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409 ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Mar 27 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1014 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: Apr 03 2011 at 10:53pm |
From the MJ:
A resident’s question prompts debate on council work sessionsElected officials are holding the informal, off-camera meetings once a month.By Jessica Heffner, Staff Writer 9:07 PM Sunday, April 3, 2011 MIDDLETOWN — Whether City Council’s new work session format is effective in getting the city’s business done is up for debate. Council is holding work sessions upstairs and off-camera before the first meeting of the month. Responding to a resident’s concerns about the new format, Councilman A.J. Smith wants to know what others think. At Smith’s District Dialogue meeting, resident Mike Presta said he felt the sessions limit access for the elderly and disabled by not being televised and make it seem the city has something to hide. “To me, it implies that there is something they are ashamed or afraid to discuss in front of the people,” Presta said. Smith said he agreed with Presta that the sessions should be televised. “My thing is it is an outlet we have provided for many years at the cost of taxpayers essentially and I think we should (record them) for the purpose of being completely transparent,” Smith said. City Council held its first work session in February. Time constraints forced staff to bump discussions on the city’s budget and the renewal of the public safety levy to future meetings. Opinions vary whether the sessions are effective or not. Councilwoman Anita Scott Jones agreed the sessions should be televised and said she would prefer to hold them in council chambers, which is equipped to accommodate those needs. Vice Mayor Bill Becker and Councilman Tom Allen said they both like the new format and would prefer to keep the work sessions upstairs to retain the informal setting. Both voiced no objections to the meetings being televised if TV Middletown has the capability. Becker said past councils used the work session as a way to have open dialogue about complex issues. He said he’d like members to give the format six months before making changes. “Personally I think you get more productive work out of council this way. You can spend more than a few minutes in discussion on an issue and more time for the regular meeting to run smoothly,” he said. Councilman Dan Picard said he has no preference to the format for the sessions, but felt there has been “no real benefit” to them so far. “I’ve not seen us do anything during those sessions that we couldn’t do at the regular meeting,” Picard said. “Let’s just go to chambers and do what we’ve been doing.” |
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Mike_Presta ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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Here is a file photo of the 2/08/2011 semi-secret meeting from a local newspaper:
This meeting was "open to the public"!!! Of course if more than a dozen or so members of the public showed up, apparently they would've had to clung to a window washer's scaffold outside and held stethoscopes to the glass!!!
![]() ![]() Seriously though, Mr. Becker, you are supposed to have "open dialogue" about ALL public issues in front of ALL of the citizens. You should feel free to spend all of the time "in discussion on an issue" that you feel is needed right there in the council chambers designed for that purpose and provided by the public for just that purpose!!!
Do you think that we spent our hard-earned tax dollars on council chambers solely for the purpose of photo ops, campaign posturing, and political presentations??? No...that is where the public's business is SUPPOSED to be discussed by the public's servants, their city council!!!
And what in the world do you mean: "if TV Middletown has the capability"??? All of the equipment and other "capability" necessary is right there, at the ready, in the very same city council chambers!!! How dare you move away from it and then act like it is someone else's shortcoming not to be at the ready???
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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And council members: What about "Transfer Options – Vacant Residential Lot on Main Street"???
There is nothing in the public's information workbook about THAT item!!! Is THAT something you will be having your "open dialogue" about in your semi-secret meeting Tuesday night???
Also, The City of Middletown official policy set by ordinance is to publicly bid the selling of property valued at over $5,000. Yet, just because someone on city staff deems it “unlikely that the property would sell for the appraised value” you folks are prepared to IGNORE that CITY ORDINANCE!!! Is this something that has been discussed in one of your semi-secret meetings??? And is the rumor true that there will no longer be city staff on certain boards and commissions because actions could be brought against the city and they could be perceived as not being objective??? Gee…do you think??? How about the rumor that anyone that does contracting work for the city and is on some boards could be in violation of Ohio ethics laws??? WOW!!! That thought never crossed my mind!!! Were these items discussed in some super-secret council meetings, or did someone on city staff just have a vision after a particularly moving yoga meditation???
Nah...I just can't see a thing wrong with you folks getting together and deciding as much stuff as possible in as near secret sessions as YOU deem desirable!!! After all, no matter what the LAW says, you deserve to construe Ohio's open meetings laws as NARROWLY as possible to suit yourselves, don't you??? |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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While I am on my soapbox about “OPEN MEETINGS”, please allow me to quote from the 2011 edition of “OHIO SUNSHINE LAWS, An Open Government Resource Manual” (Prepared by the Office of the Ohio Attorney General):
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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From the same manual noted above:
So, sorry folks, but your itsy-bitsy semi-secret conference rooms are, indeed, "too limited to accommodate all interested members of the public!!! Just check the BlipTV records of several of the past Council meetings, perhaps wherein the PAC issues were discussed or the HB5 letter of support (just to name two) and it is obvious that it is NOT UNUSUAL for crowds too large for your semi-secret conference rooms to accommodate to be expected!!! Either set up CCTV, or move the meetings back where they should be: to the "City Council Chambers"!!!
(Hey!!! It even is already NAMED properly!!!)
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Mike_Presta ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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By the way, these issues would be good reasons to axe the current Law Director; promote the Assistant L.D., and thereby get better legal advice and save the City a hundred G's or so in the process!!!
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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VietVet ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: May 15 2008 Status: Offline Points: 7008 |
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IMO, other than personnel issues, what would be the purpose of these meetings that couldn't be discussed in full view of the public ala regular city council meetings?
As Picard says.... Councilman Dan Picard said he has no preference to the format for the sessions, but felt there has been “no real benefit” to them so far. “I’ve not seen us do anything during those sessions that we couldn’t do at the regular meeting,” Picard said. “Let’s just go to chambers and do what we’ve been doing.” He's right. Council gets no added advantage in doing things this way. Proceed to council chambers and conduct the city's business in front of the people like you're suppose to do boys and girls It does smack of impropriety/secrecy. Not a violation of Sunshine because the public can attend, right? Still don't understand why they keep playing little childish playground games like "keep-away" with the public's business though. Lord. will we ever get some decent people to sit behind that council desk???? ![]() |
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Nick_Kidd ![]() MUSA Resident ![]() ![]() Joined: May 15 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 112 |
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Some of you do not understand why council wants to hold secret meetings and executive sessions. They do not want you to know about, nor record, their corruption, lack of honesty and integrity, and violations of law and our charter (our constitution). If I planned on being dishonest, I would want to hide the meetings from the public too. Anyone saying that it is awkward to discuss the people’s business in public, should have thought about what being a council member meant. A few thoughts about the last few years: 1. Remember when our crooks were caught recording conversations between prisoners and their attorneys? The conversations were illegally used in our kangaroo court to prosecute those prisoners. This was a conspiracy to commit many felonies (civil rights violations). This conspiracy involved the police dept. and jail (run by the police dept.), the law office, prosecutor, the court and others (in my opinion). No-one has been held responsible even though the city has been sued. We have heard of none of this because lawsuits can be discussed in executive sessions. But our council and administration keep it secret even after it should be made public. I believe that we are paying millions of dollars a year to settle these lawsuits (because our insurance won’t cover civil rights violations and if they went to court some of our “fine people in the city building” might end up in prison). Did you ever wonder why our so called “leaders” will stoop to any level to steal our money, have the highest taxes, red light cameras (with illegally short yellow light timing causing an entrapment situation), put anything (even if it is illegal) on our water bills, put minimum fines on the least thing and have either skimmed or stolen all or part of the money out of every fund the city has, yet refuse to repair our streets (unless you are willing to pay for them the third time or unless they can charge you $11,400 like they are going to do on Lefferson Road ), refuse to maintain our cemetery or repair the vault, refuse to maintain our parks or open our swimming pool, and on and on and on? Where does the money go? I believe much of it goes to these and many other lawsuits against the city and to pay the nearly 400 people that get a city paycheck. None of the promised cuts and they are still adding employees. But don’t forget that our city government always wants to reward failure and to keep the above mentioned felons making top dollar so they can live like kings while us tax payers have to pay off the mess they created. |
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Government is not the answer to problems, government is the problem.
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TonyB ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: Jan 12 2011 Location: Middletown, OH Status: Offline Points: 631 |
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Mr. Presta - thank you for keeping this topic in the forefront of discussion. You do this city a service by doing so.
Does anyone really care about this issue? Do our elected representatives believe the electorate no longer care whether they follow the law? Are they counting on our indifference and apathy to conduct the business of the people behind closed doors?
To our city council members: I don't believe this is what you had in mind when you wanted to have more informal discussions about subjects before the formal council meeting. IMO, what you aren't seeing here is that in the modern world, even the appearance of secrecy begets conspiracy. If you remember the WLW afternoon guy, Gary Burbank; he had a phrase called the "Geraldo Rivera" school of Journalism: "Your right to know supercedes your right to exist". When you're in the service of the public, their right to know supercedes any inconvenience of their servants. The fact that it is such an easy fix is even more disturbing. If you can't get the cameras upstairs, hold the meeting in chambers. End of controversy; no to more pressing matters for our city. Solve the problem or move over and let someone else do it.
NEXT!!!
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Mike_Presta ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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You are correct, TonyB. This is a classic case of City Council creating a problem, and then seeking a solution for it when there is no need for the problem to exist in the first place!!! At taxpayers’ expense, an actual “City Council chambers” (with all necessary equipment and technology necessary for recording and/or closed circuit broadcast) has been provided specifically for city council meetings. When an item is on the agenda that is of such interest that it may draw a crowd too large for that chamber, the chamber has been tailor-made and outfitted to allow closed circuit broadcast to other areas of city hall to accommodate such crowds, and even to simulcast the proceedings, via our taxpayer supported local access channel, to any television set anywhere connected to Time-Warner Cable’s Middletown service area!!! Council has created a problem by moving portions of their meetings out of their chambers and into small meeting rooms that cannot accommodate more than a few citizens, and with no taping or broadcast facilities. Council can solve this problem of their own creation by simply holding their meetings where they are supposed to hold their meetings!!! What could be simpler??? Unfortunately, this is typical of Middletown governance for at least the last thirteen years: They seem to stumble around with no real thought, going out of their way to create problems that need solutions. They then move at the speed of a wounded snail, endlessly pondering these problems before they arrive at expensive non-solutions that usually create more problems!!! It is unconscionable that they are actually considering ways to tape their semi-secret meetings in the small conference rooms!!! Instead of creating more problems and expense, all they need do is eliminate the problem that they created in the first place!!! Go back to holding their meetings in the chambers that were provided and outfitted for holding their meetings!!! |
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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spiderjohn ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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Didn't we go through this once before when Mr.Huseman was city manager?
Wasn't it decided to simply bring everything back to Council Chambers back then?
duh........
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Paul Nagy ![]() MUSA Citizen ![]() Joined: Jan 11 2009 Status: Offline Points: 384 |
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Nick,
Your observations here are more than serious. It certainly would answer a lot of questions we have all posed many times. Your comments are the most straightforward that I have seen and if any should invite an investigation and audit I think it would be on the basis you have established here. We have stated many times in the past that we didn't want to put anyone in jail because of their families. However, the harm that has been done to many, many other families may justify that measure. Especially since they won't stop their deceit. It would be so simple to use integrity and put everything on the table and be up front. I know people would tend to be more forgiving. One thing is for sure, corruption has always had a limit and eventually comes to an end. It might take a few years but it ends. It is coming here.
Thanks for the serious post.
Paul Nagy
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Voice of Reason ![]() MUSA Resident ![]() ![]() Joined: Oct 13 2010 Location: Williams Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Nick Kidd, Specifically to what dishonesty and by whom are you referring? Who are the felons? You have an active imagination, if not a clear mind. If you're wondering where the money goes, look no further than the city personnel costs (administration, police, fire--in sum it's pretty expensive). What is your source for concluding that "we" are paying "millions" of dollars to settle these alleged lawsuits? What is your source that the city is adding employees? While conspiracies are always fun and exciting to dream up, reality is far more mundane.
Paul, you seem sympathetic to Nick's sentiment--can you offer any additional insight or corroborating detail? Frankly, I'm highly skeptical that there is anything at all to this other than a person's active imagination at work with a lot time on his hands, but I'm willing to suspend disbelief if anyone can provide a substantiated source.
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"Ask not what your country can do for you..." JFK
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acclaro ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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VOR, I had intended(and still do) intend to limit my posts other than weighing in when a few venture into areas of discounting realities or offering 'smoke and mirror' answers to the massive dilemmas facing Middletown.
I am a huge John Grisham fan and agree there to be a valid case for seperating fact from fiction (and conspiracy), but this much we do know associated with Mr. Kidd's point:
Point 1) A laswsuit was filed against Middletown and the unsconstitutional practice of listening in on conversations privately held between an attorney and the city police, and its affect upon cases in the court, was not only an embarrassment but also a practice admitted, stopped, and under the command and knowledge from what I recall of then Police Chief Becker for many, many years. Any lawsuit involving money would be a civil matter and I have not bothered to track any case, if any, that was filed associated with this practice. I suspect a few cases were challenged on appeal for any information used at trial, and if I am not mistaken, Judge Powers, then a local attorney, was one of the most vocal about this unconstitutional and repugnant behavior.
I know multiple cases before the city began using an electronic docket entry many cases which appearances were made in civil cases, the city slammed default judgments through to get court costs when appearances were made, and were docketed, but removed, just for the court costs. I also know formal compalints to the Ohio Supreme Court have been filed by several (multiple parties) associated with this practice. Most call this this type of behavior a Banana Republic court system, choose your own meaning.
Who is adding employees? Well, undoubtedly the law department has, using funds associated with the .25% tax increase, the fire department, and several secretarial positions. The city has not stated it is going broke; rather, it has stated its projections are uite solid for 2011, in spite of the alarm sent out when they tried to get the 2.25% passed.
Finally, it appears the ruling on the vault and cenmetary maintenance was the city admitted it had put together an oversight committee and volunteers would be maintaining it, which it has a duty under Ohio statutes to do. In sum, your disagreemnt with Mr. Kidd seems to center then only on the point millions were spent on settling civil cases associated with the equivalent of wire tapping attorney cleint priviled conversations. The city has admitted it sets aside at least $75,000 annually to settle lawsuits. Your point then is the city did not pay $ Mm for the egregious act of breaking the law and constitutional federal rights of attorney client privilege? Probably true---the city did not pay $ Mm, I have no idea. Did the city do wrong? Yes, and it was considered quite a serious violation and crimianl convictions may have been reversed mased upon a case by case analysis.
That sir, is no conspiracy.
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Mike_Presta ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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With all due respect to Mr. Kidd and others, we are straying far afield from the subject of this thread. It is as simple as this: Some city council members, for reasons known only to themselves, seem to be uncomfortable discussing public business in full view of the public and prefer instead to try to finesse the Open Meetings Law by moving portions of the regular City Council meetings to venues other than City Council Chambers.
The solution is just as simple: Any council member unwilling to discuss public business in full view of the public should resign.
The Ohio Attorney General's office and case law is on my side!!! Who is on their side???
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Nick_Kidd ![]() MUSA Resident ![]() ![]() Joined: May 15 2009 Location: Middletown Status: Offline Points: 112 |
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Voice of Reason, you ask “Specifically to what dishonesty and by whom are you referring?” I thought I had made that clear in the first line under #1. “Remember when our crooks were caught recording conversations between prisoners and their attorneys?” I do not know whether you have not heard of these recordings or weather you do not believe that violating the constitutional attorney/client privilege is a crime? I thought that everyone that had their head out of the sand had heard about the illegal recordings. I noticed Spiderjohn mentioned them in another post. As to the who, I believe that anyone involved in asking that the recordings be made, making the recordings, giving the recordings to the prosecutor, using the illegally obtained information in our courts or allowing the use of these recordings are all responsible and should be prosecuted under the Rico statutes as organized crimes. I believe that violating someone’s constitutional rights is a felony, therefore anyone involved in intentionally committing a felony is a felon. This was not a small oversight or a minor mistake, this was a planned conspiracy to violate the attorney/client privilege and use illegally obtained information in the prosecution of people in our court. I may not have a clear mind, but this corruption doesn’t take the clearest mind to see. All you have to do is pull your head out of the sand. I agree that personnel cost eat up far too much money. The City has nearly 400 employees with police and firemen making up only about 164 of those employees. As for the source for the city adding employees, look in the paper’s want ads to see the ad for an Administrative Assistant for Public Works. Recently I thought the city added an assistant for Mr. Atkins. My source about the payoffs is based on the six figure check that the city sent to some attorneys handling some of these cases. (This came out in the paper before it got bottled up in executive session.) I also heard from reliable sources that there was many large lawsuits file against the city, especially by people that had been convicted using illegally obtained information and got jail time or large fines. With all of the attorneys involved, I don’t think we got off easy. But we will never know, because the city will pay rather than go to trial and it will all be hidden in their secret meetings. |
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Government is not the answer to problems, government is the problem.
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acclaro ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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I find Nick Kidd's closing argument quite convincing on all points. One would assume not only did the police and use the unconstitutional infomation, but the prosecutor (who resigned under 'emotional duress', and maybe the court. But, the fact it was discovered and admitted, is a vioaltion of trust, fair play, and an equitable judicial system. Cases get thrown out routinely for violating Miranda Act. Listening in to attorney/ client information is an affront on the adversarial nature of the court system and fair play. Simple as that.
To Mike Presta's main point. A no brainer. If you don't feel discussing issues in front of a camera, and are cloaked in secrecy, join the Masons, Skull and Bones (if you can get into Yale, and DON'T accept a position on council. Isn't that what the Sunshine Laws are about? I have stated it before. If the court system can handle a camera, and witnesses can survive them while testifying, I think city council can handle the 'discomfort' of seeing the bad angle of a receding hair line, or need to wear Oakley's or Rayban's for the glare of the light, "Sunshine" means let their be light---otherwise known as open transparency.
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Mike_Presta ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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All that I am asking is that City Council meetings be held in City Council Chambers!!!
Not exactly a call for revolution, a statement of rebellion, nor even a negative viewpoint, is it???
Anyone who could not have foreseen this as a requirement of the office could easily be deemed not to have the common sense (nor even the minimum level of sanity) required to hold the position!!!
The question remains: Are there things they are saying in these work sessions that they are afraid or ashamed of saying in front of the public in Council chambers with the TV cameras rolling???
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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Richard Saunders ![]() MUSA Resident ![]() Joined: Jun 30 2010 Status: Offline Points: 232 |
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Mr. Presta has made a strong case. I would paraphrase our mayor Lawrence Mulligan’s statement from his recent State of the City Address: “I tell those council members who will not discuss city business in City Council Chambers to pack their briefcases and leave.” |
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spiderjohn ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jul 01 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2749 |
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good one rick
vor--I was told that the litigations over the illegal jailhouse tapings are not over and on-going.
and at a pretty steep cost, which is also on-going
is that true?
dunno--probably
do u know otherwise?
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acclaro ![]() Prominent MUSA Citizen ![]() ![]() Joined: Jul 01 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1878 |
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Sj, knowing you were on the Police Board/ Committee, you undoubtedly have credible insight. I had really forgotten about this until you did a nice job of summarizing some occurrences with council members in the past. After letting this digest overnight, its truly staggering. Think about it. We have on council, and voted upon, a police chief that was involved in this rather serious incident. From my recollection, it wasn't as if someone accidently crossed the lines and just happended to stumble upon attorney client conversations. They call it 'privileged' for a reason, it gives protevtion and immunity for disclosure so allow truthful and open exchanges. This was truly mind boggling when you think about it, and we then put the chief in place to act as city manager, then city council and now he's in Warrent Cty. Do ethics mean anything anymore?
Now, the upstairs meeting. Good lord, its too much of a burden or council to come downstairs, and too easy to be upstairs where it is cozy and comfortable, to avoid open airing of events. My reptitive saga continues, but how, why, and when will this stop in Middletown? How many cities would tolerate this behavior and not been upset? Middletown just turns an eye, thinks its nothing, and its business as usual for the parties involved. Really an ecellent pt spider. Why bash AJ Smith for having a few beers abd his confusion as to who was picking up the tab, when the activities are very serious, and they just keep on ticking, move on to new positions, not miss a beat, and no one gives pause to what occurred.
Same with the meetings upstairs. Huseman did say they needed to be open and the equioment is there. We accept statements they don't like to be inconvenienced to be in front of the camera? There is too much in Middletown simply accepted and tolerated. What would Carlise have done? Probably had a few in prisonor never working in public sector again.
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Mike_Presta ![]() MUSA Council ![]() ![]() Joined: Apr 20 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3483 |
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From the recent newspaper article:
“Open dialogue”, Mr. Becker??? “Open” to whom??? Certainly not to the elderly, or to the infirm, or to second shift workers!!! No, Mr. Becker, your semi-secret work sessions are certainly NOT open to any of the thousands of Middletonians who find it difficult or impossible to get to Donham Plaza by 5:30 on the first Tuesday evening of every month, but who cares about them, correct??? It is only their business being discussed and their money being spent!!!
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“Mulligan said he ... doesn’t believe they necessarily make the return on investment necessary to keep funding them.” …The Middletown Journal, January 30, 2012
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