1970's Vintage HUD and the City of Middletown
Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Government
Forum Name: Community Revitalization
Forum Description: Middletown Community Revitalization News
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3167
Printed Date: Apr 28 2024 at 4:42pm
Topic: 1970's Vintage HUD and the City of Middletown
Posted By: Nelson Self
Subject: 1970's Vintage HUD and the City of Middletown
Date Posted: Jul 28 2010 at 5:38pm
CREDITS -- Urban Ohio: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=6184.msg61464#msg61464 - Construction pics of City Centre Mart/Mall, Middletown, Oh circa 1970s -- November 17, 2005, 10:16:08 PM
Plans to make downtown Middletown more suburban actually began in the late 1950s with an experiment that shut off Central Ave to vehicle traffic and created the pedestrian Central Plaza. I'm not quite sure how long this lasted, but at some point in the 1960s, a local artist was asked to create some renderings of new storefronts for buildings along Central Ave. One of those renderings appears below:  By the late 1960s, a new direction was taken (probably because the Middletown received several millions in federal dollars) to enclosed the intersection of Central and Broad Streets and extend that enclosure 500 feet in each direction to created an indoor, climate controlled mall. The old intersection would serve as the focal point with a large fountain. Next is a rendering of the mall's inside that must have been developed during the planning stages:  The remaining pictures are mostly of the canopy's construction. Part of the project involved removing old, deteriotated buildings. You get a chance to see how the area looked before the mall and before some of the buildings were torn down.             Both the Filson's and Weber's buildings were casualties of the mall's construction:  And finally, a completed entrance. This was known as the West Entrance at Main Street and what was Central. Each entrance had some sort of public artwork or fountain.  The mall's removal began in the early 2000s and the project was completed in Winter 2003. I have posted some pics in the forum on how the area looks today. I have some pics of the mall prior and during its removing, but they aren't electronic. |
Replies:
Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jul 28 2010 at 6:26pm
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Nelson,
Great pictures!
However, I believe that you are a bit off on the timeline.
City Centre was enclosed during the mid-1970's. I worked for McGraw (the first time) from 1973 until March of 1976, at which time I rejoined Kaiser Engineers on a project in California. McGraw's office at that time was on the corner of 1st Avenue and Canal Street.
Although I worked mostly at construction sites, during the periods that I worked in the engineering office we often walked down Central Avenue at noontime to eat lunch, go to the bank, etc.
It was definitely during that era that the enclosure of City Centre began.
The original plan called for an "International food court" similar to the one in Kansas City. I recall discussing this, and whether the demographics of Middletown would support such a food court, especially in the downtown area. The general agreement was that Middletown "was not a pimple on Kansas City's @ss" and that even though many of us that worked in McGraw's Engineering department would like such an eatery, "international" cuisine would likely fail in this location. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Jul 28 2010 at 6:54pm
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So nice to see Mr. Self take credit for something he didn't do. This is simply a repost from a thread at Urbanohio.com
Mike, conceptual planning for the mall began in the late 1960s as documented in a comprehensive plan for Downtown Middletown. I think it's from 1968. I have seen a copy of it. Here's the thread from UrbanOhio-->http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,6184.0.html . There is an additional posting that is related to the post that is included in this forum. But I agree, work did not begin until the 1970s. |
Posted By: Nelson Self
Date Posted: Jul 28 2010 at 8:34pm
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Mike -
In reviewing these Urban Ohio photos you'll see a couple of shots that include HUD project signs. This project was funded by HUD via the Neighborhood Development Program (NDP). In 1975 the HUD Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) program came into existence and replaced conventional Urban Renewal, NDP and some other smaller categorical grant programs.
SW Ohio/Whomever You Are -
You're correct. This was an Urban Ohio posting.
Please explain how that my post claims personal involvement with this project? However, during the years that this project was being implemented I worked in Bentorn Harbor, MI and Pawtucket, RI on similar NDP-funded grants. My work history goes back to 1971 so I know of what I speak.
You might try being a little less provocative and little bit better informed the next time you feel compelled to denigrate someone! Come out of the closet.
NRS
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Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jul 28 2010 at 8:52pm
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Mike (and some of you folks who were around in the 50's and 60's).....concerning Nelson's comments on the pedestrian walkway on Central- seems to me there were posts or barricades across Central at Verity by JC Penney/Castell Bldg. intersection and there was foot traffic only from there down towards G.C.Murphy (Beau Verre) at Central and Broad. Don't remember it lasting all that long.
Great pictures Nelson. Certainly brings back memories for me as I remember the downtown area in my youth up until the end of high school in the mid-sixties. There were so many shoe stores. Walkers, Florsheim (?), Moellers (?), Nobels, and more. Then, when everything started moving out east to the Midd. Shopping Center in 1958, the place to shop for shoes was the Gentry Den to buy some of those British Walkers, the preferred shoe of the 60's crowd I hung around with. Filson's/Mabley-Carew were the places to go for the women shoppers, I believe. Notice the Castell Bldg. across from J.C. Penney? Many professionals filled that building in it's heyday. My dentist, Dr. Sebald, had an office on the 4th floor, (I think)? J.C Penney had a killer toy selection at Christmas time on the upper floor. Robertson & Son Sporting Goods on Central (now a shadow of it's former self in Poasttown), across from Reed-Klopp Furniture also had a great Christmas toy selection upstairs. Just out of curiousity, Mike- Spider-, do you remember when they re-routed Verity Parkway by J.C Penneys? Verity did go to the right of the Central Store (Richie's Pawn Central now) on the Castell Bldg. side, right? Reedy's Meat Market sat behind the Castell Bldg. on Verity didn't it? Some may only know the current layout of Verity. Wasn't always so. Thanks for finding the pictures. 
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Jul 28 2010 at 9:23pm
The way this post originally appeared implied that you did all the work in finding the pictures and providing the commentary (as it was done in first person). I was simply pointing it that in fact was reposted from UrbanOhio. I never claimed your post implied personal involvement with the City Centre project. I know otherwise. |
Nelson Self wrote:Posted By: Nelson Self
Date Posted: Jul 28 2010 at 11:45pm
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Thanks SW Ohio and Viet Vet.
As someone now 62+ years old, I regret that I did not live here while growing up. It makes me sad to read the recollections of Viet Vet as we both are about the same age. Middletown was (and still can be) a stable, environmentally pleasant community. One Donham Plaza senior staff would do well to provide real citizen participation opportunities for local business people and concerned older neighborhood residents. There seems to be too many of the "usual suspects" always being appointed to special committees, etc.
Finding these photographs quite by accident today was very interesting for this Missourian. In my home town of Springfield, MO we had a once thriving downtown. About the same time as here, HUD funds were sought and approved to close off four main thoroughfares radiating out from a so-called public square. In the 1990's this city of now 150,000+ removed the pedestrian covered mall and re-introduced vehicular traffic. Unfortunately, an outlying mall and big box retailers siphoned off what was the core of the city. It is now experiencing some rejuvination thanks to the presence of Missouri State University, downtown loft apartment redevelopment and expanding entertainment venues.
I sincerely feel the pain of the decent citizens of Middletown like Viet Vet, Steve Dillman, Walter Leap, Vivian Moon, Nick Kidd, Bert Grimes, Rosa Lean Lindsey, Paul Renwick, Mike Presta, etc. who only seek hope for a return to better days.
Nelson Self
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Posted By: Dead man walkin'
Date Posted: Jul 29 2010 at 6:31am
Probably not even a gleam in your daddy's eye, I'd guess. Presta hasn't been doing his job here lately, but he was right in what he said on this one. Of course it took them years and years to plan the d*m mall, They were no quicker then than they are now. But they built the thing in the mid 70s, just like he said.
Quit making trouble, and come back when you're old enough to drink whisky.
Moron. ------------- "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil" (Psalm 23) |
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jul 29 2010 at 7:04am
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What did they do with the fountain and where did it go? |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jul 29 2010 at 7:32am
Vivian- maybe our forward thinking city leaders are saving it to use for the "water feature" out by the I-75 "gateway".  
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Jul 29 2010 at 10:20am
I know when the mall was built. I never questioned Mike on that or anything else he mentioned in his post. The post from UrbanOhio never claimed the mall was built in the 1960s, just the planning for the mall started in the 1960s. I was just pointing that out. Why the naming calling? And I'll pass on the whiskey. Not my choice drink. But let me assure you that I have been "of age" for quite sometime. |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Jul 29 2010 at 10:20am
Ah yes--the fountain. It was my understanding that it was investigated whether or not the fountain could be salvaged. It was deemed that it could not be disassembled and reassembled based on the way it was constructed. If my memory serves me correctly, I believe I was told this by one of the former Downtown Middletown Partnership Executive Directors--either Chuck or Jim. That I can't seem to recall. |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Jul 29 2010 at 10:22am
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jul 29 2010 at 6:54pm
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SW:
The "food court" was planned to be in the south wing (S. Broad Street) and it actually did exist, though in a very limited fashion. At some point there were several tables set up in this area, and there were a couple of food venders (on the west side of vacated Broad Street, as I recall) where one could purchase, shall I say "limited menu dining options", either "to go" or to be taken to the tables and enjoyed while "people-watching" from these common use "food court" tables.
I can't really recall if this was before I left for California in March of '76, or when I rejoined McGraw in '88 (or was it '89?).
NOTE: All of the above is from memory and details have not been verified. While I can certainly assure two things: 1) my recollections are generally accurate; 2) I have no hidden agenda. I used to be a busy man and I did not assign much importance to the details of where I had a sandwich for lunch 20 to 35 years ago. ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: TudorBrown
Date Posted: Aug 03 2010 at 9:31am
Insanity 
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Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Aug 03 2010 at 10:22am
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Insanity seems to be the rule of the day in Middletown in this new age.
Perhaps a "food court" is planned for our grand, new, Pendleton Art Center??? After all. even a "starving" artist has to eat, and don't forget those 30 or 40 "patrons of the arts" that will be thronging into downtown one Saturday per month!!!
Hmmm...I wonder if the city would give me a few hundred thousand to start a "Center for the Culinary Arts" downtown. I could teach people how to make my "secret recipe" chili. There would be "streams of revenue" blossoming all over town as new port-o-let vendors "pop up"!!!  ------------- “Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012 |
Posted By: SupportMiddletown
Date Posted: Aug 03 2010 at 12:42pm
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Although the idea was a failure, I do miss the old mall sometimes. ------------- |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Aug 03 2010 at 1:09pm
| Could be worse, we could be stuck with the "People's" Plan |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 03 2010 at 1:36pm
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Hey SupportM--what could you possibly miss from the old enclosed mall?
Swallens?
Dohn's?
Rogers retail and corporate?
Troup Furniture?
A shoe shine?
The "peoples' plan" for that area?
Shouldn't the city admin's plan resemble the desire and benefit to the large majority of the "people"?
We have tried an "Art district" since Beau Verre was created and financed by our city leaders.
Still waiting on those caravans of tourists coming for tours of the facility, lodging at the Manchester, dining at 56 Degrees, the Medicine/Soda/Cajun spot across the street.
"Got Art"--"MiddletOWN it"--"Thatcher's plan--Blakely/Isroff/Banks plan--ACF events and music festivals.
Not to mention new store fronts on empty,decaying buildings(don't we have NEWER store fronts on the horizon?
All with AIM struggling just down the road.
Is this another weak justification of the Paducah folly?
Face it--tens of millions of dollars spent in the area over 40 years to look like it does today.
Looks worse now than ever.
The "peoples' plan" could have hardly fared worse and/or been more costly.
Not to mention decades wasted.
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Posted By: Pacman
Date Posted: Aug 03 2010 at 2:16pm
Please enlighten us as to what the People's plan is/was?
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Aug 03 2010 at 3:40pm
Come on SpiderJohn. Is your memory starting to fail you? I mean, weren’t you on the Downtown Middletown Partnership when all of this was going down?
The “People’s Plan” was branded by the late Perry Thatcher. It was his plan for the post-mall area. He wasn’t on council at the time, but he proposed it as a concerned citizen, businessman, and property owner. Said his plan was the “will of the people” and much cheaper than what the city was proposing. It involved the following: 1.) Removing all buildings on the south side of Central between the old Central Store and the large 5/3 building 2.) Retaining the old mall fountain, but placing a glass enclosure around it and connecting to the north mall concourse that would remain and tie into the Manchester somehow as convention center space. 3.) Re-routing Central Avenue traffic around the fountain and allowing for private redevelopment of the area that was removed. Said Cristo was interested in the commercial development 4.) Placing a new canopy and glass front over the buildings on the north side of Central. This would allow the mall storefronts to remain. Think Town and Country in Kettering. Here’s an old article about ità http://www.enquirer.com/editions/1998/12/11/loc_mallplan11.html Thatcher paid for all the architectural renderings and blueprints. I have a copy of it I can scan and post. But what does this so-called “outsider” know anyway? |
Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Aug 03 2010 at 4:06pm
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OK--SWO
Yes I was on the Downtown Partnership "committee" at that time, on my own dime. My time was 100% my personal time and was hopefully well-intentioned. If you remember, Commission tried to float us an ADDITIONAL $75,000 to keep us in operation! We REFUSED THE $$$, because we were accomplishing nothing, and were no longer managing the parking garage and internal mall operations(as we were when I came on board--remember young Chuck?).
Mr.Thatcher formed a partnership with the Blakleys, Mr.Isroff and Jerry Banks. He later enlisted the Judge with the Valen properties. They resisted any control by our partnership that dictated how they would manage their properties(understandable--I had no issue there), and spun off with their Downtown Alliance.
Well--we can look back as to how well that effort fared also.
If you had referred to the specific "Thatcherville Plan", I would have remembered much sooner.
Perry was my friend--I miss him very much.
If more knew him better, then they would miss him just as much.
If more of substance cared and acted for our community a fraction of what Mr.T did, then we would be far better off today. Sadly, Perry was not a good fit on Commission, especially after Ms.Williams targeted him with vengeance.
Still--I really didn't like his plan for the area.
And I apologize if I have referred to you as an outsider.
You obviously are not. and have valued information and opinions.
Plus you obviously care--enough division.
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Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Sep 13 2010 at 7:32pm
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The "People's Plan"
The late Perry Thatcher's vision for a new downtown Middletown. 
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Posted By: Rhodes
Date Posted: Sep 13 2010 at 8:21pm
| I never heard of that being called the "People's Plan". It was definitely a stupid plan. |
Posted By: wasteful
Date Posted: Sep 13 2010 at 9:05pm
| If people in Middletown spent as much time looking at the present and the future as they do lamenting about the past and what never was, maybe this town would move forward. It appears presently to many can't get over their childhoods and the 50'-60's, so Middletown is stuck in neutral while the surrounding areas pass you by, moving into the future. New Slogan for Middletown should be, "Middletown the City that was, but will never be again". |
Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Sep 13 2010 at 9:13pm
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The problem I had with this plan is it did not get the city out of the mall business and did not reduce their maintenance costs. For example, there was a canopy, just a newer one, over the fountain and storefronts on the north side of Central. The north concourse would have remained. All would have been climate controlled with the city bearing the burden.
Plus, Mr. Thatcher did not have anything lined up in terms of actual redevelopment for the south side of Central. He threw around Cristo's name, but Cristo wasn't doing commercial development and quite frankly, most of his recent residential development looks like crap. But that's just my $0.02. It wasn't a matter of living in the past for me. |
Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Sep 14 2010 at 6:13am
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"If people in Middletown spent as much time looking at the present and the future as they do lamenting about the past and what never was, maybe this town would move forward. It appears presently to many can't get over their childhoods and the 50'-60's", -wasteful.......
Guilty as charged wasteful. I'm one of the biggest perpetrators of this. For me, it's a comfort thing that evokes memories of a much more pleasant time in this town. I have not lost the fact that this town needs to be much more progressive in its thinking and am well aware that it is lagging far behind the surrounding areas and has since the early 80's. Unfortunately, I don't think we will get to where we want to go with the present administration running this town. That's why I have suggested numerous times that we gut and replace city council, fire the city manager and many of the department heads and start from the ground floor with new people with new attitudes. They (and past admin's) are part of the reason why we have remained stagnant in town growth. |
Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Sep 14 2010 at 9:14am
| I agree with Vet....city hall needs a major cleaning out. Everyone there needs and should be fired. Gilleland would be the very first one to hit the street. I'm like Vet,I live in the past because the past was a helluva lot better than anything we've got today. The younger generation doesn't understand this because they don't know any better and have never lived during simple times. I'll take the past any day over the present or future. |
Posted By: angelababy
Date Posted: Oct 15 2010 at 11:44pm
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Although the idea was a failure, I do miss the old mall sometimes.
------------- Welcome to my paintings website - http://www.wholesaleartmall.com - Wholesale Art Mall . |