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When does it get better?

Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown City Schools
Forum Name: School Board
Forum Description: Discuss the board individually and as a group.
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3243
Printed Date: Apr 18 2024 at 1:55am


Topic: When does it get better?
Posted By: wasteful
Subject: When does it get better?
Date Posted: Aug 25 2010 at 3:12am
http://www.middletownjournal.com/news/middletown-news/middletown-maintains-continuous-improvement-rating-878655.html">



Replies:
Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Aug 25 2010 at 3:51am

Wasteful

It’s time to lock the doors and freeze all wages.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 25 2010 at 6:36am
Well, there it is in black and white. The old area school comparison we have been seeing for many many years. And, with the same old results that we have been seeing for many many years. Middletown is ALWAYS on the bottom of the totem pole. Only school in single digits with 5 indicators met. Now....when you bring this to the attention of the superintendent (as I did years ago at the old seniors center when the school folks were having one of their "rah-rah" meetings and Price was still blowing hot air) and you confront him and he says, "well I don't see it that way!", exactly how are you suppose to carry on a conversation with people like that, when you have the cold hard facts in front of you and they still deny that they are performing poorly? It ain't logical thinkin' on their part.

School officials state that the school system was in "flux" and "transition". Nifty little descriptors for avoiding the real explanation to the public I guess. Midd. schools will get 1.4 mil but the levies will keep coming according to Alberico, as the new money is "soft money" and more of your levy dollars are needed to.......perform at the same level as the previous six years which is 5 of 30 indicators met and at the bottom of the list I suppose. When will they actually adopt a viable program to attack the on-going performance issues? Has anyone seen any eye-opening new techniques that really made a difference or has there been only subtle changes that made no impact at all? Why have we been doing the same failed things for at least 6 years in a row, without trying something different and living with the same results? Rasmussen has been a good cheerleader. Now, let's see him make some real changes and correct the Price mess.


Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Aug 25 2010 at 11:41am
Pretty pathetic numbers.
 
But rest assured,it will get better when the next school levy is passed. It always gets better with a levy.Levies fix everything.


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Aug 25 2010 at 1:22pm
If student acheivement is closely associated with parental involvement, as our Super believes, maybe the city should have used that PAC money to bribe the parents to get their kids grades up.  Call it "Cash for C's", "Cash for Caring", "Cash for putting down the Beer, Smokes, and Remote",or maybe "(no) Cash for Flunkers!"


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Aug 26 2010 at 7:28am
That's right Hermes....more money = better results.......new schools = better results......changing supers = better results......passing levies = better results. We've been doing these things for many years. Have we seen better results? You be the judge. The school folks, each year, say that they are improving. Then, when the test scores are published, we all see the truth and know that we have been fooled again. Yet, we keep rewarding this by continually passing their levies. Historic performance and logic says not to keep funding this any longer. This school system is flat out not worth another dime until they make some major changes. The current programs have never been successful, yet, they never have made any significant changes. The last time this school system performed was in the 60's/70's. The 80's started the downward spiral to what it is today.

Ms. Andrew, you have been a participant on this forum. You have defended the school system against our comments in the past. How do you view this situation? Please explain to us why this performance continues to occur and what sweeping changes are being established to eliminate this consistent poor performance? Do you still think we taxpayers should be obligated to pass any future levies based on these results? Is this performance a bargain for the money we are giving to the schools? Thank you for any response in the future.


Posted By: Dooraghero
Date Posted: Sep 21 2010 at 6:43am
"But rest assured,it will get better when the next school levy is passed. It always gets better with a levy.Levies fix everything. "   That seems to be the attitude.  There is no real incentive for improvement when all that has to be done is to put another levy on the ballot and engage in a public relations campaign advertising that the levy must be passed "for the children"  or that if not passed, businesses will not locate here. 

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Would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance,just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives but they'll never take our FREEDOM


Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Sep 21 2010 at 1:02pm
Vet, I did not see your post the first time around. At last night's school board meeting, we had a long discussion on the state report card results and what the district is doing to improve, including professional development to support the teachers' efforts to improve the quality of instruction. I suggest you try to catch a re-play on TV Middletown as there is much more detail discussed than I could repeat here.  The programs of the past few years have "clicked" at several buildings that moved up to Effective on the state report card; we need to keep that progress going and spread it to every building in the district.
 
Marcia Andrew
 


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Sep 21 2010 at 1:17pm
Nice to hear that improvement is happening in some of the schools to the effective level Ms. Andrew. Will try to watch the details, as you suggest tonight. You do understand my frustration and impatience with waiting for years for something good to happen with our schools. The only thing one has to go by is the chart at the top of this page which is self-explanatory and sad after all these years. We taxpayers get tired of throwing money at the problem and seeing no improvement especially after all this time.

It also exacerbates the situation because I was in this school system when it was top-notch and respected in the area. Produced some fine people that went on to be successful. Had 30 per class and the teachers still got the job done. Also had deterrants like Stan Lewis, Dean of Boys, who would crack your behind just as much as look at you. Since the schools took that deterrant out of the schools, the discipline has never been the same and the students are not intimidated any longer. Wrong direction IMO.


Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Sep 21 2010 at 1:30pm
Vet, physical discipline at public schools is against the law. Has been for years. I do agree, however, that we need to have very clear, consistent expectations as to behavior and very clear, consistent consequences for any failure to comply with those behavior expectations.
 
Marcia Andrew


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Sep 21 2010 at 1:49pm
"we need to have very clear, consistent expectations as to behavior and very clear consistent consequences for any failure...."

Which brings us back to the problem of HOW we re-enforce those expectations and consequences. Words mean nothing to those who don't respect the system. If we keep on our current path of telling them, pleading with them, consulting the parents and asking them to help the schools keep little Johnny in line, and proceed with the "coddling program" in place, all we get is more disrespect from little Johnny, little Johnny laughs at the methods used to communicate expectations and consequences and is basically not intimidated at all by the people who are suppose to have the authority. I realize, that because society doesn't want the authority figures in the schools touching one hair on little Johnny's head, that that is the reason it has gotten to such a pathetic state of affairs as to respect from the students. Ever thought how the military gets all the little Johnny's eating, marching, folding their clothes, fighting, learning a military skill, going to bed and rising every morning at the same time and doing things in an orderly fashion? Discipline- identify expectations and follow through with corporal punishment if they step out of line. Expecting the same from all who participate and having repercussions for the violators- harsh repercussions. Need some "boot camp" instilled in the schools, Ms. Andrew. You have witnessed what the "coddling" program does for you and it ain't pretty. Hard line approach for hard line attitudes is the only way. Have seen it in military boot camp myself.


Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Sep 22 2010 at 11:13am
Im afraid the education in the city will never improve until some of the parents actualy start to care until then spending all the money in the world wont make a difference.


Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Oct 03 2010 at 4:56am

Vet
I have been working with two children this year and you can’t imagine how bad it really is. Their parents and the school system have failed these two children over the years.



Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 6:27am
Well, we have some more results from the schools in the Journal today....


“We should see progress as we go along,” Carter said. “This helps us make adjustments along the way.”
- Betsy Carter- SENIOR DIErector of Learning


“We know where our kids need help,” said Debbie Alberico, district spokeswoman, who added that the district hopes a new math program in place at the elementary level begins to raise the district’s commonly low math scores.

The program, called Investigations in Time and Space, encourages student participation by playing an assortment of games, often in small groups. How about that, another program to try and with games included!

Twenty-thirty years now, working on improving the learning process from when the problems first started back in the 70's-80's?

And on and on it goes........


Posted By: Hermes
Date Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 9:09am
It's all excuses in my opinion. A very real lack of responsibility on everyones part from parents to school teachers to administrators.
 
Or it could be the water & air contamination. Since I've lived in Middeltown I'm not as smart as I use to be.


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No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 9:20am
I put 80% of the responsibility on parents and students.
You have to WANT it to benefit from it.
You must WANT your child to get a proper education, and prepare them daily for the opportunity.
You must feed them, clothe them, encourage them, work with them, and nourish them in every way mentioned.
 
The students must walk into the building awake, eager and prepared. 5 days per week.
The meals are there--the teachers for the large part DO care and work very hard at their profession.
Amazing how many students(particularly the very young) don't even make it to the building more than 1-2 days per week. Can't teach/develop them if you can't get them to show up.
Once again it falls back on the parents and priorities.
 
Too many un-educated parents are almost afraid to have their children be better educated than themselves. Jealousy and fear of status loss as the primary role model. So sad.


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 9:44am
Spider, I agree.  How can anyone think our teachers and administrators are utilizing methods that are that much different than surrounding districts.  The difference is the students and their parents/home life. 
 
Problems are complicated.  Solutions aren't easy, whether it's education or business development.  But, according to some on this board, that is a bunch of hooey.  They demand results and the failure to excel is an indictment of the system and those that run it.  It may feel good to vent about problems in that way but it also is an approach that results in more failure.  Like the 70's and 80's when George Steinbrenner constantly threatening to fire a Yankees manager if they didn't win the series every year, regardless of roster considerations, injuries, bad trades, etc. 


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 12:56pm
Alrighty then! Nice shot Bill on the "according to some on this board, that is a bunch of hooey" comment. Question on accountability.....exactly what is the criteria for holding the teachers, administrators and the parents accountable and how long should we wait for the accountability thing to kick in for producing improved results? Ten more years? Twenty more maybe? What will it take for people to see that the system in place and the effort put forward ain't cuttin' it in the Midd. school system? If the difference in receiving a decent education is indeed the students and their parents and home life, how long do we wait to see the schools, the courts, teh parents, the parent's employers and the lawmakers all get together to act on this acknowledged denier of a kid getting an education? Or do we just keep it business as usual with the continued poor results, continued non-accountability of both the school personnel, the parents and the lack of involvement from the courts? What's the answer in your opinion?


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 2:36pm
There is a certain accountability already -- the last Superintendent is now gone and new leadership is here.  I'm willing to give him a couple years.  As for accountability of the teachers, I agree that fundamental changes at the state level are needed --- if that means World War 3 with the union so be it.  Terminations must be easier for bad teachers.  As for parents, what can we do?  There's already a court process for truancy, unless that has been changed. You're not going to be able to prosecute parents for non-involvement.
 
Maybe overhauling the state report card method is needed.  Many criticize it already.  Though I doubt this would happen, perhaps one element of performance could be a statistic that compares test results with the poverty level in the community, # of disabled kids, etc.  Sort of a bell curve. 
 
I don't have all the answers but I think criticizing a district for not generating the same performance numbers as affluent districts is a flawed game.  A game that is rigged by the nature of the rules.  Like yelling at the McDonald's "chef" who can't come up with a meal that compares to the fancy French chef.


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 4:10pm
OK Vet---accountability is there now and has always been there. It would be so simple if accountability meant better results. Our schools mirror our community, state and nation. We have a low-income, blue collar to no-collar community now. The good ole days that we all loved so much are gone forever. We are in a different world now, like it or not.
 
IMO Roosevelt School symbolizes so much of what is happening now. Look at the grand structure and monument to our local heritage. It seems to be giving the demo crew all they can handle and more. It is refusing to come down quickly or easily, and imo shouldn't be coming down at all. But it is coming down hell or high water regardless of the cost or necessity to create another green(hopefully) "space" in the community(right in the middle of Cental Ave.). I can literally hear that loyal building scream in pain every time that I drive by.
 
I was fortunate to spend one day as pretend principal in one of our schools.
Wonderful facility--excellent admin--what seemed to be a very caring dedicated group of teachers(many local faces). The children were from a lower income part of town. I spent time reading and interacting with every 1st grade class. The kids were quiet and sullen until I tallked TO them instead of AT them. Once they realized that they were recieving personal attention, they exploded with conversation. They LOVED talking about their home, their pets, their school and most importantly themselves.
 
I spent an hour or more observing the lunch room. When lunch was completed, these elementary students CLEANED THE CAFETERIA. WIPED OFF THE TABLES AND CHAIRS, SWEPT THE FLOOR AND FILLED THE TRASH. They did it completely, all without any bad attitudes.
 
I attended what was called a "data meeting", where all 1st grade teachers sat down with the principal, asst.principal and an admin rep to discuss classroom progress. Students were divided into three groups--excellent--average--below average, with the conversation revolving around where each student was headed--up down or lateral. The primary concern was getting the students in the door each day. I listened while VERY concerned teachers talked about children who miss at least two to most of the school days per week, and known problems within these youngsters' households. Being in my position, I also knew a lot of the parents of these students, so I knew just how badly things were for many of them.
 
The facilities are excellent--the principals that I know are very good--the teachers that I know or have met seemed to care as much as possible. I ran into a few older retired teachers there who were simply volunteering their time to tutor and mentor.
 
The "problem" you mention is huge, and there is no real answer out there. We have ONE truant officer in the system, who is absolutely overwhelmed. The principal makes home visits when the parents refuse to respond. There is only so much that anyone can do when you don't have the co=operation of the parents and guardians. We are living the product of our current low-end environment. We honestly will struggle to greatly improve or succeed.
 
We need to get these children motivated from early on before they ever set foot in our schools. The parents need to participate in the MCF's Dolly Parton Imagination Library program, which was brought to Middletown by MCF leader Duane Gorden. A chance to teach our own children reading and other positive habits preparing them to enter the system.
 
We need citizen volunteers to work with the youngest students. Retired citizens--those whose children have moved on--those without children--pretty much anyone who really cares and wants to make a difference. Once we get a foothold in the beginning of these young minds, we can change everything for the better. Teachers will be better able to do their jobs--scores will improve because students will want to be highly educated for all of the right reasons. Eventually the parents will be changed not by us, but by their own children. Eventually these children will become the parents.
 
Do your part--tutor/mentor--volunteer--run for office--something.
We all have the time if we really care about this.
 
jmo


Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 5:16pm
Could not have said it better Spider! Every word is true. My mother who is 84 years oldvolunteers at one of the elementary'sfor the reading program, and it is making a difference. This is going to be a long process. New Super in charge Vet, give him a chance. The old days are gone, its a different situation from when you were a child of you kids were in school. Stop living in the past!!! Thumbs%20Up


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 5:53pm
Bill says, "don't have all the answers but I think criticizing a district for not generating the same performance numbers as affluent districts is a flawed game". What???? Where did I say that I wouldn't accept any other performance than the ones in the affluent districts, Bill. Re-read my post. You are interjecting crap into my post that isn't there! I have in the past and am currently asking for the Middletown school district to make some progress in a reasonable amount of time.---THAT'S ALL. Look at the indicators----5 out of 30 for how many years Bill. Mercy!!! I am not asking for a Mason, West Chester, or Springboro school system and the achievements that they have had. I am asking for the school system to NOT TAKE 10 years to move from 5 of 30 indicators to 6 of 30. They have been spinning their wheels far too long despite new elementary schools being built which they said would improve results, and endless number of "new and improved" programs that are suppose to stimulate upward results, changing new superintendents BEFORE RASMUSSEN (so as to give the new guy a chance as you wish) and a multitude of other attempts to raise the performance. Yet, we keep giving them good money to follow bad invested for what- more of the same-year after year? Sorry, I don't agree with the constant excuses used by you and other school supporters, year after year. Hell, you're all like the Bengal fans. You pray and hope that next year will be successful and making excuses when they find out it was another bust on the football season.



Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 5:59pm
Vet, you're right.  You have called for improvement, not necessarily a rating of "Excellence".


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 6:50pm
Spider- if the problem is low income, poor, and the stereotyped phrases that are associated with these people, (no involvement in the educational process happens), why is the city doing everything in it's power to create that same atmosphere right here in this town? And why hasn't the school district marched into city hall and put up some meaningful resistance to the town that is acquiring so many poor, low income residents? I haven't heard much outcry from the school people about all the Section 8. Some token complaints at Highview Elementary when council and the school board "faced off" for dual meetings that evening.

Are you willing to dismiss the "stuck on 5 of 30 indicators" thing? Are you willing to dismiss the ever present basement status on every proficiency test category when compared to surrounding districts- RICH AND POOR? How do you feel about that?

It's a "different world", as you all say it is, is not entirely true. There are the same discipline problems in school today as in the past. Just no corporal punishment program anymore to deal with it. The SCHOOLS decided to remove that segment of the discipline ladder. Now, it's a cake and ice cream world and the troublemakers laugh at the authority figures in the schools now. They didn't dare laugh in the past. Sometimes life is made too easy for the young people. Not doing them any favors later on in life when it chews them up and spits them out.

Glad that you enjoyed your time at one of the elementary schools. Nice report regarding all the wonderful things that are being accomplished. As a taxpayer, with limited interaction with the schools, all I see is the bottom line....the test scores when they are reported. They never improve- they never approach an "average" level of expectations. They always disappoint, especially when considering the amount of money that is being pumped into this bottomless pit.

Yeah, I know the facilities are excellent. State of the art. The 45 million dollar bond from the taxpayers made that happen. And what have we gotten for our money to date? Tell me again? Price's golden elixir selling the fools that new schools translated into improved performance because "kids can learn better in newer surroundings" -Yeah right!

If the truant officer is overwhelmed, perhaps we could get rid of the school spokeswoman and get us another truant officer and put the salary money to better use.



You, Bill, Smartman and other school supporters are willing to keep rowing the oars in the leaking ship as it's sinking. I'm not willing to be as supportive and am tired of waiting and tired of hearing all the excuses/buzzwords in the world as to why it didn't happen again this year. I'm out of patience. It's been thirty years of mediocrity at best.

Spider- you are an employer (taxpayer). What happens to the employee (school personnel) who has been given chances time and time again to improve because the employer has listened to the hard luck stories the employee has told each time and for many years? Do you keep giving them a chance by assigning a drop dead date to change or else, do you terminate them for repeated poor performance after hearing the same old crap time and time again, or do you keep 'em on hoping against hope that they will change and living with the same results when performance appraisal time come around? To date, that is exactly what we are doing with this school system. JMO


Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 7:36pm
Same ole same ole Vet! Quit the excuses and volunteer at the schools to see what IS changing. Areas are improving, but I guess in your warped sense of reality if we dont have 30 out of 30 tomorrow we are failing. If you are really concerned as you say, stop all of you excuses and all of your complaining and GET INVOLVED!!! BE A MENTOR AT THE SCHOOLS AND SINCE YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT A GREAT PARENT YOUR, MENTOR SOME OF THE PARENTS. THE SCHOOLS WOULD BE EXTREMELY GRATEFUL!!!Angry But then it is easier to hide behind  excuses and finger pointing!! Keep it up, you are a fine example. LOL  NOT!!!


Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 7:37pm
Oh and Vrt, you seem to have all the time in the world to monitor this board. Guess too bust to get involved!!


Posted By: tomahawk35
Date Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 11:04pm
When did Franklin become affluent"


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 17 2010 at 6:49am
A typical overstatement from Smartman.

"but I guess in your warped sense of reality if we dont have 30 out of 30 tomorrow we are failing" Not even close, bud. But I do expect better than what we are getting now.

"Same ole same old Vet"- you don't change much either Smartman. None of us do in our ideas and thinking, now do we? I would imagine we will always be on opposite sides of the fence on this issue.

No excuses from me. Don't need to make 'em. It's the schools and the supporters like you who keep making the excuses as to why, once again, they didn't show some progress. The supporters are the ones who seem to encourage the REPORTED stagnation within this school system. Numbers don't lie. Look at the chart at the beginning of this subject. What do you see about the Middletown system? I had nothing to do with the bottom dwelling numbers Smartman. The people in the school system, WHO ARE ACCOUNTABLE for getting the job done (that's what they're paid to do- educate) are responsible, just like I'm responsible for my little corner of the world in testing and you are responsible for whatever it is you do for a living. Do you deny the results on the chart referred in this paragraph and will you continue to make excuses, as the school people do, as to why they are like that year after year? What is the purpose of continually making excuses. Just change the dam program if the current one isn't producing improved results. Logical?

Mercy Smartman, I didn't say anything about achieving 30 out of 30 tomorrow did I? Reread the post. I said I am tired of waiting for many years with the school district stuck at 5 of 30. Would like to see some progress.....any progress toward number 6 without having to wait another 5 years or so. Is that too much to expect?

As to your comment about having ample time on this site, if you knew what kind of job I had you might understand how it worked. I do lab testing. There are times when you must wait for the test machines to test the samples. That takes time depending on the test being done. In that waiting time, I have time to check and comment on this site, then, it's back to testing. Just so you understand I don't sit by the computer all day monitoring this site on a constant basis. I arrive an hour and a half before anyone else gets here just to do what I am doing now. It's on my own time now.

As to your comment about what a great parent I am. How in the hell do you know what kind of parent I am. My "school days" parenting is long over with. My son is out working. He has a good work ethic. Doesn't call off all the time and volunteers to go in when someone doesn't show. I'd say that's a good start on a decent working attitude. Better than alot of young people have nowadays.

I would love to teach some kids to read, if that's ok with you. Please advise on the time I would have to do this as I go to work at 5:15AM, return to Middletown at 4:45PM, immediately start taking care of my wife who is wheelchair bound until we both turn in around 9 to 10PM. That leaves 10PM to 5AM to get broken interrupted sleep until I get up and do it all over again. Weekends- perhaps I would have time to read to the kids. Are they available on weekends?

Perhaps it would have been helpful to you to have understood my situation before you started your criticism of my time to volunteer. You don't have a clue what it takes to take care of a stroke victim. Or maybe you do if you've been in my situation. Don't know. Have a good day.


Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Nov 17 2010 at 7:05am
Wow, looks like I struck a nerve! Vet I do understand what it takes to care for someone who is wheelchair bound. No attack there from me. My point is constant complaining and finger pointing never fixes anything. Fine, I understand you have no time to volunteer, so stop finding fault with everything about the schools. There is a lot of positives going on a small scale, thats how it starts. Good things are going to start coming out of the schools, just watch. But I'm sure that when you are narrow minded and have tunnel vision and live in the past you will never see it. Have a great day!


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 17 2010 at 7:19am
Narrow minded, tunnel vision, living in the past-(you need to add stubborn and not gullible to the list too) Yep, probably all of those. As opposed to swallowing all the excuses the school system uses to make believers out of the rose-colored glasses folks.

Now, did you have a chance to look at the chart at the beginning of this subject? If so, how do you explain the poor performance on this chart and the previous charts which gave the same results from years gone by?

I'll wait and be looking for the "positives going on a small scale" and the "good things that are going to start coming out of the schools". Been waiting and looking for those for 30 years. I can wait a little longer. I might not recognize the "good things" though as I am just a narrow minded, tunnel-visioned old fart living in the past to those who believe what the schools are shoveling. Help me, Smartman, and point out when the changes happen. Some of us may not be able to recognize the changes as they may be too subtle to see, or worse yet, may not be effective at all.

Oh, and one more thing- what does volunteering have to do with finding fault with the schools? Is there a requirement that if you don't volunteer, you can't speak ill of the schools? You must participate before you can criticize? We all "participate" as we send 85% of our property tax money to the schools. That alone, gives everyone a VESTED interest in saying their piece, pro and con, about the schools. If I pay, I get to complain if I wish. Fair enough, Smartman?


Posted By: Smartman
Date Posted: Nov 17 2010 at 7:48am
OK Vet, we can agree to disagree! When good things happen I will make sure you are the first to know about it!!! Thumbs%20Up


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Nov 17 2010 at 1:45pm
hesitant to jump in the middle of a Vet vs.Smartman discussion, HOWEVER:
 
Recently I have had opportunity to visit Rosa Parks, Wildwood, Mayfield and MHS.
I have yet to find a teacher or administrator in any of those facilities that was not professional or did not care anout the job/students, though I am sure that there are some of those out there.
 
The BOE members obviously all care, since they pretty much serve without compensation.
Changing or terminating these groups can only be a successful option if you have better staff to bring in.
Is it out there? If so--where?
Why would they come here for less than considerably more compensation?
 
Vet--we all could help more than we do currently.
That alone wouldn't change the big picture that much.
It still comes down to putting the students in the buildings on an everyday basis, and they must show up prepared/motivated to do their best for no one but themselves.
 
It is like the Queen of Hearts from Alice in Wonderland.
The answer to all problems and inconveniences is not "Off with their head!".
 
To many working class manufacturing-based local families, education was not the top priority when the well-compensated factory jobs were available. Those jobs are long gone now, and will most likely never return. We have a couple generations of parents who still haven't reacted properly, and we may not be able to change that mind set. As of now(and for a while), there is no safety net for those who don't take full advantage of the educational opportunities available. There ARE plenty of quality students currently in the system who are making the most of their opportunities. Those students will turn out just fine.
 
The area has changed.
Time for those resistant to change for the better with the area.
Butler Tech, Cincy St. and MU-M are wonderful opportunities IF you can make it to that level.
We all went through the system at one time.
It really wasn't that difficult, and if students would apply themselves properly, they would find that it is no more difficult today.
 
Vet--I realize that my posts haven't solved your primary concerns.
I share your concerns, and you know that.
I don't have any quick fix or answer.
Just my take on the situation.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Nov 18 2010 at 6:59am
Thank you Spider. Appreciate your comments as I do Smartman's stance on education in town. The fact is that we citizens, the school board, the school admin. and the teachers have all identified the problems many years ago. We all agree that the demographics have changed in this town. The good jobs are gone. Good parents who value education seem to be thinning. There are more low income families living in town now than before and those low income families seem to place little to no value on having their children receive a good education (or care whether they are educated at all in some cases). Just don't understand why, if we have identified the problems years ago, is it taking so long to find even one solution to solve them? Surely other cities have these same problems. Surely there is a town out there someplace that has found something that works to improve the situation.

How about having the super and other school people, jump in a car, and travel to a town, similar to Midd., that has a better track record in achievement and talking to those people about how they improved their situation, with the discussion centered around similar demograhics, similar low income issues, similar non-parental involvement, similar crime, truancy and social issues and make an attempt to implement those successes here? Or is that idea too simple in nature and not a good starting point? Has this ever been tried by our school system...ie... to emulate the success of a comparable district? What is so taboo about asking for some advice from a more successful school system?


Posted By: squeemy
Date Posted: Nov 18 2010 at 3:48pm
those poor educators - everyone is an expert - myself included.

here's a little something from a former teacher, John Gatto. does his perspective resonate with any of you?

"The Six Lesson School Teacher

The first lesson I teach is: "Stay in the class where you belong." I don't know who decides that my kids belong there but that's not my business. The children are numbered so that if any get away they can be returned to the right class.

The second lesson I teach kids is to turn on and off like a light switch. I demand that they become totally involved in my lessons, jumping up and down in their seats with anticipation, competing vigorously with each other for my favor. But when the bell rings I insist that they drop the work at once and proceed quickly to the next work station. Nothing important is ever finished in my class, nor in any other class I know of.

The third lesson I teach you is to surrender your will to a predestined chain of command. Rights may be granted or withheld, by authority, without appeal. As a schoolteacher I intervene in many personal decisions, issuing a Pass for those I deem legitimate, or initiating a disciplinary confrontation for behavior that threatens my control. My judgments come thick and fast, because individuality is trying constantly to assert itself in my classroom. Individuality is a curse to all systems of classification, a contradiction of class theory.

The fourth lesson I teach is that only I determine what curriculum you will study. (Rather, I enforce decisions transmitted by the people who pay me). This power lets me separate good kids from bad kids instantly. Good kids do the tasks I appoint with a minimum of conflict and a decent show of enthusiasm. Of the millions of things of value to learn, I decide what few we have time for. The choices are mine. Curiosity has no important place in my work, only conformity.

In lesson five I teach that your self-respect should depend on an observer's measure of your worth. My kids are constantly evaluated and judged. A monthly report, impressive in its precision, is sent into students' homes to spread approval or to mark exactly -- down to a single percentage point -- how dissatisfied with their children parents should be.

In lesson six I teach children that they are being watched. I keep each student under constant surveillance and so do my colleagues. There are no private spaces for children; there is no private time. Class change lasts 300 seconds to keep promiscuous fraternization at low levels. Students are encouraged to tattle on each other, even to tattle on their parents. Of course I encourage parents to file their own child's waywardness, too.

I assign "homework" so that this surveillance extends into the household, where students might otherwise use the time to learn something unauthorized, perhaps from a father or mother, or by apprenticing to some wiser person in the neighborhood.

The lesson of constant surveillance is that no one can be trusted, that privacy is not legitimate. Surveillance is an ancient urgency among certain influential thinkers; it was a central prescription set down by Calvin in the Institutes, by Plato in the Republic, by Hobbes, by Comte, by Francis Bacon. All these childless men discovered the same thing: Children must be closely watched if you want to keep a society under central control."


Posted By: cooan
Date Posted: Jan 16 2012 at 1:17am
There really have been a lot of talk concerning the issue though very little has been done to seek after how things are going to turn for the better at least in the coming years.  A lot of the upper tier lists are blaming the students for the poor showing but they are not the only ones to blame as this is very well an avenue in need of both parties in order to work properly.



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