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True Costs Of the MCSC School Levy

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aflatkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aflatkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 8:17am
Richard Saunders ,  if what you said  "The real fact of the matter is that, like the present Vail location, the Verity location is unacceptable to the school administration shot-callers because of the "neighborhood" is correct that particular view by the school board goes against the revitalization of down town middletown. We all know what a hot topic re vitalization of down town is. there are many who rally behind the idea and many who think it is fruitless. Consider this
have you supported the new UDF downtown by getting gas or ice cream ? Do you think it has improved part of the down town area ? For the school board to think, if in fact it is true they can by statistical analysis desert poor  residential areas of the district they serve just because of the quote "view of the surrounding blight" shows a discriminatory practice in my view. They should in fact get on board and consider spending, if approved, tax dollars collected to help revitalize a community that is a serious consideration for the redevelopment of improved neighborhoods in down town middletown. For them to abandon a neighborhood is proof alone that not all the powers of city government are on the same page in efforts to revitalize down town. if they abandon the neighborhood and merely say "we can bus that population to the new location" it reflects a intolerance by the school board of  the  basic reality's of economic and social demographics in our society.  To think that there is no one that can see the idea that  the school board is willing to educate the poor on the good side of town but not in a impoverished  neighborhood is to selectively abandon  the support of poor neighborhoods. Part of revitalization of any community would be to reinvest in the schools in that geographic location. They did it down on RT 4 a few years ago. if you travel out of town , south on route 4 you see a new helath center and a new school right in the middle of a  middle class and poor neighborhood. this random philosophy by the school board if true is not in the better interest of the redevelopment of the down town district of middletown.  so !!!

Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !!

Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!

 

Visit

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf

 

and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.

 

please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as

 

Brevity is the soul of wit  

 and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail.

and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946)






aflatkey
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acclaro View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 10:03am
Richard Saunders, to be fair, and in the spirit of debate, as Ms. Andrew has been open, candid, honest, and factual, it is only reasonable to factually acknowledge her points, and the BOE, as she has the alternative view. That is what I indicated in my mini synopsis. I have great admiration for Ms. Andrew, and she is one of few people who will debate respectfully and factually. To spin on either side, isn't debate, its an argument, and that's a fool's play.

I don't disagree with what you said, and indeed, stated the same in many posts. The statute under 3318 does allow renovation. My point, stepping in the shoes of Ms. Andrew, was the school board would have to put forth a laborious justification when a new school cost in comparison to a renovation, which if one fairly reads the costs for renovation, is > than 66% of the new build. By ORC 3318, the BOE, as Ms. Andrew stated, would have to write a compelling brief/ report, associated with the cost difference. Are renovation costs lower? Probably; but the point made and to objectively consider is the OSFC follows the statutes, the MCSD also is required to follow 3318, and must, to get any form of state assistance. For that matter, if they did not want 26% of the state funding, they could have renovated or maintained Vail, and had every right to do so, minus 26% from the state.

As for the movement of Vail, lets also be fair and impartial to have a balanced debate. When Vail was built, 99.99% of students lived about 3/4 miles or less south on Main, and around the old hospital, and east up to Aberdeen.

In fact, most of the east end of Middletown wasn't built nor developed until after 1960 from Milton, Rosedale intersecting Redbud, nor Breihel including Manchester. Vail would not be an ideal location for the % of homeowners living now in Middletown, and arguably the area around the high school would be central. One can't use the walking, mule, bike, or trolley distance from Vail to the mass of population when the school in contrast today, based upon the considerable expansion geographically, both north, and east, since the original construction.

Therefore, when considering the current central point of students, and also the valuation of property, and ease to the highway; there are students that do commute through open enrollment, Ms. Andrew has presented a compelling argument associated with placement of the school and reasoning associated with building a new school. And that is, the state mandates new build when renovation is 66% of greater. Clearly, one couldn't say the movement to a eastern location was biased nor intended to discriminate associated with early 1900 demogarphics of population versus the present.

aflatkey- I don't disagree with your point there is waste, margins, and politics associated with school buildings, interstate projects, healthcare, nor any corruption, politics, and power play associated with a group, entity, union, body, organization, has power of the purse. But, the state statute under 3318 requires competitive bidding, and most architects, construction companies, consultants, et al, are profit entities, not non profits. I have used many times, UNC Chapel Hill, working with McKinsey, as an example of effective process re-engineering to drive costs down. If there is waste in the machine, it can easily be exposed, but you need an organization like Texas has to put pressure on everyone involved, to peel back the onion for transparency, and to reduce costs.    
    
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 11:26am
acclaro:

Within the framework of the last few posts, you seem to be traveling a new path, one of sponsorship for Ms. Andrew and her new building team supporters.

Are you now agreeing with the pro-levy people and have joined their team of yes voters?

Getting mixed signals from you now as opposed to the outset of this discussion.

You seem now, to be on the endorsement road at this point......and that would be disappointing, given that, at one time, you championed the tax oppressed portion of this community.
I'm so proud of my hometown and what it has become. Recall 'em all. Let's start over.
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acclaro View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 12:25pm
Mr. Saunders, in my post, I neglected to adequately respond to your point on Verity, and skewed it towards Vail; my apologies.

I cannot disagree with your point on Verity being newer, and placed geographically in an area that had construction buildup post 1950. I assume your point was Verity had renovation costs < 66% vs. new, which would seem logical, as it is much newer than Vail. The consolidation would seem to have merit associated with a centralized approach, without inflicting too much pain on those serviced by the present location. I understand  your point regarding "the neighborhood", but that would suggest Reverend Tyus, in particular, would support moving the building, and Vail, to areas with higher income----unlikely, in my opinion. And from a marketing vantage, there is a case to be made of the advantages of having the schools there, with MUM across the street. It is a valid selling point, to have the middle school, Miller Ridge, the elementary school right of Rosedale, and high school, in a location so convenient to a regional campus. Parents have Jill or Johnnie going to a public school, attend the two year regional college economically, live at home, save $100,000., and then transfer to Middleberry, Brown, Penn, etc.

Now, to Vet. Yes, I respect and think highly of Ms. Andrew as a straight- shooter, not an empty suit, nor nebulous dreamer. She has been clear regarding the school's problems, has stated there are no guarantees, and laid forth why the levy has followed its path, accurately, factually, and honestly. No one knows anymore than she, MCSD has an imbalance number of lower income students, a decline in enrollment, nor the drop out numbers are high. She has acknowledged such. And, she has made valid, well supported points. In fact, she openly stated her viewpoint was that by building new buildings and passing the levy, the likelihood, with no guarantees, would be more parents would move into Middletown, less students would leave through the middle school age period (6-8), which in itself, was better than the outcome of an aged number of buildings creating a situation which only serves to worsen a rather dire situation. That's a fair position,  and one reasonable to agree.

My position on the levy is it should fail, but only so, based upon the following. I believe the decline in enrollment in the middle schools is associated with violence, or fear thereof, lack of discipline, and not associated with Vail, as indicated by others, location and a survey of parents as a basis for moving a student. I do not think Middletown will climb out of the continuous improvement rating for years. I also do not believe a school building does anything to stimulate performance, or at in this district's position, to leap frog from CI to Excellent.

But, the main reason I would not support the levy is purely economic. This is not a " once in a "lifetime" opportunity MCSD gets to receive a matching contribution from the state. In fact, I think just the opposite. As the formulation for the OSFC is based upon a three average tax base, I would expect the match to be greater than 40% in a matter of 3-5 years, far better than 26%, and also give the district additional time to move results at least to a solid midpoint    on the report card. The voter should keep in mind the OFSC only came about or about 1997. Middletown received a 26% match in the early stages of the program. It locked in under contract. The districts post 2006, are getting/ got, far better state allocations, than 26%. Also, when looking at tax base, MiCSD is richer than 66% of the Ohio districts, while performing at a level below 97% of districts. Something is wrong, and with these considerations, awaiting a few more years to gain a better state match, better academic ratings, is logical and sound. I also think it unwise to take $1.5 MM out of the local economy when Middletown as a whole is in nuclear melt-down, to spend $165  MM in buildings. The school board and city leadership are intertwined, and if the Titantic goes down, they both ride the ship down, as do the residents, and businesses.  

I respect and understand why many would support the levy based upon the state mandate with new buildings, and a desire to "minimize the bleeding", as well as one that would vote no, and await a higher state match, and better results.     

Either was, whatever happens on May 6, I see it having benefit.        
 
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcia Andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 1:27pm
Acclaro, Saunders --
 
I appreciate your statements.  I understand that reasonable people can hold different viewpoints and opinions on the issue; my goal in posting on this site has always been to provide factual information and correct misunderstandings or misstatements of fact.  My intent is not to try to force people to see things my way.  Every now and then I may stray from facts to opinion but I try to clearly differentiate between the two.
 
Reasonable people can disagree as to the best solution to deal with the Vail building.  Whether to renovate or replace; where to locate the middle school; the scope of locally funded options.  I have tried to explain that the school district had a process for identifying, evaluating, discussing and ranking all options and that we made that process as inclusive as we could.  We invited any one interested to be on the facilities committee or attend its meetings and forums.  Heck, even Mr. Presta joined the committee!   (ha ha, no offense Mr. Presta, we definitely appreciated your time and input -- my point is this shows we were not excluding people who would not agree with some pre-ordained outcome). Mr. Presta commented on here about his participation in the committee process a year and a half ago or so when it wrapped up its re-evaluation of the the master plan.  My recollection is that, while he was disappointed that more people on the committee did not share his views or his emphasis on minimizing the price tag, he felt he was given time to state his thoughts.  The people on the facilities committee and the people who attended the open forums ranked the various alternatives, and the top 3 were brought to the BOE for consideration.
 
Originally the Verity property had been chosen as the site for a new high school.  Then, when input from the community indicated they wanted to keep the current high school at the high school and renovate it, Verity was chosen as the site for a new middle school.  The BOE approved that plan.  Then, there was a public outcry against that location for a middle school.  This led the facilities committee to re-evaluate again, and find a way that a new middle school could be built on the same campus as the high school, and the majority of people were happy with that solution.  (btw, the cost to renovate Verity would be 80% of cost of building a new building the size of Verity, and we need a middle school double the size of Verity).
 
So, we had a process to discuss alternatives. It was long and drawn out with many opportunities for input.  The time to say you want a different alternative has passed. We can only put one option on the ballot.
 
There has also been some misunderstandings about what would happen if the bond issue does pass in May.  A planning process would start, with another chance for the community to provide input on the functionality, materials, layout, etc. to be included in the buildings.  Then the architects would draw up detailed plans and specifications.  Then the work would be put out to public bid.  The winning bidders would enter contracts with the Middletown BOE (the work is not awarded by the state OSFC). For the Phase I elementary buildings, the BOE made every effort to encourage and assist local companies to bid, so as much of the investment could be kept in the community.  Then the building/renovations would begin.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 3:05pm
Ms. Andrew, as this will be my last post associated with the levy, as there is nothing more of import I can interject of meaning, I want to thank you again for your service and ability to uplift the debate associated with the levy. If you endeavor to pursue options within the political realm outside the BOE, including the state, county, or region, I'd be privileged to lend support.

If there was a box to check on May 6, that said:

"I vote YES because I believe in Marcia Andrew, that box would be checked with unquestionable support. Your presence and participation in Middletown has made it a better place, and your viewpoints have probably moved the "on the fence" voter in the YES column, and if so, it is well earned.

Ms. Andrew works for one of the finest law firms in Ohio, if not most prestigious. She attended two of the top schools academically in the nation, and most competitive to gain admittance. Private schools would be a natural option and choice for children within such a family, but she has been an excellent champion, and believer, in public education. She knows as do many, getting the school rating up is critical for the district and city as a whole.

If there was an example of a meaningful virtual town-hall session, it has occurred.

Whatever is the outcome May 6, after spirited and useful exchange of information, and debate, I can live with the outcome and feel positive either way. Many thanks for sparking hope, there is light around the bend.


           
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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aflatkey View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aflatkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 3:45pm

very nice and quaint, the replies you have provided fellow blogers,

 

Just as a reference for all ya all, if you ever felt like I was disrespectful to any of ya all , it was not intentional.  It was collateral damage threw a healthy exchange of controversial ideas and opinions.

I personally felt disrespected because ya all's pro levy wanted to tax me till my own death. I know all we have forward to look for is death and taxes , but really do we have to put it to a vote if we want to be taxed or not till death with one more levy / bond issue ??  have you watched that Chris Rock movie where he runs for president / he keeps on saying  THAT AINT RIGHT !!   SECURITY !!!

Since many in society have had a epiphany as they grow older and ether want to contribute to the legacy of society or want to stop the purging that society puts on them economically you can see why a seast and desist attitude would grow threw the tax base as people just cant afford anymore contributions to the status quo. its not weather modern enmities, perfect geographic location, implementation of technologies in are schools are needed . It's when do you give your tax payers a brake as they have provided for the community for EVER as far as I can remember.

I get it folks , i'm ok with paying land tax to pay for operations of the schools. I just  am not ok with building them,  back in the day that was always the states job. 100%

you don’t buy a car and then rent it from your self. paying operating expense threw tax in my view is like renting the car. the state is like avis or hertz  they own the schools / I uderstand the local districts do their local admin / with out the state they would not exists.

So consider a alternate approach stop all funding, privatize the whole thing, if your state  representatives or senators still believe in education provide a set voucher for all the districts children to use if they qualify and raise the moneys for the vouchers threw new legislation that provides equal taxation with equal representation.  This opinion will not set well with many , but in fact it will stream line the waste and favoritism. As you know private colleges and  other like educational institutions do not lack for cash or enrolment .  profit and tenure by professors set the legacy for each institution.  Let corporate America take over and implement a wall mart like educational system, inexpensive, imported , cost effective to the poor,  checks and balances at the exchange counter , and yes LAY AWAY-  what a concept ! a family who intends to have a significantly larger family than most can  make lay away payments for their children to go to school when they get older. That might include the forethought of family planning in some cases.  While some might say these opinions are irrational and incoherent , I beg to differ as I  am the sole pilot responsible for my well being, and I would be better off with out  another  land tax line item, till my death.

Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !!

Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!

 

Visit

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf

 

and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.

 

please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as

 

Brevity is the soul of wit  

 and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail.

and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946)

aflatkey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 4:14pm
Originally posted by Marcia Andrew Marcia Andrew wrote:

... Heck, even Mr. Presta joined the committee!   (ha ha, no offense Mr. Presta, we definitely appreciated your time and input -- my point is this shows we were not excluding people who would not agree with some pre-ordained outcome). Mr. Presta commented on here about his participation in the committee process a year and a half ago or so when it wrapped up its re-evaluation of the the master plan.  My recollection is that, while he was disappointed that more people on the committee did not share his views or his emphasis on minimizing the price tag, he felt he was given time to state his thoughts.  The people on the facilities committee and the people who attended the open forums ranked the various alternatives, and the top 3 were brought to the BOE for consideration.
 
Originally the Verity property had been chosen as the site for a new high school.  Then, when input from the community indicated they wanted to keep the current high school at the high school and renovate it, Verity was chosen as the site for a new middle school.  The BOE approved that plan.  Then, there was a public outcry against that location for a middle school.  This led the facilities committee to re-evaluate again, and find a way that a new middle school could be built on the same campus as the high school, and the majority of people were happy with that solution.  (btw, the cost to renovate Verity would be 80% of cost of building a new building the size of Verity, and we need a middle school double the size of Verity).
 
...
Ms. Andrews:

First, I would like to echo Acclaro's sentiments regarding your willingness to join us here, field the questions, take the occasional verbal punch, and add to the discussion.  You are to be commended for doing so.  More public officials should do so, whether here or in some other public forum (if another were available where free and open discussion was possible).

Now, to address the first of the two paragraphs that I have quoted above: 
Yes, even though I was on the committee, I did feel that I was in a minority.  This is not to say that the committee was purposefully "stacked" as I have no way of knowing who else, or how many others, might have been invited and declined.  (I was asked by Mr. Fiora to be a member.)  Also, there was some misunderstanding about how the "voting" on the options was to be "weighted".  One of the options that would've included a less expensive option using the Verity property very narrowly missed the "final cut".  From my post-vote discussions with some of the other committee members, had we all understood the "weighting" of the votes prior to voting, at least one of the Verity options would likely have been included in the three options presented to the Board of Education (BoE).

Regarding the second paragraph quoted above:  
To address the last sentence first, I would dispute the OPINION that renovating Verity as part of a new middle school would cost 80% of a new building that size. The information given the committee was that no formal inspection of the Verity building (with an eye towards renovation) was done!  The consultant stated that the Verity building "MAY NOT" fit with what the BoE wants regarding configuration without extensive rework.  My OPINION is that the structure could be renovated for 60% or less than building new equivalent square footage.  (As you like to point out, we are dealing with OPINIONS, and not FACTS here, and I have not inspected the facility either; but my opinion is worth as much as theirs as I have over thirty years' experience in the engineering and construction industries.)

More importantly regarding these two paragraphs and the "voting":
While we did not take an "Oath of Office" to join the committee, I am familiar with that Oath, with basically says public officials must try to get the most bang for the public buck.  The selection of "alternatives" to present to the BoE should NOT have been a popularity contest, at least not in my opinion.  I cannot recall the exact figures (I have them here somewhere within the many stacks of papers that my wife wants me to toss) but two options using the Verity property were significantly less expensive than the options presented to the board,by well over $10 million dollars!!!  If I recall correctly, one using a renovated Verity building with a substantial addition and the other razing the existing Verity structure and building all new facilities.  Both left more than enough property for all of the athletic facilities required and plenty of acreage left over.

It was (and still is) my very humble opinion that, as with all public officials, the BoE has a DUTY to at least consider the most economical solution that will provide an adequate outcome...and the committee should have provided the BoE with that choice!!!

And who knows--a few hundred more voters might have checked the "YES" box last November if only it would've cost them a few fewer pizzas!!!  Wink
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 4:25pm
By the way, just for the sake of full disclosure, I actually agree--in principal--with Aflatkey!!! Thumbs Up Thumbs Up

I just don't see how it can be done in time for Middletown to meet our own needs.  Having said that, It is my sincere belief that we should proceed in a manner that will provide our children with ADEQUATE FACILITIES AT THE LEAST COST POSSIBLE!!!

(And having said all of that, I'm beginning to like what Acclaro is saying about having our percentage recalculated when our turn comes around again in a few years.)
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote over the hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 4:44pm
I too would like to thank Ms. Andrew for her contributions on this forum. I wish the city council, Doug,Judy and Les could be as forth
coming and informative. Ms. Andrew, you supply us with facts and truths we don't get that from city administrators. It's refreshing and appreciated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aflatkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 6:55pm
Fellow blogers,
 

thanks for your kudos to my opinion,  and remember you don’t have to meet the needs of public education. It is your constitutional right to have your legislators  ( senators and representatives ) to in act the appropriate legislation so that all citizens, residents and legal and illegal aliens ( ouch ) get the free education that the constitution provides for.  Your politicians have been warned by the supreme court 17 years ago to get this constitutional inconsistency  repaired. I don’t know of any person that would want to pay for something out of their own pocket  because of dereliction of duty by the politicians you have elected to represent your constitutional rights. if any would feel that what is available in the public educational system  dose not address their children’s educational needs now , they should consider all alternates besides  public school until the primary problem is fixed. That problem is the governments unwillingness to have equal taxation with equal representation for  public school funding. It also goes beyond that , all schools irregardless of economic or social demographic should be carbon copies of equal opportunity for all children that participate in the public education system. You need to consider the fact that even now your children don’t have equal opportunity in public schools from one district to another. This levy will only give us real estate not equal and fair education across all districts.

 

While some might have a urgency to solve this with your money ( land tax payers ) I suggest  you throw it back in their lap, and have them legislate to fix it the right way.  Like some say , it’s water under the bridge now , its down stream , cant cry over spilt milk , just clean it up.  If your children need help now, its not up to public schools to provide what their educational needs are according to you as a parent with specific hopes and specific standards for their successful education. Since the wide stance of social and economic demographics dictate specific curriculums and goals for students in their own environments you will find that public education is really  a safety net for the parents that don’t have any other recourse but to enroll their children in the system. Think out side the box ,  synergistic integration  like the La Quitna inns commercial

Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !!

Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!

 

Visit

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf

 

and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.

 

please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as

 

Brevity is the soul of wit  

 and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail.

and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946

aflatkey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aflatkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 8:14pm
Think out side the box ,  synergistic integration  like the La Quitna inns commercial

Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !!

Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!

 

Visit

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf

 

and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.

 

please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as

 

Brevity is the soul of wit  

 and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail.

and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 194

aflatkey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul Nagy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 8:29pm
LOLYou have "lost your soul of wit" because you have lacked brevity and your redundency has left a flat key on us all. However, many will probably vote against the levy anyway. LOLLOLLOLLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aflatkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 8:33pm

Chaos Erupts After California Caught Illegally Taxing Residents






please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as

Brevity is the soul of wit   /  and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail.

and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aflatkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 8:43pm

The relationship between property assessment and property taxes





after watching this video you can see people who have property that's high in value get a uneven burden of the tax bill.
that is not equal taxation with equal representation.
that is tax the rich guy more because he has a home with a higher value.
remember of forefathers  said equal taxation with equal representation.
that statement is representative of the citizens as a whole not their social or economic demographic classification.

please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as

Brevity is the soul of wit   /  and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail.

and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946)


aflatkey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 8:55pm

A week ago, I began this topic. To my amazement, the juxtaposition of each side of Phase Two of school project for the Middletown system has been carved, deeply dissected, and presented in a crystalized fashion.

I was leaning NO, but after reading the posts of many, with apologies to names I am unfamiliar, my family and I will be voting a resounding YES to the levy May 6. For myself, and many others which fall into supporting the levy category, we are driven by the words of writer Thomas Paine, whom some who share an “anarchist” philosophy, may have read many of his books, including Common Sense, and others which fueled independence from the British monarch. As Paine said: “One good schoolmaster is more use than a hundred priests.”

Schooling is critical in shaping minds of the future. It is an act of benevolence to support those attending school today, as parents supported the schools when I was growing up, as did parents before those parents. Every child deserves our support, financially, emotionally, and enthusiastically.  

The district project began over a decade ago, and to pull back from funding schools at this fork in the road would harm not only the district, students, and Middletown, but our economy and reputation. Our city has taken some severe hits over time. But, we can’t just throw in the towel, raise our hands in exasperation, and say to ourselves and our neighbors, “it’s over, shut er down.”  By delaying the levy support, even five years, would move the district drastically behind its neighboring communities.

Dissenters have said: “come now, that’s parity, just spending money to keep from falling deeper behind”.  I say, so what! We must not fall further behind, or we are biting our nose to spite our face.                           

Some of raised objections that Vail is too historic to tear down, and must be saved. The building was iron clad, “bullet-proof”, as I have read many discuss car repairs and maintenance. It is evident all around us history is important and protected. The old courthouse in Hamilton will cost hundreds of thousands to restore. For many, its’ worth the investment. There is a difference in a building like Vail, and its’ memories, former athletes risen to glory, former students that rose to prominence, and a new building. A significant difference.

New schools have modernization, ease of expansion, and reduce expenditures that add little to nothing to the instruction of education. A middle school used by kids making the transition from innocence to raging hormones, deepening voices, advanced curiosity, and transition to dating, dances, and serious competitive athleticism creates wear, tear, and abuse. Remember your first try behind an MG or VW bug trying to use a clutch, the manual standard. You have vivid memories of missed gears almost stripping gears, the worn tires, and the sweaty palms as you rolled back on a hill awaiting the red light to change to green. That’s what these middle schools have endured, and withstood, over several generations. We don’t withdrawal from progress, future updates, enhancements, because we are stuck in the past.

There are many reasons to vote this critically important levy down, and there are as many reasons to continue forward. Both cases have been presented. When you step into the booth, or send in the absentee ballot by MAY 6TH, ask yourself two simple question. Did you have the support of parents when you were in school funding the system you attended, and did that education lay the foundation for your success today, your livelihood, and ability to make good decisions throughout your life. Secondly, will voting NO serve benefit to you as a resident in the community, as others looking to invest in Middletown, to move to function as residents, students, and working professionals, or will you cast a protest vote to change a system, or because you think you went through the district when K-12 scrutiny wasn’t in place, and district report cards were not measured on every possible level.

Be a gladiator, get in the coliseum, and vote with a clear conscious.                                    

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aflatkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 9:37pm
this video is a tad bit long but its shows a alternate view of the money funnel that the BOE manages to administrate to its purpose of public education. Since some many of you like statistical analysis there are many slides with all kinds of data and slogans that you might agree with or hate . in the end she points to the fact that accountability at home with parents is the key for a productive and fruit full education. new buildings , new teachers , new administrators , new technology , new enemities, perfect georaphical location, or other atributes will not produce the true positive educational experience with out accountability in the students home............

Published on May 28, 2013

"Why Public Education is Failing Our Children" by Dr. Kelly Kohls, President of the OSBLC (Ohio School Boards Leadership Council), with a focus on the Upper Arlington School System in Upper Arlington, OH.




 



Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !!

Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!

 

Visit

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf

 

and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.

 

please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as



please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as

Brevity is the soul of wit   /  and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail.

and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946)





aflatkey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aflatkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2014 at 10:21pm

Dean i understand your plight. you think your responsible as a tax payer to provide what the Ohio state constitution is supposed to provide FREE of CHARGE to all citizens threw equal taxation with equal representation. you state "It is an act of benevolence" to support your school system. FREE WILL BENEVOLENCE is never suggested, administered, required, imposed, taxed, or expected. FREE WILL BENEVOLENCE is giving out of your kind hart with no recompense or salutation to ones work as a achievement in ones legacy. So if you are truly a benevolent citizen please fix the schools need for real estate and geographical location with your benevolent hart. We will respect your privacy as true FREE WILL BENEVOLENCE goes with a gladness in ones hart to help others in a time of need. In other words if you suggest that it is benevolent to endorse the school  bond levy , and just by your suggestion that we should all co-operate with your concept,  you have robed us of our FREE  WILL from the benevolent act your propose. I imagine that might seem confusing, irrational, or incoherent, however it lines up with the teachings that have been handed down to generations of people threw BENEVOLENT  doctrines around the world. True FREE WILL BENEVOLENCE is practiced with out recompense or influence on others.


Abolish the property tax for the school system!! its unconstitutional !!

Vote no on may 6 if you want to START making a change in the current system!!

 

Visit

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Middletown-Ohio-Vote-NO-on-Issue-3/784089358269325?ref=br_tf

 

and like the page to show support of your constitutional freedoms in Ohio.

 

please don't hesitate to tell me your opinion as

 

Brevity is the soul of wit  

 and with out laughter over the kinks in society anarchy might prevail.

and that's the rest of the story , good day ( Paul Harvey 1946)

aflatkey
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 3:57pm
Mr. aflatkey,
 
I found many of your links filled with useful information.
 
However, I need to correct what you say about property tax not being constitutional.
 
I use the example the calculation you posted two posts above. It shows property taxes are constitutional. There is equal taxation, as you show in your example, at 27%. There is equal representation as voters would be given an equal chance to either defeat or pass the levy you show above.
 
It is constitutional, as there is equal taxation, and equal representation.
 
LOL
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aflatkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 5:34pm
Sleepy mymy opinion is that all citizens and residents should pay equal tax with equal representation. In other words to tax a person that has a higher value home more in public school land tax than a person in a lower value home is discrimination. All citizens should contribute equaly not based on their wealth or lack of wealth. In that video it showed that if property values rose a person with higher value home was paying more than his fair share. Equal representation for equal taxation is the thread that needs to be defined as in the video if local expenses were 1000.00 for the taxing district a equal share for 3 homes is 333.33 a year. Each house hold pays a equal part for their services. The minute you put property values into the equation it becomes unequal taxation of citizens because of the assumed value of their property. You see useing property values to overtax the rich is the unequality all citizens should be taxed the same amount of cash value for it to be equal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aflatkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 6:02pm
its one thing to apply a rate of taxation on income tax depending on your income level. that is a principal that  can be addressed in a blog by itself. however property value as a guide to increased tax on different citizens for the purpose of equal education threw equal taxation is not fair. the rich child only gets a high school diploma  like the poor child. why should the rich family pay more for the same diploma for their child as a poor child gets the diploma for less because his family pays less property tax.  you see that is the unfair taxation with out equal representation.
think about it  equality is every citizen pays a equal and fair share in respect to the population not the property value.
this change  is what needs to be made so equality in taxation of public schools is fair to all citizens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 7:31pm
Mr. aflatkey,

You are confused. It is equal taxation because it is based on percentage. Take Butler County for example. Tax rate is 33% for all properties, excluding non profits.

The state tax level, for income, is about 3.5%, and that is equal, for all people.

How do you handle the non profit hospitals with your plan? We'll leave the porch light on for you.

Wacko   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aflatkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 8:33pm
The % is the problem, it should be a flat tax that represents cost of services divided equaly by districts population. That is equal dollar for dollar to each house hold. Don't leave a light on , I'm not comming over any time soon. LOL !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aflatkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 8:52pm
I don't know a hospital that dose not pay its employees and the employees profit from their work there .additionally they keep on building more health care facilitys all around the nation. They must be making money as the stock market is invested heavy'ly in health care industry. It is a cash cow for the investors. If its a non profit hospital its now out of the new health care protocols. Just look at your health care cost.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote acclaro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2014 at 10:31pm
Now that we have agreed aflatkey that it is constitutional to use property tax to fund schools, and you said there are no non profit hospitals in the United States, we should look at sales tax, and federal tax.

Is it constitutional to pay sales tax in Ohio, and also the county tax, as that would be 6.5% in Butler county, and gas tax is 3.5% per $1.00 spent at the gas pump. That also is constitutional because the tax amount is equal for everyone, and that includes the sales tax and the excise tax on gas. You can't vote on the tax, but is an equal tax on all, as all can chose not to buy gas and to not buy items which are subject to a sales tax.

In reality, everything you indicate is unconstitutional, is constitutional, using your own definition. Or would you have everyone pay the same for all items, groceries, would be limited to a flat 100.00, gas, a flat 20.00 purchase.

It doesn't work. Aren't you trying to get a protest vote to defeat the levy when everything is constitutional?     
'An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.' - Winston Churchill
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