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The next big thing!

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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2010 at 3:41am
Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

...I know of no such proviso in the current forgivable loan to PAC.  But if you think about it, having a forgivable loan is actually a better position for the city to be in than the deal offered to Armco.  If Mr. Verity's company had reached some certain employment level, and then he decided for whatever reason, to shut down the Middletown mill, the city would still, under the terms as you and I understand it, have had to give him the money. ...
In closing, I will say I am skeptical of things like this, that some dunce(s) on city council will be duped by some "investor" with grand plans for some enterprise in Middletown, but in this case there seems to have been some vetting and there is something of a proven track record of success.  Again, time will tell. 
VoR:

Well, I have thought about it, and this city’s idea of a “forgivable loan” is in no way a better position for the city to be in than the deal offered to Armco.

In the case of Armco, if Armco failed to live up to their end of the bargain, the city was in a position to seize all assets, sue their pants off, and at least attempt to recoup their investment.

In the case of PAC, the “forgivable loan” is a “loan” in name only. There are no terms or requirements for “repaying” the loan EVER, under ANY circumstances!!! (Yes, I have read the contract documents included in the workbook and made part of the legislation.) The “loan” is $200,000 that Verdin gets to use, in addition to the money already spent by the city, to upgrade, remodel and outfit the property as he sees fit. All PAC has to do is to “remain in operation” for ten years and not only is the “loan” forgiven, but also Verdin gets free, clear title to 7 N. Broad St. There is no definition of “remain in operation”. If PAC “ceases operation” during the ten years, the property reverts to the City, after Verdin has 30 days to clear out everything of value and “vacate the premises”!!! There are absolutely NO TERMS for payments of ANY KIND under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!

Referring to this arrangement as a “loan” is akin to referring to the Grand Canyon as a “ditch”!!!

Verdin either sticks around and ends up owning the property, including the taxpayer-financed improvements, or he washes his hands and walks away whenever he feels like it.

PAC can “remain in operation” without ever having even ONE employee, or the city seeing even one red cent of tax revenue!!! All he need do is lease out a few “studios” to “artists” who can then choose to sell their wares (or not) WHEREVER they care to sell them.

As far as the “proven track record of success”, I believe that I wrote about the differences between Rising Sun (a rural location with two casinos that bring in thousands of visitors EVERY DAY with HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of dollars of disposable income) and the PAC Cincinnati location (an area which also has THOUSANDS of visitors, commuters, shoppers, lawyers, etc. EVERY DAY and is within a short distance of DOZENS of other art galleries, art schools, and the like, etc.) before, so I won't bore the regulars by repeating. Comparing these two locations with Middletown is simply NOT apples-to-apples.

The most apropos comparison is Ashland, KY. Do you know anyone who has actually BEEN to PAC, Ashland??? I have…about two years ago…and I just did NOT see all of the development that others speak of, and goodness knows that, after PAC closed on that Friday evening, my wife and I desperately looked for somewhere to dine and perhaps have a few drinks. We gave up, settled for fast food, and went back to our motel. I might note that we had no trouble finding a park within fifty feet of PAC’s front door that Friday evening, and I didn’t even take the “handicapped” spot, though I am able to legally use one.

“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Voice of Reason View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 9:50pm
And Mike, you questioned the city's logic on PAC, which I think should rightfully be questioned, but this forum started out as being about Cincy State. 
 
Are we to assume that, based on what we know so far, you are of the mind that the city made a good move in that Cincy State deal?
"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 27 2010 at 9:47pm
Mike,
 
Yes, I agree it was wise to attach a string like that in the grant to Armco.  And I know of no such proviso in the current forgivable loan to PAC.  But if you think about it, having a forgivable loan is actually a better position for the city to be in than the deal offered to Armco.  If Mr. Verity's company had reached some certain employment level, and then he decided for whatever reason, to shut down the Middletown mill, the city would still, under the terms as you and I understand it, have had to give him the money. 
 
In the case of the PAC, the city can forgive it or it can simply hold the note for as long as it likes.  Is this forgivable loan simply a grant disguised as a loan--a wolf dressed in sheep's clothing, as it were?  I don't know.  But, combined with the Cincinnati State news, it seems possible that some semblance of a downtown revitalization might take place.  And spending the money (is it $400K or so?) to get something started downtown actually doesn't bother me when compared to the other ways that the city spends its money, since this will hopefully represent an investment in future tax receipts to the city rather than consumption on the city's part. 
 
What does this money (say it is $400K) buy us elsewhere in city services?  I guess for $400K we get about 4 firefighters for a year, we get some short street paved, or we get some grass cut.  In my opinion, it is well worth the risk to try to entice an institution with somewhat of a proven model (PACs in Cincinnati and Ashland, Ky, I believe) in order to spur some development.  After all, it isn't as though anyone is beating down the doors to invest in Middletown. 
 
In closing, I will say I am skeptical of things like this, that some dunce(s) on city council will be duped by some "investor" with grand plans for some enterprise in Middletown, but in this case there seems to have been some vetting and there is something of a proven track record of success.  Again, time will tell. 
"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Mike_Presta View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 26 2010 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by Voice of Reason Voice of Reason wrote:

... according to "True Steel" by Christy Borth, on or about the year 1900 Middletown city council agreed to give $25,000 to George Verity's American Rolling Mill Company if it agreed to locate in MIddletown, provided that the payroll reached some certain level ...
VOR:
Yes, I did read "True Steel" back in the late '60s.  Great book, in my humble opinion.
 
Yes, the "gift" to Mr. Verity paid off handsomely to the citizens, but did you notice the STRINGS that our early city leaders had the foresight to attach to that "gift"???  I must've missed any similar proviso attached to the "forgivable loan" to PAC.  Can you educate me, please???
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 10:05pm

Perhaps it was $75K; if so, consider the city's grant to be about $7,500,000 in today's dollars. 

"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote swohio75 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 9:52pm
I thought it was more like $75k.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voice of Reason Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 8:51pm
I am very suspicious of city council or any government agency giving grants, loans, or the like to private industry, but I might bring up the example of Armco--Mike, I think you might remember this:
 
I am pulling from my memory, which also isn't what it used to be, but as I remember it,  according to "True Steel" by Christy Borth, on or about the year 1900 Middletown city council agreed to give $25,000 to George Verity's American Rolling Mill Company if it agreed to locate in MIddletown, provided that the payroll reached some certain level (that level was either not mentioned in the book or it escapes me at present).  Now of course, $25,000 in the year 1900 is probably more like $2,500,000 in today's dollars, so it was a pretty sizable grant on the city's part.  I think it's safe to say that grant turned out pretty well for the city.  What would Middletown be today (or ever been) if Armco had not come here?
 
As I said, I am suspicious of governments giving grants or favorable loan terms to businesses, but isn't this just effectively a tax break on the city's part to entice a business to locate here?  And given that the business/entity will generate payroll taxes for the city coffers, isn't this just an investment in future tax receipts on the city's part?  When viewed in this context, grant money for business investment is about the best possible use of city funds, since it represents an investment in future cash flows back to the city, as opposed to simply paying city employees, which could be defined as "consumption" on the city's part.  This is assuming that the city makes prudent use of grant money, of course.  And if they give some vacant or nearly vacant buildings as enticement for Cincinnati State to come here then I think it's a no brainer that they should pursue this.  What is the true cost to the city? 
 
So I think it behooves all of you to not rush to judgment one way or another on this issue--it may turn out to be a great investment on the city's part.  Time will tell.
"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote spiderjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 25 2010 at 7:23am
The creative giveaways for this project will make the PAC look like very small potatoes.
Has considerably more up-side potential though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 24 2010 at 8:42pm
Originally posted by Vivian Moon Vivian Moon wrote:

...Sooo will the City give them a grant (gift) to sweeten the deal? ..
Vivian,
Why of course not!!! Are you crazy???  Our city does NOT give "grants"!!!  We cannot afford to give "grants".  It would be irresponsible for the city to give grants, especially with our worsening budget outlook.
 
We do, however, give "forgiveable loans" that never have to be repaid under ANY circumstances, but those are NOT "grants".  Big%20smile
“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hermes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2010 at 10:23am
I wouldn't consider what the city is doing as "bringing in business".
 
If no one has a job how will they spend money at these new "business" locations ?
 
People on section 8 and welfare,low income families are not going to culinary school or rent space in an art studio. People at city hall that are making $130,000 per year are either delusional or having some major grandiose thoughts or both.
No more democrats no more republicans,vote Constitution Party !!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TANGO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2010 at 8:33am
I do not agree with giving tax payers money or property to private business, other local communites are doing the same and offering money to get business in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vivian Moon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2010 at 6:20am
Mike
The Manchester Inn will be closing at the end of the year and I believe the City will move heaven and earth to keep this building from becoming vacant. (Nothing like looking out the 4th floor windows of City Hall on a big brown empty building) What a view!
After the give away deal we handed to PAC pray tell me why Cincy State wouldn't just sits back and wait for our desperate City to give them whatever deal they request. The new owners of the Manchester will need some big bucks to restore the building...Sooo will the City give them a grant (gift) to sweeten the deal?
While many thought the PAC deal was a great addition to the downtown it also tells outside investors the value of other real estate downtown.
However just last year the City paid over a $100,000 each for properties just down the street so they could demo them....hmmmm
So what is the real value of downtown real estate ?
Well Mike we shouldn't worry because PAC will be having their Grand Opening in about 30 days.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike_Presta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 23 2010 at 2:31am

This may be scuttlebutt, as I heard it at one of the local watering holes. But it came from a usually knowledgeable source, who didn’t realize that I was sitting in the next booth.

There was a good bit of noise, and as many of you know, my hearing is not “20/20”. Also, I was NOT trying to eavesdrop. However, here is what I am sure that I overheard:

The City plans to “give” (context?) the former Senior Citizen’s building, as well as other downtown property, to Cincinnati State Technical and Community College, for purposes in addition to the “culinary school“.

Other downtown structures were mentioned during the conversation, but I am not certain of the context. These may or may not have been in conjunction with Cincinnati State, but the entire part of the conversation that I overheard seemed to be about that subject, so I tend to think they were somehow connected.

There was a price paid for my clandestine activity. Since I was not giving full attention to the conversation at OUR table, I must have uttered one too many absent-minded “uh-huh” and somehow agreed to pick up the tab!!!  Unhappy

Now some of you may think that this will be a good thing (I’m talking about Cinci State, not my picking up the tab--me picking up the tab is always a good thing!!! LOL) others may not be so sure, but if I’m not mistaken didn’t the Middletown Art Center (MAC) have their eye on that former Senior Center building??? Bad luck for them!!! Oh well, we have Pendelton. We don’t need MAC so much anymore, do we???

“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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