily checked on? Marconi was doing just that even while he was on Council. And he wondered why he didn't get re-elected. Your concern, Taxed and others, about what's being spent by the city is being catered to and fed by most of the past council. They are politicians, and anytime a politician can get more support and votes by telling the constituents what they want to hear, they will. In this case, Middletown's people kept wanting to hear that the city is financially irresponsible, so, that's what council kept saying. They kept saying, let's go back and rethink, or do another study, or look at other options. What they don't tell you, the constituent or reader or voter, is that those studies and options had been done many times over in previous years, and had been presented to the city manager not just this year, but in previous years, and also to council in various forms already. So, why did they play innocent, and want to think about it some more, unless it wasn't the answer they wanted to hear. What they did was say.. ok, city manager, go back and do it differently. Define different...did it mean "give me the answer that I want to hear". You guys on this website are pretty watchful and intelligent, although your viewpoints are often different. I would ask that you be just as suspicious of getting fed the lines that support your way of thinking, as you are supportive of hearing news and information you already agree with, although may not be true. I saw in today's paper that even the Journal commented on council's approach to the city budget in their editorial page. The editorial pinned the waffling on Marconi and Schiavone. They are both leaving and it might have been an act of spite and nose-thumbing to not be a responsible council member and finish the job they started. Sort of a mean-spirited "leave it to the new-comers if they think they can do such a better job...they'll see". Or, maybe they really think they did the right thing. Whose benefit was their decision for? It has, at the least, kept the anger up in people who do think the city needs to cut more, but did nothing to add any truth and trust to anyone. Pacman, how would having unionized public safety work without the conciliation process? I confess to not understanding it very well. |
Posted By: taxed2death
Date Posted: Nov 16 2009 at 7:21am
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Missmisc I do agree with you that the politicians will say what they think you want to hear' and yes people have a habit of when they hear what they want its all good and don't think of a second that it could all be smoke up there shorts. But what I was asking was whats more important to a city to stay above water?
And yes you will not be getting grant money for the parks because that person is now gone, but how much money( from the city) was used along with the grant money to keep up what that project was doing. I know with some grants you have to have a percentage of that grant money to begin with to show you can suport what it is you are trying to do with that grant you are going after. I do understang that using part time people to do a job quality sometimes drops all I can say is that someone who is in the building dept (or what dept they where part of I am not sure how its set up) needs to take it upon themself to help keep an eye on them and make sure they are doing what they need to do. Again I dont think one person is more important then another we are all human and all have familys to suport just asking question. But I do agree with you Missmisc that when a person or group hears what they want its rock solid there is no way that politician would be saying what I want to hear to shut me/group up. ------------- I hope it gets better soon! |
Posted By: ashkicker
Date Posted: Nov 22 2009 at 8:15pm
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Missmisc, Sorry I didn't get back with your answers sooner. Here are the numbers for top paid fire fighter salaries. Contract from 01/01/97 to 12/31/99
Contract from 01/01/00 to 12/31/02
Contract from 01/01/03 to 12/31/05 (Reopener for 2005 - Extended contract to 12/31/06)
Contract from 01/01/07 to 06/30/08
Contract from 01/01/09 to 12/31/11 (Contract covered retroactive to 07/01/08
Now for run numbers -- In 2007, we made approximately 8929 runs. 7571 of those runs were EMS runs, the remainder were fire and service call runs. That amounts to 24.5 runs per day
In 2008, we made approximately 10076 runs. 7807 of those runs were EMS runs, the remainder were fire and service call runs. That amounts to 27.5 runs per day.
So far in 2009, we had made approximately 9056 runs. I do not have the breakdown between EMS and fire calls. That amounts to 28 runs per day.
I hope you find this information satisfactory. Please let me know if there is any other questions I can answer.
ashkicker
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Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Nov 23 2009 at 3:28am
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From the MiddletownJournal:
"City Manager Judy Gilleland said staff originally had anticipated bringing in $17.5 million over the course of the year, but were forced to drop the bar to $16.5 million when revenues started to come in lower than expected. October reports show the city collecting around $13.8 million year-to-date.
“At this point we’re unable to determine any sort of trend,” Gilleland said. “It’s very possible that we will wind up another half-million dollars less than our revised projections.” Income Tax Superintendent Sandra Mueller said revenues took a hit due to the increasing number of unemployed residents and decreasing revenues from area businesses. Mueller said she is hoping November and December numbers are closer to those seen in 2008, closing the gap growing gap between estimated and actual collections." |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 23 2009 at 7:09am
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Let's see-
If you increase the number of unemployed in town you collect less revenue because they are not working. If you offer less jobs in town to employ those people you collect less revenue because you don't offer any place for the residents to work. They must find a decent paying job out-of-town. If you sit and watch company after company leave town, you probably have an indication that your income tax revenue is going with them. If you have less people with discretionary income, they spend less in the local stores, decreasing revenue for the stores as you watch them close the doors due to a lack of customers. If you sit on your behind for years and don't expect your economic development directors (both Murphy and Robinette) to bring jobs into the city, as you watch those companies mentioned earlier leave, you will never reach your income generating goals to run the city. However- if you get off your ---, and you have an agggressive, take no prisoners type of job generating program, and make jobs priority number one in this city, you just may start creating a climate where you can attract decent companies that will provide some payroll taxes for your little city, thereby meeting your stated revenue goals.(and, perhaps, increasing the city's population) It ain't rocket science Judith. You just need to have your people make a real effort instead of bringing in a few "Paycheks" and hospital type jobs and calling it quits for the year. It is an on-going job that requires constant attention by investigating/compiling lists of relocating companies around the country, mailing literature to all companies that the city has targeting for attraction, placing calls to companies interested in relocation and follow-ups that assure interest in those companies. Get 'em in here and make 'em an offer they can't refuse. It beats empty buildings, no job opportunities for the citizens and no income revenue for the city, doesn't it? |
Posted By: Marianne
Date Posted: Nov 23 2009 at 9:18am
This seems a lot easier said (on a blog) than done, and I don't see anything concrete here in your remarks. "take no prisoners" "make 'em an offer they can't refuse" ... is this economic development via bastardized film quotes? |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 23 2009 at 10:29am
| Marianne- the intention of the post was a generalized theme of covering all the bases to attract as many relocating company candidates as possible to our town. It was written in a general context with the theme of asking if we are doing all we could do to attract new jobs. What we are currently doing is not sufficient to maintain employment in this town. I never claimed to be the grand wizard of economic development and am encouraging the powers that be to make a better effort in their attempts. To clarify- "take no prisoners" can be interpreted to mean- put forth the maximum effort and leave no stone unturned in your efforts to attract jobs, while "make 'em an offer they can't refuse" could mean to tell them of the breaks they could get through taxes, land development and facilities versus other communities if they located here and make it very appealing. Why are you taking these "film quotes", as you say, so literally? Have you never heard of making a point through using jargon or slang that would be commonly known to most people? If what I have written here is not "concrete" in your world, perhaps I should ask you for your ideas for economic development that would qualify as "concrete". You're up next. |
Posted By: taxed2death
Date Posted: Nov 24 2009 at 5:02pm
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VietVet I would agree with you I dont think this city is doing what it takes to get anything into it. You look at Monroe and Franklin and they have had growth where Middletown has moved backwards. Who should be to blame for this in the city building? And why are they still employed! They really need to do just about anything to get good growth into this city! ------------- I hope it gets better soon! |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 24 2009 at 5:42pm
If you owned a company that needed 500 employees would you come to Middletown with its terrible infrastructure, poor schools, crime rising, a city which can't even support the basics of retail, a city that has few if any amenities that new residents in the Middle to upper Middle Income look for. No you would go to Monroe or West Chester or Mason.
Middletown's City government is out of whack. They have tipped the scale to serving basically the poor with it's excessive Section, Public Housing, etc. They have taken the school system to the brink of disaster by catering to the poor and less fortunate. Now doing that is a limited sense is OK but you need to pay attention to the people that actually pay the taxes so you can afford to be reasonable in taking care of the poor. Middletown hasn't done that. They are basically destroying the city a little bit each year and just sitting in City hall throwing their hands up and seeing what sticks to the wall.
It is time the city started thinking outside of the box as to how to provide the services that are need. Sooner or later the Police and Fire will have to be cut as the city is doing absolutely nothing that will increase revenues in the short term to maintain the system they currently have.
Taxed exactly what would you like to cut that is left downtown? Cincy is getting ready to cut Police and Fire because they have backed themselves into a corner and Middletown has down the same thing to itself. it will be interesting to see what the Police Unions will do with the current Contract negotiations that are going on. If they come out with 3-4% raises for the next 3 yrs. look for layoffs to follow. The city can not maintain its current rate of spending without growing it's tax revenue. Are you ready to vote for a .5-.75 tax increase, taxed2death? I am not.
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Posted By: transplant
Date Posted: Nov 24 2009 at 6:49pm
| taxed2death, i agree that it is frustrating to watch the growth & success of other area cities like monroe, franklin, springboro and others but is it fair to compare middletown to these? middletown and franklin are similar in that both were developed many years ago but monroe and springboro were not and had a lot of green area to grow. |
Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Nov 24 2009 at 7:16pm
At least some on here get it. Others just whine about EVERYTHING! |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 25 2009 at 7:01am
Transplant probably a better comparison is Middletown to Hamilton, rather than Franklin. No one is expecting a West Chester or Mason to rise out of the City of Middletown. But many of us were not expecting to become the Poverty zone of Butler County either.
Lrisner you are right you sure do complain a lot, aren't you leaving Middletown for Hot and Humid Florida. Try the Miami area you'll fit right in, don't forget to bone up on your spanish.
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 25 2009 at 9:55am
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That's correct Transplant- Monroe and Springboro were just corn fields years ago and now have alot of land available for development. But, Middletown is not in the same position as Monroe and Springboro and because of that, a comparison can't be made between the cities. This is all a very valid argument for this discussion. You are right up to this point.
Now that we have discussed and agree that a comparison can't be made, the topic and focus must now turn to Middletown's predicament only. You all already know this, but let's talk about it again. Middletown, because of it's past industrial theme, has little greenspace "farmland" to develop. It must rely on cleaning up former industrial brownfield sites and converting them into (Marconi's favorite saying) "shovel-ready sites. The $64,000 question here is- what has the past/present economic development department, city council, city manager and all others involved, done since the paper mills left YEARS AGO, Black Clawson left several YEARS AGO in 2002, Aeronca shut down YEARS AGO, Square D left for Oxford YEARS AGO, a packaging company (Corson ?) left YEARS AGO, Armco-(AK) started downsizing YEARS AGO in the 70's.--See the common denominator here- YEARS AGO........ my post wasn't making a comparison between Middletown and surrounding communities- it was asking what the MIDDLETOWN econ. development department was doing ALL THESE YEARS in getting these brownfields cleaned up, luring companies to town, and making some type of measureable attempt at creating some decent employment for the people in this town.(and generating revenue) Seems to be progressing at a snail's pace to me and I ask why no urgency and if they were doing ALL THEY COULD to create jobs for those willing to work and who want to prosper. |
Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Nov 25 2009 at 12:56pm
The only complaining I do is in response to "no thought" comments from People like yourself who blame everyone in the World but themselves for everything under the Sun that they see wrong. I think it is just rooted in selfishness and childishness. |
Posted By: taxed2death
Date Posted: Nov 25 2009 at 1:47pm
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Vet I am not saying I want ED eliminated from the city but put someone in there that will produce for the city. I agree that at some point in time sooner then later yes police and fire are going to have to take a cut if this city doesn't stop slidding backwards. Not for one second do I think that public saftey is a sacred lamb and shouldn't be touched. No I am not in favor of more taxes but if thats what I have to do to keep my family and property safe then I will vote for it but I hope it doesn't come to that. I also think that the city can cut in areas before they cut public saftey and whats left of the street dept/maintenance. I think those jobs are little more important then say a public golf course or say swimming pool or some one in the city building to have secretary when they are trying to keep there head above water having just the basics of what a city needs. But thats just my opinion and we all have are own and I enjoy reading all of yours on here at times it does help me stop and look at things in a diffrent light. I am not expecting a westchester either but sure would be nice if that would happen. I would expect that the city be able to see that there are people in that city building that have been there for awhile and become stagnant and none productive and need to go! Again just my opinion I wish I had the answer to fix these problems as well. ------------- I hope it gets better soon! |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Nov 25 2009 at 4:48pm
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PART of the problem IS that some of the folks at City Hall (and those that pull their strings) DO expect a "West Chester" at our I-75 interchange as well as a "Lebanon" downtown. In the process, we are getting the WORST aspects of each. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Nov 25 2009 at 5:40pm
Ah another typical Lrisner post no contribution to the discussion just hatred and name calling.....typical Lrisner. Fortunately Lrisner I haven't lived in Middltown long enough to be a contributor to the mess you have help create.
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