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Goodbye Target in Middletown

Printed From: MiddletownUSA.com
Category: Middletown Area Business
Forum Name: Middletown Area Businesses
Forum Description: News, Information from and about area businesses
URL: http://www.middletownusa.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5605
Printed Date: Jan 19 2022 at 3:54pm


Topic: Goodbye Target in Middletown
Posted By: ktf1179
Subject: Goodbye Target in Middletown
Date Posted: Jan 10 2014 at 12:08pm

Posted: 11:26 a.m. Friday, Jan. 10, 2014

Target closing in Trotwood, Middletown

By http://www.daytondailynews.com/staff/breaking-news-staff/" rel="nofollow - Breaking News Staff

Target will close its stores in Trotwood and Middletown, according to an announcement made today.

Eight U.S. stores will close May 3, including stores in Trotwood and Middletown.

"The decision to close a Target store is not made lightly," said Target spokesperson Stefanie Mohr. "We typically decide to close a store after careful consideration of the long-term financial performance of a particular location. Typically, a store is closed as a result of seeing several years of decreasing profitability."

Employees will be offered an opportunity to transfer to a similar position at a nearby Target, she said. In Middletown, 80 employees will be effected, and in Trotwood, 90.

This story will be updated as additional information becomes available.




Replies:
Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Jan 10 2014 at 12:24pm
Here are some of the comments from Facebook so far
  • https://www.facebook.com/hattleyswifey09" rel="nofollow - Samantha Hattley Middletown has done nothing but go downhill and is getting worse. Target is probably closing due to the fact they don't sell heroin and meth. Its pathetic and Middletown is a hopeless lost cause.

    https://www.facebook.com/mobile/" rel="nofollow -
  • https://www.facebook.com/The1MDA" rel="nofollow">
    https://www.facebook.com/The1MDA" rel="nofollow - Mark David Anderson Poor Milddletown...
    https://www.facebook.com/jessica.schlabach" rel="nofollow">
  • https://www.facebook.com/jessica.schlabach" rel="nofollow - Jessica Schlabach Don't care never like Target anyway
    https://www.facebook.com/cindy.terrill.3" rel="nofollow">
  • https://www.facebook.com/cindy.terrill.3" rel="nofollow - Cindy Terrill Not another empty building come on Middletown.....
    https://www.facebook.com/angie.comer.52" rel="nofollow">
  • https://www.facebook.com/angie.comer.52" rel="nofollow - Angie Comer I don't shop target ne ways but almost every business is moving out ta middletown maybe that's a sign telling ppl to move out ta middletown.. I will be soon.
    https://www.facebook.com/Angel103068" rel="nofollow">
    • https://www.facebook.com/Angel103068" rel="nofollow - Angel Moore Yep...I just left that area myself.


  • https://www.facebook.com/rebecca.voltermanbreaks" rel="nofollow">
    https://www.facebook.com/rebecca.voltermanbreaks" rel="nofollow - Rebecca Volterman-Breaks That's a shame. However I will probably try to go to the closing sale if they have one and pay cash.
    https://www.facebook.com/angie.comer.52" rel="nofollow">
  • https://www.facebook.com/angie.comer.52" rel="nofollow - Angie Comer Angel Moore I'm fixing to move to I'm not from middletown but younger days had to move with my mom here for her job..
    https://www.facebook.com/kimberly.keenegraham" rel="nofollow">
  • https://www.facebook.com/kimberly.keenegraham" rel="nofollow - Kimberly Keene Graham Wow. I don't shop there but I am a bit shocked to hear this information.
    https://www.facebook.com/kevin45123" rel="nofollow">
  • https://www.facebook.com/kevin45123" rel="nofollow - Kevin Burton Walmart * will stay on top for a long, long time.
    https://www.facebook.com/jordan.willis.338" rel="nofollow">
    • https://www.facebook.com/jordan.willis.338" rel="nofollow - Jordan Willis https://www.facebook.com/Kroger" rel="nofollow - Kroger is better than Wal Mart https://www.facebook.com/walmart" rel="nofollow - Walmart sucks in my opinion

  • https://www.facebook.com/gitme1025" rel="nofollow - Robert Hill Diana Densler GinnFinn I haye walmart and love target so have fun
    https://www.facebook.com/gregg.coulter1" rel="nofollow">
  • https://www.facebook.com/gregg.coulter1" rel="nofollow - Gregg Coulter Waiting for this worthless Target store in Blue ash to close so we can all say "Told ya so" They forced it down our throats tho we kept 12 acres of woods from getting in the hands of the developers or it would have been a super Target and a Kohl's and a strip Mall.
    https://www.facebook.com/gina.vassolo" rel="nofollow">
  • https://www.facebook.com/gina.vassolo" rel="nofollow - Gina Flach https://www.facebook.com/carrie.p.bowman" rel="nofollow - Carrie Passmore Bowman https://www.facebook.com/hollynryan.taulbee" rel="nofollow - Holly N Ryan Taulbee is this your target you shop at
    https://www.facebook.com/cindy.stewart.12" rel="nofollow">
  • https://www.facebook.com/cindy.stewart.12" rel="nofollow - Cindy Stewart That sucks
    https://www.facebook.com/diana.denslerginn" rel="nofollow">
  • https://www.facebook.com/diana.denslerginn" rel="nofollow - Diana Densler Ginn They should close ALL TARGET, stores!
    https://www.facebook.com/jrisebo" rel="nofollow">
  • https://www.facebook.com/jrisebo" rel="nofollow - Jim Riseborough 2 out of 8 in dayton area. Not so good.
    https://www.facebook.com/aucdriv" rel="nofollow">
  • https://www.facebook.com/aucdriv" rel="nofollow - David Cross I suspect it wont be the first.
    https://www.facebook.com/tnhammond" rel="nofollow">
  • https://www.facebook.com/tnhammond" rel="nofollow - Timothy Noel Hammond Is everything gonna be marked down?
    https://www.facebook.com/kaos2897" rel="nofollow">
  • https://www.facebook.com/kaos2897" rel="nofollow - Karen Ostermann So sad!




Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Jan 10 2014 at 12:28pm
And  City Council think Middletown is rebounding, apparently not in the eyes of the people who live in this area


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jan 10 2014 at 1:55pm
Well, never patronized the store that much. Go to Lowes next door often. As I remember, Target, a French owned company, was the chain that wouldn't allow the Marines to stand by the doorway for their Toys For Tots program, nor let the Salvation Army place the kettles there at Christmas time. Not necessarily a big supporter of the military in this country or so I have heard. Bad publicity in that regard.

Still, bottom line......one less choice for the shoppers of Middletown as was the K-Mart exit. Sad to see.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: itsamee
Date Posted: Jan 10 2014 at 2:16pm
Maybe they can put some kind of place where I can trade my gold in for cash! I could sure use one of these (this is sarcasm, just in case you could not tell)

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Itsa me, mario!


Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Jan 10 2014 at 2:26pm
Target is not a French-owned company. 


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jan 10 2014 at 2:28pm
Someone a while back said tha Big Lots was moving from it's current location. How about moving to this location? More sq. ft and certainly a better location as Frickers, LaRosas and that strip mall behind White Castle sits on the old dump site. Notice how the parking lot is starting to get that "earth turning" unlevel look? Goes all the way over to the car wash/new school by the Auto Zone.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jan 10 2014 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by swohio75 swohio75 wrote:

Target is not a French-owned company. 



You are correct!

It is a Minnesota based company. Appreciate the correction. Don't know where I heard that info.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Jan 10 2014 at 4:19pm
How about a dicks sporting good store.


Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Jan 10 2014 at 5:35pm
Someone started a petition to save the Middletown Target at Change.org and there are already 200 signatures.


Posted By: Marcia Andrew
Date Posted: Jan 10 2014 at 5:41pm
Here's the link:
 
http://www.change.org/petitions/target-keep-target-middletown-open?share_id=DMwvzyUnVn&utm_campaign=signature_receipt&utm_medium=email&utm_source=share_petition" rel="nofollow -
Let's not just accept the decision as inevitable, let's try to convince Target to keep the store open.


Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Jan 10 2014 at 5:57pm
Good luck with that sincerely.



Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 10 2014 at 6:24pm
I love Target. I buy many groceries, Cliff bars, and love the pop corn and drink special. Don't want to drive to Dayton Mall or West Chester for my popcorn. Please stay! 

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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: da120757
Date Posted: Jan 11 2014 at 6:47am
I worked at Target from June 1995 when they opened on Roosevelt until September 2007.. We had good management in the store up until the time I left. and in my opinion they were struggling then to make sales. I am surprised they stayed open this long to be honest. I think the fiasco over the Black Friday Hacking of Accounts is not helping their business, but it happens, and it is sad that Middletown is loosing another big employer only to have another EMPTY Building... Sad!!


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 11 2014 at 3:42pm
This is enormously embarrassing. I initially thought Target was closing several stores in Ohio, and several across the nation. Not 8 nationwide, and two in Ohio.
The petition will have absolutely no impact. Target runs analytics and cross matches zip code where the store is shopped. The volume of consumption was too small, and they wanted a bump in proactively reacting to the credit card theft.
 
Where was the petition when AK Steel executives were leaving?
 
What does this show/ reflect associated the Towne Mall and east end "renaissance?"
 
Middletown is NOT an exit with foot traffic. Rather blatantly reflects- FORBES was right- one of 8 closing, the dying city called Middletown. If Middletown exit cannot sustain a profitable Target, how does it sustain a mall? The investors of the movie theater are obviously rethinking this locale.
 
As Carly Simon sang, "Killing Me Softly" with incompetence, corruption, and sheer reactionary focus years too late.
 
.     


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Jan 11 2014 at 4:10pm
OK

the movie people declined the option to purchase

Roberta Flack first did Killing Me Softly

It takes a lot of customer traffic spending $$ EVERY DAY to keep retail operational

No one ever WANTS to close a retail business. The CONSUMER ultimately decides who stays and who goes. Bemoaning after the fact is so hypocritical. Look into the mirror. We all decide what we have and how we live.....

Thanx 4 all of the kind words........

Been down to the Central University train station, bags packed--waiting for that train that we were guaranteed. Must be running late


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 11 2014 at 4:40pm
Good point sj.
 
Years of awaiting the train. The 3:10 to Yuma.
 
Correct: retail driven by economies of scale, volume on pennies per dollar, need many transactions and volume, or - negative income.
 
I have heard Kohl's is next, and Meijers. Who would have imagined UDF would cannabolize downtown and east end?  
 


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Jan 12 2014 at 9:28am
If things don't get fixed soon, we are going to be the next Trotwood. And our mall is going to end up like the Salem Mall. 


Posted By: da120757
Date Posted: Jan 12 2014 at 9:45am
I totally agree ktf1179.. I have lived here all my life and it gets worse everyday.. That is sad to say about your hometown that you have lived in for better than 50 years..


Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jan 12 2014 at 10:19am

Acclaro
I just heard that even the sales at Walmart here in Middletown are down ...

If in fact Walmart sales are down what does that tell you about the sales numbers of other retail businesses in this area?

 



Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Jan 12 2014 at 10:22am
what is sad about Trotwood, it use to be a nice community. My Grandparents use to live there for years, and it was a nice town in the 80's and early 90's. Then the neighborhood  my grandfather lived in started getting bad, plus his age, he ended up moving to Brookhaven in Brookville. After the people from the west end of Dayton moved into Trotwood, crime increased, and businesses moved out, and it became know in the surrounding areas as Rotwood. And once that happened Trotwood could not recover, no matter how hard the city and the mall tried to fix up the area. 

And now the same thing is happening with Middletown. We are getting the people from the poorer parts of Dayton and Cincinnati moving in and it is dragging down not only Middletown, but Hamilton, Lebanon, Franklin, Carlisle, and yes even certain part of old Springboro. 

Adding to this is the younger urban hipsters moving into downtown Cincinnati and Dayton, it is now displacing lower income people who use to live in that area to the suburbs.

I know we like to look the city level issuesm but this much bigger than just Middletown.

I am just not sure what can be done to slow this trend. 


Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Jan 12 2014 at 10:43am
JOBS. but who wants to move here for a job if there is any other option. The city has been mismanaged for several decades but the current council doesn't have a clue how to begin to help the recovery. How sad for Middletown!!!


Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: Jan 12 2014 at 10:48am

Now now folks you need to have a little more faith in City Hall.
We should not worry so much about the East End because City Hall has assured us that if they spends just a few more million of our tax dollars in “Their Downtown” building high end condos that the big buckers will flock to the downtown area and everything will be just duckie again.



Posted By: Paul Nagy
Date Posted: Jan 12 2014 at 12:06pm
Its been interesting to observe that Governors who have moved their states forward in the last four or five years have had similiar agendas. These priorities have helped their states move forward and I wonder why these priorities won't  work on the county and municipal levels. I believe strongly they would turn Middletown around but it would take 2-5 years of sticking to it. For what they are worth here they are. Would you come to Middletown with your business if the city was successful and publicizing these accomplishements when they are achieved? You bet your economy you would.
1. Improve the citiy's credit rating.
2. Increase the rainy day fund.
3. Maintain strong support for local education.
4. Encourage economic development (jobs). Especially in health and Research development areas.
5. Demonstrate pragmatism that will increase property values. (Doesn't require austerity but conservative practices.))
6. Reduce taxes.
7. Loosen up on regulations that keep businesses from coming to our city.
8. Do it all without cutting services.
These accomplishments will do more for the entire city overall and still allow "special interests" to prosper more.
Just thinking out loud.
Paul Nagy



Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 12 2014 at 2:36pm
I have a friend who is a Partner at one of top 'reputation management' firms in US. This is a service when a major crisis occurs to an individual, or company, organization. Tainting to Tylenol at J N J, as an example, Bernie Madoff association at Chase Bank, etc. Simply put....Middletown has had too many crisis occurrences, too much injury to its previous brand, and its now a soiled brand. Almost all believe its reputation is beyond repair. Others don't want their brand and reputation to be soiled by reputation. Hence, AKS- Atrium, countless others, move. The returned phone calls once returned....are no longer returned.       

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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Jan 12 2014 at 5:39pm
Yes we have a tainted name a good game plan in my mind would be to start marketing this town to business on other aspects like location, labor pool etc... And get their head out of the past we can't go back to the 50s or 60s.


Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Jan 12 2014 at 5:41pm
Did any one notice that Bass pro is building a new store just south of us? Were our leaders even aware of this? What a plus something like Bass pro could have been for this town and why not Middletown is close to Dayton and cinci market.


Posted By: da120757
Date Posted: Jan 12 2014 at 5:55pm
It was in the paper before Christmas about Bass Pro.


Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Jan 13 2014 at 1:24am
They should just bulldoze all useless buildings in Middletown, a good place to start would be the city building.


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Jan 13 2014 at 11:52am

Posted: 4:46 p.m. Sunday, Jan. 12, 2014

Residents oppose decision to close neighborhood Target stores

By Amanda Seitz

Staff Writer

MIDDLETOWN —

Local residents took to social media this weekend pleading for Target Corp. officials to reconsider their decision to shutter the Target store in Middletown and Trotwood.

Company officials announced Friday their plans to close, by May 3, eight stores nationwide, including the shopping centers located in Middletown at 6775 Roosevelt Parkway and in Trotwood at 2800 Shiloh Springs Road.

Disappointed shoppers used Facebook and other websites to convince company officials to change their minds. A Facebook group called ‘Save Middletown Target’ had more than 2,200 members by Saturday. Several of the group’s members urged other followers to call Target’s home offices in Minneapolis to appeal to officials there. One follower even suggested Middletown residents stop shopping at other stores to boost sales at the soon-to-be closed Target.

“We all may be small in comparison to a major company like Target … but fighting for this could make a big difference to a town many of us love very much,” Amie Earls wrote on the group’s Facebook page.

Rebecca Luebbe of Middletown, who was shopping Saturday afternoon at Target, said she was surprised to hear of the Middletown supermarket’s closing.

“My friends are big Target shoppers,” Luebbe said. “It’s kind of sad for the community because (in) Middletown, things keep closing and closing.”

Hours after the retailer announced closure plans, a petition on the website change.org begged corporate heads to keep the store running appeared.

“We need to keep good business in Middletown, Ohio, open,” the petition reads.

As of Saturday, nearly 800 people had signed the online petition. Some who signed the petition shared details about their shopping experience at the Middletown Target.

“My pharmacy is here,” Teri Gibson, who signed the petition, wrote on the website. “They know mine and my husband’s medical needs and have really been very helpful in keeping our meds in stock. The employees at this store are wonderful.”

Target spokeswoman Stefanie Mohr reiterated over the weekend that a “decision to close a Target store is not made lightly.”

Target currently operates nearly 1,800 stores across the U.S.




Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jan 13 2014 at 12:21pm
"Rebecca Luebbe of Middletown, who was shopping Saturday afternoon at Target, said she was surprised to hear of the Middletown supermarket’s closing"

OK, ISN'T TARGET MORE OF A VARIETY BIG BOX STORE RATHER THAN A SUPERMARKET?

"A Facebook group called ‘Save Middletown Target’ had more than 2,200 members by Saturday"

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, 2200 PEOPLE OUT OF A CITY OF 48,000 ISN'T GOING TO IMPRESS THEM NOR CHANGE THEIR MINDS. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THE MONEY. IF THE STORE MADE ENOUGH MONEY FOR THE CORPORATE FOLKS IN MINNESOTA, THIS WOULDN'T BE AN ISSUE. THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE OF THIS COMMUNITY.....JUST THEIR MONEY AND IF THE MONEY ISN'T THERE, IN THE QUANTITIES THEY PROJECT, THEY ARE LEAVING. THIS COMMUNITY SIMPLY DOESN'T MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO SUPPORT STORES LIKE THIS ON AN ON-GOING BASIS. LOW WAGES, NOT ENOUGH DISCRETIONARY SPENDING GOING ON HERE TO KEEP MONEY IN THE PIPELINE TO STIMULATE GROWTH. AGAIN, FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME, BETTER PAYING JOBS IN MIDDLETOWN WOULD BE A SOLUTION. THEY WILL COME AND STAY IF THE PEOPLE HAVE THE MONEY TO SPEND.

IT IS AS GOOD AS GONE I BELIEVE. NOW, IT FALLS IN THE LAP OF THE ECON. DEV. DEPT. AND HAMET. LET'S HOPE SHE FINDS A NEW TENANT FASTER THAH SHE FOUND ONE FOR THE OLD K-MART.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Jan 13 2014 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

"Rebecca Luebbe of Middletown, who was shopping Saturday afternoon at Target, said she was surprised to hear of the Middletown supermarket’s closing"
 NOW, IT FALLS IN THE LAP OF THE ECON. DEV. DEPT. AND HAMET. LET'S HOPE SHE FINDS A NEW TENANT FASTER THAH SHE FOUND ONE FOR THE OLD K-MART.


It's also in the lap of the building's owner (in this case, I believe according to Warren County records is Dayton-Hudson's which is Target's former parent whom now is part of Macys). Assuming the building is owned by Target (unless Dayton Hudsons still exists as a real estate holding company), I cannot imagine they will be quick to fill the space with another retailer. 




Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Jan 13 2014 at 2:01pm
The one thing going for re-development is that the building is not that old, since it was built in the 90's, and it is near I-75.

What do you think could go in the old spot?
Sam's Club, Costco, Menards, Home Depot, Best Buy,?


Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Jan 13 2014 at 2:23pm
City folks are probably saying "Wow, Didn't see that one coming"


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jan 13 2014 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by ktf1179 ktf1179 wrote:

The one thing going for re-development is that the building is not that old, since it was built in the 90's, and it is near I-75.

What do you think could go in the old spot?
Sam's Club, Costco, Menards, Home Depot, Best Buy,?




SQ. FOOTAGE OF TARGET ISN'T ENOUGH FOR ANY OF THESE STORES IS IT? TOO CLOSE TO LOWES FOR RIVAL HOME DEPOT/MENARDS TO LOCATE, RIGHT?

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: FmrMide81
Date Posted: Jan 13 2014 at 4:25pm
Well, that magnificent retail establishment "Weekend Emporium" moved into their last abandoned store-that's probably about the best you're gonna' get into this one!


Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Jan 13 2014 at 4:49pm
Dayton Hudson Corp sold all of their "non discount" department stores to Federated and changed their name to Target. Target trades on the NYSE. Dayton Hudson doesn't exist anymore. Target must own the property that their store is on.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 13 2014 at 5:04pm
Why don't these 'fake outrage' followers take to social media and have the city of Middletown pave streets?
Hypocritical endeavors.
 
There will be no major retailer moving there. 3rd Costco is being built in Centreville. Open this summer. I drive to Traders Joe, stop on way down at Krogers and Dorothy Lane at Austin Reed exit, then drive to Hunter IGA for their pizza and salad.
 
Get real cyber nuts, drive 20 minutes where the Target selection is 5x by Mall or W Chester. Perhaps spending a little more time shopping and spending would have been the proper solution?
 
As always...reactionary.
 
Suffer no fool(s) gladly.     
  

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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Jan 13 2014 at 5:10pm
^Don't know how "fake" the outrage is here. The Cincinnati Streetcar got back on track with 11,000 signatures. 2,000 likes can lead to some bad press, possibly enough to get the decision reversed.

The only issue with their current tactic is that they want BOTH the Trotwood and Middletown stores to stay open. The two campaigns should be separated, if anything. Trotwood could possibly keep their store through playing the race card, and Middletown's best shot is probably through betting on sprawl to the east and south. In particular, advocates should utilize the fact that Monroe is SW Ohio's fastest growing community, and is only growing as a selling point for keeping the store.


Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Jan 13 2014 at 5:18pm
Quote They should just bulldoze all useless buildings in Middletown, a good place to start would be the city building

A good place to start would be AK STEEL.

That place is what is shooting Middletown in the foot. I grew up in Middletown, and that monster probably caused me and my family irreplaceable harm through the air pollution it spewed. People don't want to move places where the risk of getting cancer unnecessarily is elevated, like by disgusting steel plants in Middletown.

If AK was demolished and its site remediated, imagine how much better the air and water quality in Middletown would be. And imagine what could be built there - a new Cincinnati-Dayton regional airport, a massive business park logistics hub (like what is in the southwest corner of West Chester Twp), and so on. Middletown doesn't need AK steel.

Kill it and people will come back.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 13 2014 at 5:32pm
Wrong T, on multiple fonts.
 
Private donations and a commitment to fund costs privately for 10 years is what got the street car gig running.
 
Agree about pollution, but kill AKS, its about doing that with its stock valuation, and Middletown is Detroit, will it is headed there...the movement is simply sooner.
 
I assure you a twitter and change. org will have no mitigating effect on Target. Perhaps edge innovation for items, but not p/l analysis. Their models have been run (regression analysis 5 years forward.
 
Most can handle the drive 15 minutes due N or S. 


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jan 14 2014 at 3:38am
Originally posted by Trotwood Trotwood wrote:

Quote They should just bulldoze all useless buildings in Middletown, a good place to start would be the city building



A good place to start would be AK STEEL.

That place is what is shooting Middletown in the foot. I grew up in Middletown, and that monster probably caused me and my family irreplaceable harm through the air pollution it spewed. People don't want to move places where the risk of getting cancer unnecessarily is elevated, like by disgusting steel plants in Middletown.

If AK was demolished and its site remediated, imagine how much better the air and water quality in Middletown would be. And imagine what could be built there - a new Cincinnati-Dayton regional airport, a massive business park logistics hub (like what is in the southwest corner of West Chester Twp), and so on. Middletown doesn't need AK steel.

Kill it and people will come back.


FUNNY, I'VE LIVED IN MIDDLETOWN FOR DECADES MYSELF AND I SEE (AND REMEMBER) ARMCO (AK) IN A DIFFERENT LIGHT.

ARMCO BUILT THIS TOWN. IN THE 50'S AND 60'S, WHEN THIS TOWN WAS BEING RUN CORRECTLY, AND WAS A GREAT PLACE TO LIVE, ARMCO MADE IT ALL POSSIBLE. THE COMPANY PROVIDED THE BEST WAGES/STANDARD OF LIVING IN THE AREA, EVEN HIGHER THAN THE PAPER MILLS. IT ALLOWED PEOPLE WITH A HIGH SCHOOL (AND NON-HIGH SCHOOL) EDUCATION TO LIVE WELL BEYOND THEIR EDUCATION LEVELS AND IN AREAS OF TOWN WHERE MANAGERS LIVED IF THEY CHOSE TO DO SO. IN THE 50'S AND 60'S, THERE WAS ORANGE IRON OXIDE ALL OVER EVERYTHING IN TOWN. HOWEVER, SINCE THE EPA CLAMPED DOWN ON THIS POLLUTION, AND ARMCO/AK INSTALLED SCRUBBERS ON THE STACKS, THE AIR HAS NEVER BEEN CLEANER AROUND HERE.

EVEN TODAY, IN THE ANEMIC STATE AK STEEL IS IN, COMPARED TO YESTERYEAR, IT MAKES A CONTRIBUTION, ALBEIT A MUCH SMALLER ONE TO THE COMMUNITY WHILE ALL THE PAPER MILLS HAVE LONG VANISHED. AK PROVIDES THE ONLY DECENT WAGES IN THIS CITY.

EVEN IF YOU BULLDOZED AK, THE POLLUTION IN THE SOIL WOULD MAKE THE SITE A HAZARD FOR DECADES TO COME AND WOULD BE UNINHABITABLE FOR ANY NEW DEVELOPMENT. IMO, ALL YOU WOULD DO IS CREATE ANOTHER OPEN SPACE/"BROWN" SPACE, WHICH WE DON'T NEED HERE. GILLELAND AND HER CREW ARE DOING ENOUGH DAMAGE WITH THEIR "GREEN SPACE BLITZKREIG" WITHOUT ADDING TO THE OPEN SPACES AROUND HERE. NO, YOU TAKE AK OUT OF HERE AND THERE IS NO ATTRACTION AT ALL FOR JOB SEEKERS. WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN THE IMPACT OF THE GENERAL OFFICE PEOPLE AND RESEARCH LEAVING TOWN. YOU TAKE THE MAIN PLANT OUT OF HERE AND THE TOWN GOES WITH IT OVERNIGHT.

ON THE CONTRARY, "KILL IT AND PEOPLE WILL COME BACK" WILL NOT HAPPEN. MORE LIKE "KILL IT AND REMOVE ALL CHANCES FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE A SHOT AT DECENT PAYING EMPLOYMENT HERE". IF YOU TAKE AK OUT OF THE PICTURE, THE WAGE SCALE SLIDES DOWN TO CASHIER AT FAMILY DOLLAR WAGES, GAS STATION ATTENDANT AND CONVENIENT STORE WAGES/RETAIL AND FAST FOOD WAGE SCALES.....QUITE A GAP BETWEEN WHAT AK PAYS AND WHAT THE OTHER CHOICES IN TOWN PAY.

CANCER? THE MIAMI VALLEY HAS BEEN A SOURCE OF CANCER CONTACT FOR DECADES. ISN'T ALL CONTRIBUTED TO AK STEEL. MANY INDUSTRIES AROUND TO HELP ESCALATE THE CANCER RATE HERE. WE ARE AN INDUSTRIAL STATE AND WITH THE USE OF CHEMICALS, WE ARE PRONE TO CANCER CONTACT. GOES WITH THE TERRITORY.

AND PRAY TELL, WHAT WOULD THEY BUILD A NEW "CINCY-DAYTON AIRPORT" ON THAT SITE FOR? YA GOT A 7000 FT RUNWAY AT HOOK WITH MINIMAL ACTIVITY AND THE DAYTON AND CINCY AIRPORTS ARE LESS THAN AN HOUR AWAY. WHAT WOULD BE THE PURPOSE OF PLACING A FACILITY LIKE THAT HERE?

A BUSINESS PARK? SEE ABOVE FOR SOIL CLEANUP PREP BEFORE BUILDING. PLUS THE LOCATION TO I-75 ISN'T THE MOST IDEAL EITHER, RIGHT?

IMO, MIDDLETOWN DOES STILL NEED AK, EVEN IN THE SCALED DOWN VERSION. OTHERWISE, THERE GOES A MAJOR PORTION OF CITY TAXES COLLECTED IN PROPERTY AND PAYROLL AND THERE GOES AK'S CONTRIBUTION TO THE CITY. MIDDLETOWN IS A BLUE COLLARED STEEL TOWN FOREMOST. NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OF THERE. THE CITY LEADERS JUST NEED TO FIND REPLACEMENTS FOR WHAT HAS LEFT OR GONE OUT OF BUSINESS SINCE THE 70'S TO GO ALONG WITH AK. THEY HAVE FAILED MISERABLY SINCE THE 70'S IN DOING SO.    

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Jan 14 2014 at 4:36pm

Target closing blamed for Towne Mall stall


By http://www.journal-news.com/staff/rick-mccrabb/" rel="nofollow - Rick McCrabb

Staff Writer

MIDDLETOWN —

Just days after Target announced it was closing eight stores, including the one in the East End of Middletown, the owner of the Towne Mall Galleria said potential major tenants are “holding back” on signing leases.

George Ragheb, one of the owners of SA Mary Ohio, which purchased the mall in October 2012, said those tenants are evaluating the prospects for retail business in the Middletown area because they’re “concerned” why Target is closing. Target is located at 6775 Roosevelt Parkway, across the street from the mall.

Target officials said last week the locations in Middletown and Trotwood near Dayton were closing in May due to “seeing several years of decreasing profitability.”

Ragheb said he was hoping to sign several “major” tenants to fill the space in the former Dillard’s location, one of the mall’s anchors. He said negotiations are “continuing” with those tenants.

He said Wigs For A Change, one of the 11 new businesses that opened last year, has left the mall, and other retailers haven’t renewed their leases. He said another merchant signed a new lease, at a higher rate, and four tenants are considering opening mall locations.

Still, he said, he hopes to build several outlot spaces, in the 4,000-square-foot range. He called negotiations with three potential tenants “very, very close.” In September 2013, Ragheb described negotiations with major tenants the same way, but that was before Target’s announcement. He expected to name those tenants by the end 2013. Now that’s on hold, he said.

He believes once leases have been signed for the outlots and construction begins, the “big tenants” will move forward and finalize their leases.

When asked about business at the mall during the holidays, Ragheb described it as “excellent,” though he said some retailers reported lower sales than expected.

“All of my news is not excellent,” he said. “I want to be honest with you.”

Melody Palmer, owner of All About You Catering and Bakery, said foot traffic at the mall is “very slow,” though that’s typical after the holidays.

“It’s really quiet in here,” she said Tuesday afternoon.

Since she’s a caterer, Palmer said 10 percent of her sales are generated at the mall.

She hopes new tenants, whenever they come, generate enthusiasm and shoppers to the mall.

“I’m not giving up yet,” she said.

Ragheb said his company remains “committed” to the Towne Mall. The group has spent $3.3 million purchasing the 465,451-square-foot mall and other properties. They spent $850,000 on the mall, $1.2 million on Dillard’s and $1.25 million on Elder-Beerman. The land and building were valued at $9.48 million, the auditor’s office said.

“We knew the risks we were taking on,” he said. “But we don’t see any red lights flashing. There will be a lot of positives coming our way in the next 30 days.”


Since the sale of Towne Mall Galleria more than one year ago, The Journal-News has covered the latest developments of the deal with in-depth stories. Count on us to continue this coverage of the mall and its impact on the Butler County economy.



Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 14 2014 at 5:15pm
Hmmm...
 
Amazing it a period of a few days, the big box potential retailers had expressed concerns associated with the Target store.
 
Furthermore, why would not a big box retailer if they had the models for foot traffic, move into the Mall, when they have more presence in the Target location? Preferable to have their own space, as the foot traffic at The Mall is non existent, with exception of the 'walkers.'
 
It seems the promises for big box retailers was associated with the 'hook' for the smaller niche players, ergo, 'hold on, the big guys are coming with lots of people.'
 
Now the school wanted to move east as the highway drives people and foot traffic. Target discovered the Middletown exit doesn't drive much foot traffic nor interest. Seems there is surely, considerable spin about downtown, school needs, retail needs (the big box guys are just around the corner, don't cancel that lease), and the Atrium was going to drive a massive biomed campus.
 
I start my day every morning saying this about Middletown, its woes, and lack of foundation. A bridge sitting on quicksand.
 
       http://youtu.be/kafVkPxjLYg" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/kafVkPxjLYg


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: Bill
Date Posted: Jan 14 2014 at 7:30pm
How desperate and clueless must these new owners be to have to throw out the flimsy excuse of the Target closing?  As if these "big box" retailers don't do market research of their own.
 
And weren't we going to hear a big announcement by December 31st?
 
These scam artist clowns <--> Middletown = both deserve each other


Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Jan 14 2014 at 7:53pm
Originally posted by acclaro acclaro wrote:

Wrong T, on multiple fonts.
 
Private donations and a commitment to fund costs privately for 10 years is what got the street car gig running.
 
Agree about pollution, but kill AKS, its about doing that with its stock valuation, and Middletown is Detroit, will it is headed there...the movement is simply sooner.
 
I assure you a twitter and change. org will have no mitigating effect on Target. Perhaps edge innovation for items, but not p/l analysis. Their models have been run (regression analysis 5 years forward.
 
Most can handle the drive 15 minutes due N or S. 
Agreed that private donations and the commitment to fund the streetcar privately are probably what pushed Kevin Flynn, the 6th council member who was necessary to override Cranley's veto, to vote for the streetcar. But even if he would have voted against the streetcar, by this point most of Cincinnati had realized how moronic the decision to cancel that far into the project was and the national media would have begun their field day. And that would have led to a national embarrassment, with a questionable outcome. It would have been interesting to see the circus around that event, but alas I am very glad it did not happen.


And AK is weak, so it's the perfect time to kill. If Middletown plays their cards right, the site could be remediated with AK and CERCLA funding in time for the Greentree exchange. Assuming that's still probably about 10-15 years off, now would be the time to kill.

As far as the petition goes, what's the alternative? If the people of Middletown want a Target, they have to act and make it happen. A good case to keep the store open could be done using MORE regression models based on sprawl patterns in teh region and how the market surrounding the store will grow in the next 5,10 years (taht's a report Target likely didn't run, I doubt they really took the time to do a thorough analysis of the area and understand the merging of Cincinnati and Dayton).

But if Middletown citizens don't give a sh!t then they let them sit on their a$$ and do nothing. However, if they don't make an effort to have a nice town then there sure as heck shouldn't be b!tching when their town goes to sh!t. Because it is their fault, and only their fault.




Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Jan 14 2014 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

 
FUNNY, I'VE LIVED IN MIDDLETOWN FOR DECADES MYSELF AND I SEE (AND REMEMBER) ARMCO (AK) IN A DIFFERENT LIGHT.

ARMCO BUILT THIS TOWN. IN THE 50'S AND 60'S, WHEN THIS TOWN WAS BEING RUN CORRECTLY, AND WAS A GREAT PLACE TO LIVE, ARMCO MADE IT ALL POSSIBLE. THE COMPANY PROVIDED THE BEST WAGES/STANDARD OF LIVING IN THE AREA, EVEN HIGHER THAN THE PAPER MILLS. IT ALLOWED PEOPLE WITH A HIGH SCHOOL (AND NON-HIGH SCHOOL) EDUCATION TO LIVE WELL BEYOND THEIR EDUCATION LEVELS AND IN AREAS OF TOWN WHERE MANAGERS LIVED IF THEY CHOSE TO DO SO. IN THE 50'S AND 60'S, THERE WAS ORANGE IRON OXIDE ALL OVER EVERYTHING IN TOWN. HOWEVER, SINCE THE EPA CLAMPED DOWN ON THIS POLLUTION, AND ARMCO/AK INSTALLED SCRUBBERS ON THE STACKS, THE AIR HAS NEVER BEEN CLEANER AROUND HERE.

They did build Middletown. But it's not 1950, and it hasn't been for 64 years. Those jobs went abroad, and they aren't coming back. Not unless our standard of living goes way down and technological advances regress.

And agreed the air has never been cleaner. But that doesn't make it clean. 

Quote EVEN TODAY, IN THE ANEMIC STATE AK STEEL IS IN, COMPARED TO YESTERYEAR, IT MAKES A CONTRIBUTION, ALBEIT A MUCH SMALLER ONE TO THE COMMUNITY WHILE ALL THE PAPER MILLS HAVE LONG VANISHED. AK PROVIDES THE ONLY DECENT WAGES IN THIS CITY.
What about Miami University, Cincinnati State, Atrium Medical Center, Precision Strip, Kokosing, First Financial? And more could come - look at the 800 jobs coming to Moraine from Fuyao in China, the 1,000 jobs coming the Union from P&G, etc. There's a lot of potential for all new jobs without AK's death grip.

Quote EVEN IF YOU BULLDOZED AK, THE POLLUTION IN THE SOIL WOULD MAKE THE SITE A HAZARD FOR DECADES TO COME AND WOULD BE UNINHABITABLE FOR ANY NEW DEVELOPMENT. IMO, ALL YOU WOULD DO IS CREATE ANOTHER OPEN SPACE/"BROWN" SPACE, WHICH WE DON'T NEED HERE. GILLELAND AND HER CREW ARE DOING ENOUGH DAMAGE WITH THEIR "GREEN SPACE BLITZKREIG" WITHOUT ADDING TO THE OPEN SPACES AROUND HERE. NO, YOU TAKE AK OUT OF HERE AND THERE IS NO ATTRACTION AT ALL FOR JOB SEEKERS. WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN THE IMPACT OF THE GENERAL OFFICE PEOPLE AND RESEARCH LEAVING TOWN. YOU TAKE THE MAIN PLANT OUT OF HERE AND THE TOWN GOES WITH IT OVERNIGHT.
Superfund. And suing AK to clean it up. That's how it would get done.

Quote ON THE CONTRARY, "KILL IT AND PEOPLE WILL COME BACK" WILL NOT HAPPEN. MORE LIKE "KILL IT AND REMOVE ALL CHANCES FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE A SHOT AT DECENT PAYING EMPLOYMENT HERE". IF YOU TAKE AK OUT OF THE PICTURE, THE WAGE SCALE SLIDES DOWN TO CASHIER AT FAMILY DOLLAR WAGES, GAS STATION ATTENDANT AND CONVENIENT STORE WAGES/RETAIL AND FAST FOOD WAGE SCALES.....QUITE A GAP BETWEEN WHAT AK PAYS AND WHAT THE OTHER CHOICES IN TOWN PAY.
For the engineering positions, sure it's a good wage. But at what cost? I have close family friends who work 80+ hours a week at that mill with 30+ years of senority. They work you to death - no wonder their employment reviews are among the lowest in the area.

Quote CANCER? THE MIAMI VALLEY HAS BEEN A SOURCE OF CANCER CONTACT FOR DECADES. ISN'T ALL CONTRIBUTED TO AK STEEL. MANY INDUSTRIES AROUND TO HELP ESCALATE THE CANCER RATE HERE. WE ARE AN INDUSTRIAL STATE AND WITH THE USE OF CHEMICALS, WE ARE PRONE TO CANCER CONTACT. GOES WITH THE TERRITORY.
Agreed. But in Butler/Warren Counties, and Middletown specifically, AK is the 800-pound gorilla in the room when it comes to pollution.

Quote AND PRAY TELL, WHAT WOULD THEY BUILD A NEW "CINCY-DAYTON AIRPORT" ON THAT SITE FOR? YA GOT A 7000 FT RUNWAY AT HOOK WITH MINIMAL ACTIVITY AND THE DAYTON AND CINCY AIRPORTS ARE LESS THAN AN HOUR AWAY. WHAT WOULD BE THE PURPOSE OF PLACING A FACILITY LIKE THAT HERE?
Hook wouldn't factor into the equation. CVG and DAY would close, and combine into a new hub airport between the two cities which could be competitive with other major hub airports like Detroit, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Charlotte, etc.

The idea has been kicked around for a while now, very informally so but it can be assumed there has been higher level planning as well. Here's some more info and further discussion:
http://www.urbancincy.com/2010/03/cincinnatis-airport-location-failure/" rel="nofollow - http://www.urbancincy.com/2010/03/cincinnatis-airport-location-failure/
http://www.city-data.com/forum/cincinnati/1240354-should-cincinnati-dayton-share-airport.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.city-data.com/forum/cincinnati/1240354-should-cincinnati-dayton-share-airport.html

And the most ideal location would be Middletown. Right on top of AK Steel and SunCoke.

Quote A BUSINESS PARK? SEE ABOVE FOR SOIL CLEANUP PREP BEFORE BUILDING. PLUS THE LOCATION TO I-75 ISN'T THE MOST IDEAL EITHER, RIGHT?
With Greentree Rd. it would be an ideal location. The key would be to get the tax structure right.

Quote IMO, MIDDLETOWN DOES STILL NEED AK, EVEN IN THE SCALED DOWN VERSION. OTHERWISE, THERE GOES A MAJOR PORTION OF CITY TAXES COLLECTED IN PROPERTY AND PAYROLL AND THERE GOES AK'S CONTRIBUTION TO THE CITY. MIDDLETOWN IS A BLUE COLLARED STEEL TOWN FOREMOST. NOTHING TO BE ASHAMED OF THERE. THE CITY LEADERS JUST NEED TO FIND REPLACEMENTS FOR WHAT HAS LEFT OR GONE OUT OF BUSINESS SINCE THE 70'S TO GO ALONG WITH AK. THEY HAVE FAILED MISERABLY SINCE THE 70'S IN DOING SO.

And why have they failed miserably? A lot of the reason is probably because it is hard to sell the image of a nice, sterling town with a giant steel mill. It's kinda like trying to sell people on moving to a subdivision abutting Mt. Rumpke - not going to happen.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 14 2014 at 9:06pm
T, a quick rebuttal on your three prongs:
1) Cincinnati street car. The Mayor won the race based upon his commitment to kill the street car. There would have been no national outrage.  Mallory funded it as a shill for Obama, and Obama, for pulling Cincinnati. When outsiders funded it, it moved forward. Social media had  nothing to do with it.
2) Kill AKS. The logic behind this is so flawed it is unworthy of a serious response. As far as merging Dayton and Cincinnati, the facts reflect just the opposite. Indeed, Ohio has been losing population for years, and this trend is not reversing. Your reference to (inferential statistical) modeling does not reflect growth patterns. What is taking place is geographic cannabolism, that is, people and companies are moving from a county or area, to another, but there is no back filling of the migration. There is no net positive gain in population and intersection. I can cite statistical flight details associated with both Greater Cinci and the Dayton airport, and traffic which has been stagnant, not growing, as carriers cut back on inbound/ outbound traffic, but the point is- there is no need and there will be no development of a middle tier regional airport. As for any population intersection, it is in Warren Cty, south Montgomery, Warren, and northern Hamilton. It is not and will not, be Butler.
3) It would have been appropriate to have shopped at the Target to keep it open, not a silly social trend that is going nowhere.  
Large retailers do analytics daily on sku's, ABC stratification, categories, replenishment, what sells in this zip code vs 30 minutes down the highway. For years, Target has expanded its sq footage into more food variety, a small grocery section, which Middletown does not have. Numbers drove their decision and no 'don't close because I like the woman who makes my popcorn' will have any impact. Maybe they should be chasing Wainscott and the AKS 375 execs back to Middletown?
 
Its over.
        

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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: Bocephus
Date Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 1:49am
Blaming Target for not delivering on their promise of new tenants by the end of 2013> Priceless. Who is this wanker Ragheb and does he really think us Hillbilly's here in Middletucky are that ignorant? Did you catch the part where it says that one of the present tenants signed a new lease at a higher rate? Thats why Dunhams left (yes I'm bitter) this guy is a riot LOL who the hell wrote this article can't we get a newspaper that does Middletown news?


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 5:21am
Trotwood:

In my earlier days, I would’ve copied your posts…and then pasted and shredded them...point-by-point. I no longer have the energy or the inclination to do so.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not just some prankster, having a go at us poor, down-at-heel Middletonians, nor some collegian looking for a laugh, but that you are just sadly ill-informed. Therefore I will just highlight a few of the many illogical and inconsistent points in your arguments, and rebut them.

First, you argue that we should “kill” AK Steel, so that other ventures could thrive. You argue that there are other local employers paying high wages. You mention “Miami University, Cincinnati State, Atrium Medical Center, Precision Strip, and Kokosing”. Perhaps you don’t understand that Precision Strip and Kokosing are in this community SOLELY because AK Steel is here. If the AK Middletown Works closes, the Middletown presence of these two businesses will certainly also close. AK is also the driving force behind the existence of Atrium, Miami Middletown, and Cinci State. Study the history (and the benefactors) of all of these organizations to understand the significance of AKS.

Second, you argue that AK Steel will pay for a significant portion of the remediation of their abandoned plant site, AFTER we “kill” them. Perhaps you don’t understand that by “killing” AK Middletown Works, AKS would surely be driven into bankruptcy. A bankrupt AKS won’t be paying to remediate anything!!!

Third, perhaps you don’t understand the amount of real estate required for a major international airport versus the acreage of the AKS facilities here in Middletown. AK Middletown is less than two square miles. A major airport such as you envision would require a minimum of SIX (and more likely nine) square miles! (As a point of comparison, I believe that ALL of Middletown is only about five square miles.) If a new, major airport was to be built here, you would not have to worry about Middletown…it would take not only the AK property, but the ENTIRE footprint of the City Middletown (and likely part of Monroe) to make it happen.

Fourth, your dream of a Greentree Road/I-75 interchange is highly unlikely! If I am not mistaken, Federal guidelines demand at least two miles between any NEW interstate interchange and an existing one. The present Middletown and Monroe interchanges (both very recently rebuilt) are only two miles apart. It would take light-years of red tape and decades of political wrangling to even come close to building an interchange ANYWHERE along I-75 between Rt. 63 and Rt. 122 (or between 122 and 123, as far as that goes).

However, I do not totally disagree with you. You state:
“But if Middletown citizens don't give a sh!t then they let them sit on their a$$ and do nothing. However, if they don't make an effort to have a nice town then there sure as heck shouldn't be b!tching when their town goes to sh!t. Because it is their fault, and only their fault.”

You are correct with those remarks. Too many have “sat on their a$$es and did nothing” for too long. They have left the fortunes of their town up to too few for too long, without bothering to become informed or to vote. It IS "their fault, and only their fault.”

Unfortunately, sending a cyber-petition to Target will not help with these circumstances.


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 8:07am
Excellent analysis Mike P.
 
While I agree completely regarding apathy, I have spoken to many people regarding voting. If I may summarize the feedback I have received, it is:
 
1) Generally, its the same people running, or the same mindset. The lack of diversification (ergo choices) has been a problem for years.
 
2) Retaliation. Middletown has been known for years as a city that has individuals in city hall that yield "payback" power. Intimidation has led to the appearance of apathy, when indeed, its not apathy, but outright fear. This is a small sampling over years I have gotten. And finally, with MMF, they created a system that rather stacks the decks. When a few council members can rain make 50 K from a few businesses, it makes for a rather uneven playing field.
 
This leads to an outcome of the same people making the same mistakes....often. 


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 8:58am
I have heard rumor that the Middletown Target store was severely fined for putting out, and selling video games before there release date. But that still needs to be verified.


Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 9:51am
How far apart are Austin Pike exchange and Rt.725 (Dayton Mall) exit? Just asking.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 10:09am
ktf, I cannot state with any certainty Target may or may not have sold items early, but I can state Target runs their inventory turns well. It would not be consistent with Target's practices to have any store receive an item weeks premature (that's inventory sitting that negatively impacts their inventory turn), which also would be sold prematurely. So, I doubt firstly, Target Middletown got product early; secondly, I doubt it would be sold early, as the sku would be flagged and caught in their database upload at corporate in Mn immediately, and the store would be smacked.
When that store was built, Target partnered with also Mn based Kohl's to share building/ construction cost. They have left that construction model and now opt for a model like Kroger, where they build many stores around them, which they rent, which absorbs the capitial expense for their building, such as West Chester, where they own the strip.
Middletown closing was solely based upon p/l; nothing more, nothing less, and a small store that doesn't fit their current mega store foot print model.  

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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 10:29am
I would not be surprised if they open a new Target off SR. 73, SR 741, or Austin Blvd in Springboro. 


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 10:40am
Agreed. These retailers the size of Kohl's, Target, Costco, others, study for years, traffic trends, population, and usually find a pt of intersection at major highways (Costco is magnificent ) at this and then they buy property many times 10 years before a store is even built. As I indicated in a previous post, they also know even though you may live in an area by matching your billing zip code on a credit card, they cross match that with the stores you frequent (live in Middletown but shop in West Chester Target, Costco, Springdale, etc), and can predict if it is worthwhile to continue operations against p/l. This decision was made after years of analysis, not a gut decision or reaction to credit card theft. In fact, as a shareholder, it makes perfect sense. 

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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: processor
Date Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 11:29am
Acclaro. I agree with your points except Kohl's is Milwaukee based not MN.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 12:04pm
Thanks processor.
 
Before the Kohl's KPO I recall in 1995, the senior management bought Main Street stores, which had a large foot print in Chicagoland, St Paul/ Minne, and parts of Michigan. My reference should have been stated, "Great Lake" affinity, as Kohl's and Target have for years, had Sr management swaps, and both have had a large Mn presence. Of course, there is a kindred spirit and long-term partnership with Kohl's and Target associated with geographics. I believe Best Buy is head-quartered in Minneapolis, but this is from memory.     
 
Speaking of retail, Costco and its Kirkland brand, is bought from the world's top brands and is made exclusively for Costco at standards which exceed that brand. They sell Greygoose vodka that is actually aged 1-2 years longer than GG "cures" it.
 
Between Costco, Sam's, Kroger's, Walmart, and the massive retailers, the competition is so fierce, on occasion, they have to prune. For Middletown and Trotwood, it was time to prune.


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by over the hill over the hill wrote:

How far apart are Austin Pike exchange and Rt.725 (Dayton Mall) exit? Just asking.


Going I-75 northbound-----Austin Blvd.----just after Austin is 675 north and the next exit </= to a quarter mile----Rt 725 Dayton Mall exit. Like being in a Groundhog Day movie, they are on my way to work.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 8:56pm
SO THE AUSTIN PIKE AND 725 EXITS ARE CLOSER THAN 2 MILES


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 9:03pm
yes in fact you have Austin Pike > I-675 exit and on ramps > 725 all with in a mile of each other. It make for a mess getting on and off the exits but it is doable. 


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 15 2014 at 9:48pm
Viet Vet; you were correct Target is French based in Paris.
What ads to the confusion is there is the lower scale brand, which is in Middletown, called Target.
Then, there is the European French upscale brand named Targete, which is pronpouned, Tar je, like de jay. I am sure that is what you were thinking, Targe. :D 

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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jan 16 2014 at 12:43am
I’ve been out of the engineering and construction loop for over 15 years. Either I erred in my recollection, or the design standards have changed. As of mid-2007 (and according to the U. S. Department of Transportation, Federal Highway Administration):
6.2.2 Interchange Configuration and Spacing
Interchanges, when spaced too closely along an Interstate corridor, negatively affect the traffic operations and safety performance of the Interstate. When evaluating the interval at which interchanges will be located, factors such as spacing between ramps, auxiliary lanes, weaving areas, and signing between interchanges need to be scrutinized. The minimum spacing for urban interchanges specified in the AASHTO Interstate Access Guide is 1 mile (3 miles in rural areas)."

A worse error that I made was in stating the area of Middletown to be “five square miles”. I should’ve said that it is about “twenty-five square miles”.

I regret any inconvenience that these two errors may have caused. However, the essence of my message remains just as valid.


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jan 16 2014 at 12:59am
Originally posted by over the hill over the hill wrote:

SO THE AUSTIN PIKE AND 725 EXITS ARE CLOSER THAN 2 MILES
No! The distance between the Austin Pike interchange and the Route 725 interchange is a little more than three miles.

(Remember: The distance between interchanges is measured along the centerline of the interstate between the intersection point of the centerlines of the roadways of each of the interchanges, and not from the end of one interchange’s entrance ramp to the start of the next interchange’s exit ramp.)


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Jan 16 2014 at 6:22am
Sorry Mike Presta, Acclaro, and others, but I will not have a full rebuttal until later tonight or Friday..... no time at the moment.

In the meantime, I read over the most recent comments and thought I should provide this:

http://www.hamiltoncountyohio.gov/hcrpc/wtpd/Charrette%20Report.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.hamiltoncountyohio.gov/hcrpc/wtpd/Charrette%20Report.pdf

A Warren County planning document from Nov. 2013 detailing their proposal for a future Greentree Rd. interchange. The intersection is definitely possible, and I would assume probable.


Additionally, here's a link with detailing a brief summary of the "I-75 Plan", posted on planning.org
https://www.planning.org/news/daily/story.htm?story_id=194019797" rel="nofollow - https://www.planning.org/news/daily/story.htm?story_id=194019797

Both a Manchester Rd. interchange and a Greentree Rd. interchange are being studied. 


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 16 2014 at 7:22am
T, as I hold two patents, have taken startups to IPO generating $325 Mm in capitalization at open, and having written at least 40 strategic marketing plans in my career, I found the document an academic piece lacking in factual research, substance, and support. In fact, there was no footnoting, no support, and was using trivial landmarks to theorize horse parks, zoo expansions, and frankly, concepts in such scope it was laughable. There was no airport in there as you had initially stated, and once again it hinged upon, build it, and they will come.  I cannot conceive of funds from a county or state being given for this speculative document.
 
If I presented this to a Board of Directors, I would have been kicked out of the meeting in 15 minutes. Amateurish.
 
Timeline:  2-10 years, and it may come then. May and Will are two different activities.
 
By the way, what happened to the Manchester deal?  


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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jan 16 2014 at 7:26am
Trotwood:

Perhaps you missed this statement in the APA article that you linked:
"Sams said both I-75 interchanges are in the plan, but that the one proposed at Greentree Road is more likely to come to fruition than one sought at the Manchester Road crossing. Ohio Department of Transportation officials did not respond to questions about the interchange plans."

I do have one question: Were these planning meetings held in Colorado?


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 16 2014 at 7:52am
T, I put the document you provided at the same level of Obama's waste of $200 Mm for manufacturing innovation in NC, to save Kay Hagal, Senator, from defeat. $ wasted w/o rationale knowledge or consideration for creating impact. Another example of enormous government waste. The worse problem in southwestern Ohio is the breakdown on I-75 from Cincinnati until hitting 275, from adequate east/ west land expansion. All the wasted funds on 75 to have the bottleneck for the 20 mile stretch from 275 to the Ohio River is difficult to accept. Then, the $3 Bb the group wants to fund to build a new bridge over the Ohio River to have tows charged. Madness.
Urban planning has its place to avoid urban sprawl, but the 'study' leaves much to be desired. Glittering generalities just doesn't 'get er done.'  

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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Jan 16 2014 at 12:03pm
Trotwood:

"Both a Manchester Rd. interchange and a Greentree Rd. interchange are being studied"

They have been looking at Manchester Rd. for many years, off and on. The last report I heard was that, at the time, there is no need to construct an exit because of the proximity of the 122-Middletown and 123 Lebanon/Frankin exits. They both feed meaninful off highway activity. The Manchester Rd. area does not as it empties out to a more rural setting. Other than the hospital traffic to and from work, a Manchester Rd. exit would be nominally used wouldn't it? Union Rd. and the rural road feeding it don't supply enough traffic count to justify an exit at this location. Sure would be convenient for all of us living in NE Middletown rather than to go the 122 or 123 routes to I-75. I'd appreciate it on my way to Dayton everyday. As it is now, gotta travel through Franklin to reach 123/73 and I-75.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Jan 18 2014 at 11:13am
Originally posted by acclaro acclaro wrote:

T, as I hold two patents, have taken startups to IPO generating $325 Mm in capitalization at open, and having written at least 40 strategic marketing plans in my career, I found the document an academic piece lacking in factual research, substance, and support. In fact, there was no footnoting, no support, and was using trivial landmarks to theorize horse parks, zoo expansions, and frankly, concepts in such scope it was laughable. There was no airport in there as you had initially stated, and once again it hinged upon, build it, and they will come.  I cannot conceive of funds from a county or state being given for this speculative document.
 
If I presented this to a Board of Directors, I would have been kicked out of the meeting in 15 minutes. Amateurish.
 
Timeline:  2-10 years, and it may come then. May and Will are two different activities.
 
By the way, what happened to the Manchester deal?  
I'll start here.

Congrats on your claimed success, but in the context of this discussion I don't think it is relevant. And you could be a computer program, a troll, anything - I cannot verify your claimed identity. Isn't that the point of one of these type discussions - anonymity so a there is a lack of personality bias allowing for the true issue to be discussed?

This document I linked are THE most recent documents about Manchester Rd and Greentree Rd. The one is complete with the attendance roster from the planners attending the event. For additional verification, if you really want it, probably could be accessed by a simple e-mail to their offices asking if they were in attendance at the planning events.

And yes, the airport was not mentioned in the links posted. But it has been speculated for many years - take a minute to read through the discussion on City-Data about the topic (warning - over 200 posts) to find some useful links about it. 



Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Jan 18 2014 at 11:37am
Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

Trotwood:

In my earlier days, I would’ve copied your posts…and then pasted and shredded them...point-by-point. I no longer have the energy or the inclination to do so.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not just some prankster, having a go at us poor, down-at-heel Middletonians, nor some collegian looking for a laugh, but that you are just sadly ill-informed. Therefore I will just highlight a few of the many illogical and inconsistent points in your arguments, and rebut them.

First, you argue that we should “kill” AK Steel, so that other ventures could thrive. You argue that there are other local employers paying high wages. You mention “Miami University, Cincinnati State, Atrium Medical Center, Precision Strip, and Kokosing”. Perhaps you don’t understand that Precision Strip and Kokosing are in this community SOLELY because AK Steel is here. If the AK Middletown Works closes, the Middletown presence of these two businesses will certainly also close. AK is also the driving force behind the existence of Atrium, Miami Middletown, and Cinci State. Study the history (and the benefactors) of all of these organizations to understand the significance of AKS.

Second, you argue that AK Steel will pay for a significant portion of the remediation of their abandoned plant site, AFTER we “kill” them. Perhaps you don’t understand that by “killing” AK Middletown Works, AKS would surely be driven into bankruptcy. A bankrupt AKS won’t be paying to remediate anything!!!

Third, perhaps you don’t understand the amount of real estate required for a major international airport versus the acreage of the AKS facilities here in Middletown. AK Middletown is less than two square miles. A major airport such as you envision would require a minimum of SIX (and more likely nine) square miles! (As a point of comparison, I believe that ALL of Middletown is only about five square miles.) If a new, major airport was to be built here, you would not have to worry about Middletown…it would take not only the AK property, but the ENTIRE footprint of the City Middletown (and likely part of Monroe) to make it happen.

Fourth, your dream of a Greentree Road/I-75 interchange is highly unlikely! If I am not mistaken, Federal guidelines demand at least two miles between any NEW interstate interchange and an existing one. The present Middletown and Monroe interchanges (both very recently rebuilt) are only two miles apart. It would take light-years of red tape and decades of political wrangling to even come close to building an interchange ANYWHERE along I-75 between Rt. 63 and Rt. 122 (or between 122 and 123, as far as that goes).

However, I do not totally disagree with you. You state:
“But if Middletown citizens don't give a sh!t then they let them sit on their a$$ and do nothing. However, if they don't make an effort to have a nice town then there sure as heck shouldn't be b!tching when their town goes to sh!t. Because it is their fault, and only their fault.”

You are correct with those remarks. Too many have “sat on their a$$es and did nothing” for too long. They have left the fortunes of their town up to too few for too long, without bothering to become informed or to vote. It IS "their fault, and only their fault.”

Unfortunately, sending a cyber-petition to Target will not help with these circumstances.

I was born and raised very close to Middletown city limits. Since then I moved away but am now back in the area for college, so if you really want you could count me as one of those "collegians looking for a luagh" (or if we were in Hamilton, a "young professional" would work just fine). Can you verify my identity - I doubt it, but that's my alibi. 

First off, I thought Precision Strip and Kokosing were not that tied to Middletown? I purposefully left SunCoke off the list because they would close their site if AK Middletown Works closed. But yes, if they are that closely tied, that would be more jobs lost if AK left. 

My rebuttal - look at Dayton. 10,000 jobs lost in 2008 just from Delphi alone. That doesn't even include the fact that GM Moraine left, losing another 2,000 jobs, NCR left with 1,500 jobs, and I'm sure there were a ton of suppliers that had to close, downsize, etc. after those losses. But the area is coming back. Fuyao is bringing 800 jobs to GM Moraine, all of the former Delphi sites have been re-purposed, UD bought the NCR HQ and is using the space to create high-paying research jobs, GE is rapidly expanding in the area because Dayton has a large, skilled, and employable workforce, and so on. Looking in hindsight, Delphi, GM, and NCR pulling out of Dayton was probably one of the best things that could have happened, because it gave everyone in the area a kick in the pants to realize complacency wasn't the answer. Pittsburgh is now booming, but had to face those realities in the 1980's when it was really "the Pitts". New York realized this in the 19780's with the crime epidemic, along with Portland and Seattle in the same era when they were decidedly uncool, smelly, dirty fishing ports. 

Middletown hasn't been kicked in the a$$ yet, and it needs it. That's probably a lot of the reason why you all are mad at current city leaders - they are complacent. AK is the holy grail that "cannot be disturbed" and "must be kept happy", in their minds. I assume their attitude is everything else can go to sh!t and they don't care. They probably think capitalizing on some sprawl (like the cheap Wind tunnel Appalachian carny proposal being discussed on another thread) would be nice, but even then I doubt they care. Highly doubt they care as long as AK Steel is in town.

Want to make them get off their a$$ and do something? Press for cleaning up YOUR (not my) community. Press for higher taxes and more restrictions on AK. And then make them put that extra tax revenue into repaving roads, fixing sidewalks, better maintaining parks, recruiting new industry, and diversifying the economy. 

The AK site, despite what you all seem to think, is an excellent location - unsurpassed highway and rail access, right in a 9-hr radius of 60% of the US and Canadian population. The potential for logistics and distribution, advanced manufacturing (not third world steel manufacturing like AK), office space, etc. is immense. And Chinese industry is coming, if that isn't already evident from Fuyao. Capitalize on it! 


As far as the airport is concerned, that is just ONE potential use for the site based on past speculation which has been occurring since roughly the 1960's. Nothing new. And creating jobs in a freshly hard-hit Middletown would probably be political support enough to move the airport there. If Dayton had received FAA Drone Test Site approval, the proposal would have been even easier to push because DAY could have easily been repurposed into a massive drone testing site. And OH politicians would be on-board with getting CVG tax revenue back in OH. That I can guarantee.



Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Jan 18 2014 at 11:40am
Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

Trotwood:

Perhaps you missed this statement in the APA article that you linked:
"Sams said both I-75 interchanges are in the plan, but that the one proposed at Greentree Road is more likely to come to fruition than one sought at the Manchester Road crossing. Ohio Department of Transportation officials did not respond to questions about the interchange plans."

I do have one question: Were these planning meetings held in Colorado?

I doubt they would be able to comment unless they were 100% pursuing the plan. It's a least a lot more promising answer than "We are not pursuing constructing an interchange at Greentree Rd".

And the planning meeting location - I don't know. It could have been. 


Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Jan 18 2014 at 11:45am
Originally posted by acclaro acclaro wrote:

T, I put the document you provided at the same level of Obama's waste of $200 Mm for manufacturing innovation in NC, to save Kay Hagal, Senator, from defeat. $ wasted w/o rationale knowledge or consideration for creating impact. Another example of enormous government waste. The worse problem in southwestern Ohio is the breakdown on I-75 from Cincinnati until hitting 275, from adequate east/ west land expansion. All the wasted funds on 75 to have the bottleneck for the 20 mile stretch from 275 to the Ohio River is difficult to accept. Then, the $3 Bb the group wants to fund to build a new bridge over the Ohio River to have tows charged. Madness.
Urban planning has its place to avoid urban sprawl, but the 'study' leaves much to be desired. Glittering generalities just doesn't 'get er done.'  

If you consider the Greentree interchange project wasteful, then I strongly suggest you write a letter to the people planning it NOW. VietVet is correct planning for this has been on/off over the years, but I'm assuming since the economy is getting better in OH and tax revenues are going up again, now is when it will happen. 

The reason they will most likely use? Congestion at OH 63. There are a lot of "destination locations" there, with the outlet mall, the flea markets, racino, etc. And the population of Monroe doubled in the past 10 years - lots of good reason to build an interchange there now that didn't exist 5, 10 or 20 years ago.


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Jan 18 2014 at 11:51am
Mr. T (or Mr. Smith); to your response:
1) I don't question the authenticity of the document, I question its value and lack of substantive facts. It has no value, other than providing a county development officer a road map. I don't view Otterbein as a game-changer, nor the Atrium and "Innovation s Drive", nor expansion  of the zoo.
NCR's move was devastating to Dayton. UD's acquisition of the building (corporate) served only to save a building and new jobs to make up for the shortfall. Oakwood, Centreville, and Kettering were hurt tremendously. To state there would be a meaningful back-fill of AKS is demonstrating a complete lack of macro-economic knowledge. I add, Dayton is among the top 5 areas in the  nation for foreclosure, at one time, ranked no. 2. Some resurgence.
 
2) You obviously have no knowledge regarding the capital costs for an airport and planning requirements. More importantly, would be need. There is, simply put, no need for an airport sitting between Dayton and Cincinnati.
 
      
    

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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Jan 18 2014 at 11:51am
Originally posted by VietVet VietVet wrote:

Trotwood:

"Both a Manchester Rd. interchange and a Greentree Rd. interchange are being studied"

They have been looking at Manchester Rd. for many years, off and on. The last report I heard was that, at the time, there is no need to construct an exit because of the proximity of the 122-Middletown and 123 Lebanon/Frankin exits. They both feed meaninful off highway activity. The Manchester Rd. area does not as it empties out to a more rural setting. Other than the hospital traffic to and from work, a Manchester Rd. exit would be nominally used wouldn't it? Union Rd. and the rural road feeding it don't supply enough traffic count to justify an exit at this location. Sure would be convenient for all of us living in NE Middletown rather than to go the 122 or 123 routes to I-75. I'd appreciate it on my way to Dayton everyday. As it is now, gotta travel through Franklin to reach 123/73 and I-75.

Manchester Rd. interchange is probably more of a long shot than Greentree, for the reasons you cited. But think about Union Centre - out in the middle of a corn field when it was built, not so much now. That's what they are hoping for.

My bet? - It won't happen. Even if it did, I doubt there would be much development. Right now, Middletown/Franklin are the armpit of Butler/Warren, the schools of both are horrible (especially in comparison to surrounding communities) so even with the interchange developers would have to be crazy to invest there. There is no incentive, unless its better access to a new landfill (both Stony Hollow and Mt. Rumpke are near capacity) or another similar community disinvestment type investment (like the world's largest sex toy shop, a Gatlinburg-esque type strip, or something like that). 


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Jan 18 2014 at 4:23pm
I see nothing wrong with the new interchanges. If anything it will help take some of the semi-truck traffic off of Ohio 122, and put if on Green tree, and the MUM & Cincy State students on Manchester. By adding these interchanges will give Middletown one last shot at re-development, like Austin Blvd. and the Green, as long as City Council doesn't screw it up LOL

It anything it will allow people an easier way to get in and out of Middletown, rather than Ohio 122's maze of turns, just to get into downtown.

Another random question, why didn't the State of Ohio designate Central Ave. as Ohio 122 instead of what it is currently?


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jan 19 2014 at 6:45am
Originally posted by ktf1179 ktf1179 wrote:

Another random question, why didn't the State of Ohio designate Central Ave. as Ohio 122 instead of what it is currently?
That's how it used to be, decades ago.

Rte. 122 was Grand Avenue, to Sutphin Street, to Central Avenue, and then on across the bridge.

(I think this is correct...I've searched the far back pages of my memory banks trying to recall this.)

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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jan 19 2014 at 7:28am
Originally posted by Trotwood Trotwood wrote:


I was born and raised very close to Middletown city limits. Since then I moved away but am now back in the area for college, so if you really want you could count me as one of those "collegians looking for a luagh" (or if we were in Hamilton, a "young professional" would work just fine). Can you verify my identity - I doubt it, but that's my alibi. 

First off, I thought Precision Strip and Kokosing were not that tied to Middletown? I purposefully left SunCoke off the list because they would close their site if AK Middletown Works closed. But yes, if they are that closely tied, that would be more jobs lost if AK left. 

My rebuttal - look at Dayton. 10,000 jobs lost in 2008 just from Delphi alone. That doesn't even include the fact that GM Moraine left, losing another 2,000 jobs, NCR left with 1,500 jobs, and I'm sure there were a ton of suppliers that had to close, downsize, etc. after those losses. But the area is coming back. Fuyao is bringing 800 jobs to GM Moraine, all of the former Delphi sites have been re-purposed, UD bought the NCR HQ and is using the space to create high-paying research jobs, GE is rapidly expanding in the area because Dayton has a large, skilled, and employable workforce, and so on. Looking in hindsight, Delphi, GM, and NCR pulling out of Dayton was probably one of the best things that could have happened, because it gave everyone in the area a kick in the pants to realize complacency wasn't the answer. Pittsburgh is now booming, but had to face those realities in the 1980's when it was really "the Pitts". New York realized this in the 19780's with the crime epidemic, along with Portland and Seattle in the same era when they were decidedly uncool, smelly, dirty fishing ports. 

Middletown hasn't been kicked in the a$$ yet, and it needs it. That's probably a lot of the reason why you all are mad at current city leaders - they are complacent. AK is the holy grail that "cannot be disturbed" and "must be kept happy", in their minds. I assume their attitude is everything else can go to sh!t and they don't care. They probably think capitalizing on some sprawl (like the cheap Wind tunnel Appalachian carny proposal being discussed on another thread) would be nice, but even then I doubt they care. Highly doubt they care as long as AK Steel is in town.

Want to make them get off their a$$ and do something? Press for cleaning up YOUR (not my) community. Press for higher taxes and more restrictions on AK. And then make them put that extra tax revenue into repaving roads, fixing sidewalks, better maintaining parks, recruiting new industry, and diversifying the economy. 

The AK site, despite what you all seem to think, is an excellent location - unsurpassed highway and rail access, right in a 9-hr radius of 60% of the US and Canadian population. The potential for logistics and distribution, advanced manufacturing (not third world steel manufacturing like AK), office space, etc. is immense. And Chinese industry is coming, if that isn't already evident from Fuyao. Capitalize on it! 


As far as the airport is concerned, that is just ONE potential use for the site based on past speculation which has been occurring since roughly the 1960's. Nothing new. And creating jobs in a freshly hard-hit Middletown would probably be political support enough to move the airport there. If Dayton had received FAA Drone Test Site approval, the proposal would have been even easier to push because DAY could have easily been repurposed into a massive drone testing site. And OH politicians would be on-board with getting CVG tax revenue back in OH. That I can guarantee.

First, why in the world would I try to "verify" your identity??? If you feel the need to hide behind an alias or have an "alibi", that is your business...not mine. I stated my views on the subject. Please reread my remarks...I meant exactly what I said.

Next, yes...Precision Strip buys steel coils from AK, further processes them (such as slitting to customer specifications) and then ships them out to their customers. Their location right across the street from a quality supplier made sense for them to open a branch here. If AK closed (and no one else took over the plant, which is likely) they would likely relocate their processing equipment to a location near another steel mill. Kokosing bought McGraw's construction operations, which included many ongoing maintenance contracts with AK, which they have maintained and tried to nurture. Previously, they were a heavy and highway contractor and operated mostly out of their main office. Again, if AK closed, they would likely hang around long enough to see if someone else took over operations of the mill. If no one did, they would likely close this branch.

Your comparisons of Middletown to Dayton and Pittsburgh, etc. are apples to oranges, and not worthy of comment. Plus, I lived and worked in Pittsburgh during much of the renaissance you mention, and I assure you that steel mills played a role in it.

Rather than do any more point-by-point rebuttal, let me just say that YOU make the best argument against your own premise!!! YOU point out the great location of the AK plant site and YOU say that Chinese industry is coming. What you don't seem to realize is that AK Middletown works has a World-class hot strip mill and cold mill (both of which are, or at least recently were, WORLD RECORD performers) and other excellent facilities. If somehow AK were "killed", Chinese steelmakers would snatch up the entire plant in a New York minute and run it as an open shop, paying lower wages. The result would be that all the things you seem to abhor would remain, but the economy would suffer due to the lower payroll. (And this is based on YOUR logic, not mine!!!)

My advice to you??? Take a few days off for a vacation in Colorado. The two new interstate interchanges, the airport, and all of the other things you see will be much easier to envision from there!!!

Have a nice trip!!!



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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Jan 19 2014 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

 First, why in the world would I try to "verify" your identity??? If you feel the need to hide behind an alias or have an "alibi", that is your business...not mine. I stated my views on the subject. Please reread my remarks...I meant exactly what I said.

Next, yes...Precision Strip buys steel coils from AK, further processes them (such as slitting to customer specifications) and then ships them out to their customers. Their location right across the street from a quality supplier made sense for them to open a branch here. If AK closed (and no one else took over the plant, which is likely) they would likely relocate their processing equipment to a location near another steel mill. Kokosing bought McGraw's construction operations, which included many ongoing maintenance contracts with AK, which they have maintained and tried to nurture. Previously, they were a heavy and highway contractor and operated mostly out of their main office. Again, if AK closed, they would likely hang around long enough to see if someone else took over operations of the mill. If no one did, they would likely close this branch.

Your comparisons of Middletown to Dayton and Pittsburgh, etc. are apples to oranges, and not worthy of comment. Plus, I lived and worked in Pittsburgh during much of the renaissance you mention, and I assure you that steel mills played a role in it.

Rather than do any more point-by-point rebuttal, let me just say that YOU make the best argument against your own premise!!! YOU point out the great location of the AK plant site and YOU say that Chinese industry is coming. What you don't seem to realize is that AK Middletown works has a World-class hot strip mill and cold mill (both of which are, or at least recently were, WORLD RECORD performers) and other excellent facilities. If somehow AK were "killed", Chinese steelmakers would snatch up the entire plant in a New York minute and run it as an open shop, paying lower wages. The result would be that all the things you seem to abhor would remain, but the economy would suffer due to the lower payroll. (And this is based on YOUR logic, not mine!!!)

My advice to you??? Take a few days off for a vacation in Colorado. The two new interstate interchanges, the airport, and all of the other things you see will be much easier to envision from there!!!

Have a nice trip!!!


I'd like to make a trip to Colorado, never been there. But I'm a college student and don't have the money to make it out there.... any chance you are willing to foot the bill?

In the meantime, let's talk about the above comments. The identity comments were tied to a response from another post. And comparing Middletown to Dayton or Pittsburgh may be comparing apples and oranges, so how about we just compare Middletown to two nearby communities which are comparable in size - Kettering and Hamilton.

Both are older communities (with lots of pre-WWII housing stock), one has a downtown core like Middletown, and both grew by industrial means. Hamilton with the paper mills, Fisher Body, etc. and Kettering with GM Moraine, Delphi, a DESC base, and others (notice all of the industries I just mentioned are gone). And look at where they both are now - their schools are not in academic emergency (Kettering's are actually on par with Lakota), there is lots of re-investment occurring in city limits, and people have a positive outlook about the future of both of these places. AK leaving, if it does, will not be the end of the world., and in fact may help move Middletown forward. That's all I am trying to say....


And you do have a point, if AK leaves the Chinese may just come in and buy the mill to make steel. They do have a never ending appetite for the stuff, given their growth and the fact that they have not been building the majority of their industrial buildings to have much of a lifespan beyond 10 years. But even if THAT happens, it would make for an arguably better climate in Middletown because a re-assessment of the site would still have to be done and likely AK would still be responsible for cleaning up their ground toxins before ownership could be transferred. 

Considering that, ownership transfer of an individual plant is improbable. Likely the Chinese would just buy a whole steel company, and if they are going to go to all of the trouble to buy one, they are going to want one with a better balance sheet. If they bought the whole company, then nothing would happen - you would still have AK. Only difference would be that it would have a new owner (like what happened when Kawasaki bought a bunch of it and became AK instead of the American Rolling Mill Company). 

And you would still have the same problem. The rest of the world has moved forward, and Middletown can too if they get out of the 1950's and ditch AK.


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jan 19 2014 at 10:39pm
Trotwood:

Since you're talking in circles, I guess this conversation is over.

You say you want to "kill" AK. If AK is "dead" (bankrupt), they have no money to remediate anything, then--according to your own logic--the Chinese come in, buy the bankrupt facility, operate it as an open shop paying lower wages, all the negative aspects you decry in a steel mill remain, the City of Middletown receives less in payroll and property taxes, and everyone is worse off.

If AK is making enough profit to be able to afford to do all the remediation that YOU want, there is no reason for them to walk away from their core business and their flagship plant in the first place.

You can't have it both ways.

Perhaps you are taking trips without going to Colorado???

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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jan 19 2014 at 10:56pm
Trotwood:

By the way: GM Moraine was in Moraine, not Kettering. And Delphi's operations were taken over by Tenneco, similar to what I say will happen if you "kill" AK, so that supports my premise, not yours!!!


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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Jan 30 2014 at 7:20am
Trotwood:
Here's A good question for you and your liberal chums:

You are in favor of a HUGE metro AIRPORT, with HUNDREDS of multi-engine jumbo jets taking off, landing, and sitting and idling every day burning DIRTY jet-A fuel...

Yet you are opposed to a power plant sitting in one little corner of the same area using a SINGLE TURBINE burning clean, natural gas because you say that it pollutes!!!

(Even though it will REPLACE a DIRTY COAL-fired power plant!!!)

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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: Trotwood
Date Posted: Jan 30 2014 at 11:22am
Originally posted by Mike_Presta Mike_Presta wrote:

Trotwood:
Here's A good question for you and your liberal chums:

You are in favor of a HUGE metro AIRPORT, with HUNDREDS of multi-engine jumbo jets taking off, landing, and sitting and idling every day burning DIRTY jet-A fuel...

Yet you are opposed to a power plant sitting in one little corner of the same area using a SINGLE TURBINE burning clean, natural gas because you say that it pollutes!!!

(Even though it will REPLACE a DIRTY COAL-fired power plant!!!)

Excellent point. The airport would, in a sense, devalue the community just as much as AK/Suncoke currently do. 

However, I think my point above related more to the fact that Middletown should not be afraid of AK leaving and should squeeze as much tax revenue as it can get out of it so the money can be used to better clean up the community. And the airport would be one alternative use, as would be a massive logistics/advanced manufacturing park similar to what is in SW West Chester/Fairfield (that idea would have to bank on the continued rise of e-commerce and more economic prosperity in future years), etc. 

But if you look at housing values near either major airport in the region, they are fairly high. The same is true in Columbus too. So that leads me to think there is not much of a negative correlation between housing prices and airport distance, although my intuition tells me differently. So good call.


I will be back in a little bit to post some speculation from another Towne Mall thread that is currently active on City-Data.com. 


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Feb 02 2014 at 2:12pm
From the "Save Middletown Target" group on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.k.allen?viewer_id=532433959" rel="nofollow - Sarah Knedler Allen
This week's project is all about the City of Middletown! We need to MAKE SURE they know that we want Target to stay open and that we want them to help us make that happen! Here are allof the contact names and numbers/emails:
Denise Hamet
Economic Development Director
deniseha@cityofmiddletown.org
513.425.7847
Matt Eisenbraun
Economic Development
Program Manager
matte@cityofmiddletown.org
513.705.1608
Larry Mulligan Jr. Mayor, At-large
larrym@cityofmiddletown.org
(513) 425-7719
Dan Picard, Vice-Mayor,Ward 4
dpicard@cityofmiddletown.org
(513) 425-7719
Dora Bronston
dbronston@cityofmiddletown.org
(513) 425-7719
Joe Mulligan, At-large
jmulligan@cityofmiddletown.org
(513) 425-7719
Anita Scott Jones, At-large
asjones@cityofmiddletown.org
(513) 425-7719
Amy Schenck, Clerk of Council
aschenk@cityofmiddletown.org
(513) 425-7719
Judy Gilliland, City Manager
dept_citymanager@cityofmiddletown.org
(513) 425-7836

We are also going to try to get on the agenda for a council meeting and will ask everyone to please come show their support when we get confirmation on a date!!


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Feb 02 2014 at 2:13pm
And I say good luck with that LOL


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 02 2014 at 3:44pm
Sarah, spend your time on getting the roads and infrastructure repaired.

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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Feb 02 2014 at 4:57pm
hey--I hope that they stay
Sarah is a very nice lady(wife of former Council member Tom Allen)

acclaro was correct in that there is too much similar retail in town cannibalizing a thinly-sliced consumer pie. The drug stores use staples(milk,bread, paper products) to draw people in on a regular basis, since pharmaceuticals aren't enough. Dollar store have national contracts with national brands. Fuel centers has petrol as their draw.
They all pass on the tough areas, like freshly-cut meats, deli, produce and expansive dairy/frozen. Has made the neighborhood markets obsolete unfortunately(for me!).

Kroger, WalMart and Meijer dominate with Marsh and probably Meijer the next to go. I somewhat like Meijer best---Kroger is high--would rather shop DLM if I have to pay top $$,+ DLM has more of my preferred specialty items.

What Target, Wal Mart etc. don't want to mention is the off-the-chart high level of pilfering shrink that goes on in the east end(all over town ftm). A major factor in possibly leaving the local locations. Wal Mart theft is off the chart.

jmo with a few facts.....


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Feb 03 2014 at 10:25am
I do wish them luck in trying to keep Target in Middletown, but I don't see them winning this battle, and getting anywhere with a City Council that is only obsessed with Downtown. I would not be surprised if every retail place in Middletown eventually closes up due to the type of people we attract now too this town. We will be the next Trotwood  within the next ten years if the people of Middletown don't stop stealing from these Realtors, and if people keep driving to other places to shop, besides Middletown.

So I am sorry Spider it is hard to be positive about Middletown when everything is going wrong.  And if more Major stores close up shop,  we will more than likely be leaving this town as well. One of the main reason we moved here was the close proximity to major stores, but if they all close up, then it will not be worth the expense in Gas to live in this town if we have to drive to that Dayton or Tri-County Mall areas to do any major shopping.

But I do still hold on to hope things will turn around, but it is slipping.


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Feb 10 2014 at 10:30am
had occasion this weekend to visit the towne mall and target a couple of times during "peak" afternoon business hours. the mall was empty other than senior "walkers". Mall should charge these people for their usage imo.

Target was amazingly empty. Talked with employees who mentioned lack of sales + theft. So---those public faces trying to organize and keep this location open had better put their $$ where their mouths have been going, or the end is obviously coming. sos that is crushing all small businesses and retail in the city. Obviously Target has their eye set on a marketplace location @ Austin, or in the Monroe mall/new prosed mall area. They definitely don't need to expand here imo.

sad to see--I remember when all of the above + many more now gone were thriving.

Still waiting on that train outta here.....


Posted By: ktf1179
Date Posted: Feb 10 2014 at 11:28am
I hate to say this but  Middletown is getting what it deserves for allowing the cancer that is section 8 to move in to this town, and squandering all of is tax dollars on useless pet projects, instead of increase policing. And now that business and families are leaving Middletown at a record pace, soon all that will be left is Section 8 housing, heroin users, and an city council wondering where all the income tax money has disappeared too.


Posted By: VietVet
Date Posted: Feb 10 2014 at 11:40am
Spider:

"Target was amazingly empty. Talked with employees who mentioned lack of sales + theft. So---those public faces trying to organize and keep this location open had better put their $$ where their mouths have been going, or the end is obviously coming. sos that is crushing all small businesses and retail in the city. Obviously Target has their eye set on a marketplace location @ Austin, or in the Monroe mall/new prosed mall area. They definitely don't need to expand here imo"

THIS SITUATION DOESN'T SURPRISE ME. WHEN CITY LEADERS MAKE A DECISION TO BRING IN UNDESIRABLES WITH ALL THE RAMIFICATIONS ONE COULD ATTACH TO THAT, COUPLED WITH THE THEFT AS A RESULT OF HEROIN BUYING IN A TOWN THAT IS SATURATED WITH WEAK MINDED USERS, WHO HAVE A CHOICE TO USE OR NOT TO USE BY THE WAY, THE AFTERMATH IS PREDICTABLE. CRIME UP-THEFT THROUGH THE ROOF, GHETTO-BUILDING THEME, DRUG INFESTED, SPENDING DOWN, LIMITED INCOME FOR MOST, CITY PRIORITIES ALL WRONG, BUSINESSES LEAVING-NONE REPLACING THEM, LEADERS DON'T CARE.....KINDA TELLS THE STORY. RESPECTABLE TRUMPS GHETTO EVERYTIME. JUST HAVE TO CONVINCE CITY LEADERS TO EMBRACE THAT CONCEPT. HOW DO WE DO THAT?

UNLIKE COUNCIL AND THE CITY LEADERS, WE ALL KNOW REPUTABLE BUSINESSES WILL NOT STAY WHEN THERE IS AN OVERWHELMING NUMBER OF MIDDLETOWN RESIDENTS WHO HAVE NO DISPOSABLE INCOME, ARE ON DRUGS AND EXPERIENCE THEFT IN EXTREME PROPORTIONS. I CAN'T BELIEVE WAL-MART, WITH ALL THE THEFT REPORTED ON A DAILY BASIS, STILL HAS NO ONE POSTED AT THE ENTRANCES TO AT LEAST GET THE LICENSE PLATE NUMBERS OF THESE THIEVES AS THEY LOAD THE OLD BIG SCREEN INTO THE TRUCK AND DRIVE AWAY. GOTTA GET DRUG MONEY YA KNOW.

IT IS, AND HAS BEEN A CLUSTER FOR DECADES. INCREDIBLE THINKING BY CITY LEADERS THROUGH THE YEARS. SADLY, INCOMPETENCY REIGNS SUPREME IN MIDDLETOWN.

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I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.


Posted By: buckeye43719
Date Posted: Feb 10 2014 at 5:19pm
The Towne Mall is a joke in my opinion.  No stores and no customers to boot.. I was in the so called mall about 2 weeks ago. It was at noon time on a Wednesday.  I saw empty storefronts and the employees I saw had absolutely nothing to do.


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Jesus is the only way to Heaven


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Feb 12 2014 at 9:53pm
there once was a very successful grocery market in the downtown area, but it was forced to vacate

http://mail.aol.com/38380-111/aol-6/en-us/mail/get-attachment.aspx?uid=28611447&folder=NewMail&partId=3


Posted By: acclaro
Date Posted: Feb 12 2014 at 10:57pm
http://youtu.be/Hd3oqvnDKQk

Disposable income.




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'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill


Posted By: Mike_Presta
Date Posted: Feb 13 2014 at 2:29am
Originally posted by spiderjohn spiderjohn wrote:

there once was a very successful grocery market in the downtown area, but it was forced to vacate

http://mail.aol.com/38380-111/aol-6/en-us/mail/get-attachment.aspx?uid=28611447&folder=NewMail&partId=3
Spider:
This link doesn't work...at least not for me.

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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012


Posted By: spiderjohn
Date Posted: Feb 14 2014 at 7:42am
loaded for me, Mike
I dunno why it won't work 4 u

A pic of our store(formerly Reddy's) on Verity
from the late 60s
Ironically we did very well, as did Liberal's just down the same street

a different and much more active "downtown" back then


Posted By: swohio75
Date Posted: Feb 14 2014 at 11:47am
It's because its a link to your AOL inbox..


Posted By: over the hill
Date Posted: Feb 14 2014 at 5:36pm
Doesn't work for me either. Would love to see those old pictures


Posted By: tcaud
Date Posted: May 17 2014 at 4:23pm
The demise of Middletown target comes as little surprise. In fact I'm surprised it carried on as long as it did. Their prices were higher than Walmart's and Big Lots' in an low income area. That's a sure recipe for failure. K-mart had the same problem. Neither Walmart Middletown nor Meijer nor Big Lots gets a ton of business. Most people living in Middletown, apparently, get their groceries and other items someplace else, with only the poor bothering with any of them.

It's good that Towne Mall is being revived but it's difficult to see how they expect to compete given their current strategy. Prem Outlets in Monroe has largely captured the market for premium goods in this area. It's become convention that young people will go to Cincinnati to have a good time... services in Middletown cater only to the older population and the poor. Of course there's the issue that most young people this day and age are relatively poor, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

It just seems to me that Target's closure was a simple reality of business. Ever since the AK strike this area has been having a rough time. In many ways its current growth is unjustified... it has neither the population nor the relative appeal to make use of the money put into it for expansion 15 years ago. Middletown and Franklin are the slums of Butler Co.... West Chester, conversely, is the pot of wealth and gold, and Hamilton is the middle. That's the shape of it.

If you want Middletown to grow, the first thing to do is give people something to do. Cater to young people. Encourage people to settle in Middletown and go to work farther north and south. Live the life of a suburb and don't even worry about "attracting" business... that's not particularly feasible given the logistics. Middletown is a stop between Dayton and Cincinnati, and that is the end of it. Give its working class population something to do, and you'll notice it gradually creep back up to middle class status. But right now its youth have next to nothing.


Posted By: Vivian Moon
Date Posted: May 17 2014 at 4:42pm
Welcome TCLAUD

Yes, I moved back to Middletown because it was in the middle of my work area when I was in construction.





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