A 6th grader

Squeemy,

Med:

"There is no one solution for everyone". AGREE, BUT SWATS (OR THE THREAT OF SWATS) SEEMED TO WORK FOR THE MAJORITY.

Med:

"Swats will deter some, but not all. Some kids get beat on a daily basis at home for things far less than a fight. Do you these kids are afraid of a few swats?"

NOPE, BUT I WILL, ONCE AGAIN, SUGGEST THAT THE ONES WHO WON'T STRAIGHTEN UP AFTER A FEW SWATS, AND ARE REPEAT OFFENDERS, GET ASSIGNED TOUGH LOVE BOOT CAMP AT THE PRISON, ASSIGNED THROUGH THE COURTS. SAW SOME PROGRAMS ON THIS WITH THE KIDS COMING INTO PRISON WITH THAT "I'LL WHIP THE WORLD" LOOK ON THEIR FACE AND AFTER A FEW DAYS (HOURS), THE HARD CORE PRISONERS HAVE THEM CRYING AND WANTING MOMMA. PERHAPS THAT'S THE SOLUTION FOR THE MOST HARDCORE.   

Med:

"I'm not saying I am opposed to the idea. I just don't buy that it is a deterrent. Some kids are going to cause trouble. Fact of life."

ALRIGHT MED, WHAT WOULD BE YOUR SUGGESTION FOR THE DETERRENT? OBVIOUSLY THE CURRENT WAY OF DISCIPLINE IS NOT WORKING. I BELIEVE THE PADDLING IN THE OLD DAYS WORKED, BUT IF YOU DISAGREE, WHAT WOULD YOU DO NOWADAYS TO DISCIPLINE THE TROUBLE KIDS? I WOULD LIKE TO SEE CORPORAL PUNISHMENT RETURN, INCLUDING A "TOUGH LOVE" PROGRAM IN COOPERATION WITH THE PRISONS FOR REPEAT OFFENDERS. SOME HAVE SUGGESTED WE CREATE A SEPARATE SCHOOL FOR THE TROUBLEMAKERS TO ISOLATE THEM FROM THE OTHERS. MIGHT NOT BE A BAD IDEA. I STILL ADVOCATE THE HARD LINE APPROACH. SINCE SOME PARENTS CHOOSE NOT TO GET INVOLVED WITH THEIR KID'S BEHAVIORAL ISSUES, I GUESS SOCIETY HAS TO TAKE OVER SINCE WE CAN'T HAVE A FEW RUIN IT FOR THE MAJORITY. BOTTOM LINE......WHAT METHOD WOULD BE MOST EFFECTIVE TO ELIMINATE THE TROUBLEMAKERS?

BY THE WAY, PERHAPS KNEPSHIELD DIDN'T SWING THE PADDLE HARD ENOUGH TO LEAVE A LASTING IMPRESSION.

rngrmed wrote: There were no school fights in 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's when the schools had corporal punishment?

Don't know about the 30's and 40's. Before my time. Yep, there were fights. Usually off school grounds after school. Didn't see any at Wilson Elementary in the middle to late 50's. 6th graders didn't pick too many fights. Saw some in the early 60's at Roosevelt Jr. High, but none at Middletown High (now old Vail downtown). They were dealt with by the Dean of Boys/Girls at the school using physical punishment (at least through the 60's) The parents supported this. Very few repeat offenders. Schools didn't have "Resource Officers" then. Kids were put in line out in the hallways with a teacher as a witness. Some were also put in line when they got home by dad. Can't vouch for what happened after I exited the system. Just know that the schools have adopted an approach that has led us to what we see today.

Journal Police briefs- 11/22/2012....

Three Middletown High School students — two girls and one boy — were charged after a fight escalated in the hallways and a staff member was injured. When John Landers tried to break up the fight between two female students, he hit his arm and wrist on the metal lockers and he was treated by a school nurse. One girl was charged with felonious assault, assault, and disorderly conduct; another was charged with assault and disorderly conduct; and a male student was charged with disorderly conduct because of his cussing and interference with school officials.

STILL THINK THERE IS NO NEED FOR CORPORAL PUNISHMENT IN THE SCHOOLS? STILL THINK THAT KINDER/GENTLER STILL WORKS? WHEN WILL IT BE TIME TO CRACK DOWN HARD ON THESE LITTLE OUT OF CONTROL "DARLINGS"? WHEN WILL THE SCHOOLS TAKE CHARGE AND ACTUALLY DEAL OUT SOME "PAIN" INSTEAD OF THE OLD WRIST SLAPPING METHODS THAT NEVER WORK? WHY DO THE SCHOOL PEOPLE, THE COPS AND JUDGES IN THE COURT SYSTEM CODDLE THESE KIDS? SEND THEM AWAY TO A "TOUGH LOVE" PROGRAM IN THE PRISON SYSTEM. GET 'EM AWAY FROM THE OTHERS AND BREAK 'EM DOWN.

Pacman, thank you. My reference to the Journal article on the district's approach to discipline was an indirect response to your earlier post. My point in mentioning the cost of sending students to alternative schools was not to say the schools won't take action on discipline if it costs money; as is obvious from the article we have been addressing the situation. My point was that the student remains the responsibility of the district; we cannot "get rid of" a problem student by expelling him/her.

Vet, apology accepted. And I agree the program needs to continue to show results. We expect that it will because it is phased in over 3 years. We have already seen a drop in suspensions 1st quarter this school year compared to 1st quarter last year.

Marcia Andrew wrote: I find it interesting that none of the news hounds on this site posted the story in yesterday's Journal about the Positive Behavioral Support program that Middletown schools have adopted. [I couldn't figure out how to link to it.]   The article reports on this new, comprehensive approach to discipline and behavior that Middletown schools began to put in place last school year. After just the first year of the program, suspensions and expulsions were dramatically down while teachers reported (on anonymous surveyss) that their morale and positive school climate was up.   MCSD are making progress in this area using this consistent approach.

My apologies Ms. Andrew. Let me be the first, as a major "criticizer" of your district, to congratulate you and your school district for accomplishing a dramatic reduction in the behavioral issues from one year to the next. Nice job, as the data supports. You must forgive me if I remain a little skeptical as it is just the first year of implementation. Several years in a row of improvement might garner a more confident response from some. Let's see how we do in the future.

It's also interesting that Ms. Andrew did not comment on the posts of Vet and others with regard to the state report card and the fact that MCSD dropped in the number of indicators met.  I'm sure that report card was a mixed bag of results so your input on it would be welcome Ms. Andrew.

rngrmed:

"I find it funny how Vet doesn't want the Gov't telling him he needs to wear a seat belt, etc. but wants the Gov't to step in with this kid."

TWO VERY DIFFERENT SCENARIOS MED, IMO. BY ME NOT WEARING MY SEATBELT, I'M PUTTING ONLY MYSELF IN HARMS WAY. DOESN'T MEAN A PINCH OF CRAP TO OTHER DRIVERS WHETHER I'M OUT THERE DRIVING WITH A BELT ON OR NOT. IF I FLY OUT OF THE CAR OR GO THROUGH THE WINDSHIELD, I DOUBT IT WILL AFFECT THEM AT THE SCENE OF THE ACCIDENT. MY ACTIONS ARE ON ME AND WILL AFFECT ME ONLY.

WITH THIS KID CURRENTLY HAVING NO DETERRENT IN THE SCHOOLS TO KEEP HIM IN LINE, HE LAUGHS AT THE SYSTEM, THINKS HE CAN DO ANYTHING HE PLEASES INCLUDING DISRUPTING THE CLASS, DENYING OTHERS THEIR RIGHT TO AN EDUCATION AND AFFECTS MANY WITH HIS ACTIONS. THE CURRENT WAY OF HANDLING DISRUPTIVE BEHAVIOR ISN'T CUTTING IT. TIME TO TRY SOMETHING ELSE A LITTLE STRONGER THAN "KINDER/GENTLER" HAND SLAPPING.

"As far as putting his dad's job in jeopardy? Why? In this economy?"

THE DAD WOULD HAVE MADE THE CHOICE TO PLACE HIS JOB IN JEOPARDY BY NOT COMPLYING WITH THE SCHOOL'S WISHES OF PICKING UP HIS KID IN A TIMELY MANNER. THIS DAD NEVER SHOWED UP AT ALL. STILL WANNA COTTLE HIM A LITTLE MORE BY NOT INFLICTING ANY CONSEQUENCES AT ALL? HOW'S THE DAD GONNA LEARN ANY RESPONSIBILITY UNLESS YOU HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE IF HE CHOOSES THE WRONG APPROACH OR IGNORES THE PROBLEM ALTOGETHER? SOMETIME IN LIFE, A PERSON SHOULD HAVE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR LIFE'S LITTLE DECISIONS. IF THE JOB AND LIVELIHOOD ARE THREATENED, PERHAPS THAT WILL GET HIS ATTENTION. TO DATE, APPARENTLY NOTHING ELSE HAS. AGAIN, AFTER AWHILE, IT'S TIME TO DROP THE KINDER/GENTLER WITH A STRONGER MESSAGE. MULTIPLE CHANCES AND FORGIVENESS ONLY LAST SO LONG.

"Where is mom? Grandparents? Maybe the child is not the "community's" responsibility, but he does have a family that could step up and help out"

IF THE FAMILY DOESN'T WANT TO TAKE ACTION, THE COMMUNITY MUST DEAL WITH THE KID AS HE IS DISRUPTING THE PROGRAM OF EDUCATING THE OTHERS.THE COMMUNITY HAS AN OBLIGATION TO ASSURE THE EDUCATION OF ALL KIDS BY FURNISHING A SUITABLE ENVIRONMENT INCLUDING BEHAVIOR. YOU DON'T SACRIFICE THE MAJORITY BECAUSE ONE WANTS TO PLAY THE UNCOOPERATIVE ROUTE. THE PARENT MUST REMOVE THE PROBLEM UNTIL THE PROBLEM CAN BE PART OF THE SOLUTION AGAIN. IF THE DAD DOESN'T WANT TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY, MAYBE WE OUGHT TO HAUL THE WHOLE FAMILY IN FOR A SESSION ON EXPECTATIONS CONCERNING JUNIORS BEHAVIOR.

JMO

squeemy:

"Indeed V V - there are those that are selected to achieve but most are cast aside"

AGREE. AND NOWHERE IS THIS MORE DEMONSTRATED THAN P&G, OUR FORMER EMPLOYER. DEFINITE SELECTION PROCESS ON WHO IS PREDETERMINED TO SUCCEED AND WHO ISN'T. IF ONE OF THE UPPER MANAGEMENT TAKES A LIKING TO YOU, YOU CAN DO NO WRONG AND HAVE A CAREER PATH CHARTED FOR YOU. IF NOT, YOU LANGUISH DOWN IN THE PITS OF MEDIOCRITY....JUST A FACE IN THE CROWD. WORSE YET, SOME ARE TARGETED FOR REPLACEMENT BECAUSE THEY MIGHT BE VIEWED AS "TOO REBELLIOUS" OR NOT ABLE TO BE "PROCTERIZED". HAPPENED TO BOTH MY WIFE AFTER 15 YEARS AND ME AFTER 10 YEARS. GONE. NOW, THERE ARE 5700 P&G TECH CENTER EMPLOYEES THAT WILL MEET A SIMILAR FATE SOON. EVERY TEN YEARS IS THE CLEANOUT AT P&G. .....AND THERE IS A CLIMATE DURING THESE TIMES WITHIN EACH P&G FACILITY OF FEAR FOR THEIR JOBS. A TERRIBLE WAY TO COME IN TO WORK EACH DAY.

squeemy:

"It might help to think of K-12 as an industrial process - the mass production of minds to fill a need"

GOTTA KEEP THE PIPELINE OF TALENT SUPPLIED TO KEEP THE WHEELS OF CORPORATE AMERICA GREASED.

squeemy:

"Everyone is forced (compulsory schooling) into the funnel at the top and is squeezed through an ever narrowing set of constraints until the few are selected and extracted for "leadership" - defined as how well they follow"

YEP. SEE THE FIRST SECTION ABOVE.

squeemy:

"If an individual is conditioned to believe from an early age that their capacity to create value depends on the needs of a state institution, like school, then it stands to reason that their capacity to find value in themselves diminishes".

AN INDIVIDUALS SELF WORTH IS DETERMINED BY MORE THAN SCHOOLS AND INSTITUTIONS. IT IS ALSO INFLUENCED BY LIFE'S DECISIONS, WHAT LIFE THROWS AT THEM AS TO EASE OR DIFFICULTY (DEALING WITH THE HIGHS AND LOWS OF LIFE), ACCOMPLISHMENTS, THE PARENTS INFLUENCE, TEACHINGS, VALUES, ENCOURAGEMENT, POSITIVE RE-ENFORCEMENT AND MOTIVATIONAL INFLUENCE. WHAT IS BUILT WITHIN THE INDIVIDUAL DETERMINES THEIR INNER CAPACITY TO MAINTAIN SELF VALUE AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO COME FROM INSTITUTIONS.

squeemy:

"It also served the needs of the American military for schools to supply a steady stream of people whose self worth was subordinate to the authority of others".

THE MILITARY HAS HAD SOME AWFULLY SMART, SELF-CONFIDENT, TOP-NOTCH STUDENTS WITHIN THEIR RANKS. HARDLY LACKING IN SELF WORTH AND MOST GRADED AS CONFIDENT. WHEN YOU INITIALLY GO IN THE MILITARY RIGHT OUT OF WEST POINT OR THE NAVAL ACADEMY (SCHOOLS), OR JOIN A COMPANY RIGHT OUT OF COLLEGE (SCHOOL), YOU MUST ACT IN A SUBORDINATE MANNER. YOU DO THIS ALL THE WAY THROUGH YOUR CAREER TO SOME DEGREE. EVEN THE TOP DOG, THE CEO OF THE COMPANY, ANSWERS TO AND IS A SUBORDINATE TO THE MAJOR STOCKHOLDERS, WHO CAN DISMISS HIM (HER) AT ANY TIME. UNLESS YOU OWN THE COMPANY, YOU WILL ALWAYS BE SUBORDINATE (YES AND COMPLIANT AND OBEDIENT) TO SOMEONE. YOU CAN HAVE A SENSE OF SELF WORTH AND STILL BE AN OBEDIENT AND COMPLIANT SUBORDINATE, CAN'T YOU?

squeemy:

"I'm convinced that after generations of enduring the vacuous, demeaning, soul- stripping process called American K-12 Education that we now have multiple generations of people who cannot recognize true value in themselves or others".

WOULDN'T WORRY TOO MUCH ABOUT THAT. PROBABLY MILLIONS OF PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE K-12 SYSTEM THAT HAVE A BOATLOAD OF SELF WORTH, FUNCTIONING JUST FINE, ARE VERY SUCCESSFUL AND FEELING DAMN GOOD ABOUT THEMSELVES AND WHERE THEY ARE IN LIFE. ALL JMO.