What can we do?
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown Community
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URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2655
Printed Date: May 14 2024 at 10:47pm
Topic: What can we do?
Posted By: randy
Subject: What can we do?
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 12:55pm
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Like many of you I was born here and have spent the majority of my life here. It’s sad to see this city go the way it has gone and continues to go. I remember when I was younger going to see my dad over at Miami Packaging (were we worked and retired form) and the area was full of cars and the downtown was nice. I remember when we lived over on Wilbraham road behind what was Mom’s Minute Market, and the neighborhood was middle class and really very nice. I drive these streets a lot every day, there is not one part of this town I have not been in. All the good and decent neighborhoods from back then are gone, replaced with low income and section 8. I, unlike most don’t have the (what’s the word) distain for section 8 as some do. I do believe with out a doubt that we have way too much. And I have seen no plan to reduce it, as of yet. But what bothers me is the condition of the neighborhoods and the streets in our town. I personal wouldn’t care if 10,000 people were on section 8 if they keep good up keep on the property and were doing what they could to better themselves. But, we all know that this is not the case, most in the program see it as a free ride. And why shouldn’t they? That’s what our city has turned it in to. I along with all of you have paid taxes in this city since I was old enough to work (16) and what do we get for our troubles….to drive on broken streets past boarded up buildings and watch businesses flee daily. I ask you all what can we do about it? What we have been doing has not worked, no one is listening and if they are they don’t care. It’s time for a new approach to changing our city. ------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Replies:
Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 2:39pm
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Section 8 didn't destroy Middletown, it is just a symptom of the larger issue. What killed Middletown? The same thing that almost destroyed the Economy! That is unrestrained Capitalism and the Free Market! Not to say that they are bad things, not at all. However, uncontrolled, they are bad. Our culture is seeing the result. I remember People crying "Wolf" (that's what I thought) about unrestrained Development and I agreed with the Conventional Wisdom, that they were Idiots. Now, in hind sight, they were not entirely wrong. It is the same all over the Country, Cities dying while the Suburbs are all bright, shiny, and new. Some commonsense should have been used to administrate some reasonable Limits to Development. Look right here in Butler County, we have massive Development outside of Hamilton and Middletown, while the old Cities themselves are rotting. What if we had been a little more conservative in approving all the Development. Would the Cities still be as bad as they are now? A lot of this Board will say Yes, because "the scum would have still been here", referring to the Low Income People. But the truth is that easy. How much Cash was made with all this Development and where is it now? It certainly is not in our Cities! The only Cash there now is HUD money. What did we gain by going for the quick Buck at the expense of the Cities? We probably will spend just as much in Subsidies and HUD cash to keep the Cities from becoming Ghettos as we gained by OKing all the development for the money it made us then. No easy answer to your question. It ceratinly can't all be the fault of Section 8 People or even the Artys Folks now on the Scene. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 3:55pm
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Randy you need to get a better understanding of what Section 8, in particular an excessive amount of Section 8 and poverty do to a city financially. It is not disdain for Section 8 nor the people on it. It is simply an economic fact that excessive Section 8 when 75% of the people on Section 8 must make 30% or less of the median income for the area can not and don't' support a city economically.
They do not have disposable income to support local businesses, they pay little or no taxes, they use up Public Services far beyond what they contribute. A reasonable amount of Section 8 400-500 Vouchers is not an issue. When you have 1 voucher for every 29 residents that is a problem economically for everyone in the city. This has been said over and over on this board. I personally believe that Middletown will see itself above 25% in the 2010 census for a poverty level. This is not good for the poor, the middle class or the upper class. This does not help to attract new businesses to Middletown, which bring jobs and revenue to the city. Why come here with all of the negatives when you can go 5 miles in either direction and find:
Good Schools
Retail and Services Amenities of all kinds
Lower Crime
Infrastructure that is maintained
Better Housing Stock than excessive old Steel Mill housing
Leadership that is in tune with it's citizens and what it takes to grow a community
Randy you can not run a City by catering solely and constantly to its poorest citizens on a level that Middletown continues to do. The people footing the bill leave and you are left holding a mess of Poverty, run down communities, high crime, poorly educated citizens, no jobs and the situation continues to get worse for everyone in the city.
Excessive Section 8 does not help even the people on Section 8 in Middletown. There are not enough living wage jobs here anymore. Many on Section 8 are restricted in their ability to travel to places where they can get a job that would pay a living wage. You are not doing anyone any good by having an excessive amount of Section 8 in Middletown.
The city has deteriorated to the point where the Socioeconomic balance has swung to nearly the point of no return and City Council and the City Admin continually saying they want to work on restoring it and actually doing nothing each year doesn't help, but hey we get lead stories about Council and they now want a dog park. Can we cay that the priorities of this city are severally out of kilter?
Randy you will always have Section 8 and Poverty. The problem comes in when you have to much of it in one area and you begin to drive out the residents who actually pay the taxes that the city runs on. You run out the residents that have disposable income to support local businesses. You have a school system that has 70% of it's kids on reduced lunch, with poor performing scores and the residents that have the means move their children elsewhere which only exacerbates the school problem.
The city has not kept up with the times. It can't maintain it's infrastructure unless they get funds from outside sources. They have relied on HUD funding from Section 8 to supplement the salaries of a significant number of employees. It must layoff it's non union workers just to maintain its union workers and what little services it provides. The city is on the verge of failure with the course it has taken over the last 5-10 years. If it does not wake up and change course to restore the Socioeconomic balance to the city, the city will implode on itself and the state will end up taking it over.
Randy you and many others think that that if someone speaks out against excessive Section 8 or the poor that they loathe them or have disdain for them. It has nothing to do with disdain for Section 8 or the people on it or those living in poverty but everything to do with the economics of what has happened in Middletown.
I own a service business in Middletown for the last 6 years and I have seen in that short period of time what a socioeconomic imbalance has done to the Service and Retail businesses in Middletown and the City.
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Posted By: Nelson R. Self
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 4:30pm
Pacman ................ 
I'd also like for you to consider ........ 1) the negative impact of certain arrogant, we-know-it-all senior City staff who lack "PROVEN EXPERTISE" in successful non-bureaucratic revitalization strategies for declining communities like Middletown; 2) the refusal of these inexperienced senior City staff to again "MEANINGFULLY INVOLVE" knowledgable private sector small business owners, real estate professionals, commercial and residential lenders, etc.; 3) and to properly respect the principles of "CITIZENS PARTICIPATION" via transparent and accountable governance.
The bigger question is, "Are certain senior City staff appropriate for a community like Middletown at this crucial time with its' multiple problems?"
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 5:30pm
| Amen, Pacman |
Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 5:37pm
Excellent Pacman, could not have said it any better! Sad for once was a great community. 
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Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 5:49pm
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See you know whats funny I asked a simple question WHAT CAN WE DO!! no one answers that. Instead you point out what we all already know. Middletown has too much Section 8. I think that is pretty damn apparent.
I believe disdain is in fact the proper word. Example: any topic made on here always turns to section 8 or city council. I could come on here say I just saw a unicorn and some would ask if it was on section 8. Maybe I dont know all I should about the subject. But what I do is I grew up here went to school here and I have watched the town fall apart.
I have also realized that just sitting here talking about doesn't work, so again what can we do?? we have 1,600 vouchers they are not going away face it they are here and probable here to stay. so until people have truly had enough and stand up to those doing it to us we will continue to go the way we are going.
I love this forum thinks its the best thing in Middletown, but it takes more than blogging to make some changes.
------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 5:52pm
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And yes people what Pacman says is true and said very well. But until someone shows up at the section 8 meeting and stands up when they ask for comments it is all pointless.
------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 6:56pm
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While I understand your post Randy, I believe to take shots at individiuals on section 8 is simply wrong and inaccurate. I live in one of the nicest areas in Middletown, and have neighbors with advanced degrees (doctorates) who have christmas trees taken out from the holiday, sticking in a backyard, and paint peeling, just like those fined for the "eyesore" they cause.
I know one family in section 8 now, that the wife was a former Delta airlines stewardess for 20 years whose husband was a plant manager. She developed a chronic illness, it depleted their income, and they both lost their jobs. They are exteremely considerate and certainly above middle class. They maintain their property impeccably; I add, its the slumlords who don't take care of their property, not the resident.
I further add, I have hired some of the hardest and most intelligent "generalists" who live in section 8 who are willing to do anything for an extra $20.00. Great mechanics who gladly come to your home, work hours, and can do work on any foreigh car, and have a great work ethic. You don't understand...there are no jobs in Middletown! Those that are, very few, are given to the nepotism at city hall, or others, a friend of a friend.
I jave a good friend whose daughter applied for an Executive Position at the new Inn at the Renaissance, that has a business degree from a top liberal arts university and worked for several large Cincy law firms. She didn't even get an invite for an interview.
I think in hard times, its better not to criticize those in the shoes you aren't walking in. I know executives at GM, that lost huge bonuses. I have friends at IBM, who were fired when GM restructured, some with 30 years with the company.
This assailment on individuals on section 8 as the problem for all of Middletown's problems is wrong. You are taking the misproportion of section 8 and hitting many people who simply ran into hard times. That's not right in my opinion. Is there too much 8- apparently, as Middletown has about 75% of it, but to state those people are ignorant, don't care about an education, have no work ethic, and free load...well, I can tell you there are some that lived in neighboroods as fine as The Oaks or others in town, but worked in the private sector, and got hit with a downsize. Not everyone has tenure and lifetime employment like those in city hall, the library, and MUM.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 7:05pm
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Randy, to your point, there is nothing that immediately can be done to section 8 #'s. The city has a contract and set allocation, In time, apparently the city plans to reduce that. With a little reserach, it could be found who wons what, where, and if standards are being met ( maintaining the property), but one would assume that's what Doug Adkins does for a living. I understand one of the largest owners of 8 property is a police chief who retired from the Middletown force, who others have stated (I have no idea where his property is), other than around Jackson Lane, does little to maintain it. I don't think its going away soon, in terms of numbers. If you want property cleaned up, identify it, and I'm sure Mr. Adkins will be happy to fine he owner imo. |
Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 7:07pm
Randy, Until we get a Council that has a true passion for bring this town back, we will be stuck in the SOS. We thought that new blood would make a change, we were wrong. They answer to the oldtimers so not to ruffle feathers. They make statemenst like If I had more time to study the proposal maybe I would of voted differently. Its all a crock! We as the folks who were born and raised here need to make a stand in public! I remember the good old days, Ortman's buses, Murphy's at Christmas, a busy downtown, and of course, The All American City!. Those days are gone, never to be seen that way again. But we can be that again now. We need to make suggestions to council,,,no demand change. We as tax payers to the city and property owners, need to say enough is enough. Section needs to go! Kich CBL out of town and develope the Towne Mall area into medical research and a campus. Hell we have a new hospital and soon to be ne Veterans hospital. The downtowb area needs to be bulldozed. It to can be developed for education! In case the council has forgotten, Miami U is in town, and would probably jump at the opportunity to develope that area for education. We are not blue colla any more. Technology is our future. Dog S*** areas and doggies get acquanted areas aint gonna make Jimbo and AJ!! Lets have a meeting and dicuss a plan to tell the jachasses downtown we are fed up. ets give them these ideas and if they dont like we get rid of all of them! My property value has gone down $50,000! I am fed up!!!! here's some ideas Randy!
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 7:18pm
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Randy you brought up the Damn topic of Section 8 in your opening post. You also showed your complain lack of understanding on the impact of excessive Section 8 and poverty on a city such as Middletown, by stating you didn't care if there were 10000 Section 8 vouchers in Middletown. You are the one showing disdain for many of the Section 8 recipients by your comments above, not me or anyone else.
Randy if you don't understand the problem which it appears you don't as far as the financial ramifications of Poverty on a City in Middletown's financial state, then there is nothing you can do to solve the problem.
Since you appear to have some inside info that the rest of us don't and basically have made the statement that Section 8 is not going to be reduced under the current Council and Admin I would say you need to:
1) Start recall petitions for Armbruster and Becker and Mulligan or take your pick.
2) Find suitable replacement candidates for them now.
3) Start a letter writing campaign to have Gilleland replaced asap.
4) Start a citizens group to put forth an agenda which is going to take this city forward and enough of this treading water and doing nothing.
5) Put forth an initiative to bring back the infrastructure fund.
6) If there are any persons that are responsible for the Section 8 Mess left at city hall fire them.
7) Remove Kohler in what appears to be his sole voice on the direction the city is moving as far as business development is concerned..
8) Do away with many of the excessive committees which now over run the city.
9) Set forth a reasonable plan to deal with Section 8 and the poor in Middletown and act upon it .
10) Form a City and School Board liason to meet regulary other than the once a year 2 minute rush thru that they currently have, as it is obvious the problems of the city are intertwined with the Educational failure in Middletown Schhol system, the City just doesn't get it or doesn't care.
If you want more you know where to find me.
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Posted By: lrisner
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 7:23pm
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You got no answer Randy, because there is NO answer. Even if we get rid of all Sec 8, our problems will be no different. Pacman is right that the Poor don't add to the Tax, nor do they have money to support Local Business. If we ere to get rid of them, how would things change? Do any of us think that good, hard working Middle Class Families, that pay Taxes and support Business, would miraculously move into the former Sec 8 Rentals or buy them? I don't! The only thing that would happen is that the Crime would go down some, but we also would have even more Vacant Housing Stock. That is why my own Plan would be one of not returning to past spender, but merely one of Downsizing Gracefully. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 7:31pm
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The number of Section 8 vouchers can be set forth in the Administrative policy if I am not mistaken. The problem is getting the MPHA to act upon it. |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 7:39pm
Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 7:53pm
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Pacman, I have shown no disdain for any one on section 8 or struggling with low income,and if it came of that way it was not my intent. And I did bring up the topic of section 8, hell it's all people talk about. But I asked what could be done about it. My disdain comes for the condition of houses in town and the landlords not being held accountable.
I know many good people on section 8 and who are low income, hell I am low income. I made 13,000 last year. So dont talk to me like I dont live this everyday. I am not on section 8 but if I need it I would be. As for inside info, nope I dont have any. But I can read the writing on the wall. Hell I am more hated than anyone on this site by the city because I am the face that shows up and sends emails asking questions. Do you know something I dont about this council?? I dont see them making any great leaps to reduce the numbers.
My problem comes when everyone just complains and says how bad this city is but no one does anything to change it.
1) Start recall petitions for Armbruster and Becker and Mulligan or take your pick. little late for that dont yea think.
3) Start a letter writing campaign to have Gilleland replaced asap.
Thats a good one, but showing up in person might work better
4) Start a citizens group to put forth an agenda which is going to take this city forward and enough of this treading water and doing nothing.
Nick kidd did that once and no one came, imagine that.
6) If there are any persons that are responsible for the Section 8 Mess left at city hall fire them.
I agree
7) Remove Kohler in what appears to be his sole voice on the direction the city is moving as far as
business development is concerned..
Thats the best plan of all, but again no one is out raged enough yet. ------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 8:06pm
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acclaro, I dont think I took a shot at any one on section 8, and I didn't mean to if I did. I have no problem with the people on section 8. I do however have an issue with the way it is run. I do however have a problem with the way landlords are alllowed to function. I do have a problem with no one speaking up to those that have the ability to change it, SHOW UP.
I attended almost every city council meeting (yes I am paid, but that was not always the case) I sit there by my self away from everyone involved with the city. I am the enemy. I am the face of the crazy bloggers on MUSA (their words not mine) I sit and wait for someone to stand up at look at council and tell them what they say on here. But no one ever does. Well one guy use to.
And it never fails that the day after people have all these comments and ideas, but the wont stand up. I have offered to come get people that dont have a ride or stand next to them as they tell council their thoughts.
It gets old. I live in the hardest hit area, I live next door to people on section 8.... great people. People either need to show up and speek up, march down there and make them listen or be quite altogether.
------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 09 2010 at 11:38pm
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Randy, there is no one within city hall, managers, clerks, broom sweepers, to the legal staff, that anyone who voices an opinion on this site should feel inferior. It would be inappropriate to comment in this forum, but the degree of incompetence, lack of procedural follow through, and accountability is well known, and in every department, from the court to the manager through the water department, to economic development. And it is well lnown throughout other communities from attorneys whom practice law, to individuals who might come through to drive to Hamilton. Most call them insane and incompetent, so I wouldn't take offense nor give consideration to anyone in those quarters using the term "crazy." Their actions speak for themself as well as the damage remaining from their actions- company execs here 100 plus years bolt, hospital bolts, school bolts, commercial industy- bolts (look at all the commercial lease signs all over town. You want action and change? Better be speaking to the firm Dewey Cheatum and Howe. Randy, "wake up and smell the coffee". If you think city council or the school board is going to alter Middletown for the better, let me trade your gold for my plastic.
And why does Armbruster think Sunset would make a swell dog playground? Because there are these city ldrs and council folks completely lost in the wilderness- who actually think they have a plan to bring young residents into Middletown. You see, young hip professionals ride bikes, don't they, just like they do in Colorado or Oregon. So, they build a bike path. Then, young people like dogs, and get them a few years or more before having kids. Brilliant! We build a dog park, and they will come, the young, upscale, high tech, c++, database guru's, and nanotechnology geeks, coming to Middletown with their money, and we are on the path to glory! Startling as it may appear, that's reality as to why the bike path and the doggy play ground is the buzz now. Maybe they'll come up with a repelling rock simulation to scale the old Cinergy building. They are also putting in a rowing station on the river, as the young hipsters love to row at dawn just like they did when they were at Harvard on the Charles River on the Cambridge side, and a sailboat harbor is to be added for the influx from Berkley bringing their paint brushes and kilms for glass blowing.
I ask: who is truly "crazy"? I rest my case.
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Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 12:08am
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acclaro,I dont think for one second that council is going to change anything, not current council at least. But wouldn't you agree that actions speak louder than words? And wouldn't you agree that if you have a problem you speak up to the ones causing you grief ? I dont think anyone on this site is crazy (their words not mine) in fact I believe most on here are extremely smart and want whats best for Middletown, as I do. But I also believe sitting on the side line waiting for change instead of forcing some sort of action is not the way to go. Would you not agree? ------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 6:12am
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The Interstate Highway System started the great shift in population away from the downtown areas. Cities that were near the interstate thrived while many other small communities became ghost towns.
Then came the “Pill” and we now had smaller families with more money to spend on the good things in life. We could live anyplace and work miles away from our homes. We spent hours running up and down the new interstate looking for a new sub-division to call home while buying cheap gasoline for our over sized cars. Yes, sir life was just great! And then the final stake was driven into the heart of our downtown business centers by the big box stores like Wal-Mart opening up on the edge of town and sucking all the dollars from the core because “China could make it cheaper”…and we bought all that they could produce. The banks, lawyers, doctors, accountants and dentist all moved out of the downtown to be closer to their clients. We left the poor to live and deal with the problems of their neighborhoods and the crumbling buildings in the downtown core. NOW YOU WANT CHANGE…. Well what are YOU willing to do? Are YOU willing to stop shopping at Wal-Mart and support local business? Are YOU willing to pay more for an American Made Product? Are YOU willing to move back into the downtown area? Are YOU willing to stand before City Council and demand change? If you want change…THEN YOU MUST CHANGE! |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 7:02am
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Amen Ms.Moon
blah blah blah
dog park thinking is so bizarre that I think that it has finally put me over the edge
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 7:24am
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City Hall says that downtown is booming. City Hall says that they want to draw even more people downtown. City Hall says that a lot of people would use a dog park. City Hall says that they're going to demo a whole lot of property downtown with no particular plans for the vacant spaces at the moment.
If City Hall actually believes all that it says, wouldn't it make more sense to put the new animal park downtown??? It certainly would be cheaper!!! ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 8:36am
| Randy, no I do not think talking has any impact at city hall, with school board members, or city council. at a public forum. Few care. I've seen you videos and watch the smirks from Mr. Mulligan and others, most sit and doodle with their heads down. I recall the head of the NCAAP in Middletown having her head taken off for stating Mr. Kohler should be fired by Mr. Mulligan. They "get" section 8 is too high. One day, the numbers will go down, but stating the obvious repeatedly isn't going to change that course. In fact, the strongest voices are the school system on that issue because they use it as a socio-economic excuse for poor performance. Its valuable to raise concerns when those on the other side are willing to listen. City hall, council aren't. You're selling vacuums door to door and running into angry potential customers who slam the door in your face. There is no give and take. For the few brave soul council members who have open forums, that seems to be a good starting point. Mr. Self could speak then about the HUD observations, what about setting that ordinance back so funds are allocated to the streets? |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 9:12am
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acclaro your logic on these matters escapes me. I am sure Council gets the fact there is:
Lack of Jobs
Lack of funds for Infrastructure, your pet project by the way
excessive poverty
excessive section
poor performing schools
excessive poor qualityof housing stock
the poor reputation of Middletown in the surrounding area
the business unfriendly title
etc., etc., etc.
But with your logic there is no sense repeating any of it and we should all just sit and shut up and let council and the city just go on their merry way of destroying what is left.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 9:32am
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wasteful, you must not have read the many suggestions I've offered on this forum and others over the years, and been consistent. Knock yourself out on attending the meetings,, my point is it is quite obvious council doesn't care. If they care, and on some issues there is agreement, then there is no solution. As for alternatives, I've listed many, and in priority from my outlook anyway. Lets go through your list:
1. Jobs- City will say the east end is a work in process, agree or disagree?
2. How many years does it take the council to alter an ordinance "w"- its now been 21 and counting?
3. > Poverty. City position check. They made that the campaign (grant) basis for special federal funding right (singing to the choir).
4. 8- City response- we screwed up, we screwed up, we screwed up! (City council statement btw)
5. Schools- Schools say socioeconomic situation and blame game. City says its a brownfield, old economy just needing time to change to biotech---talk your head off my friend, but this one's been said for 5 years and counting.
6. Poor housing stock. Go drive on DaVinci and look at great hosuing stock sitting for 5 years.
7. Poor reputation of Middletown. Another 5 year city council response: we have a great relationship with surrounding communities, you must like hearing this said over and over.
8. Business unfriendly- City response- we have hired a talented group of economic developers who are worldclass, working tirelessly to build the east end, our future, while not neglecting downtown. You must like the echo chamber.
You missed my oint, change can occur, but not through council or bringing up the same issue, and hearing the same response over and over. I've been to Mammoth Cave, and heard my echo before. I don't need to go to a council meeting and hear the echo chamber repeated over and over on the above. Some have suggestted wrongdoing, would that not be a better outlet to have an investigation or a "Schiavone" move, no, not Dave, the brother attorney in Monroe, that you saying things are bad, they say things are good?
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 9:34am
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JMO and many will not agree, but you asked for feedback on HOW we can change the city after Pacman and others here, did a great job on identifying WHAT is wrong with our town(and schools) Here goes.....
It all starts and funnels through the City Council/ the folks in the city building and the School Board. If we don't have competent, correctly focused,problem solvers as members of these entities, we're dead in the water before we start. If we don't start identifying candidates to elect to fill the School Board/Council that are a different breed than the ones that the "club"/MMF'ers/"inner circle" people have placed into these positions the last 20 years, we are doomed to see what we have now.....ie......what we talk about daily on this site. After we have placed the appropriate people in the Council and School Board positions, we must communicate to them that the current policies governing the schools now, need to be amended to reflect a different direction in teachers methods for instruction, a new direction for the admin as to their role in the system, a re-thinking of the curriculum, a new approach when negotiating with the Teacher's Union, working with the city on reducing the negative impact the Section 8 program has on the Midd. schools, and having the super, admin, teachers and school support people to buy into the program. Likewise, after we have the correct logical-thinking, correct direction, correct prioritizing individuals setting behind the council desk on Tuesday's, we need to communicate with them that their priorities will be decent paying jobs, business retention through a total change with a friendly approach, a blitkrieg of econ. devel- not the piecemeal crap going on now, a total review of the individual budgets and funds with the money being moved back to where it was intended and strict oversight of the "General Fund" aka... the Black Hole where monies deposited get "lost" from the financial books over time, get the funds put back in the streets/infrastructure funds and start the work of fixing the streets, and basically have the new council address everything we have been talking about on this site. THEN.......THEN..... we communicate that we want the new council to start documenting the activities of the city manager from her arrival to current, Kohler's activities from his arrival to current, Landen's activities, ........doing the same for all problem children until we get enough evidence to introduce the dismissal procedures for these individuals. Concurrently, as this is happening, the new council meets to align new replacements. Now, as this scenario plays out, we have a new School Board and Council seated with the correct people in place with the correct focus and ideas needed to start the damage control and the beginning of the repair of this town. We have the correct priorities and the supporting casts set up in the city building with the correct focus/priorities that, when combined, will cooperate together to actually get something done with some teeth in it to make a difference and that the citizens will notice and approve of. Of course, this, to some, is a pipe dream as there are too many steps that are too difficult to accomplish to be successful. THAT......is the problem with all of this. All JMO of course. Adding to this is encouraged, if desired. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 9:50am
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Vet, I'm stuck in an airport awaiting to get to DC, which doesn't lok promising, so I have some time to kill this morning. What you speak makes perfect sense, in the majoriy of cities in the nation. The problem is, this is Middletown. You are hedging your bets on city council, and what has changed. Okay, we have two new young councilmen who say they want o buck the trend, and another I'd place in the camp of M, B, A . Too early to say the two younger ones are, will become, change agents-, but that's two, out of four in the "nothing wrong with Middletown camp- Glory Days are coming") and a fence sitter that falls on either side, which is unpredictable.
Your in Nirvana, although your thought process and logic is totally within reason for 99.9% of communities. You just fail to take into consideration...your in Middletown Vet. Stop trying to apply logic, reason, and analysis, it doesn't work that way in the city. Remember, the city manager sees nothing but a bright future for the city.
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 9:59am
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They key to real change is through the ballot box.
Supporting new voices that mirror adifferent approach to the issue mentioned.
We must "starve the beast(Council/Admin)" to bring them to the table for meaningful change.
This probably means voting "NO" on virtually everything until Council/Admin sees the necessity to compromise and become more open/receptive. If we have to vote down school issues also as part of the blanket "starvation", then so be it. Maybe they can add to Council's pressured stances.
Our Council/Admin in few ways serves the will of the citizens, and honestly doesn't listen to the citizens.
Our Mayor has shut the door with his infamous "We are not set up to answer ?s from the publc".
Mr.Mulligan needs to be replaced. Mr.Becker must be removed to weaken the Mulligan/Becker/Picard voting bloc. Mr.Armbruster hopefully will move towards Ms.Scott-Jones/Mr.Smith/Mr.Laubaugh new breed open thinking.
This forum is our best vehicle at this time.
Hopefully the MJ can be used in conjunction, along with community forums and Council comments/first/second readings, planning commission etc. The changed complexion on Council should lead to more diverse appointments to the important boards and commitees.
Despite Council/Admin and their minions belittling and downplaying MUSA's participants and direction, you can sense their concern about the growing faction. AND the MUSA thinking is far more in tune with the public consensus than Council/Admin's thinking. You can be sure that "they" realize that they have lost all connection with the general public.
Mr.Self has provided invaluable history and info, though only he can bring it forward to whomever can investigate properly and connect the dots. No one else has the knowledge to effectively present the situations. Name-calling and vindictive posturing only moves the process backwards.
Section 8 must be ruduced in a meaningful and orderly fashion.
Employers and jobs must be created.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 10:37am
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Folks, please recall that I trumpeted that we needed to find four good candidates (one from each ward) convince them to run, and get them elected, beginning back in late 2008. Most of us did NOTHING!!! Look what happened.
The next council (and school board, I believe) is in November of 2011, nearly two years away. It will be for an at-large mayor (currently Mulligan's seat) and for two at-large council members (Scott-Jones and Becker's seats). As every knows (or if you don't know, I'm telling you now) at-large seats are much harder to win than ward seats, especially if incumbants choose to run for re-election.
My reason for saying all of this is twofold:
1. It may already be too late! By the time we elect 3 new council members and three new school board members (IF we can do so--and that's a big "IF") Middletown may be FUBAR already.
2. If we want to try, we need to start trying to find candidates NOW!!! We cannot act the same as last time and wait until the last minute to see if the old, infirm geezers like Mr. Barge, Mr. Nagy, or myself, run. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 10:47am
| acclaro- The intent of my earlier post was to eliminate the biggest roadblock(IMO) that I see to change and that is.....current city council/school board and certain employees of the city including the city manager. The whole theme of my post was a complete change in personel in these three entities. If the city manager sees "nothing but a bright future for the city", then we eliminate this "denier of reality" and all those like her. Need to purge the rose-colored glasses people and replace with reality based, call it like it is people who have problem solving abilities and who can prioritize correctly. IMO, we can begin to change Middletown by eliminating the people who have brought it to it's knees. Logic, reason adn analysis can be brought back with the correct people in place. IMO, it all starts there. Change the downward direction of the city by changing the thinking of the people running the city through changing the players on the stage to reflect what this city really needs. JMO |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 11:08am
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Vet, I am not denying your sound reasoning, it works in all cities across the country, except in Middletown. Council is comprised of 7 people who give 2-3 hrs twice a month. They know there are problems, but just like the school board, and I'm being repetitive, they aren't big thinkers and don't want to invest the time, they don't get paid alot for the work, and the complexity appears too much, or so difficult it becomes simply spinning the wheels, no traction, no teeth. Look at the goals recently, the same as Mike Presta superbly demonstrated in his summary for 3-4 years.
MMF will have teed up, replacements or the incumbants will run again. Armed with $50 Kk- $60 kk in cash, the cycle will continue. It hasn't been broken. As Mike stated, if you wait until 2011 for change, and replacement, it will be too late. The "other" side organizes too well. We are all putting too much faith in getting city council to turn the ship around, it hasn't and it won't. Their solution is taxation. There has been no significant industry moving into Middletown for years. SunCoke is 75 jobs.
Spider has absolutely the best solution to bring about change. Starve the beast, Defeat this levies, send a message. The key will be some degree of orgainzation, but as he said, maybe there truly enough people just so feed up with what has transpired, both the school levy and the tax increase will be rolled back to 1.5%. Leverage begins when there is a degree of power and respect. Until change is reflected by starving the beast, as spider states, all other efforts are putting lipstick on the pig.
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 7:23pm
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So why wait for 2 years?
If we can get the required signatures this can be changed in 4-6 months not 2 years. Lets stop sitting here and just talking about it and do something.
705.92 Procedure for removal of elective officer by recall.Any elective officer of a municipal corporation may be removed from office by the qualified voters of such municipal corporation. The procedure to effect such removal shall be: (A) A petition signed by qualified electors equal in number to at least fifteen per cent of the total votes cast at the most recent regular municipal election, and demanding the election of a successor to the person sought to be removed, shall be filed with the board of elections. Such petition shall contain a general statement in not more than two hundred words of the grounds upon which the removal of such person is sought. The form, sufficiency, and regularity of any such petition shall be determined as provided in the general election laws. (B) If the petition is sufficient, and if the person whose removal is sought does not resign within five days after the sufficiency of the petition has been determined, the legislative authority shall thereupon order and fix a day for holding an election to determine the question of the removal of the elective officer, and for the selection of a successor to each officer named in said petition. Such election shall be held not less than thirty nor more than forty days from the time of the finding of the sufficiency of such petition. The election authorities shall publish notice and make all arrangements for holding such election, which shall be conducted and the result thereof returned and declared in all respects as are the results of regular municipal elections. (C) The nomination of candidates to succeed each officer sought to be removed shall be made, without the intervention of a primary election, by filing with the election authorities, at least twenty days prior to such special election, a petition proposing a person for each such office, signed by electors equal in number to ten per cent of the total votes cast at the most recent regular municipal election for the head of the ticket. (D) The ballots at such recall election shall, with respect to each person whose removal is sought, submit the question: “Shall (name of person) be removed from the office of (name of office) by recall?” Immediately following each such question, there shall be printed on the ballots, the two propositions in the order set forth: “For the recall of (name of person).” “Against the recall of (name of person).” Immediately to the left of the proposition shall be placed a square in which the electors may vote for either of such propositions. Under each of such questions shall be placed the names of candidates to fill the vacancy. The name of the officer whose removal is sought shall not appear on the ballot as a candidate to succeed the officer’s self. In any such election, if a majority of the votes cast on the question of removal are affirmative, the person whose removal is sought shall be removed from office upon the announcement of the official canvass of that election, and the candidate receiving the plurality of the votes cast for candidates for that office shall be declared elected. The successor of any person so removed shall hold office during the unexpired term of the successor’s predecessor. The question of the removal of any officer shall not be submitted to the electors until such officer has served for at least one year of the term during which he is sought to be recalled. The method of removal provided in this section, is in addition to such other methods as are provided by law. If, at any such recall election, the incumbent whose removal is sought is not recalled, the incumbent shall be repaid the incumbent’s actual and legitimate expenses for such election from the treasury of the municipal corporation, but such sum shall not exceed fifty per cent of the sum that the incumbent is by law permitted to expend as a candidate at any regular municipal election. |
Posted By: randy
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 9:20pm
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Where do I sign? Lets do it ? ------------- Call me for a www.CameraSecurityNow.com" rel="nofollow - www.CameraSecurityNow.com quote 513-422-1907 x357 |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Feb 10 2010 at 9:34pm
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As far a city council members, at this time we can only try to recall Mulligan, Becker, or Scott-Jones. They are all "at-large." We would need three candidates to replace them.
Armbruster will be elegible for recall as of 01/01/2011. IF no one else is willing, (and depending upon my health) I might be willing to run to fulfill the last three years of Armbruster's first ward term. I would rather not, but I will consider it at that time if we can find no other acceptable candidate from the first ward willing to do so. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 11 2010 at 1:10am
| The 15% should not be difficult, assuming even if 10,000 balllots were cast, which would be too high, that would be 1500 of course. As for the removal, it would appear the most sound basis would be the history of HUD and the lack of knowledge as to when these problems began. I assume it began on the watch of those 5 years ago, and going forward. Upon reading the administartive code, it would appear the replacement candidate would have to defeat the elected official attempted to be recalled. Only associated with name recognition, I believe that may be an unhelp battle with M and B, unless there is a strong correlation between sleeping at the wheel when the HUD situation numbers rose. Additionally, with Mr. Self's info, perhaps there is a compelling argument to be made for some HUD conflicts, lack of oversight, etc. I believe Mike Presta could defeat Mr. Armbruster, and there may be some solid candidates who would be willing to step up to the plate, maybe spiderjohn? |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Feb 11 2010 at 5:56am
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I think we need to have a meeting to discuss this matter in depth. Count me in. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 11 2010 at 6:25am
| Just need a time and place. Suggest a call to Betty McGary at the Butler County Board of Elections to verify what is needed/who can be removed at this time, in addition to what Pac posted as to removal. |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Feb 11 2010 at 6:40am
There are actually FOUR SEPARATE ISSUES INVOLVED:
1. Obtaining the required number of signatures for recall of each elected official (separate petition for each), and having same certified by the board of elections.
2. Obtaining of signatures for a candidate to run for each office POTENTIALLY to be vacated.
3. Get more votes cast "FOR" the recall than are cast "AGAINST" the recall.
4. Get "THE PEOPLE's" CANDIDATE elected (assuming MMF runs a contingent candidate against us--if they do not, all we need is a vote or two).
The incumbent can campaign "AGAINST" the recall, but he/she cannot run as a candidate for the office from which he/she is being recalled. If "AGAINST" the recall prevails, the incumbent retains office and the voting for the replacement is moot. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
acclaro wrote:Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Feb 11 2010 at 7:25am
| "Under each of such questions shall be placed the names of candidates to fill the vacancy. The name of the officer whose removal is sought shall not appear on the ballot as a candidate to succeed the officer’s self." |
Posted By: wannaknow
Date Posted: Feb 11 2010 at 7:52am
| I have a meeting place. This seems like a positive move, action verses words. I am amazed that they would even consider a doggie park. Is there no way to get rid of Marty? |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Feb 11 2010 at 9:24am
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ARTICLE VI INITIATIVE, REFERENDUM AND RECALL
SECTION 1. INITIATIVE AND REFERENDUM. The initiative and referendum powers are reserved to the people of the City on all questions which City Council is authorized to control by legislative action. Such powers shall be exercised in the manner provided by the laws of the State of Ohio. (Amended 11-8-1949; 11-7-2000) SECTION 2. RECALL. (a) Any elective officer of the City may be removed from office by the qualified electors of the City. The procedure for such removal shall be as now provided by Section 3515-71 of the General Code of the State of Ohio (now Ohio R.C. 705.92). (b) Any person removed from office by a recall election shall not be appointed or employed by the City in any department of the City for a period of at least two (2) years from and after the date of such removal. (c) Each officer whose recall is sought by petition as herein provided shall have the right to present a statement in not more than two hundred (200) words defending his position and such statement shall be mailed by the Clerk of the Council to each registered voter of the City at least fifteen (15) days prior to such election. (Amended 11-8-1949; 11-7-2000)
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Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Feb 11 2010 at 9:44am
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Probably shouldn't waste your time on a recall effort.
You have to have better, recognizable and accepted candidates in line to replace those recalled, and I don't see any suitable names stepping up to the plate at this time. Plus--we need SERIOUS participation from the 30yo-50yo crowd, specifically as modern-thinking replacements. This seems to be a segment sorely missing from the MUSA community.
Just hit the ballot box hard in May, by overwhelmingly rejecting everything.
The type of "clear mandate" will resonate loudly.
At this time, there is little support for anything coming from the city building, and those down there are very aware of that fact. We shall remove their continued arrogance and shameless self-promotion/preservation as forcefully as possible.
Anyone heard about progress made by Mr.Schiavone in his new position, or that the position will possibly be extended?
Their "approval rating" may well be in single digits.
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Feb 11 2010 at 10:27am
| We shouldn't do anything once again back to square 1. I doubt the School Levy is going to fail. So we vote down the Library levy wow that is going to shake them up downtown. Hey Mr. Laubach do you need a recognizable name to win.....no you don't. You need to take a stance on the issues. If you want to marginalize Becker for now you take him out with a recall. If you wait 2 years and try to run against him, if he decides to run, it is much tougher. |
Posted By: sportsnut
Date Posted: Feb 11 2010 at 12:02pm
| From an outsiders view that has family interests in the city - I think you focus on one council member to recall. IMO Smith/Laubach/Scott-Jones will do well for the citizens of Middletown. Find someone that is really strong in their beliefs of changing the city and focus on getting that person on council by recalling the appropriate council member. This will bring a voting block of four to council and may result in real change. Don't try and go for the homerun of eliminating all the council members you dislike - that will come in time - going for one will be a smaller, easier to accomplish task. JMO |
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Feb 12 2010 at 5:50am
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"What can we do?" That was the topic of this thread. We have explored the various avenues that can be taken to initiate change, and there has been some talk outside of this forum of similar things. I think that there is agreement that at least some Middletonians are ready to take action, but are there enough of us...and what course do we take??? Well, there is one course that we have not discussed, and it is a road less traveled. I, myself, have started along this road years ago (1999) but lost my way...and I consider myself a pretty good navigator. I believe--and I think that many others believe as well--that many of our elected and appointed public officials are, or have been, guilty of malfeasance, misfeasance, or nonfeasance in office. Most of these acts would require them to vacate their offices. Some could even rise to the level of felonies!!! While I believe that I can document events or actions that in and of themselves would justify ridding us of most of the “bad actors” at City Hall, the problem lies in getting someone to prosecute them. One would think that just bringing these matters to the attention of a judge, someone in the Attorney General’s office or similar government official would be enough, but it does not seem to be. It seems to be up to private citizens to file suit in civil courts to stop these civic crimes. So, I just thought that I’d throw this other option out there, and see if anyone had any thoughts. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 12 2010 at 6:52am
A class action suit on behalf of the citizens of Middletown against the individuals representing the city or perhaps the city itself? How much would this cost to hire a law firm that would tackle this for us? Depending on how many people we could get to contribute to the attorney fee pot, what kind of money are we talking about for each of us to dole out? Who would research the law firm with the best record of representation of a class action suit similar to this? How would we get the word out to solicit funds for this endeavor? How much interest do you think we would have from citizens outside this domain? Why am I asking all these questions?   I'll contribute to the pot what I can afford just to see some of these  's squirm.
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Feb 12 2010 at 8:43am
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Vet, I am certain that it would be thousands of dollars, many thousands.
I know a couple of attorneys who might cut us a break if I did some of the legwork and research, but they don't handle these kinds of cases. There is always the option of filing a "Pro Se" action (meaning acting as one's own attorney), but the odds of prevailing are long, especially here in Butler County, which I believe is the proper venue. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Feb 12 2010 at 8:56am
| Guys we are talking years with a lawsuit and thousands of dollars. While the recall will take months and cost much less. 4-6 weeks to plan, 90 days to collect signatures, 2-4 weeks to verify signatures, 5 days for potential recall person to respond and 30-40 days for the election, total time 6-7 months. |
Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 12 2010 at 9:21am
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Mike, I've read your posts many times associated along these lines. First, you have to bifurcate (split) the two issues: civil and criminal. I have no idea and have taken no time, to understand criminal allegations. They cannot be pursued neceassay at the same time or normally aren't, because one court can be used as a collection agency for the other. That's an argument I make regarding the city ordinance for the city tax ordinance- it is a M1 if they allege you haven't filed, even if you owe nothing, so you'll gladly pay court costs on the civil side and the civil penalty. That should be taken out of the ordinance is one which could be constitutionally challenged.
No attorney would take this pro se. A good starting point, after understanding what claims would be, would be to contact the ACLU, and inquire about pro se action. You could include many actions to entice their interest, perhaps the cameras and their constitutionality, some of the retaliation others have spoken, some of the accusations I've read about from Mr. Self.
Criminal misdoings are easy to file, they can of course be done at the Ohio AG office, which I again, state I am not knowledgeable to know what such accusations to be (if its meeting in private, etc- I know their are adminsitartive complaints that can be filed with the appropriate agency and a formal investiogation and hearing would be heard).
As for civil, perhaps the cities misuse of funds although probably legal, such as taking infrastructure funds, could support damages wich drove propery values don, as well as the error made in the over stock of accepting 80% of section 8 within the county. The allegation would be the effect upon property values. I think there would need to be 4-5 significant actions, that were either intentional, willful, or simple neglect, which occurred, and then damages calculated upon all residents. Did Middletown's actions decrease on average values of a resident by $15,000. times 10,000 homes. That gets a contingency attorney's attention. And that is the type of action that Schiavone (attorney) used in Monroe associated with Coke, and that was future damage, not past.
There would be no difficulty in finding an attorney who would take a contingency case based upon the above, IF the damages were real, calcuable, and direct or proximate to the city of Middletown's action. As I don't know enough about criminal wrongdoing, I'd recommend leaving that up to those who either know or were involved in such allegations, and that is a state matter---simply report to the proper agency or AG.
For civil, I believe actions such as using infrastructure funds to pay for the hospital land is a strong civil claim, while it may have helped payroll for the city, it did nothing for property values. Combine that with others, such as the continued misuse and lack of willingness to alter the ordinance on infrastructure funds, and another strong claim appears, associated with the reduction in property values, and a class action suit associated with residents impacted. Section 8 is obvious. At the end of the day, probably 5-7 actions could be identified, and that would support damages of $ tens of millions.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 12 2010 at 9:54am
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By the way, the most logical action to be taken (and above seems logical to me on the civil side), is the beast must be starved. Some degree of organization must be initiated, to defeat the school levey. Then the next big election to push back the 1.75% tax increase. In fact, that might be a logical petition to do now, to get enough signatures to set aside the tax imcrease, based upon what I've read is many believe the use of the money was not public safety only, but did not fill positions and was diverted elsewhere.
It starts with logical goal setting. Spider hit it right on, starve the beast, get some attention, and the city certainly is providing little services. At the same time, start listing potential damages. I have some I've strawmaned which I believe to be accurate. I'm sure others have many ideas and knowledge. What about the canal, and additional damage to those living next to it in property decline?
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Feb 12 2010 at 11:31am
Just for grins and giggles, lets say you win a $100,000,000.00 judgement against the city. Now never mind the award of $100,000,000.00 who is actually going to pay your lawyer fees of say 1/3 or $33,000,000.00 or whatever the agreed amount in lawyer fees would be. Is the city insured for that much or will we the taxpayer end up footing the bill.
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Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 12 2010 at 10:28pm
| The taxpayer would be the plaintiff and would benefit in the award of damages were awarded. I believe the premise Mike Presta stated was a class action suit. no, the taxpayer would not be billed on a loss to the city. That isn't covered in an ordinance to raise taxes to 20%. Yes, the city would have an insurance policy against loss, and I'm sure it has a specified amount. I;d assume many residents would be happy to settle at the maximum level in the policy wouldn't you? I doubt if this would ever get off the ground. Too many in Middletown prefer to be run over the city. |