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When does it get better?

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wasteful View Drop Down
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    Posted: Aug 25 2010 at 3:12am
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Vivian Moon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 25 2010 at 3:51am

Wasteful

It’s time to lock the doors and freeze all wages.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 25 2010 at 6:36am
Well, there it is in black and white. The old area school comparison we have been seeing for many many years. And, with the same old results that we have been seeing for many many years. Middletown is ALWAYS on the bottom of the totem pole. Only school in single digits with 5 indicators met. Now....when you bring this to the attention of the superintendent (as I did years ago at the old seniors center when the school folks were having one of their "rah-rah" meetings and Price was still blowing hot air) and you confront him and he says, "well I don't see it that way!", exactly how are you suppose to carry on a conversation with people like that, when you have the cold hard facts in front of you and they still deny that they are performing poorly? It ain't logical thinkin' on their part.

School officials state that the school system was in "flux" and "transition". Nifty little descriptors for avoiding the real explanation to the public I guess. Midd. schools will get 1.4 mil but the levies will keep coming according to Alberico, as the new money is "soft money" and more of your levy dollars are needed to.......perform at the same level as the previous six years which is 5 of 30 indicators met and at the bottom of the list I suppose. When will they actually adopt a viable program to attack the on-going performance issues? Has anyone seen any eye-opening new techniques that really made a difference or has there been only subtle changes that made no impact at all? Why have we been doing the same failed things for at least 6 years in a row, without trying something different and living with the same results? Rasmussen has been a good cheerleader. Now, let's see him make some real changes and correct the Price mess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 25 2010 at 11:41am
Pretty pathetic numbers.
 
But rest assured,it will get better when the next school levy is passed. It always gets better with a levy.Levies fix everything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 25 2010 at 1:22pm
If student acheivement is closely associated with parental involvement, as our Super believes, maybe the city should have used that PAC money to bribe the parents to get their kids grades up.  Call it "Cash for C's", "Cash for Caring", "Cash for putting down the Beer, Smokes, and Remote",or maybe "(no) Cash for Flunkers!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 26 2010 at 7:28am
That's right Hermes....more money = better results.......new schools = better results......changing supers = better results......passing levies = better results. We've been doing these things for many years. Have we seen better results? You be the judge. The school folks, each year, say that they are improving. Then, when the test scores are published, we all see the truth and know that we have been fooled again. Yet, we keep rewarding this by continually passing their levies. Historic performance and logic says not to keep funding this any longer. This school system is flat out not worth another dime until they make some major changes. The current programs have never been successful, yet, they never have made any significant changes. The last time this school system performed was in the 60's/70's. The 80's started the downward spiral to what it is today.

Ms. Andrew, you have been a participant on this forum. You have defended the school system against our comments in the past. How do you view this situation? Please explain to us why this performance continues to occur and what sweeping changes are being established to eliminate this consistent poor performance? Do you still think we taxpayers should be obligated to pass any future levies based on these results? Is this performance a bargain for the money we are giving to the schools? Thank you for any response in the future.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dooraghero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 21 2010 at 6:43am
"But rest assured,it will get better when the next school levy is passed. It always gets better with a levy.Levies fix everything. "   That seems to be the attitude.  There is no real incentive for improvement when all that has to be done is to put another levy on the ballot and engage in a public relations campaign advertising that the levy must be passed "for the children"  or that if not passed, businesses will not locate here. 
Would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that for one chance,just one chance to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives but they'll never take our FREEDOM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcia Andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 21 2010 at 1:02pm
Vet, I did not see your post the first time around. At last night's school board meeting, we had a long discussion on the state report card results and what the district is doing to improve, including professional development to support the teachers' efforts to improve the quality of instruction. I suggest you try to catch a re-play on TV Middletown as there is much more detail discussed than I could repeat here.  The programs of the past few years have "clicked" at several buildings that moved up to Effective on the state report card; we need to keep that progress going and spread it to every building in the district.
 
Marcia Andrew
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 21 2010 at 1:17pm
Nice to hear that improvement is happening in some of the schools to the effective level Ms. Andrew. Will try to watch the details, as you suggest tonight. You do understand my frustration and impatience with waiting for years for something good to happen with our schools. The only thing one has to go by is the chart at the top of this page which is self-explanatory and sad after all these years. We taxpayers get tired of throwing money at the problem and seeing no improvement especially after all this time.

It also exacerbates the situation because I was in this school system when it was top-notch and respected in the area. Produced some fine people that went on to be successful. Had 30 per class and the teachers still got the job done. Also had deterrants like Stan Lewis, Dean of Boys, who would crack your behind just as much as look at you. Since the schools took that deterrant out of the schools, the discipline has never been the same and the students are not intimidated any longer. Wrong direction IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Marcia Andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 21 2010 at 1:30pm
Vet, physical discipline at public schools is against the law. Has been for years. I do agree, however, that we need to have very clear, consistent expectations as to behavior and very clear, consistent consequences for any failure to comply with those behavior expectations.
 
Marcia Andrew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 21 2010 at 1:49pm
"we need to have very clear, consistent expectations as to behavior and very clear consistent consequences for any failure...."

Which brings us back to the problem of HOW we re-enforce those expectations and consequences. Words mean nothing to those who don't respect the system. If we keep on our current path of telling them, pleading with them, consulting the parents and asking them to help the schools keep little Johnny in line, and proceed with the "coddling program" in place, all we get is more disrespect from little Johnny, little Johnny laughs at the methods used to communicate expectations and consequences and is basically not intimidated at all by the people who are suppose to have the authority. I realize, that because society doesn't want the authority figures in the schools touching one hair on little Johnny's head, that that is the reason it has gotten to such a pathetic state of affairs as to respect from the students. Ever thought how the military gets all the little Johnny's eating, marching, folding their clothes, fighting, learning a military skill, going to bed and rising every morning at the same time and doing things in an orderly fashion? Discipline- identify expectations and follow through with corporal punishment if they step out of line. Expecting the same from all who participate and having repercussions for the violators- harsh repercussions. Need some "boot camp" instilled in the schools, Ms. Andrew. You have witnessed what the "coddling" program does for you and it ain't pretty. Hard line approach for hard line attitudes is the only way. Have seen it in military boot camp myself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bocephus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 22 2010 at 11:13am
Im afraid the education in the city will never improve until some of the parents actualy start to care until then spending all the money in the world wont make a difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 03 2010 at 4:56am

Vet
I have been working with two children this year and you can’t imagine how bad it really is. Their parents and the school system have failed these two children over the years.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 6:27am
Well, we have some more results from the schools in the Journal today....


“We should see progress as we go along,” Carter said. “This helps us make adjustments along the way.”
- Betsy Carter- SENIOR DIErector of Learning


“We know where our kids need help,” said Debbie Alberico, district spokeswoman, who added that the district hopes a new math program in place at the elementary level begins to raise the district’s commonly low math scores.

The program, called Investigations in Time and Space, encourages student participation by playing an assortment of games, often in small groups. How about that, another program to try and with games included!

Twenty-thirty years now, working on improving the learning process from when the problems first started back in the 70's-80's?

And on and on it goes........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 9:09am
It's all excuses in my opinion. A very real lack of responsibility on everyones part from parents to school teachers to administrators.
 
Or it could be the water & air contamination. Since I've lived in Middeltown I'm not as smart as I use to be.
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 9:20am
I put 80% of the responsibility on parents and students.
You have to WANT it to benefit from it.
You must WANT your child to get a proper education, and prepare them daily for the opportunity.
You must feed them, clothe them, encourage them, work with them, and nourish them in every way mentioned.
 
The students must walk into the building awake, eager and prepared. 5 days per week.
The meals are there--the teachers for the large part DO care and work very hard at their profession.
Amazing how many students(particularly the very young) don't even make it to the building more than 1-2 days per week. Can't teach/develop them if you can't get them to show up.
Once again it falls back on the parents and priorities.
 
Too many un-educated parents are almost afraid to have their children be better educated than themselves. Jealousy and fear of status loss as the primary role model. So sad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 9:44am
Spider, I agree.  How can anyone think our teachers and administrators are utilizing methods that are that much different than surrounding districts.  The difference is the students and their parents/home life. 
 
Problems are complicated.  Solutions aren't easy, whether it's education or business development.  But, according to some on this board, that is a bunch of hooey.  They demand results and the failure to excel is an indictment of the system and those that run it.  It may feel good to vent about problems in that way but it also is an approach that results in more failure.  Like the 70's and 80's when George Steinbrenner constantly threatening to fire a Yankees manager if they didn't win the series every year, regardless of roster considerations, injuries, bad trades, etc. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 12:56pm
Alrighty then! Nice shot Bill on the "according to some on this board, that is a bunch of hooey" comment. Question on accountability.....exactly what is the criteria for holding the teachers, administrators and the parents accountable and how long should we wait for the accountability thing to kick in for producing improved results? Ten more years? Twenty more maybe? What will it take for people to see that the system in place and the effort put forward ain't cuttin' it in the Midd. school system? If the difference in receiving a decent education is indeed the students and their parents and home life, how long do we wait to see the schools, the courts, teh parents, the parent's employers and the lawmakers all get together to act on this acknowledged denier of a kid getting an education? Or do we just keep it business as usual with the continued poor results, continued non-accountability of both the school personnel, the parents and the lack of involvement from the courts? What's the answer in your opinion?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 2:36pm
There is a certain accountability already -- the last Superintendent is now gone and new leadership is here.  I'm willing to give him a couple years.  As for accountability of the teachers, I agree that fundamental changes at the state level are needed --- if that means World War 3 with the union so be it.  Terminations must be easier for bad teachers.  As for parents, what can we do?  There's already a court process for truancy, unless that has been changed. You're not going to be able to prosecute parents for non-involvement.
 
Maybe overhauling the state report card method is needed.  Many criticize it already.  Though I doubt this would happen, perhaps one element of performance could be a statistic that compares test results with the poverty level in the community, # of disabled kids, etc.  Sort of a bell curve. 
 
I don't have all the answers but I think criticizing a district for not generating the same performance numbers as affluent districts is a flawed game.  A game that is rigged by the nature of the rules.  Like yelling at the McDonald's "chef" who can't come up with a meal that compares to the fancy French chef.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 4:10pm
OK Vet---accountability is there now and has always been there. It would be so simple if accountability meant better results. Our schools mirror our community, state and nation. We have a low-income, blue collar to no-collar community now. The good ole days that we all loved so much are gone forever. We are in a different world now, like it or not.
 
IMO Roosevelt School symbolizes so much of what is happening now. Look at the grand structure and monument to our local heritage. It seems to be giving the demo crew all they can handle and more. It is refusing to come down quickly or easily, and imo shouldn't be coming down at all. But it is coming down hell or high water regardless of the cost or necessity to create another green(hopefully) "space" in the community(right in the middle of Cental Ave.). I can literally hear that loyal building scream in pain every time that I drive by.
 
I was fortunate to spend one day as pretend principal in one of our schools.
Wonderful facility--excellent admin--what seemed to be a very caring dedicated group of teachers(many local faces). The children were from a lower income part of town. I spent time reading and interacting with every 1st grade class. The kids were quiet and sullen until I tallked TO them instead of AT them. Once they realized that they were recieving personal attention, they exploded with conversation. They LOVED talking about their home, their pets, their school and most importantly themselves.
 
I spent an hour or more observing the lunch room. When lunch was completed, these elementary students CLEANED THE CAFETERIA. WIPED OFF THE TABLES AND CHAIRS, SWEPT THE FLOOR AND FILLED THE TRASH. They did it completely, all without any bad attitudes.
 
I attended what was called a "data meeting", where all 1st grade teachers sat down with the principal, asst.principal and an admin rep to discuss classroom progress. Students were divided into three groups--excellent--average--below average, with the conversation revolving around where each student was headed--up down or lateral. The primary concern was getting the students in the door each day. I listened while VERY concerned teachers talked about children who miss at least two to most of the school days per week, and known problems within these youngsters' households. Being in my position, I also knew a lot of the parents of these students, so I knew just how badly things were for many of them.
 
The facilities are excellent--the principals that I know are very good--the teachers that I know or have met seemed to care as much as possible. I ran into a few older retired teachers there who were simply volunteering their time to tutor and mentor.
 
The "problem" you mention is huge, and there is no real answer out there. We have ONE truant officer in the system, who is absolutely overwhelmed. The principal makes home visits when the parents refuse to respond. There is only so much that anyone can do when you don't have the co=operation of the parents and guardians. We are living the product of our current low-end environment. We honestly will struggle to greatly improve or succeed.
 
We need to get these children motivated from early on before they ever set foot in our schools. The parents need to participate in the MCF's Dolly Parton Imagination Library program, which was brought to Middletown by MCF leader Duane Gorden. A chance to teach our own children reading and other positive habits preparing them to enter the system.
 
We need citizen volunteers to work with the youngest students. Retired citizens--those whose children have moved on--those without children--pretty much anyone who really cares and wants to make a difference. Once we get a foothold in the beginning of these young minds, we can change everything for the better. Teachers will be better able to do their jobs--scores will improve because students will want to be highly educated for all of the right reasons. Eventually the parents will be changed not by us, but by their own children. Eventually these children will become the parents.
 
Do your part--tutor/mentor--volunteer--run for office--something.
We all have the time if we really care about this.
 
jmo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smartman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 5:16pm
Could not have said it better Spider! Every word is true. My mother who is 84 years oldvolunteers at one of the elementary'sfor the reading program, and it is making a difference. This is going to be a long process. New Super in charge Vet, give him a chance. The old days are gone, its a different situation from when you were a child of you kids were in school. Stop living in the past!!! Thumbs%20Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 5:53pm
Bill says, "don't have all the answers but I think criticizing a district for not generating the same performance numbers as affluent districts is a flawed game". What???? Where did I say that I wouldn't accept any other performance than the ones in the affluent districts, Bill. Re-read my post. You are interjecting crap into my post that isn't there! I have in the past and am currently asking for the Middletown school district to make some progress in a reasonable amount of time.---THAT'S ALL. Look at the indicators----5 out of 30 for how many years Bill. Mercy!!! I am not asking for a Mason, West Chester, or Springboro school system and the achievements that they have had. I am asking for the school system to NOT TAKE 10 years to move from 5 of 30 indicators to 6 of 30. They have been spinning their wheels far too long despite new elementary schools being built which they said would improve results, and endless number of "new and improved" programs that are suppose to stimulate upward results, changing new superintendents BEFORE RASMUSSEN (so as to give the new guy a chance as you wish) and a multitude of other attempts to raise the performance. Yet, we keep giving them good money to follow bad invested for what- more of the same-year after year? Sorry, I don't agree with the constant excuses used by you and other school supporters, year after year. Hell, you're all like the Bengal fans. You pray and hope that next year will be successful and making excuses when they find out it was another bust on the football season.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 5:59pm
Vet, you're right.  You have called for improvement, not necessarily a rating of "Excellence".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VietVet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 6:50pm
Spider- if the problem is low income, poor, and the stereotyped phrases that are associated with these people, (no involvement in the educational process happens), why is the city doing everything in it's power to create that same atmosphere right here in this town? And why hasn't the school district marched into city hall and put up some meaningful resistance to the town that is acquiring so many poor, low income residents? I haven't heard much outcry from the school people about all the Section 8. Some token complaints at Highview Elementary when council and the school board "faced off" for dual meetings that evening.

Are you willing to dismiss the "stuck on 5 of 30 indicators" thing? Are you willing to dismiss the ever present basement status on every proficiency test category when compared to surrounding districts- RICH AND POOR? How do you feel about that?

It's a "different world", as you all say it is, is not entirely true. There are the same discipline problems in school today as in the past. Just no corporal punishment program anymore to deal with it. The SCHOOLS decided to remove that segment of the discipline ladder. Now, it's a cake and ice cream world and the troublemakers laugh at the authority figures in the schools now. They didn't dare laugh in the past. Sometimes life is made too easy for the young people. Not doing them any favors later on in life when it chews them up and spits them out.

Glad that you enjoyed your time at one of the elementary schools. Nice report regarding all the wonderful things that are being accomplished. As a taxpayer, with limited interaction with the schools, all I see is the bottom line....the test scores when they are reported. They never improve- they never approach an "average" level of expectations. They always disappoint, especially when considering the amount of money that is being pumped into this bottomless pit.

Yeah, I know the facilities are excellent. State of the art. The 45 million dollar bond from the taxpayers made that happen. And what have we gotten for our money to date? Tell me again? Price's golden elixir selling the fools that new schools translated into improved performance because "kids can learn better in newer surroundings" -Yeah right!

If the truant officer is overwhelmed, perhaps we could get rid of the school spokeswoman and get us another truant officer and put the salary money to better use.



You, Bill, Smartman and other school supporters are willing to keep rowing the oars in the leaking ship as it's sinking. I'm not willing to be as supportive and am tired of waiting and tired of hearing all the excuses/buzzwords in the world as to why it didn't happen again this year. I'm out of patience. It's been thirty years of mediocrity at best.

Spider- you are an employer (taxpayer). What happens to the employee (school personnel) who has been given chances time and time again to improve because the employer has listened to the hard luck stories the employee has told each time and for many years? Do you keep giving them a chance by assigning a drop dead date to change or else, do you terminate them for repeated poor performance after hearing the same old crap time and time again, or do you keep 'em on hoping against hope that they will change and living with the same results when performance appraisal time come around? To date, that is exactly what we are doing with this school system. JMO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smartman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 16 2010 at 7:36pm
Same ole same ole Vet! Quit the excuses and volunteer at the schools to see what IS changing. Areas are improving, but I guess in your warped sense of reality if we dont have 30 out of 30 tomorrow we are failing. If you are really concerned as you say, stop all of you excuses and all of your complaining and GET INVOLVED!!! BE A MENTOR AT THE SCHOOLS AND SINCE YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT A GREAT PARENT YOUR, MENTOR SOME OF THE PARENTS. THE SCHOOLS WOULD BE EXTREMELY GRATEFUL!!!Angry But then it is easier to hide behind  excuses and finger pointing!! Keep it up, you are a fine example. LOL  NOT!!!
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