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Monday, May 6, 2024 |
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The State of the City of Middletown |
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Posted: Jun 19 2008 at 3:46pm |
Yeah the same "error in Judgement" they are going to make in not seriously reducing the Section 8 Housing in Middletown.
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Mike
I think I would buy you a big cup of coffee to hear the rest of this story.
"error in judgement"...doesn't begin to be explain this. |
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Vivian,
Whether you were in town or not has little bearing.
This was a well-kept secret! I heard it from a usually very reliable, reputable source who wouldn't even mention it to me until well after the fact. You would be amazed at some of the details of the offer. I'm not surprised that City Hall insisted on secrecy. Turning the offer down was an astounding error in judgement...even beyond what our leaders usually show. I had trouble believing it myself!
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Mike
Thanks for the information...I didn't know the rest of the story on the Casino.
I must have been out of state when that happened. If the City can't manage to get any industrial jobs into the City tax system then they better come up with a new plan in a hurry. They can dump all the millions they want into downtown but without a major attraction it's a total waste of money. We have become the dumping ground of Warren and Butler County for Section 8 and HUD housing. What ever happened to the plan of building more condo units like Trinity Place in the downtown area? We can't even support a shopping center....so now we build Dollar Stores all over Middletown. We need to clean up the City and get it ready for some new development. We need a new vision for Middletown. |
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.308
MUSA Resident Joined: Aug 17 2007 Status: Offline Points: 192 |
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Wow, three things I have no use for all in one post: Mr. Robinson, a casino, or anyting in Monroe. LOL. Just kidding.. kind of. |
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Perhaps I wasn’t clear. When the Shawnee Tribe came to this area to develop a casino a few years back, they came WITH a proposal for a specific site IN Middletown, NEAR downtown, and literally a stone’s throw from the Great Miami River Levee. This specific location was their FIRST CHOICE of sites for a casino in southwestern Ohio. Their proposal was EXTREMELY generous. Our city leaders did not want a casino there, and turned them down FLAT, since it did not fit with our leaders‘ plans for how downtown should be developed! (But just be patient, if we dump a few hundred million more taxpayer dollars downtown the way the “stakeholders” want, exciting things will happen!) Our leaders then took the Shawnee representatives as far EAST as they could, hidden from view of I-75, and still be inside the proposed city limits, and TOLD the Shawnee that was where they would ALLOW them to try to build it. (As if that could ever happen in such close proximity to three schools, and several churches.) Then Mr. Robinson found that Monroe might be willing to ASSIST the Shawnee in developing a site of the Shawnee’s choice in Monroe, even if it was right in FULL VIEW of I-75. Good-bye “business friendly Middletown”, HELLO Monroe! Bottom line? Don’t look for the Shawnee to come back to Middletown again…they KNOW where they stand here. Don’t look for any other tribe either, as the Shawnee now have the first and best claim to the area. |
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VietVet
MUSA Council Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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"Getting the casino in Ohio is the problem"- You are correct! Wish people( and lawmakers) would stop listening to the CCV people and the ultra right wingers who want to deny opportunities for jobs for Ohio people, deny entertainment for Ohio people and deny much needed revenue for the cities in Ohio, all because they deem casinos bad for society. Problem is, people( and politicians) actually listen to them and heed their words. In the meantime, we are surrounded by states that have become more progressive and have sought out other revenue generators rather than taxing people to financial ruin. We lived in Tucson in 2004/2005. Tucson has three casinos, which are money generators. Taxes are kept lower and crime/prostitution/bankruptcies, the so-called negatives of casinos, was not excessive.(According to the daily newspapers and news channels) We are constantly hearing from these anti-casino people about these areas of concern, but we experienced none of that while there, rather, people with jobs, entertainment and tax money being collected by Tucson. Funny- You rarely hear the words "tax levy" in Tucson.
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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While you are correct HereIam getting the Casino is the problem, in OH.
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HereIam
MUSA Resident Joined: Oct 29 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 108 |
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Just a thought - if a casino is built on the Great Miami in the Middletown area - and additional money is brought in to the City - wouldn't that solve most of our problems? Money for Roads, Money for Schools, Money for Downtown. All you have to do is look at the nice improvements being doing in Lawrenceburg, IN to see that a casino can be a beneficial asset to a community and a good neighbor. If people from Ohio are going to spend money gambling anyway, why not keep it in Ohio?
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Ernie
MUSA Immigrant Joined: Jun 09 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 18 |
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Casino in Ohio...I'm not holding my breath!!! As long as Ohio has there LOTTO system in place helping all of the schools Ohio, we will not see a Casino. I wonder what all else the Ohio Lotto supports????
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Latest I could find. Still very low compared to neighboring communities and that is the major problem that Middletown must deal with as far as Retail is concerned......discretionary income and the lack of it. |
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arwendt
MUSA Official Joined: May 17 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 588 |
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Latest Median Income Figures: Mason +/- $ 88K |
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Past talk of a Casino for Middletown.
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Mike
This area was a favorite hunting ground of the Ancient Indians for hundreds of years. The Miami tribe came first but when the white man came to settle the Shawnee tribe was living in the Madison Twp area.
This is a perfect place for an Indian Casino along the banks of the Great Miami. Maybe we could even rethink "Lake Middletown" and include it in this recreational wonderland of the future. |
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Vivian: I agree with most of what you say. Of course it would be a Herculean task to clear all of the legal hurdles for a casino. Then again, we wouldnt even need good streets for a casino! Do you recall the drive from the interstate to Bel Tera or to the Grand Victoria for the first ten or so years? Of course, our city leaders already said NO!!! once. According to a usually very reliable source on such matters, when the Shawnee (I think it was the Shawnee) tribe first came to the area, their very first choice was to make our city fathers a spectacular offer on some property near downtown and just a literal stones throw from the banks of the Great Miami River! Of course, that wasnt in the master plan so they were turned down flat and escorted out east of I-75. |
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Gee, Spider, I hope that you are correct, BUT: Your candidate for State rep has a CPA office which doesnt rely on drive-by business. He voted to spend tens of millions of bag holder money on downtown, and always seemed sure of big results. Yet, I notice that HE hasnt moved HIS office downtown! And your friend Honest Dave voted to send tens and tens of millions of bag holder money downtown during his 14-year tenure. He promised prosperity with every vote to spend more. Yet when HE decided to open a specialty restaurant and sports bar, HE didnt go downtown! He went as far east as he could get on the cheap! So you think the long term investment looks good downtown? Does this mean that you might be starting up something there? Let me know, if its anything I can support, I will. In fact, is the kitchen at the wine place open late? If I can get a cold beer and a good hamburger, Ill meet you there and buy you a glass or two of that fancy grape stuff. |
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Paceman
I disagree. Half the cars at the casino parking lot are from Ohio.
How many people in Middletown buy lottery tickets or play bingo each week? People who gamble...gamble. How to design a road system from I-75 to a downtown casino is another question. In order to fill the stores in downtown the lease rate needs to be a percentage of sales not by square foot. This would fill the store fronts and give the business time to get established. Most businesses fail within the first five years of operation. Maybe a business mentoring program could be started. Spiderjohn is correct, cheap office space downtown would fill many of these empty buildings. A tech business just needs office space and a phone line. Will Middletown return to the days of old?..NO! However we have some very bright businessmen still living in Middletown. I bet if they all got together with a great bottle of wine they could come up with a better plan for our future. |
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Average income in Middletown is about $35-40K pricey will not cut it in this town. Not enough people to support it. With gas going to $5-6.00 gallon you will not be able to count on out of towners to support it. Just look at how many basic service and retail places are going under.
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spiderjohn
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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I disagree pacman
I think there is more excitement in trying something in the down town area as close to the river as possible.
I am a lifer here(so far), and old enough to have great memories of that area.
I won't ever be a town center again, but it could be a great alternative destination from the east end. A couple of specialty restaurants and sports bars, + the theaters, add a coffee shop and CHEAP office space, and we could eventually have a very convenient area.
If I am going out towards I-75, then I might as well hop on to somewhere better just up or down the interstate.
I like the long-term investment upside.
AND we had a great time opening night at the new wine bistro.
Cool owners and staff--tried three excellent wines that I didn't know at all.
Pricey but quality. Hope that place makes it, though they need a few neighbors.
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Pacman
Prominent MUSA Citizen Joined: Jun 02 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2612 |
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Is there a majority of Middletown citizens that really think downtown Middletown is ever going to come back to anything even near what it was? My Doctor just moved over to Atrium off of Central. Even if you redeveloped downtown which I personally think is a big IF why would the Doctors go the opposite direction of the Hospital? 99% won't. You have the professional medical buildings going in at Atrium and most Doctors are probably going to stay on Breiel or east of Breiel.
Developement is moving East and that is where the Accountants and Lawyers are going to go for the most part. Yeah you will have the Maverick that thinks he is going downtown and be the hero and there will be much hoopla about it as there is now when someone says they are moving in downtown, but that is it.
Unless you have MILLIONS to pour into downtown, I personally don't see much development that is sustainable going down there. If you just have Office space you will have the type of downtown that rolls the sidewalk up at 5:00pm and that will be it. Most retail can not survive in such a small downtown area that does not include significant Residential space. Offices will get you the 9-5 crowd but we are not talking skyscrapers where you have 100's of thousands of people.
I think Middletown and its politicians are fooling themselves and its citizens that the downtown is ever going to be revived without a major attraction.
To think you are going to throw a few million here and a few million there and bring it back is fool hardy. I have lived here 4 years and been downtown exactly 4 times, and yes I live on the east end. There is just nothing that is there now or in the future that would make me go down there on a regular basis. Did someone say a casino, Ok I would go down there once in a while for some entertainment.
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Vivian Moon
MUSA Council Joined: May 16 2008 Location: Middletown, Ohi Status: Offline Points: 4187 |
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Downtown Revitalization Efforts
Mike The real problem with the downtown revitalization program is it is 30 years to late. All the doctors, attorneys and accounting firms that once had offices in the downtown area are now gone. Until these types of bussinesses return to downtown it will be difficult to get enough foot traffic to support small retail business. Local Money Men have not invested because they are well aware that....Retail Follows Money...example: the retail growth of West Chester and Mason area.
So you are faced with the big question of what would make a large number of people get off I-75 to come into the Middletown downtown area? What is special about the location of Middletown? And the answer seems to be a casino on the banks of the Great Miami River, maybe on the West Middletown side because of the higher ground. I believe it will take a major attration of this type to bring life back into the downtown area or we will continue to throw good money after bad. I know this is not in the Master Plan but it's time to think outside the box. |
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Mike_Presta
MUSA Council Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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QUOTE=John Beagle: Mr. Beagle: Since I assume that you agree with the mayor (after all, you did quote him), I would like to take this opportunity to respectfully disagree with the both of you on two of the four items, and to comment on a third, as I am quite perplexed as to exactly how they can be considered to be helping Middletown. First, let us examine Downtown Revitalization Efforts. In my view, these efforts at revitalization began in the mid-seventies, before I moved out of the area for a long period. It began with the so-called stakeholders (those with a personal financial interest in downtown property or businesses) trying to convince the legislative authority (city commission/city council) to invest OTHER PEOPLEs money (those other people being the taxpayers or bag holders) into whatever scheme or idea these stakeholders had that they felt was too risky for their own money. This has now continued for over THIRTY YEARS! Yet, we bag holders are still being told to be patient. Now Mr. Beagle, Im sure that you will agree that Middletown has had (and still does have) many very rich and competent developers who have made literal fortunes exercising their visions and judgments developing commercial, residential, and even industrial property in and around Middletown. Doesnt anyone else find it odd that not even ONE of these veritable LEGENDS of local business has seen the merit in downtown Middletown with enough conviction to invest THEIR money in the area? Hasnt anyone asked themselves why, if downtown Middletown is such a gem, developers have not lined up to invest during the last thirty-plus years? But even when such shrewd, successful developers who have the means, the acumen, the track record, and the civic pride to donate MILLIONS to local worthy causes cannot find a reason to invest, somehow a parade of individuals, five or seven at a time, with NO such credentials think that THEY have the know-how just because they sit down in a city hall chair. They think that somehow THAT makes them smarter than the ones who have actually made fortunes in development. And the ONLY idea throughout the years has been to THROW MONEY AT IT! Hasnt insanity been defined as doing the same thing over and over and over again while expecting a different result? And consider the total cost! All of the taxpayers money invested in downtown since the mid-seventies, if converted into 2008 dollars equals a NINE figure total! (And yes, that is NINE digits to the LEFT of the decimal point! So, I ask you, exactly HOW has this helped Middletown? In fact, it is nearly the same, in 2008 dollars, as the amount needed to put EVERY LANE-MILE of Middletowns roads and streets into tip-top, first-class condition! So, how much MORE of the bag holders money do you think should be spent? Now please do NOT misunderstand. I am NOT against downtown development! I just believe that the same people who have the visions and want the rewards should do it with their OWN money! The stakeholders should also be the bag holders! Fair enough? Next, lets look at the percent Safety Levy Approval. Let me make one thing perfectly clear: In my humble opinion, Middletown does need MORE police and fire resources, both as far as manpower and as far as physical plant repairs/replacement. I recall the spring of 2007, just before the special election, when the local politicians were promoting the 0.75% payroll tax increase. Out of the NINE million dollars per year that they said this would bring in, they said that only $500,000.00 per year would go to police and fire, AND they said that<12> |
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